Erudite is a shitty class

[dark_hound]

Noob question, but how do you get around that your schism can't act in temporal acceleration?

@Dark Hound far from a noob question, in fact your the only one to have caught(sp) it.
Small error on my part. I didn't pay attention to Temporal's rules on how Schism works with it, and actually Schism cannot take any actions until next round which is something I've flat out missed for weeks. I blame kittens for my mistake...

The last post's little example was meant to draw a picture of how useful unlimited PP and Spell to Power is with buff level spells, given that it still works (just accelerate with your standard action, juggle around the buffs based on duration) I'll just leave it as is.

Or you could just manifest it once and go to the astral plane till you feel your buff enough

[Amadi]

1) Metapsionics are inferior in every way to metamagic.  Linked power+schism+metamorphosis(shaper with metamorphic transfer) is literally the peak of psion action economy.  The linked power isn't top end, but might be close (if you link it to call to mind on an even level then it's a top level power, but manifests the next round and costs you your move action).  At BEST, the psion is tossing out 3 level appropriate powers a round (4 if you have giant ML boosts so the schism mind can get top level powers).  And that's with spell to power variant too.

A wizard at best is tossing out four top level spells a round (Chronotyryn from shapechange, 2 quickened via metamagic rods or class features, 2 standards), one fifth level spell (imbue familiar with spell ability), and a swift (wand or a swift spell from the familiar).

A cleric does pretty much the same thing with DMM or straight up doesn't need to cast in combat (persist).

So, psion actually loses the action economy.  Mostly because metapsionics suck.

A) As we have already established, Erudites, too, have access to Chronotyryn shapechange.
B) There are ways to regain your focus - Feat to regain it as move action and getting wired, with contingent powers giving you hustle whenever your focus is expended. As you arleady have infinite power points through any of the means, recharging those between combats isn't a problem. You can have four of these, for total of 4 free focuses, resulting in a lot more actions. Oh, and you psicrystal can get focus too, and refocus, and you can use your psicrystal's focus.
C) Kobold Erudite can gain access to familiar, as already noted.
D) As long as transparency is in effect, there is, IIRC, nothing that stops a psion from using metamagic rods on powers.

You are also arguing on the basis that everything is allowed, in which case I say that none of this matters, as both wizards and erudites suck monkey balls compared to Pun-Pun. Infact, the world just ended because another player ascended.

[Kaelik]

A) As we have already established, Erudites, too, have access to Chronotyryn shapechange.

How exactly do they do that? They can't get Shapechange, and Metamorphosis A) does not grant supernaturals, and B) does not go above 15 HD.

As you arleady have infinite power points through any of the means, recharging those between combats isn't a problem.

So why if we are assuming that all Psionic classes have infinite Power points aren't Psions Tier 1? They can throw off multiple 9th level powers every round with their infinite power points. That's better than a Cleric in my book, and certainly puts them in with the big 6. And how are infinite power point Ardent's only Tier 3?

C) Kobold Erudite can gain access to familiar, as already noted.

And lose out on half the other Erudite stuff that everyone wants. Kobold Sorcerers can cast as a level 20 Sorcerer at level 15, and get 9th level spells at high CL at 12. Erudite Kobolds get a familiar. Color my unimpressed.

You are also arguing on the basis that everything is allowed, in which case I say that none of this matters, as both wizards and erudites suck monkey balls compared to Pun-Pun. Infact, the world just ended because another player ascended.

He's only arguing that based on the fact that everyone else is. Any sort of limits hurt Erudites more than any of the Other big 5.

Erudites need 3 non core books and a website to even not suck terribly. Probably another 2 books to get infinite power points, and then they need every book a Wizard does to keep up. So an Erudite is always going to need 4-6 extra sources over a Wizard that are also more obscure.

Meanwhile, a Core only Wizard has infinite spells and wins in action economy.

[Rebel7284]

How exactly do they do that? They can't get Shapechange, and Metamorphosis A) does not grant supernaturals, and B) does not go above 15 HD.

I am guessing http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm

[Kaelik]

How exactly do they do that? They can't get Shapechange, and Metamorphosis A) does not grant supernaturals, and B) does not go above 15 HD.

I am guessing http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm

Which is a level 9 discipline power, so they can't get it until Epic. They can't get discipline powers of maximum level, that's why they can't get Shapechange from a Wizard in the first place.

[dark_samuari]

He's only arguing that based on the fact that everyone else is. Any sort of limits hurt Erudites more than any of the Other big 5.

Erudites need 3 non core books and a website to even not suck terribly. Probably another 2 books to get infinite power points, and then they need every book a Wizard does to keep up. So an Erudite is always going to need 4-6 extra sources over a Wizard that are also more obscure.

Meanwhile, a Core only Wizard has infinite spells and wins in action economy.

I don't think we should be arguing against the wizard but everything Tier 2 and lower.

[awaken DM golem]

@ TML - I post via a weenie filter, which sucks when adult language breaks out.
I can handle swearing on the internets and in RL, but the weenie filter can't.

