Author Topic: Erudite is a shitty class  (Read 47601 times)

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dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2009, 04:44:09 AM »
Kaelik, when an individual posts in a disrespectful manner why should they be shown respect back?

Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2009, 04:47:59 AM »
Kaelik, when an individual posts in a disrespectful manner why should they be shown respect back?

1) You are being disrespectful, only subtly.

2) They might be treated respectfully if you want, it doesn't really matter.

3) If you were going to treat someone with respect, I'd base it on if they were right.

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2009, 04:58:07 AM »
Kaelik, when an individual posts in a disrespectful manner why should they be shown respect back?

1) You are being disrespectful, only subtly.

2) They might be treated respectfully if you want, it doesn't really matter.

3) If you were going to treat someone with respect, I'd base it on if they were right.

The entire polite & civilized world would disagree with you.

Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2009, 05:01:57 AM »
The entire polite & civilized world would disagree with you.

No they really don't. No one thinks they have to treat people nicely because they are nice, or even at all. People are mean to people they dislike all the time. Yes often when in situations they hide that meanness like you do, or like democrats do with republicans. Or they do it subtly, like Lawyers insulting each other and their respective clients. But that doesn't mean they are being respectful.

It means they are being manipulative bastards.

If you have any more protestations that he is wrong about Erudites because you don't like him, please confine them to PMs and not clutter up this thread.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 05:06:26 AM by Kaelik »

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2009, 05:06:23 AM »
So Kaelik, for a historical example, why did Malcom X fail when Martin Luther King Jr. succeeded in their messages? 

KellKheraptis

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2009, 05:06:36 AM »
Bear in mind, smiling is just a "polite" way of baring your teeth at someone :P

On topic, I couldn't find "Reach Power" in the SRD or CPsi, which leads be to believe it's in Hyper. or The Mind Divine...go figure.  I will state that a good part of my bias towards Erudite is that I play mainly in epic, and further, with retraining available, the Erudite isn't the one who becomes borked...it's his commander (since he's a thrall).
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Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2009, 05:09:30 AM »
So Kaelik, for a historical example, why did Malcom X fail when Martin Luther King Jr. succeeded in their messages? 

Because Malcom X was a crazy man who preached a crazy inconsistent message of sometimes slaughter sometimes completely unaccomplishable separation, and wasn't really sure what he believed, and spent half his time arguing against previous statements made by himself.

King on the other hand was a relatively sane man who knew what he believed, was consistent, and proposed that people stop hating him as much as they did right now, and in return, he'd stop making their lives less fun.

Anklebite

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2009, 11:57:41 AM »
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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2009, 12:06:58 PM »
I hope I'm getting this right. Lurker made a rant about the Erudite being a poor class. His arguments supporting this range from 'ban some cheese', 'Erudite's don't have shapechange (aka cheese when you get down to it)', and 'you already know all the good powers and spells by playing... Umm... a cerebrumancer! So power and spell swapping per day is dumb'.

To that I'll point here
For example, a sorcerer can solo an entire campaign is on the same teir as a psion for the same reasons. The wizard is considered to be on a higher teir due to the versatility in having all arcane spells, following the same exact lines of thought with the same points the Erudite is teired in higher than the psion due to having all psionic powers, and also all arcane spells. If you really wish to argue either the Erudite/Wizard being higher teired than the Sorcerer/Psion classes you should take your opinions to JaronK's thread.

If you wish to argue an Erudite's capabilities are not close to a Wizards', Clerics', Druids', Archivists', or Artificers' capabilities then this thread has some purpose after all. Which I'll take the time to address some of those things now.

1. Cheese.
You're quick to say an Erudite learning devine spells from a character with levels any of the vast number of PrCs that grant divine spells is cheese. And try to ignore it. On the same token, casting gate to summon a CR 40 monster to fight for you, granting your self extra surprise rounds via Shapechange Dire turtle, shapechanging into a Solar for divine spells, casting genesis and creating a fast time plane to hide in, slapping 4 metamagic effects together to nuke the planet, and many many other examples are all worse. You cannot use DM fait to block an Erudite from contacting one person in game with levels one of dozen or so PrCs yet uphold an anything goes for another class. Even trying to do so is to fail before you even click on post.

If all cheese is allowed, then the Erudite wins by default theoretically since they can repeat any given day multiple times giving them the exact knowledge of every action his opponent wizard will do. There is always a way to beat something, and the Erudite can always find it.

Also, I think I'll have to dig for Body Outside A Body's text. If the clones still have PP an Erudite can simply use Fusion for yet another option for unlimited PP. Differently worth looking into.

