Author Topic: Erudite is a shitty class  (Read 47655 times)

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Samb

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Re: I think we're reading the Erudite wrong...
« Reply #140 on: July 27, 2009, 03:13:30 AM »
Talking to you is tiring, copy pasta will suffice for you.

You just don't want to lose a war you started.
Thread. Already. Won.

Game. Over.



If it makes you feel any better I think psion and sorceresses belong in tier one since it takes very little to give them exactly what a mage has, but that is an issue with the tier system itself not erudite itself.  I mean excusing sorceress cheese while vilifying erudite cheese= epic fail in logic.
Happy?

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #141 on: July 27, 2009, 03:14:09 AM »
Sinfire Titan. Does an Erudite get to use infinite power points or retraining?

If not, how do you deal with the fact that Sorcerers are always casting better spells?

If yes? Fine, remove Incantatrix and explain to me how a Sorcerer 12 casting infinite DC infinity spells at infinite CL is not Tier 1.

If the Sorc gets to recharge Spells at will, then yes.

The reason Sorcerer 12 is still Tier 2 is because of limits on abilities known. The Sorcerer is damn-near confined to level-based restrictions, while the Erudite is capable of changing his entire focus on a daily basis. The Wizard/Cleric/Druid/Archivist also have this option. The Artificer has a limited version of this ability, but the options presented to all of the other Big 6. The Erudite can manifest virtually every spell ever printed.

The Sorcerer has to deal with spells known, while the Erudite has a spell book that cannot be stolen by any means short of death (RAW, not even the River Styx can make an Erudite forget his powers known).

The Sorcerer cannot cast every spell on his spell list (spells known is different). The Erudite is capable of learning every Psion/Wilder power printed (Disciplines are separate for this definition) and manifesting any power from that list. Once he does, he's stuck with that power for the next 24 hours at most. If he burns through all 11 of his Unique Powers today, he just sleeps and picks new ones tomorrow.

The Sorcerer needs to wait until he gains a level to swap spells (if using the Retraining options in PH2). From personal experience, a properly run campaign (4 equal-level encounters/day) does not result in a level-up every 24 hours. It results in one every 3-4 days at most. RAW, Retraining also takes days, or even WEEKS of time.

In the same amount of time it takes for the Sorcerer to retrain even one of his spells known (which is all he can do by RAW, even with PH2's retraining), an Erudite can trade out his Unique Powers/day up to 14 times (assuming retraining takes 2 weeks, at most). He can even expand his list of powers known during that time without needing to wait for a level-up.

BTW, retraining using Psychic Reformation is easily twice as expensive as the Erudite's ability to learn new powers (RAW, the price tag for a 20th level Erudite to learn a power is no greater than 400 XP, while PsiReform costs 50 XP/level away the choice was made, not to mention prices for paying someone to manifest it).

This is what separates them. Who cares if the Sorcerer can cast Save or Dies with a save DC of >9000? He's limited to casting the same spells every day, whereas the Erudite is unpredictable. And on a technicallity, the Erudite can manifest powers with the same save DC (I assume we are referring to Heroes of Horror Tainted Scholar, right? The Mind's Eye published a Psionic variant of that same class).

If the Sorcerer fucks up his spells known list, he needs to survive for a full level before he even gets a chance to replace it. If the Erudite makes a bad choice, he does the same thing a Wizard does: Sleep and make a better choice the next day.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Samb

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #142 on: July 27, 2009, 03:24:54 AM »
If you are using transparency then psychic reformation can change spells as well right?  So a sorcerer would not need to wait till he levels either if he has a psion, wilder or erudite friend.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #143 on: July 27, 2009, 03:37:14 AM »
Sort of.

Sorcerers are better at the specific Domain & Function of "Combat, Avoiding Combat, Getting to Combat, and Staying Alive in Combat" Erudites are more versatile in that even though they are worse at those four things, they are better at "Opening Doors, and Finding Shit out."

And if a Sorcerer really wants, he can take a dip in Divine Oracle.

Divine Oracle wastes spells known, something people have asserted since the beginning of the Character Tiers thread.

