Erudite is a shitty class

[The Lurker]

OK, I know all you like to masturbate all over Erudite as an awesome class.

Stop.

It's a shitty class, and you're a stupid person for believing it's a good class.

Argument A: It rapes the game at high levels using spell to power variant and arcane fusion shenanigans to get around the limited unique powers per day.
Well, you're right.  It does rape the game with greater arcane fusion.  Guess why we don't care?  Sorcerers do the same thing.  The psion is slightly better than a sorcerer using arcane fusion, but still not tossing out top level effects like a wizard to actually be winning at life.  Yes, the Erudite gets more powers to pick from.  No, we don't actually care because you picked the best ones first anyways.

Argument B: You guys don't have an argument B.

Now for my version...
Make a wilder.  Give him psychic reformation as a power known.  With the educated wilder variant (same set of articles), the wilder effectively has more powers known than an equal level Erudite.

Again, there's the "But the Erudite can change his powers every day!" argument.  Again, we don't care because you pick the good powers known first.  Spell to power variant is again a point in favor of the Erudite, but actual casting classes do those better (because they get arcane/divine power creep to supplement their spells with arcane/divine only feats and PrCs).

That's pretty much it.  You're all idiots for thinking that being able to use greater arcane fusion every round at high levels with a wide selection of spells known makes you good.  It's something every sorcerer can do, and we don't give a shit because you're using a spell half as effective of what you're paying for (spells double in power every level just about).  And if you try to talk about versatility, you're lying out your ass.  Wilders get more powers to use in a day (again, with psychic reformation we don't care about being able to do it "Right then" because if you needed a very specific power to win a combat you fail at building characters) and actual psions have FOUR TIMES AS MANY POWERS.  If you pick 75% of your powers wrong as a psion, you're still better than an Erudite.

Furthermore: Erudites can't take more psionic PrC levels than they have levels in Erudite without losing the ability to learn more powers.  Another con for Erudite.


Now, here's what Erudite is BETTER for than psion:
It gets psicrystal affinity as well as another psionic bonus feat at first level.  It's better as a dip class for "The big guy is with me".

The next time someone recommends Erudite (even with spell to power), they should know that they are Doing It Wrong(TM).  Seriously, guys.  You're supposed to be some of the best optimizers from 339 and you can't see a shitty class when you see one?  If you wanted to use powers, you're stronger using a fucking psion.  If you wanted to cast spells, then Erudite is just plain weaker.  Don't be a tard.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Your tone indicates that you're either posting drunk, or not willing to engage in a civil discussion.

Either way, it pushes me towards disagreeing with you regardless of your points.  Psionics isn't exactly my game, but I'd suggest that, from the standpoint of trying to effectively convince people, that you keep it toned down.

Vulgarity is the first resort of the ill-educated.

[The Lurker]

Your tone indicates that you're either posting drunk, or not willing to engage in a civil discussion.

Either way, it pushes me towards disagreeing with you regardless of your points.  Psionics isn't exactly my game, but I'd suggest that, from the standpoint of trying to effectively convince people, that you keep it toned down.

Vulgarity is the first resort of the ill-educated.

"Be nicer" isn't an argument.  Someone asked me to explain to them why Erudite is a shitty class, and I figured it'd be better to just make my own thread than derail that one further.

And if you don't know what you're talking about, do some research and come back to me when you do.  Only people that are actually informed should be posting in a discussion.

[dark_hound]

"Be nicer" isn't an argument.  Someone asked me to explain to them why Erudite is a shitty class, and I figured it'd be better to just make my own thread than derail that one further.

And if you don't know what you're talking about, do some research and come back to me when you do.  Only people that are actually informed should be posting in a discussion.

Being the person that asked you, I should tell that I like thread derails.  They make me laugh, the farther away the topic goes the more I look at it, like a train wreck.

[Sinfire Titan]

The Sorcerer may be able to make very effective use out of Arcane Fusion, but it can't combine spells and powers with it. The Erudite is able to manifest a single Arcane Fusion to get both Divine Power and Righteous Might as a Standard action, and can still use his Swift action efficiently. He does this at the cost of a PsiCrystal. The Sorcerer needs Arcane Disciple, 3 spells known from 3 different spell levels, and a Wis of 15 to use this ability (he needs to be able to cast the spells he is trying to Fuse, after all).