**

Kaelik - The original Erudite without Mind's Eye update, is as weak as you say. It still gets the Elemental Envoy advantage early; it still gets the Linked power semi-Sorc-like unique powers per day work around; it still gets the Linked power quicken but better trick; otherwise it's Learning Repertoire works like a 1/10th cost research powers /slash/ Expanded Knowledge feat without the feat slot but with a cost, loop. Around level 15 it tails off. Personally I'd take a Sorc over an Original Erudite with Recharge, because of the spells. So maybe original Erudite is Tier 3, and you can't really PrC it at all.

The Mind's Eye update(s) including the Ardent update, pimp the class. Massively. Mantled Erudite option can get Greater Metamorph, Discipline Erudite can get it too, without needing the ardent update. The StP option can be PHB2 retrained, into one of the other two just for that reason, then learn the powers onto it's Repertoire. Then retrain back the next level. Cherry Picking. It's fun. And you can retrain into the original erudite to pick up those goodies. And you are a spell point Wizard + more. And then you are a Recharge spell point Wizard.

[Kuroimaken]

So why if we are assuming that all Psionic classes have infinite Power points aren't Psions Tier 1? They can throw off multiple 9th level powers every round with their infinite power points. That's better than a Cleric in my book, and certainly puts them in with the big 6. And how are infinite power point Ardent's only Tier 3?

Because infinite PP doesn't rape the game as badly as the Wizard's spells do, and the Psion doesn't have the same versatility by a long shot. That MIGHT be true of infinite PP plus effectively infinite ML, but it's a much harder trick to pull off, and requires more crutches, whereas Wizard rapes the game straight out of core. This is why Psion's not Tier 1.

[Kaelik]

The Mind's Eye update(s) including the Ardent update, pimp the class. Massively. Mantled Erudite option can get Greater Metamorph, Discipline Erudite can get it too, without needing the ardent update. The StP option can be PHB2 retrained, into one of the other two just for that reason, then learn the powers onto it's Repertoire. Then retrain back the next level. Cherry Picking. It's fun. And you can retrain into the original erudite to pick up those goodies. And you are a spell point Wizard + more. And then you are a Recharge spell point Wizard.

So are you here proposing that as an Erudite you can give up your first level bonus feat and get multiple different class features that all require that as the cost?

Any Erudite at all that doesn't have Spell to power is no better than a Psion. And if you have spell to power, you give up all that other stuff.

[KellKheraptis]

The Mind's Eye update(s) including the Ardent update, pimp the class. Massively. Mantled Erudite option can get Greater Metamorph, Discipline Erudite can get it too, without needing the ardent update. The StP option can be PHB2 retrained, into one of the other two just for that reason, then learn the powers onto it's Repertoire. Then retrain back the next level. Cherry Picking. It's fun. And you can retrain into the original erudite to pick up those goodies. And you are a spell point Wizard + more. And then you are a Recharge spell point Wizard.

So are you here proposing that as an Erudite you can give up your first level bonus feat and get multiple different class features that all require that as the cost?

Any Erudite at all that doesn't have Spell to power is no better than a Psion. And if you have spell to power, you give up all that other stuff.

I think what aDMg is saying is you can retrain that first level power over and over, and since the only thing fluid is the mechanic, the powers/spells learned by that mechanic stay put in your repertoir.

[Kaelik]

So he's saying that a level 1 Erudite who retrains his entire class gets to keep powers known?

That's not just a stretch, that's crazy talk. You have to retrain your very class choice at level 1 in order to change which one you are, and to do that, you have to give up everything related to your current class.

[KellKheraptis]

So he's saying that a level 1 Erudite who retrains his entire class gets to keep powers known?

That's not just a stretch, that's crazy talk. You have to retrain your very class choice at level 1 in order to change which one you are, and to do that, you have to give up everything related to your current class.

Far from it.  Retraining a class feature, which happens to be a learning mechanic.  Since you don't unlearn something you've learned in DnD, you retain them, much as you do if they are burned into your brain via PsiChir.  And hell, if you really wanna get down to it, that same mechanic allows for doing just that, to make it ironclad.

[awaken DM golem]

Psychic Reformation is the big gun for an Erudite, especially one that can get (via whatever) Arcane and Divine.

PsyRef by itself, isn't all that great after PHB2 feat retraining, and the Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos shuffle.
For the Erudite PsyRef, reaches levels of craziness unforeseen.

The repertoire can have X dumped into it.
PsyRef your powers.
Dump those powers into the repertoire.
Do it again.
Do it again again.

Then add in a PHB2 retrain of the class feature StP, to Discipline or Mantled.
Do it again.
Do it again again.

Now repeat the two above loops, as needed.

As long as the powers are in the repertoire, instead of the 2 per level normal choices,
you keep them.
And then you keep more of them.