Erudites are naturally weaker than the Wizard due to Psionics having better balance, but that gap is marginal at most. While no Psion or Erudite is going to be manifesting Genesis with the intent of creating a plane that allows them to recharge their powers/day, I guarantee you that a Psionic Grease is no less powerful than it's Arcane brother.


Quote
So Rogue with UMD as a class skill is Tier 1? Because it has every spell in the game. When you get the spells, what you can do with them, and what you have to do to get those spells is all part of the Tier system.

Nope. That's an example of a broken ability that anyone can invest in. The ability also has some severe drawbacks:

1: Limited in use. While it is theoretically possible, and even RAW plausible, to create magic items that have no restrictions on uses/day, it isn't practical. The DM will likely never let it happen, no matter how restrictive you make the item (and heaven forbid you put a restriction on the item that the DM can take away), and the price tag prevents most classes from obtaining a practical amount of those items that do exist.

2: Price tag. Every item has one, and you only have so much to spend. While there are ways around the WBL, and even ways around the price, most of those options are only available to Tier 2 and up. UMD is capable of duplicating them, but even then, the DM is likely to intervene.

3: Failure chance. A limit on practicality is the odd chance that you do fail. I admit, UMD is the easiest skill to boost, but there's a level-limit on that too. It requires a good deal of resources to make it impossible to fail a check, and some of them may never get allowed.

All of this is a moot point if we assume the DM doesn't intervene, but then again, what good is a Rogue if the DM never stops the Paladin from ascending to Pun Pun status?

Contrast this to the costs an Erudite faces. 20 XP per Erudite Level (so multiclassing out early, while limiting Unique Powers, actually makes 9th level powers cheaper), and you can pick any power you want. At the cost of an effective negative level, you can get 50 brand new powers. Assuming the Erudite does this when it is feasible, he can collect a massive number of spells and powers to choose from. This is as likely to fly with the DM as a Wizard or Archivist learning new spells using scrolls, except that the Erudite can simply render his "teacher" unconscious for one round to leech a power/spell. He needs to make a skill check to do this, but that's a low DC check (24 for a 9th level psionic power, 23 for 8th level spells). he can also learn these powers in massive quantities, provided he commits them all at the end of the day.

Quote
Erudites have fewer spells for 10 levels. Then they have fewer spells of the higher level spells in return for infinite versatility of spells no one actually uses.

Actually, it's more like fewer spells until they can afford 20 XP. They can expand their powers known as early as 1st level, and they even technically start play with more powers known than any Sorcerer of equal level.

Per day? True. I concede that they are limited in per day abilities due to Unique Powers. But this restriction also applies to the Generalist Wizard. Only the Focused Specialist gets as many spells/day as the Sorcerer does. But being a Focused Specialist cuts off 3 entire schools of magic (conversely , the Erudite only gives up 9th level discipline and arcane/divine powers; he can learn 8th level and lower powers almost freely).

Quote
The cost for all this is sucking in combat compared to real classes (IE half of Tier 3 at least manages to cast level appropriate effects, all of Tier 2).

Being able to suck is an ability that all classes have. Being able to suck diversely is not a qualifier for Tier 1.


As I proved on page 6's end, the Erudite may or may not be as limited as we once thought. If this is true, he may be considerably more powerful than the rest of the Big 6, if only due to spontaneous ability.

He can manifest level-appropriate abilities. He has free access to level appropriate Psion/Wilder psionic powers. He may lose out on some of the more broken ones (Greater Metamorphosis), but he does get the important ones (Temporal Accel, Plane Shift). In that respect, he is Tier 3.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #144 on: July 27, 2009, 03:43:43 AM »
If you are using transparency then psychic reformation can change spells as well right?  So a sorcerer would not need to wait till he levels either if he has a psion, wilder or erudite friend.

That has problems though. Namely, the XP cost is 150% greater than the Erudite's costs for learning powers, it takes multiple manifestations to work, it needs another friendly person who is able to use it (emphasis because the Erudite can potentially learn abilities from hostile creatures), and it has a hefty GP price tag.