Name another class that can use a single 8th level slot to cast Divine, Arcane, and Psionic abilities simultaneously. And then still have room for Quickened/Schismed Psionic Powers.

If the Erudite wants to, he can use Schism to get 2 Arcane Fusions off/round (one is weaker than the first, but small price to pay). And he can still use Quickened Powers. He also has access to 9th level Psionic powers, 8th level Arcane spells, and 7th level Divine spells.

This kind of versatility is unmatched by Tier 2. Hell, the Artificer is the only thing that comes close to this, and even then it can't abuse the action economy like this without paying massive amounts of cash and time crafting the items in question. The Erudite pays a flat 400 XP/spell or power and a single 1st level feat, at most.

The limited number of powers/day is a bitch, but Arcane Fusion is able to bypass that. Linked Power can do this too, but that's tedious and less cost-efficient.

The Psion can't do this unless the Erudite is able to take Spell to Power, and even then he doesn't have the sheer number of options that the Erudite has access to. The Psion can indeed pull this off, but he won't be able to use Arcane or Divine spells with it. That's the deal-breaker.



I do agree that it is a poorly designed class. I just don't think it is utter shit for an entire 20 levels.

[The Lurker]

The Sorcerer may be able to make very effective use out of Arcane Fusion, but it can't combine spells and powers with it. The Erudite is able to manifest a single Arcane Fusion to get both Divine Power and Righteous Might as a Standard action, and can still use his Swift action efficiently. He does this at the cost of a PsiCrystal. The Sorcerer needs Arcane Disciple, 3 spells known from 3 different spell levels, and a Wis of 15 to use this ability (he needs to be able to cast the spells he is trying to Fuse, after all).

1) Erudite is limited to arcane spells.  If you can get divine power and righteous might as arcane spells (which you have to do in order for the erudite to do it), then the sorcerer can do it.  And the sorcerer, DOESN'T need arcane disciple.  He needs a fucking runestaff and that's it.

Name another class that can use a single 8th level slot to cast Divine, Arcane, and Psionic abilities simultaneously. And then still have room for Quickened/Schismed Psionic Powers.

You don't get divine.  And Psionics doesn't get shapechange, so schism isn't even as good (chronotyryns are better than schism).

So, archivist beats out erudite so far with little effort.

If the Erudite wants to, he can use Schism to get 2 Arcane Fusions off/round (one is weaker than the first, but small price to pay). And he can still use Quickened Powers. He also has access to 9th level Psionic powers, 8th level Arcane spells, and 7th level Divine spells.

Who cares?  A Sorcerer can shapechange into a chronotyryn, do the same then, and then have his familiar toss of a couple more spells (swift action wands+imbue familiar with spell ability).

Again, erudites don't get divine spells.  At all.

This kind of versatility is unmatched by Tier 2. Hell, the Artificer is the only thing that comes close to this, and even then it can't abuse the action economy like this without paying massive amounts of cash and time crafting the items in question. The Erudite pays a flat 400 XP/spell or power and a single 1st level feat, at most.

It pays sucking as a class for at LEAST the first 8 levels.  And that's being generous.

The limited number of powers/day is a bitch, but Arcane Fusion is able to bypass that. Linked Power can do this too, but that's tedious and less cost-efficient.

Again, who gives a shit?  You're not tossing out level appropriate effects.

The Psion can't do this unless the Erudite is able to take Spell to Power, and even then he doesn't have the sheer number of options that the Erudite has access to. The Psion can indeed pull this off, but he won't be able to use Arcane or Divine spells with it. That's the deal-breaker.

Wrong again.  Erudites DON'T get divine spells.  At all.  And shitty options don't count.  Erudite doesn't fucking matter until you're at your fifth best power known at that level.

And if you need the power that much, you can buy a fucking dorje or power stone.

I do agree that it is a poorly designed class. I just don't think it is utter shit for an entire 20 levels.

No, it's playable toward the end, but people keep suggesting it for low levels like 1 and 3.  That makes people's games worse and is a bad thing.

