Erudite is a shitty class

[Negative Zero]

Do you have any proof to the ruling that "psionic classes" in the Erudite description includes prestige classes that advance manifesting, while it is agreed that a "spellcasting class" only involves classes that grant their own progression of spellcasting, in exclusion of prestige classes that advance spellcasting?

My claim is that Erudites cannot take more levels in Wilder or Ardent than they have in Erudite, but they can take more levels in Illithid Slayer if they want, because that is not a "psionic class." If "psionic class" includes prestige classes such as Illithid Slayer, then "spellcasting class" should include prestige classes that advance casting, so you should be able to, say, use Mystic Theurge to progress Arcane Hierophant and Fochlucan Lyrist.

I never really made that claim, but I was taking the fact that everyone consented to it as evidence that for whatever reason Erudites don't get unique powers a day scaling and maybe not other stuff with PrCs. I guess we can wait for Lurker to show back up and address it to him. Or anyone else who knows what the point was.

Of course, it's not like there are even any good Psionic PrCs anyway. It's still Incantatrix/Master Specialist/IotSFV/Archmage/eight other things/whatever Sorcerers take vs Slayer that gives up a CL.

That is a valid point. Anarchic Initiate is the only full manifesting PrC I know of (except maybe in the 3rd party stuff), and that really pales in comparison to the arcane ones. But I do think that for the purposes of the tier list, we are assuming no multiclassing and no prestige classes.

[SorO_Lost]

I don't think we should be arguing against the wizard but everything Tier 2 and lower.

This is the Spell to Power Erudite we're talking about here. Nothing less than comparing it to the most powerful tier in D&D is worthy of mentioning.

Heck, it's not even an effort to compare an Erudite to most tier 1s.
A cleric has Domain powers over an Erudite for an extra boost at the 1st level. But unlimited PP is greater than DMM(persist) and Schism beats quicken anything which includes DMM(quicken), both of which come in at mid levels. There may be some other useful divine feats, but I'm sure there are spells out there that could be used to replicate their effects. Druids have Wild Shape and some other negligible features. All of which, while powerful, are replicated by higher level spells. Artificers are better than an Erudite when it comes to spell choices since they can craft any spell/power as a scroll/stone and cast from it. Their flaw is hitting WBL caps and the Elan Erudite can learn dozens of spells for free from sleeping spellcasters at the local tavern for free in the time it takes to craft even a single magic item. An Artificer and Erudite thread could probably last awhile. Archivists are an Erudite's best friend, after beating an Archivist down an Erudite geas the Archivist into teaching him every divine spell he knows. In that case it can just fall down to Arcane>Divine and there is no getting around that. Powers+Arcane(+Divine)>Divine no matter how you slice it which puts the Erudite ahead.

So we're stuck arguing about comparing a Wizard with an Erudite. Which is a fancy way of saying All 8th level spells & powers with a few 9th level powers (retraining for all of them) coupled with unlimited castings of them and the ability to repeat the day over and over again vs a Wizard 5 / Shadowcraft Mage 5 / Incantratix 10 requiring less setup to abuse.

At least this is better than a Fighter vs Wizard thread...

[KellKheraptis]

The way I would compare them would be that given a no holds barred situation, save true punification, the Erudite pulls ahead of Tier 1 and IMO matches Tier 0 (if not passes that), the Psi-Artificer.  However, with a whole fuckton less setup, a Wizard can  do the same thing.  There, now everyone's happy >.>

P.S. - I still plan on playing a Wizard in the next campaign, not an erudite, for reason of DM being a 1st and 2nd Ed holdover that still has nightmares about the original psionicist being able to PK a mindflayer at level 1.  That and I really don't feel like arguing this exact same point in all its grand glory for two hours when I can do roughly the same thing with a Wizard

[dark_samuari]

I don't think we should be arguing against the wizard but everything Tier 2 and lower.

This is the Spell to Power Erudite we're talking about here. Nothing less than comparing it to the most powerful tier in D&D is worthy of mentioning.

But this thread isn't about if the Erudite is equal to or more powerful than the wizard, it's about if the Erudite is a powerful class.