Oh, and for the same XP cost, an Erudite of equal level can learn 1.5 powers. And he can leech 100 powers from someone in the same time it takes for the Sorcerer to receive a single use of PsiReform. In 8 hours time, the Erudite can learn 50 new powers (or more, if he gained enough XP to put him above the next level's requirements). In 8 hours time, the Sorcerer could potentially exchange 48 spells, but it would cost him considerably more XP and GP.

And if the opposition rules that the Erudite can't use Arcane Fusion because he knows no Sorcerer spells, then that same restriction can be used on PsiReform (it specifically says Powers, feats, or skills, but makes no mention of spells because of transparency).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #145 on: July 27, 2009, 04:32:21 AM »
Dude, his argument is that they are Tier 2 good, not Tier 1 good. He does this by showing they are about as good as a Sorcerer. A Little better than a Psion and a lot worse than Wizards. And as good as Sorcerers! WTF. It's right there in his earlier posts. good as a Sorcerer=in Tier of Sorcerer.

No, his argument is not that. The thread is titled Erudite is a shitty class.

An opening claim in the initial post is
It's a shitty class, and you're a stupid person for believing it's a good class.

Maybe you could start a thread titled Erudite should be Tier 2? Maybe that would let you argue something relevant to the actual proposed argument we are involved in with this thread, Kailik. But here, in this thread, we'd like to debate the issue at hand if that would be okay with you?
I've made several points:
0) Shitty doesn't mean weak.  It means that it's shitty.  This MIGHT mean it's weak, but it also might mean that it is a class with the stupidist casting mechanic ever.  Or it might mean that it's a class that is worse than the thing it's based off for the first ten levels and arguably not that much stronger for the next 6.  Seriously, shitty might just mean that it's a shitty class and not a weak class.
1) Until the arcane fusion kicks in, Erudite can be objectively proven to be weaker than both sorcerers and psions.  Hands down.  That's AT LEAST the first ten levels of the game where it is WORSE than the base class it's being compared to.  During those levels, it is hands down weaker than an equal level psion.  Nobody in this entire thread has argued that a level 10 erudite is stronger than a level 10 psion.
Further points to 1)
1a) Sorcerers are better than psions.  They just get better shit all around.
1b) Levels 1-10 see more play than levels 11+.  This means that for the ranking of classes, those levels should be weighted heavier because odds are that someone using the tiers will be higher that they will be using those levels.

Conclusion: At the levels that see more play, Erudite is weaker than the base class.  This makes it a mechanically inferior (and weak) class.

2) The class gets access to more broken stuff, but has a lower base power level.  This is the same argument that is used to say that wizard is a stronger class than beguiler at level 8 (the beguiler spell list gets kinda meh after they get fifth level spells, so I'm picking level 8 here).  The fact is, at level 8 a beguiler has a higher minimum power level than a wizard and that makes it a stronger class if it has enough power to take on the challenges it faces.  Now, since you don't NEED polymorph to be competitive (tossing out charm monster and solid fog is plenty level appropriate), the beguiler is a better class because it gets better hit points, skill points, armor, and gets a better spellcasting mechanic.

So, yeah.  You've got it totally fucking wrong.

Edit: Everything else Sinfire has posted in the last page or so has been strawman (read the OP, man; I know you have aspergers, but that shouldn't interfere with your reading comprehension), so I'm not even going to address it.  The post just quoted, was a legitimate mistake and not strawman, so that gets addressing.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 04:39:29 AM by The Lurker »

Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #146 on: July 27, 2009, 04:37:34 AM »
Talking to you is tiring, copy pasta will suffice for you.

Talking to you is boring, Copy Paste will suffice:

"I can see you trying to confound this argument (sure signs of someone losing one)."

Sinfire, I'll try to do this without lengthy quotes, because so much of what you say is irrelevant or misconstrued.

1) You vastly underestimate how cool it is too have lots of spells. Even my high level assumed every spell buff machines still only need 6-10 spells of any level. I literally would be wasting my time finding others, because they are the 6-10 best spells. A Sorcerer can easily have 6-10 spells of every level without trying. Sorcerer spells known is not that big a limitation of anything other than your highest level.