Honestly, I don't really mind if you suggest it for starting at level 20.  Just know that you might as well suggest sorcerer or wizard or archivist and be making a better suggestion.

[Bastian]

The Psion can't do this unless the Erudite is able to take Spell to Power, and even then he doesn't have the sheer number of options that the Erudite has access to. The Psion can indeed pull this off, but he won't be able to use Arcane or Divine spells with it. That's the deal-breaker.

Wrong again.  Erudites DON'T get divine spells.  At all.  And shitty options don't count.  Erudite doesn't fucking matter until you're at your fifth best power known at that level.

And if you need the power that much, you can buy a fucking dorje or power stone.

You need to do a little research before you start being obnoxious. Dragon #349 put divine spells into the realm of psionics.

[Optimator]

Reminds me of Ubernoob...

[The Lurker]

The Psion can't do this unless the Erudite is able to take Spell to Power, and even then he doesn't have the sheer number of options that the Erudite has access to. The Psion can indeed pull this off, but he won't be able to use Arcane or Divine spells with it. That's the deal-breaker.

Wrong again.  Erudites DON'T get divine spells.  At all.  And shitty options don't count.  Erudite doesn't fucking matter until you're at your fifth best power known at that level.

And if you need the power that much, you can buy a fucking dorje or power stone.

You need to do a little research before you start being obnoxious. Dragon #349 put divine spells into the realm of psionics.

And how many games allow dragon magazine again?

[Negative Zero]

Whenever the third line of the topic contains the phrase "you're a stupid person", it is unreasonable to expect anything better as a response.

Regardless, part of what makes Wizards a higher tier than Sorcerers is that they can take the generally good powers such as Evard's Black Tentacles, but they can also afford to take such spells as Fabricate or Knock that a Sorcerer couldn't afford to waste a Spell Known on. An Erudite can do this, not only with all psionic powers, but with all arcane spells. This includes the Sor/Wiz list, naturally, but also contains some otherwise obscure spells from other arcane lists (particularly, Body Outside Body, which by RAW doesn't preclude the clones from also using psionics).

Even though Wizards can afford to take spells like Knock, they have to choose to prepare them, else having access to the spell does not actually do anything. An Erudite, on the other hand, can use Knock any time he encounters a locked door, via Arcane Fusion. He can learn spells that are so situational to be otherwise useless, and still have them on-hand whenever they might be needed. So the murder happened in this spot, approximately six hours ago? Well that's fine, I got Hindsight from a Bard a few weeks back, I'll just Arcane Fusion a Hindsight and watch the murder take place.

The Spell-to-Power Erudite with Arcane Fusion is the closest thing we have to a spellcaster that uses all the spell lists and casts spontaneously from them. The cost of learning a new power (or spell) is so negligible that the Erudite can generally learn as many powers as he has time for.

The Sorcerer may be able to make very effective use out of Arcane Fusion, but it can't combine spells and powers with it. The Erudite is able to manifest a single Arcane Fusion to get both Divine Power and Righteous Might as a Standard action, and can still use his Swift action efficiently. He does this at the cost of a PsiCrystal. The Sorcerer needs Arcane Disciple, 3 spells known from 3 different spell levels, and a Wis of 15 to use this ability (he needs to be able to cast the spells he is trying to Fuse, after all).

1) Erudite is limited to arcane spells.  If you can get divine power and righteous might as arcane spells (which you have to do in order for the erudite to do it), then the sorcerer can do it.  And the sorcerer, DOESN'T need arcane disciple.  He needs a fucking runestaff and that's it.

The Erudite gets any arcane spells. The Sorcerer gets Sorcerer spells. The Erudite can get spells from Geomancers and other classes that get divine spells as arcane spells.

[The Lurker]

[spoiler]
Whenever the third line of the topic contains the phrase "you're a stupid person", it is unreasonable to expect anything better as a response.