[Negative Zero]

Not only is it powerful, but does it belong in Tier 1 or not? Ergo, proving it to be superior to Tier 2 would show that it belongs in Tier 1.

[Kaelik]

BLARGA.

Shut up about infinite power points. All Core Clerics have infinite spells after level 9. All Wizards after level 13. In Core, without diving into setting specific crap to devise a recharge mechanic that still isn't as fast as Clerics and Wizards.

No one cares about maximum possible optimization from 14 books 3 websites and sleeping with the DM to get him to agree to the most bullshit retraining you can think of.

A Core Wizard of level 11 can cast 4 spells a round at an arbitrarily large DC, like DC 22+ half the largest number you can think of. Please explain to me why you think your "INFINITE POWER POINTS!!!!" Erudite with a billion spells known (that all cost XP) is more powerful than a Sorcerer who has infinite spells known and infinite spells per day via going to a timeless plane to rest or retrain all his spells.

It's exactly the same thing, infinite spells known and per day, so why is yours with your 6 books and a website more likely to fly than Core + PHB II?

[dark_samuari]

Kaelik, I'm not exactly seeing an argument presented above. Are you merely angry that some people on the board consider the the Erudite to be better than the Wizard or Sorcerer?

Because I believe this thread is intended for the discussion of the power level (in comparison with Jaron K's Tier system) of the Erudite.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Now going off that scale, I believe the Erudite is a tier 1 class. And it should have nothing to do with the power comparison between the Erudite and any other of the tier 1 classes.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, I'm not exactly seeing an argument presented above. Are you merely angry that some people on the board consider the the Erudite to be better than the Wizard or Sorcerer?

Because I believe this thread is intended for the discussion of the power level (in comparison with Jaron K's Tier system) of the Erudite.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Now going off that scale, I believe the Erudite is a tier 1 class. And it should have nothing to do with the power comparison between the Erudite and any other of the tier 1 classes.

No, I am mad that people think the fact that you can dumpster dive hardcore to match the cheese of Core Sorcerer makes a class Tier 1.

Tiers are and must be based on non cheese. If they are based on cheese then Here is a list of Tier 1 classes:

Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite, Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior, Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter, Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight, CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Truenamer, Commoner.

All of those classes are capable of casting any 9th level spell or lower at CL 9999999. That's enough to break the game.

Tier 1 is not based on which class has can dip, twist, and weasel it's way to the highest power level, because 90% of all classes cap at the same cheese level. Some classes can do it at lower level. That's it.

I have seen no special thing that a Sorcerer with less cheese can't do. You aren't going to convince me that Erudite is Tier 1 based on seven book cheese.

This is how you determine Tier:

What Tier is the Erudite without spell to power? Tier 3? What Tier is the Erudite without Spell to Power and meeting someone with Arcane Fusion and or Greater? Tier 3? What Tier is an Erudite with spell to power and Arcane Fusions but no retraining? Tier 2? What Tier is an Erudite with Spell to Power, also several other variants that replace Spell to Power, and retraining to use them all, and Arcane Fusion? Tier 1, but he has to spend XP out the ass. What Tier is an Erudite that abuses infinite training loops, and infinite power point loops and everything else previously mentioned: Tier 0?

What Tier is a Core only Sorcerer? Tier 2. What Tier is the still Core only Sorcerer? Tier 2. Core Sorcerer Planeshift? Tier 1. Core Sorcerer with Retraining and Planeshift? Tier 0. Sorcerer abusing everything? Tier 0.

Sorcerer wins 4 out of 5. It ties the other one.

I have a more powerful Tier 0 doesn't matter, because actually, everyone has the same Tier 0, Arbitrary numbers of Staffs of any and all spells emulated to an Arbitrary stat and Arbitrary CL, even 14th level ones if you care.

You have to tell me that in any game I am ever going to play there will be an Erudite better than a Sorcerer in that same game before I believe you that Erudite is Tier 1. Amount of cheese to reach power level X is important.

[SorO_Lost]

No, I am mad that people think the fact that you can dumpster dive hardcore to match the cheese of Core Sorcerer makes a class Tier 1. ... I have seen no special thing that a Sorcerer with less cheese can't do. You aren't going to convince me that Erudite is Tier 1 based on seven book cheese.