2) The Rogue thing is directly in contradiction to some dumbass (I don't care which one) saying that Erudites are Tier 1 because they have access to a bunch of spells, so it doesn't matter what level they can use them or how well. The fact that Rogues aren't Tier 1 is precisely my point, that when and how and what they can do with them are important.

3) No, I was talking about a Sorcerer 12 using Wish abuse. Which is something everyone has access to. A Bard can throw out DC whatever spells for all it matters, but a Sorcerer has better ones and can do it contained within himself. Cheese is a limit, and that is a point that Samb needs driven into his brain on a locomotive, because he has no explanation of how a level ECL 7 Phaerdrium With buyoff active (as if it matters) can Planar Bind an Efreet and Wish himself to an infinite loop, and still be worse than an Erudite at any level.

4) Seriously, a Sorcerer can spend two feats to add 2 spells known at every spell level. He can grab a Runestaff for any spells he likes, he can end up with 8-10 spells of every level that the Erudite has infinity. And You don't need more than 8-10. The Wizard isn't Tier 1 because it can learn a bunch of spells and change them each day, it's Tier 1 because it can prepare 5-7 different spells at each level and be very versatile that day while simultaneously preparing good spells than win D&D.

5) The Erudite has 2 shitty power of his highest level and spends half the game without Arcane Fusion. Whatever his highest level powers are, I can find a spell of the level lower that is better. You know what one thing Every Tier 1 class that isn't an Erudite really has in common? They get spells of a given level at 2xlevel-1. Spells, not powers. Getting new powers gets you up to Tier 2. Not above.

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #147 on: July 27, 2009, 04:59:13 AM »
I've made several points:
0) Shitty doesn't mean weak.  It means that it's shitty.  This MIGHT mean it's weak, but it also might mean that it is a class with the stupidist casting mechanic ever.  Or it might mean that it's a class that is worse than the thing it's based off for the first ten levels and arguably not that much stronger for the next 6. Seriously, shitty might just mean that it's a shitty class and not a weak class.

Then I would appreciate & request that you clarify which meaning you are going to go with for the discussion.

1b) Levels 1-10 see more play than levels 11+.  This means that for the ranking of classes, those levels should be weighted heavier because odds are that someone using the tiers will be higher that they will be using those levels.

Conclusion: At the levels that see more play, Erudite is weaker than the base class.  This makes it a mechanically inferior (and weak) class.

But the tiers aren't designed for this type of analysis. If that was true than melee classes would rank much higher as a result of the focus on lower levels. The tiers depend on a perspective of the entire run of the class and it's power scale (which is commonly looked at near the end of a classes career). And I agree with you that levels 1-10 are much more played than the higher levels, but that's a invalid claim to use in conjunction with Jaron K's tier system.   

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #148 on: July 27, 2009, 05:07:17 AM »
4) Seriously, a Sorcerer can spend two feats to add 2 spells known at every spell level. He can grab a Runestaff for any spells he likes, he can end up with 8-10 spells of every level that the Erudite has infinity.

But you aren't keeping the sorcerer in house when you bring up claims like that.

5) The Erudite has 2 shitty power of his highest level and spends half the game without Arcane Fusion. Whatever his highest level powers are, I can find a spell of the level lower that is better.

But... Once my Erudite does get Arcane Fusion & later Greater Arcane Fusion he's going to be playing that same fiddle...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:11:52 AM by dark_samuari »

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #149 on: July 27, 2009, 05:09:41 AM »
I've made several points:
0) Shitty doesn't mean weak.  It means that it's shitty.  This MIGHT mean it's weak, but it also might mean that it is a class with the stupidist casting mechanic ever.  Or it might mean that it's a class that is worse than the thing it's based off for the first ten levels and arguably not that much stronger for the next 6. Seriously, shitty might just mean that it's a shitty class and not a weak class.