Regardless, part of what makes Wizards a higher tier than Sorcerers is that they can take the generally good powers such as Evard's Black Tentacles, but they can also afford to take such spells as Fabricate or Knock that a Sorcerer couldn't afford to waste a Spell Known on. An Erudite can do this, not only with all psionic powers, but with all arcane spells. This includes the Sor/Wiz list, naturally, but also contains some otherwise obscure spells from other arcane lists (particularly, Body Outside Body, which by RAW doesn't preclude the clones from also using psionics).

Even though Wizards can afford to take spells like Knock, they have to choose to prepare them, else having access to the spell does not actually do anything. An Erudite, on the other hand, can use Knock any time he encounters a locked door, via Arcane Fusion. He can learn spells that are so situational to be otherwise useless, and still have them on-hand whenever they might be needed. So the murder happened in this spot, approximately six hours ago? Well that's fine, I got Hindsight from a Bard a few weeks back, I'll just Arcane Fusion a Hindsight and watch the murder take place.

The Spell-to-Power Erudite with Arcane Fusion is the closest thing we have to a spellcaster that uses all the spell lists and casts spontaneously from them. The cost of learning a new power (or spell) is so negligible that the Erudite can generally learn as many powers as he has time for.

The Sorcerer may be able to make very effective use out of Arcane Fusion, but it can't combine spells and powers with it. The Erudite is able to manifest a single Arcane Fusion to get both Divine Power and Righteous Might as a Standard action, and can still use his Swift action efficiently. He does this at the cost of a PsiCrystal. The Sorcerer needs Arcane Disciple, 3 spells known from 3 different spell levels, and a Wis of 15 to use this ability (he needs to be able to cast the spells he is trying to Fuse, after all).

1) Erudite is limited to arcane spells.  If you can get divine power and righteous might as arcane spells (which you have to do in order for the erudite to do it), then the sorcerer can do it.  And the sorcerer, DOESN'T need arcane disciple.  He needs a fucking runestaff and that's it.

The Erudite gets any arcane spells. The Sorcerer gets Sorcerer spells. The Erudite can get spells from Geomancers and other classes that get divine spells as arcane spells. [/spoiler]

I've addressed using knock already, so that argument is moot.

And if we're getting into geomancers and such...
Oh my god!  More runestaffs!

[Gr1lledcheese]

This should really be in the Bitch Like Anyone Gives A DamnYou Have To forum

[Negative Zero]

[spoiler]
Whenever the third line of the topic contains the phrase "you're a stupid person", it is unreasonable to expect anything better as a response.

Regardless, part of what makes Wizards a higher tier than Sorcerers is that they can take the generally good powers such as Evard's Black Tentacles, but they can also afford to take such spells as Fabricate or Knock that a Sorcerer couldn't afford to waste a Spell Known on. An Erudite can do this, not only with all psionic powers, but with all arcane spells. This includes the Sor/Wiz list, naturally, but also contains some otherwise obscure spells from other arcane lists (particularly, Body Outside Body, which by RAW doesn't preclude the clones from also using psionics).

Even though Wizards can afford to take spells like Knock, they have to choose to prepare them, else having access to the spell does not actually do anything. An Erudite, on the other hand, can use Knock any time he encounters a locked door, via Arcane Fusion. He can learn spells that are so situational to be otherwise useless, and still have them on-hand whenever they might be needed. So the murder happened in this spot, approximately six hours ago? Well that's fine, I got Hindsight from a Bard a few weeks back, I'll just Arcane Fusion a Hindsight and watch the murder take place.

The Spell-to-Power Erudite with Arcane Fusion is the closest thing we have to a spellcaster that uses all the spell lists and casts spontaneously from them. The cost of learning a new power (or spell) is so negligible that the Erudite can generally learn as many powers as he has time for.

The Sorcerer may be able to make very effective use out of Arcane Fusion, but it can't combine spells and powers with it. The Erudite is able to manifest a single Arcane Fusion to get both Divine Power and Righteous Might as a Standard action, and can still use his Swift action efficiently. He does this at the cost of a PsiCrystal. The Sorcerer needs Arcane Disciple, 3 spells known from 3 different spell levels, and a Wis of 15 to use this ability (he needs to be able to cast the spells he is trying to Fuse, after all).