2. PrCs.
Erudite 5 / PrCone 4 / PRCtwo 4 / PrCthree 4 / PrCfour 1 / PrCone +2 is perfectly fine with no theoretical loss at all and you can also use retraining on a Erudite 17 build to take ten PrC levels as well. So what if the abilities granted by the Incantratix and Shadowcraft Mage PrCs are better than the few psionic PrCs printed. 99% of the comments spoken of those two classes falls directly into game breaking material. It's like trying to say the 9mm Glock carried by law enforcement is a piss poor weapon because we have invented a tank.

3. Powers per round.
You explicitly mention a wizard burning two of three daily uses of a 170,000gp rod to quicken two spells (can only be done once per day) and shapechange from a 3.0 monster to cast four spells in a single given turn. However, with Overchannel and Schism the Erudite can take about 22 damage to manifest two 9th level powers in a round as often as they want and they still can add quicken power for more. This of course means the Erudite can pump out up six 9th level powers by taking about a quarter of his HP in damage by round two and the wizard casts his 7th using his last daily charge but quickly falls behind in the following rounds after that. Assuming of course the wizard actually has enough 9th level slots to try and keep up with the nova effects psionics has. Add in one of the many ways to net unlimited PP and an Erudite easily holds his own in the second tier while still maintaining the massive versatility trait only found in first teir.

One argument you may have against this is the low HP nature of using overchannel, but at the 20th level PC vs PC having 170 or 126 HP won't make a difference and psionics also comes with fast healing powers. Even novaing like that for three rounds per day puts you ahead of a wizard. And to seal the coffin, the psionic version of Time Stop can be accessed five levels earlier than the spell version letting you have even more actions in a standard round. The Erudite having Arcane Fusion and Linked Power can also kick in if you stop looking at the highest level you have access to.

Laughably, a Kobold can use Draconic Rite of Passage to take Obtain Familiar as a feat (or any other race with a scaling caster level as a racial feature) and under the magic/power transparency rules the Erudite could use Imbue Familiar to a greater extent than a wizard could.

4. Arcane Fusion.
Yes a wizard recaster could learn Greater Arcane Fusion for example. It requires a certain race, being the 17th level, taking two levels in a certain PrC. The benefit is the wizard can cast any wizard spell.

The Erudite can learn Greater Arcane Fusion from any sorcerer (who's dumb enough not to learn it?) a level earlier with no small print in costs. The benefit is being able to cast any arcane spell (wizard, sorcerer, assassin, bard, etc.), any psionic power, and any divine spell (cleric, druid, ranger) at it's full potential. Arcane Fusion is just that good when used by an Erudite.

5. Clerics can cast 9th level powers?
I didn't know that. You should try raising awareness of that kernel of knowledge, and naming the class and the book it's in so I can read about it would be a great start I think. I only know the Arcane>Divine thing. I'm pretty sure (Arcane+Powers)>(Divine+Powers) but the whole 9th level power access to any discipline (they get that right?) thing may alter things abit.


Yes the Erudite don't make a better spellcaster than a real spellcaster. Ironically, I expected that... But that don't mean the Erudite isn't a strong class.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2009, 12:20:07 PM »
And Psionics doesn't get shapechange, so schism isn't even as good (chronotyryns are better than schism).
They get Greater Metamorphosis, which is nearly the same thing. I don't remember the learning mechanism of the Erudite well enough to know if he could just pick that up as a power known (it's an Egoist discipline power), but he could certainly gain it via Psychic Chirgirury (or however you spell that stupid word).
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2009, 12:23:01 PM »
Lurker: Erudites get Divine spells the same way Archivists get Arcane spells. They cheat the system.

If a Sorcerer or Wizard takes Arcane Disciple, the Erudite can leech spells from that domain. Divine Power and Righteous Might are both Domain spells as of the Spell Compendium and PHB. What advantage does the Erudite have over the Sor/Wiz when it comes to casting Divine spells? No need for a Wisdom score to cast those Divine spells.


Not satisfied? Recaster and Wyrm Wizard, Advanced Learning, and a few other abilities turn spells from any spell list into Arcane spells. Theoretically, every spell has been converted all ready, you just need to find it.


Lastly, the Erudite is capable of researching new powers using the rules on page 95 of the XPH. Unlike the Psion, the Erudite has no upward limit on this research (researching a new power as a Psion takes one of your powers known). There's a RAW method of adding new powers to your list.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 07:35:46 PM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2009, 01:38:31 PM »
Rainbow servant doesn't work, though, since you cast your new spells from the cleric list as divine spells.
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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2009, 07:35:27 PM »
Rainbow servant doesn't work, though, since you cast your new spells from the cleric list as divine spells.

Oh. Scratch that off the list then.