Then I would appreciate & request that you clarify which meaning you are going to go with for the discussion.
I just implied that it was all of them at once.  Every single one has already been defended in this thread.
Quote
1b) Levels 1-10 see more play than levels 11+.  This means that for the ranking of classes, those levels should be weighted heavier because odds are that someone using the tiers will be higher that they will be using those levels.

Conclusion: At the levels that see more play, Erudite is weaker than the base class.  This makes it a mechanically inferior (and weak) class.

But the tiers aren't designed for this type of analysis. If that was true than melee classes would rank much higher as a result of the focus on lower levels. The tiers depend on a perspective of the entire run of the class and it's power scale (which is commonly looked at near the end of a classes career). And I agree with you that levels 1-10 are much more played than the higher levels, but that's a invalid claim to use in conjunction with Jaron K's tier system.   
Wrong.

Druid: Riding dog+entangle
Cleric: Fighter missing a point of bab and two hit points, but gets cause fear a couple of times a day and cure minor a couple of times a day.  Also gets a domain power or three.
Wizard: Hey guys!  I have sleep and improved initiative as a bonus feat at level 1!
Archivist: I'm a cleric that gets to give you guys bonuses based off knowledge checks and has slightly lower hp!
Dread Necro: I don't get a first level feat, but I get unlimited healing and cause fear or whatever :D
Beguiler: I'm better than the wizard :D

Sorcerer: I'm like the wizard, but I don't get a bonus feat :/
Psion: I'm like those guys, but instead of ending encounters I just get entangling ray :/

Warblade: I actually care about AC and charge lanes...  My best attack is to attack two people at once.  I still care about HP and AC :/

It's sorta like that.

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #150 on: July 27, 2009, 05:10:20 AM »
But... Once my Erudite does get Arcane Fusion & later Greater Arcane Fusion he's going to be playing that same fiddle...
You aren't addressing either of our arguments.  Stop straw manning.

Samb

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #151 on: July 27, 2009, 05:17:45 AM »
After 7 pages you have not convinced anyone that erudite is indeed a shitty class.  So either you are wrong, bad at expressing your ideas, or both.

I personally would never play it and I do think it is kind of a mess mechanically (I personally prefer psions), but to say it that it doesn't fit the bill of a tier one by JaronK's definition is just silly.  You can throw out all the cheese you want but nothing changes the fact that by RAW, erudite has more to offer than psions.  I try not to let my personal biases get in the way of rational debate.  You should try that some time and maybe you would not have to name calling, dropping cluster f-bombs, or taking wikiwalks when engaging in debates.

You fail debating.  Go failbate yourself.

Hey that's kinda catchy eh?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:19:44 AM by Samb »

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #152 on: July 27, 2009, 05:27:35 AM »
After 7 pages you have not convinced anyone that erudite is indeed a shitty class.  So either you are wrong, bad at expressing your ideas, or both.

I personally would never play it and I do think it is kind of a mess mechanically (I personally prefer psions), but to say it that it doesn't fit the bill of a tier one by JaronK's definition is just silly.  You can throw out all the cheese you want but nothing changes the fact that by RAW, erudite has more to offer than psions.  I try not to let my personal biases get in the way of rational debate.  You should try that some time and maybe you would not have to name calling, dropping cluster f-bombs, or taking wikiwalks when engaging in debates.
You're contradicting yourself.  If the class wasn't shitty, there would be a chance you'd play it (because it's not a shitty class).

And you're REALLY bad at vitriol.  I suggest you read some more vitriolic sites in order to learn proper vitriol.  I've  been ignoring it so far because my 14 year old sister is better at it than you.  As a general rule, you add in just enough cursing that people think that you're cursing, but not enough that people just skim your post.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4638.0

Just, so you know.  This kind of stuff is frowned upon now. Openly telling someone that they are stupid is fine, but using memes and such...
It's weak and makes everyone know just how stupid you are.  So, yeah.  Good luck.  I hope to hear from you again real soon.  Hopefully you'll be able to insult me better than my kid sister then.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:30:35 AM by The Lurker »

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #153 on: July 27, 2009, 05:36:19 AM »
I'm going to attempt to simplify my stance the easiest way possible while maintaining what it's structure is and I'd request you do the same after me so that we can refresh our points.