1) Erudite is limited to arcane spells.  If you can get divine power and righteous might as arcane spells (which you have to do in order for the erudite to do it), then the sorcerer can do it.  And the sorcerer, DOESN'T need arcane disciple.  He needs a fucking runestaff and that's it.

The Erudite gets any arcane spells. The Sorcerer gets Sorcerer spells. The Erudite can get spells from Geomancers and other classes that get divine spells as arcane spells. [/spoiler]

I've addressed using knock already, so that argument is moot.

When?

And if we're getting into geomancers and such...
Oh my god!  More runestaffs!

Runestaffs only allow you to use spells on your own class list. A Sorcerer with a runestaff cannot cast Divine Might out of the runestaff.

[The Lurker]

Read the OP about unique powers per day and psions and wilders.

It IS on your class list if you get it crafted by a sorcerer with the spell.

[dark_samuari]

Perhaps an example...

The Alpha Omega
Male Venerable Elan Erudite 20
Str 3, Dex 3, Con 10, Int 30, Wis 18, Cha 9
60 Hit Points; 443 Power Points; 20 Manifester Level
Power Selection: Fusion, Body Outside Body, Psychic Reformation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Schism and any 6 others.

1. Alpha Omega manifests Body Outside Body (15 p.p.) creating 4 master clones (each possessing 15 hit points and 428 p.p.)
2. Each master clone manifests Psychic Reformation (7 p.p.) granting themselves a new list of 11 powers (keeping Body Outside Body, Fusion, and Pyshic Reformation).
3. Each master clone manifests Body Outside Body (15 p.p.) creating 4 clones (each possessing 3 hit points and 406 p.p.)
4. Each clone manifests Psychic Reformation (7 p.p.) granting themselves a new list of 11 powers.
5. Each master clone manifests 4 Fusions (15 p.p.) absorbing their 4 clones (granting themselves 12 hit points, 1596 p.p. and 4 new power lists)
6. Alpha Omega manifests 4 Fusions (15 p.p.) absorbing their 4 master clones (granting themselves 48 hit points, 7768 p.p. and 20 new power lists)

All concluding with the Alpha Omega possessing 108 hit points, 8196 power points and 21 power lists, all within a time frame of 1 minute and 12 seconds. And this handy dandy 6 step process can be continually amplified until the Alpha Omega possess a finite amount of hit points, power points and powers known.

Now, by going all Sylar on your world you can over time (thankfully we're immortal) harvest every single 8th level power and arcane spell ever known. Now I don't claim to be a pro on divine to arcane conversion but if there is any single way (be it Arcane Disciple or the sorcerer ACF Domain Access) than the Alpha Omega can harvest every single 8th level divine spell as well (but in a build like this you don't really need divine spells).

So, in what ways is the Erudite not powerful?         

[Kaelik]

The way were a Sorcerer of level 12 can wish for an infinite amount of knowstones and know every spell in the game, and then follow that up by wishing for a +OVER NINE THOUSAND!!! enhancement item to Cha. And once you enter cheese ville, you realize that everyone can throw around DC highest number I can think of spells that kill people against everyone elses + highest number I can think of saving throw bonuses. So the actual measure of character optimization is how large a number you can think of.

If on the other hand you live in the real world, Psionic Magic Transparency means you don't get power points with your Body Outside Body clones and all your cheese dies in the fire and you are basically left with a character that is like a Wizard, but with more spells in his spellbook and Arcane Fusion.

[dark_samuari]

If on the other hand you live in the real world, Psionic Magic Transparency means you don't get power points with your Body Outside Body clones and all your cheese dies in the fire and you are basically left with a character that is like a Wizard, but with more spells in his spellbook and Arcane Fusion.

Psionic Magic Transparency is a variant rules and by raw I read Body Outside Body as permitting you to not cast spells, not manifest powers. So, if your campaign utilizes Psionic Magic Transparency than obviously the Alpha Omega won't work.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Variant?  Really?

Combining Psionic And Magical Effects

The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

[dark_samuari]

Yeah, really...

Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

This is going to come down to a battle of semantics I believe.

[Kaelik]

And the rule is in effect as a default unless your DM specifically calls it out as not being in effect because he'd prefer the variant rule that they are completely different.