SRD + Complete Psionic (or webpage) + Webpage + Complete Mage (arcane fusion).
So that's one book?

All of those classes are capable of casting any 9th level spell or lower at CL 9999999. That's enough to break the game.

Example please?

Tier 1 is not based on which class has can dip, twist, and weasel it's way to the highest power level, because 90% of all classes cap at the same cheese level. Some classes can do it at lower level. That's it.

As I said before, summoning a CR 40 creature to attack for you or gaining an extra round by shapechanging into a dire turtle is an example of cheese. You refuse to contest those as such but are quick to whine about Arcane Fusion being able to cast anything you know.

What Tier is the Erudite without spell to power? Tier 3?

I'd suspect it's higher than a wizard with 8 int or a druid without natural spell.

You have to tell me that in any game I am ever going to play there will be an Erudite better than a Sorcerer in that same game before I believe you that Erudite is Tier 1. Amount of cheese to reach power level X is important.

Theres a whole thread here saying that, I'd suspect at this point you flat out refuse to see anything.

[Anklebite]

generally, the quick-referance for cheese factor is either abusing an arbitrarily large pool of a supposedly limited resource(dark xp, power pool loops, three entirely filled boccab's blessed book on the same wizard, shapechange cherry-picking, xp costs), rule loopholes, poorly worded abilities and "woops" shenanigans put in the game for flavor purposes(pun pun, gating in epic monsters at level 17, bag-o-rats whirlwind great cleave, diplomacy, IHS), and linking together obscure rules in ways that the writers didn't consider. 

  these aren't the only cheesy things, but if you are using any of them as part of a build, then there is always at least a minor hint of brie.

[Flay Crimsonwind]

Can this get moved to another, more appropriate thread? ANY other thread, really? It's not trying to min/max anything, it's either bitching about the class, or it goes in deliberations (though I believe it's more bitching than deliberation...).

[Kaelik]

SRD + Complete Psionic (or webpage) + Webpage + Complete Mage (arcane fusion).
So that's one book?

And that example Erudite is worse than a Sorcerer. So no one cares.

Example please?

You are a Rogue of level 11. You have some WBL which buys you a Admirals Bicorn, Circlet of Persuasion, and a several scrolls at decent CLs of Planar Binding, Magic Circle, and Dimensional Anchor. You are a level 11 Rogue, so you can solo an Effreet if it breaks the checks. You UMD at +32. You cast all the spells from scrolls, you then have the Effreet use it's Wish to create an item, as the Create Item function of Wish. The Item you create is a Staff of Wishes. Or a Ring of three Wishes, whatever.

You then use the staff to Wish for a +1000000000000 competence bonus to UMD item. This item is Epic, and therefore costs loads of money. You don't care because of how screwed up Wish is. You put that on. Your UMD score is arbitrarily high. You can emulate an Arbitrarily high Int Scores and CL. You then wish for another item. Whatever you want, Like a Staff of Wail of the Banshee. You emulate a CL whatever Int mod whatever caster and kill everything nearby subject to death effects. You keep wishing for more items, and more staves. You get a Handy Haversack to store them all. You pull out whichever one you want in a move action, and then cast die no save. You also wished for a + arbitrary enhancement to Con item. And + arbitrary resistance to saves. You are better than any D&D deity.

As I said before, summoning a CR 40 creature to attack for you or gaining an extra round by shapechanging into a dire turtle is an example of cheese. You refuse to contest those as such but are quick to whine about Arcane Fusion being able to cast anything you know.

No, Dire Turtle is not cheese, and Arcane Fusion is not cheese. Arcane Fusion on an Erudite is Tier 2.

Theres a whole thread here saying that, I'd suspect at this point you flat out refuse to see anything.

No there is a whole thread full of fapping off to Midnight Augmentation to gain infinite PP, even though a Sorcerer can do the same thing with Plane Shift. What there isn't is any example of a non infinite PP/retraining loop Erudite that is as good as a Sorcerer.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Uh, you explicitly can't emulate CL with UMD.

[Kaelik]

Uh, you explicitly can't emulate CL with UMD.

Uh, it never says anything explicit about CL. It does however say:

"Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above)."