The Erudite is a powerful class in that it possesses access to all base psionic powers (and 8th level & lower discipline powers) as well as all 8th level & lower arcane spells. To argue that the Sorcerer's spell selection is greater seems void as the Erudite has access to that same spell selection (except for 9th level spells). The Erudite contains an unmatched versatility & adaptability when compared to a Sorcerer from an in-house* perspective. What I will concede is that the Sorcerer's 9th level spells are better than an Erudite's 9th level powers and that the Sorcerer is much better in gaining techniques to alter their base power (prestige classes, alternate class features, feats, ect...).

*I use the term in-house to represent only staying within the confines of the character (no equipment or outside assistance)

Wrong.

I'm not if we go off this quantifier:
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

I'd say that the tier system is biased towards end game power more than beginning or medium game power.

Stop straw manning.

How about a deal? I'll stop using my fallacies if you stop using yours? Fair enough?

You're contradicting yourself.  If the class wasn't shitty, there would be a chance you'd play it (because it's not a shitty class).

Untrue, a player's personal preference can (and typically will) overtake a player's position of what to play. It's probably the reason why every optimizer doesn't always play either a Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, or an Artificer.

As a general rule, you add in just enough cursing that people think that you're cursing, but not enough that people just skim your post.

That is a horrible communication technique.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:47:02 AM by dark_samuari »

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #154 on: July 27, 2009, 05:47:54 AM »
I'm ignoring the irrelevant parts of your post.
I'm not if we go off this quantifier:
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

I'd say that the tier system is biased towards end game power more than beginning or medium game power.
Well, that's a good point.  You're right.  Allow me to revise my statement:
The Tiers are just as retarded as JaronK.  Erudite is a shitty class, but it ranks high on theoretical fap fap.  It's shitty in practice and amazing in theory.

Does this work?
Quote
As a general rule, you add in just enough cursing that people think that you're cursing, but not enough that people just skim your post.

That is a horrible communication technique.
If someone's going to try to flame, they should do it right.  It's just terrible that someone presumably older and smarter than my little sister (she's the dumb one of the family) is worse at actively insulting someone than her.  That's like being beaten by a cripple, and it's just sad.

Samb

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #155 on: July 27, 2009, 05:53:29 AM »
After 7 pages you have not convinced anyone that erudite is indeed a shitty class.  So either you are wrong, bad at expressing your ideas, or both.

I personally would never play it and I do think it is kind of a mess mechanically (I personally prefer psions), but to say it that it doesn't fit the bill of a tier one by JaronK's definition is just silly.  You can throw out all the cheese you want but nothing changes the fact that by RAW, erudite has more to offer than psions.  I try not to let my personal biases get in the way of rational debate.  You should try that some time and maybe you would not have to name calling, dropping cluster f-bombs, or taking wikiwalks when engaging in debates.
You're contradicting yourself.  If the class wasn't shitty, there would be a chance you'd play it (because it's not a shitty class).

And you're REALLY bad at vitriol.  I suggest you read some more vitriolic sites in order to learn proper vitriol.  I've  been ignoring it so far because my 14 year old sister is better at it than you.  As a general rule, you add in just enough cursing that people think that you're cursing, but not enough that people just skim your post.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4638.0

Just, so you know.  This kind of stuff is frowned upon now. Openly telling someone that they are stupid is fine, but using memes and such...
It's weak and makes everyone know just how stupid you are.  So, yeah.  Good luck.  I hope to hear from you again real soon.  Hopefully you'll be able to insult me better than my kid sister then.
Well i don't play clerics either but i still think they are a good class and deserve to be tier one, so no i don't think I contradicted myself.  I just don't want to play them.  I don't want to play wizards either should I start a thread "wizards are shitty!"?

Here's another meme for you GIFT.  

And being better at vitriol hasn't helped your cause, which was kinda of my fucking point when I fucking put "fucking" in the middle of every fucking word you fucktard.  