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awaken DM golem

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2009, 08:32:26 PM »
Boo - enough cranky language that I'm locked out of page 2, so forgive me if I'm covering something previously covered.

Erudite gets to the Elemental Envoy feat, better than any other class.
Basically it's overpowered at 1st level, and just really good for levels 2-4.

PHB2 retraining includes class features like Domains.
Erudite wasn't available, when PHB2 was printed, but the Mind's Eye sub, are close enough.
If you go for the retraining, the mantled option, the spell to power option, and the Discipline option (key) are switchable.
Mantled opens all psionics.
StP opens all arcane, and the 2pp super Eschew Materials clause, has a few tricks to it.
Discipline gets most Divines over via Psi/maigc transparency.
XPH based only get 5 School/Discipline combos.
Dragon #349 clarifies more.
Bend Reality and Reality Revision can get more Divines.

Psi ends up not having access to some 9th level Arcanes, and a few more Divine 8s and 9s.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2009, 08:52:07 PM »
And when aDMg thinks the language is bad, you know it's bad.

;)  :p  :P
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2009, 10:41:13 PM »
Also, I think I'll have to dig for Body Outside A Body's text. If the clones still have PP an Erudite can simply use Fusion for yet another option for unlimited PP. Differently worth looking into.
The text does not state your clone loses the spellcasting ability, just that they cannot cast spells or use spell trigger items. Ergo your clones do not lose your PP they just lose their ability to manifest their powers.

Example of abuse.
[spoiler]
Powers Known
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

dark_hound

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2009, 12:26:32 AM »
Noob question, but how do you get around that your schism can't act in temporal acceleration?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2009, 12:43:09 AM »
Okay, I'm going to start slow on this, how you might on a chick that prides herself on being frigid. [Gregory BM mode on]

First: of the propriety of shitty words and whatnot. "Dude, you swear way too much" isn't an argument. And it sure as fuck doesn't invalidate any others. It's an observation that doesn't really add anything to the subject, much less bring the discussion to an end. Saying "I'm not even going to dignify that with a response", for example, is about the most passive-agressive little cuntry of an answer someone could possibly come up with, and I hate whoever invented the expression, because it sounds witty, but all it really equates to is "You see, I'm too good for this, so I'm just going to take a leak over there, confident that I had the last word in this and I win and you lose, haha". So, with that mentioned, the LESS we talk about that, the sooner we'll get somewhere.

Second: of the flexibility of metapsionics versus metamagic. It's not very hard to look at how they both compare. One uses a point-based system (whose only limiting factor is ML and amount of PP to spend, though the second isn't a problem since Psycarnum infusion effectively gives you infinite fucking power points) while the other uses a fixed slot system. Oh, have I mentioned that you can't "recharge" spell slots by any means, and that metamagic cost reduction is a lot harder to achieve than jacking up ML?

That's the sound of an argument hitting Fighter's impermeable brain.

Third: of the alleged shittiness of an Erudite. Lurker suggests that there's nothing an Erudite can do with arcane fusion that a Sorcerer can't do. SiFir mantains that an Erudite can cast ANY spell via Arcane Fusion by means of metapsionics and having a pretty big book.

Since I dislike playing favorites, I'd go with Lurker's theory for a moment... except it's wrong. SiFir has a point that he has yet to contest and it's a big enough point that makes his penis shrink into a knot and cry itself into a corner because it is an unanalyzable dot in 3D space by comparison.

See, this is being a dick without the crutch of a swear word to prove you're 'cool'. And contrary to what your moms may have taught you, being respectful only earns you anything when there's a point to being polite. It's just as unlikely that someone starts being a prick when you act nice to them as the other way around - and it's even less likely that someone starts acting polite towards you, because you asked them to do it after they started talking like a sailor and you called them on it.

[/Gregory BM mode off]

Don't make me do this again. The bitterness it takes to write like this makes my blood become too acid for anything to live in it.
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Dan2

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2009, 01:02:43 AM »
Can the off-topic arguing.
Right now I'm the only one of the mods that thinks this thread should still be open.

I, personally, want to give you all the chance to actually do something with the thread, but if the petty bickering doesn't stop we'll have to do something about it.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2009, 10:32:06 AM »
Noob question, but how do you get around that your schism can't act in temporal acceleration?
@Dark Hound far from a noob question, in fact your the only one to have cought(sp) it.
Small error on my part. I didn't pay attention to Temporal's rules on how Schism works with it, and actually Schism cannot take any actions until next round which is something I've flat out missed for weeks. I blame kittens for my mistake...

The last post's little example was meant to draw a picture of how useful unlimited PP and Spell to Power is with buff level spells, given that it still works (just accelerate with your standard action, juggle around the buffs based on duration) I'll just leave it as is.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]