CL is a class feature, and CL X is a class feature or a level X Wizard/cleric/druid. So UMD checks of ein billion equate to CL of ein billion -20, for the purposes of emulating CL, when dealing with a staff.

[Amadi]

Tiers are and must be based on non cheese. If they are based on cheese then Here is a list of Tier 1 classes:

How do you define "cheese", considering that it isn't an absolute, but a relative term. What isn't cheese to me has repeatedly proven to be cheese to my playgroup, including Lion Totem Barbarian / Hexblade with Power Attack. You cannot say that something is "cheesy", you can just say that it is "cheesy" in your opinion, which doesn't tell anything about how the rest of the world feels.

If we must base the tiers at "no cheese", I call that every wizard must only prepare magic missiles at every level and only feat allowed in the game is toughness. Wizards and druids use CLW instead. You can only wildshape to the worst animal found. Everything else could be regarded as "cheesy" by someone else, heck, playing a wizard in the first place could.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It's listed in one of the officially canonical sources - the FAQ, perhaps.  Essentially, it boils down to "you can't actually use a class feature with UMD, and since you have to actually use your caster level on the staff to make it go, UMD doesn't work."

[SorO_Lost]

SRD + Complete Psionic (or webpage) + Webpage + Complete Mage(arcane fusion).So that's one book?

And that example Erudite is worse than a Sorcerer. So no one cares.

20th level Sorcerer's spells known.
9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3.

20th level Erudite's spells known assuming Arcane Fusion and it's Greater version are used.
All/All/All/All/All/All/All/All/X/X. Where X is 9 divided the way you see fit. Notably 4/3 works fine, which leaves slots open for Schism and Temporal Acceleration.
Of course, a realistic number may only put those into the hundreds. After all the Erudite only learns three spells per day during down time and will eventually run into spellcasters with too many matching spells. Though honestly it wouldn't really cost much to hire a Wizard to help you do something that requires the spells your after and involves a long trip. This means all arguments about the Wizard being better due to having more spells known applies to an Erudite/Sorcerer argument. However I see no need to repaste them in this thread instead visit the 339 or the rest of these forums. I'll just point out an Erudite maintains full spontaneous manifesting of all spell's known whereas a Wizard may only have 4/day (MoAO and Uncanny Forethought) and requires 15 minutes to fill slots left empty making it even better at being versatile than a Wizard.

Next up is new spell/power rate. Erudite are not a level behind in new spell levels like a Sorcerer. For half the game the Erudite is casting a level higher of psionic powers than the Sorcerer can with his spells. And 17/20ths of the game the Erudite is also casting the same level of spells the Sorcerer is. In a simple way of saying it, For half the game the Erudite is as good at spellcasting as the Sorcerer on top of having full psionic advancement. The so called balancing point of this is done by knowing even fewer on a given day than the Sorcerer, and Arcane Fusion completely changes that. In this area though, the Wizard at least is a level ahead of the Erudite in spellcasting.

The Erudite, Wizard, and Sorcerer all get a pet. But only the Wizard and Erudite get bonus feats. It help keeps the Erudite on par with the Wizard.

Lastly theres 9th level arcane spells.
Time Stop: Temporal Acceleration is better.
Gate: Impracticable in the long run, -5,000XP hurts and if they teleport or flee your sitting there fmling.
Shapechange: Pay 9,000XP for a Egotist to UPD Psychic Chirurgery and teach you Greater Metamorphosis. It's like one of those miniquests the DMG or PHB suggests for wizards, only mandatory and unignored.
Wish: Reality Revision.
Foresight: Is overrated and requires foresight on your part to use, Cunning is better.
MDJ: Unreplacable. It's a kickass spell too.
Maw of Chaos: Worthless without an insane CL, monsters at that point eat you and walk out of it or have their own ranged attacks to cast.
Ice Assassin: You only need to cast it once, to copy a wizard, who reaches more spells for you and casts Genesis.
Genesis: You only need to cast it once, either buy UMD boosting items and a scroll, pay a wizard 26,800 to cast it for you, use Ice Assassin, or risk wish corruption and use Reality Revision.
Not saying 9th level spells are not freaking awesome, just that there are options for the Erudite to either mimic or replace them. And don't forget the Erudite isn't simply limited to 8th level spells as I think you are overlooking. They have their own 9th level powers to manifest as well which I'm sure is close enough power wise not to fall behind reguardless.