It would be one thing if you expressed you ideas in a logical and convincing way and was very vitriolic but you failed to achieve that.  Well having valid points helps also.  You have almost eight pages of no one agreeing with you so by logic, I'd say you failed to convince us of your ideas.  

Yet another meme for you: you fail debating forever.

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #156 on: July 27, 2009, 05:57:48 AM »
Well i don't play clerics either but i still think they are a good class and deserve to be tier one, so no i don't think I contradicted myself.  I just don't want to play them.  I don't want to play wizards either should I start a thread "wizards are shitty!"?

Here's another meme for you GIFT.  

And being better at vitriol hasn't helped your cause, which was kinda of my fucking point when I fucking put "fucking" in the middle of every fucking word you fucktard.  

It would be one thing if you expressed you ideas in a logical and convincing way and was very vitriolic but you failed to achieve that.  Well having valid points helps also.  You have almost eight pages of no one agreeing with you so by logic, I'd say you failed to convince us of your ideas.  

Yet another meme for you: you fail debating forever.
You don't get it, do you?  You're stupid and you should feel stupid.  In the original post there's not a single F bomb.  I used it twice total in the entire first page.  The fact that you imagined a whole bunch of F bombs means that you are delusional and should seek medical help.

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #157 on: July 27, 2009, 06:00:15 AM »
I'm ignoring the irrelevant parts of your post.

I'll count that as a forfeit on my behalf as a failure on your behalf to provide a counter.

Well, that's a good point.  You're right.  Allow me to revise my statement:
The Tiers are just as retarded as JaronK.  Erudite is a shitty class, but it ranks high on theoretical fap fap.  It's shitty in practice and amazing in theory.

Does this work?

That perspective works completely well in any case where you aren't citing & using the very same tier system to make claims with.

If someone's going to try to flame, they should do it right.

I think the generally accepted opinion is that one should overall attempt to avoid flaming an individual if possible, but I guess that would go against your style, right?

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #158 on: July 27, 2009, 06:02:59 AM »
I'm ignoring the irrelevant parts of your post.

I'll count that as a forfeit on my behalf as a failure on your behalf to provide a counter.
If that makes you feel good, sure.  But I'm not going to address things I feel I've already covered competently.
Quote
Well, that's a good point.  You're right.  Allow me to revise my statement:
The Tiers are just as retarded as JaronK.  Erudite is a shitty class, but it ranks high on theoretical fap fap.  It's shitty in practice and amazing in theory.

Does this work?

That perspective works completely well in any case where you aren't citing & using the very same tier system to make claims with.
Read the OP.  I'm not.
Quote
If someone's going to try to flame, they should do it right.

I think the generally accepted opinion is that one should overall attempt to avoid flaming an individual if possible, but I guess that would go against your style, right?
If you're going to do anything, you should do it to the best of your ability.  To do anything less is just stupid.

Samb

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #159 on: July 27, 2009, 06:04:53 AM »
Well i don't play clerics either but i still think they are a good class and deserve to be tier one, so no i don't think I contradicted myself.  I just don't want to play them.  I don't want to play wizards either should I start a thread "wizards are shitty!"?

Here's another meme for you GIFT.  

And being better at vitriol hasn't helped your cause, which was kinda of my fucking point when I fucking put "fucking" in the middle of every fucking word you fucktard.  

It would be one thing if you expressed you ideas in a logical and convincing way and was very vitriolic but you failed to achieve that.  Well having valid points helps also.  You have almost eight pages of no one agreeing with you so by logic, I'd say you failed to convince us of your ideas.  

Yet another meme for you: you fail debating forever.
You don't get it, do you?  You're stupid and you should feel stupid.  In the original post there's not a single F bomb.  I used it twice total in the entire first page.  The fact that you imagined a whole bunch of F bombs means that you are delusional and should seek medical help.
GIFT and now ad hominem!!!!
Wow you are a treasure trove of tropes.  You should have your own page.  What does your opinion of me have to do erudite again?

Sorry I baited you into this, but like momma always said "logic is wasted on the illogical".