[Amadi]

The Mind's Eye update(s) including the Ardent update, pimp the class. Massively. Mantled Erudite option can get Greater Metamorph, Discipline Erudite can get it too, without needing the ardent update. The StP option can be PHB2 retrained, into one of the other two just for that reason, then learn the powers onto it's Repertoire. Then retrain back the next level. Cherry Picking. It's fun. And you can retrain into the original erudite to pick up those goodies. And you are a spell point Wizard + more. And then you are a Recharge spell point Wizard.

So are you here proposing that as an Erudite you can give up your first level bonus feat and get multiple different class features that all require that as the cost?

Erudites have 2 bonus feats at 1st level, afaik.

[Kaelik]

So we are pulling out stupid cheese. Okay. Then I retrain my Wizard to CL 20 at level 10, oh yeah, and I use bullshit scroll rules to get all Divine spells as spells known, if I had actually cared.

Or you know, since you explicitly pulled out an infinite loop, I Omnifiscer with Persistent Delay Death that I recast again at CL infinity.

I mean, you are seriously claiming that a level 1 Erudite can just automatically keep all powers known and just know every power from every Mantle and Disciplined, and then do the whole thing again when he reaches level 3, and then do the whole thing again at 5, ect. And even though he spends hours at a time as a character that has no fucking clue what a spell even is, he still keeps spells known.

Frankly, the fact that you guys are pulling infinite loops of XP costing spells to give you the ability to spend XP to learn powers, all so that you can be as good as a Sorcerer who just levels up and learns spells tells me the Erudite isn't that great.

You can actually break the entire game in half with anyone at all capable of Casting Planar Binding, even from a scroll. Maximum level of cheese tells that Paladins are the best class in the game. Why don't you give an example of something you can do playing in a game with a DM who allows powerful characters, but who doesn't want to listen to you explain the complex 8 spell process that you repeat 7 times in order to gain Real Ultimate Power, Like a Wizard, but some powers that we've already said are shittier than spells.

[dark_samuari]

Why don't you give an example of something you can do playing in a game with a DM who allows powerful characters, but who doesn't want to listen to you explain the complex 8 spell process that you repeat 7 times in order to gain Real Ultimate Power.

Fair Enough.

Elan Erudite 20
Powers Typically Selected: Schism, Greater Arcane Fusion, Mental Pinnacle, Hypercognition, Psionic Revivify, Reality Revision, Temporal Acceleration, Polymorph any Object, Vigor, Empathic Transfer, and Astral Construct.

So alongside having a psionic recharge mechanism and an unmatched ability in versatility this sample Erudite can perform roles such as: Blaster/Battlefield Controller, Summoner, Healer, Utility, and God.

And that's a pretty simple build to put together which can shift every day to meet the needs of the adventure without any problems.
   

[Kaelik]

So he's a Wizard who casts Revivify at the cost of not taking any PrCs.

Excellent. And the reason this character is so much better than a Wizard that everyone has to claim Erudites are the bestest ever?

[dark_samuari]

So he's a Wizard who casts Revivify at the cost of not taking any PrCs.

Excellent. And the reason this character is so much better than a Wizard that everyone has to claim Erudites are the bestest ever?

Oh, well I can't speak on that behalf of the claim. I merely answered your previous request.

[Negative Zero]

Do you have any proof to the ruling that "psionic classes" in the Erudite description includes prestige classes that advance manifesting, while it is agreed that a "spellcasting class" only involves classes that grant their own progression of spellcasting, in exclusion of prestige classes that advance spellcasting?

My claim is that Erudites cannot take more levels in Wilder or Ardent than they have in Erudite, but they can take more levels in Illithid Slayer if they want, because that is not a "psionic class." If "psionic class" includes prestige classes such as Illithid Slayer, then "spellcasting class" should include prestige classes that advance casting, so you should be able to, say, use Mystic Theurge to progress Arcane Hierophant and Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Kaelik]

Do you have any proof to the ruling that "psionic classes" in the Erudite description includes prestige classes that advance manifesting, while it is agreed that a "spellcasting class" only involves classes that grant their own progression of spellcasting, in exclusion of prestige classes that advance spellcasting?

My claim is that Erudites cannot take more levels in Wilder or Ardent than they have in Erudite, but they can take more levels in Illithid Slayer if they want, because that is not a "psionic class." If "psionic class" includes prestige classes such as Illithid Slayer, then "spellcasting class" should include prestige classes that advance casting, so you should be able to, say, use Mystic Theurge to progress Arcane Hierophant and Fochlucan Lyrist.

I never really made that claim, but I was taking the fact that everyone consented to it as evidence that for whatever reason Erudites don't get unique powers a day scaling and maybe not other stuff with PrCs. I guess we can wait for Lurker to show back up and address it to him. Or anyone else who knows what the point was.

Of course, it's not like there are even any good Psionic PrCs anyway. It's still Incantatrix/Master Specialist/IotSFV/Archmage/eight other things/whatever Sorcerers take vs Slayer that gives up a CL.