No there is a whole thread full of fapping off to Midnight Augmentation to gain infinite PP, even though a Sorcerer can do the same thing with Plane Shift. What there isn't is any example of a non infinite PP/retraining loop Erudite that is as good as a Sorcerer.

Erudites get Planesshift too, so they can use the same exact time trick as the Wizard or Sorcerer.

And no the thread is not hung up on just the incarnate trick for PP. Mental Pinnacle, Dweomer of Transference, and Body Outside A Body + Fusion were mentioned. Though Fusion and Simulacrum is a (costly) option as well. Best of all three of those exist within the SRD. Which means the Erudite not only has the same exact recharge tricks as t he arcane spellcasters, but they also have their own unlimited PP combos to add to that.

[Kaelik]

20th level Sorcerer's spells known.
9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3.

20th level Erudite's spells known assuming Arcane Fusion and it's Greater version are used.
All/All/All/All/All/All/All/All/X/X. Where X is 9 divided the way you see fit. Notably 4/3 works fine, which leaves slots open for Schism and Temporal Acceleration.
Of course, a realistic number may only put those into the hundreds. After all the Erudite only learns three spells per day during down time and will eventually run into spellcasters with too many matching spells. Though honestly it wouldn't really cost much to hire a Wizard to help you do something that requires the spells your after and involves a long trip. This means all arguments about the Wizard being better due to having more spells known applies to an Erudite/Sorcerer argument. However I see no need to repaste them in this thread instead visit the 339 or the rest of these forums. I'll just point out an Erudite maintains full spontaneous manifesting of all spell's known whereas a Wizard may only have 4/day (MoAO and Uncanny Forethought) and requires 15 minutes to fill slots left empty making it even better at being versatile than a Wizard.

And a Sorcerer has better PrCs, feats, and can easily end up with a Sorcerer progression equal to the Erudite but at greater CL using just Races of the Dragon and it's web site. Bonus feats aren't impressive when every Sorcerer can dip PrCs with bonus feats, or even go Incantatrix. "All" isn't better than 3 in most situations, so I'm not terribly impressed. Without infinite Power points an Erudite is just a more versatile less powerful caster. About on par with the Sorcerer.

Erudites get Planesshift too, so they can use the same exact time trick as the Wizard or Sorcerer.

Yes, and the Core Sorcerer trick is better than any Erudite trick, so

And no the thread is not hung up on just the incarnate trick for PP. Mental Pinnacle, Dweomer of Transference, and Body Outside A Body + Fusion were mentioned. Though Fusion and Simulacrum is a (costly) option as well. Best of all three of those exist within the SRD. Which means the Erudite not only has the same exact recharge tricks as t he arcane spellcasters, but they also have their own unlimited PP combos to add to that.

Mental Pinnacle Dweomer of Transference don't actually give infinite power points, they allow you to spend a standard action and a permanent loss of power points to start a chain of casting that cost temporary points. You still end it lower than you began, and you have to continuously recast it ever ten rounds or spend actual combat actions to use it. So SRD only, Erudites don't have infinite power points, and Body Outside Body is a joke that doesn't even work by the rules, much less with a DM playing Psionic Transparency.

[Samb]

Hmm body outside body might not work since the spell specificlly says your clone cannot cast spells.  Unless I am missing something that applies for manifesting powers as well.

Shitty class as in its like a swashbuckler or samurai?  Because that is what I think about when I think shitty class.  Maybe the OP just has his panties in a bunch because he doesn't feel it deserves to be on tier one is better than his pet class sorcerer?  

The whole basis of the tier system is basically invalid, since an inherit bias is in place for favorite classes and the fact that cheese does exist.  Do you have an operational definition of what "cheese" is?  Polymorph/metamorphosis is chuck full of cheese and most gamers accept it as a part of life, to say that erutide's is more than another class' is silly when you have no real way of measuring such a value.

[Negative Zero]

Actually, I don't think he loves the sorcerer that much, but he's using the sorcerer as an example since it's the best class in Tier 2.