Author Topic: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well  (Read 64226 times)

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Barbarossa

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #120 on: December 26, 2010, 04:56:02 AM »
That just means that you're not doing your job as a dungeon master. If one player is hogging all the fun and glory, fix the encounter. Boost the enemy's saves. Make them counterspell demons. Find something that makes the game fun for the other players. The game is only biased towards wizards if you make it that way.

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #121 on: December 26, 2010, 05:08:56 AM »
That just means that you're not doing your job as a dungeon master. If one player is hogging all the fun and glory, fix the encounter. Boost the enemy's saves. Make them counterspell demons. Find something that makes the game fun for the other players. The game is only biased towards wizards if you make it that way.

You are kidding right? No where in that post did I say he's hogging the fun. Quite the contrary; the others are actually enjoying the curbstomping he enables. The point I made is that he's removing the Challenge from Challenge Rating (not that this is a spectacular task). He's taking on CR 5's with a Fiendish Ape augmented by his feats and Malconvoker PrC. I'm able to challenge him if I want to (quite easily, seeing as I helped him build the character and have access to literally every trick he has). I don't want to because he's yet to ruin the fun.

The game is biased towards Spellcasters. Who else can get Planar Travel? Who else can craft magic items without taking some ridiculously overpriced PrC? Who else can literally double their WBL without exploiting infinite loops? Who else can bypass entire encounters 17 CRs above their ECL?


Fact: Levitate>Big T.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #122 on: December 26, 2010, 05:21:00 AM »
Sinfire I think the concern from some of us would be that while the other players may enjoy his services are you spreading out all the challenges so that each player is contributing?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 05:37:55 AM by dark_samuari »

Bester

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #123 on: December 26, 2010, 05:27:03 AM »
The rest of the party doesn't even have to do anything: He just casts spells like Grease, Glitterdust, and Web, then lets a Summon Monster 3 do the dirty work. He's doing the work of a 7 person party by himself!

If the party is cool with that and you are cool with that, I don't see a problem.  If you aren't cool with that, why did you let him play as one in the first place?  I always wanted to try one myself after reading the awesome guide to mastering that prc.

We have a greasy web sorc//pal (it's standard bfc) in the party and he doesn't overly do it (mainly because he can't cast it a large amount of times).  He has this thing about caltrops (weaker bfc) and man was he ever so pleased when we switched to Pathfinder and he got his unlimited caltrops (short duration) cantrips.  I laugh and taunt him to just keep dropping caltrops as he walks around in the story parts.  We are not holding him to the whole paladin thing because we (the collective dm) are cool.

We just don't do the summons thing for campaign (no summons from off prime) and bookkeeping reasons.  I guess that is important to say.  Summons break the action economy hard.  I have never actually used them in any of my games for the simple fact that they are too good, in fact I completely forgot about them.  Pretty much the campaign we were playing 2 campaigns ago ended because of raise dead (which is summons that stay).

It went something like this:  "I'm beating you up with a hydra!"-the dm.  "I'm a druid" player 1.  "I'm a cleric" player 2.  "I'm a wizard" player 3.  It dies hard even tho it is way to hard for us by CR.  "I'm a cleric, I'm a necro wizard, not just a wizard.  Let's raise it..one desecrate later...  I bought some weird stones that mr. dm never asked me about whyfor was I buying them!  We raise a zombie hydra...did we win D&D yet?" -seriously, that's how it went down.  I helped a little by pointing out that they could raise a zombie hyrda...oops.

Actually, they flubbed it and lost the hydra in an epic battle...in which the other much more experienced pcs (number of games wise) saved their bacon with tier 3 classes (honestly, I was borderline tier 2).  Apparently zombie hydras aren't good battering rams (mobility issues) and a little stealth and teamwork goes a long way with tier 3s.

Man, that was an awesome 2 part game that I completely forgot about!  This 'new' (60+ games in) game is just way too much fun.  I should totally rerun that scenario and see if they remember it.

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #124 on: December 26, 2010, 06:21:12 AM »
Sinfire I think the concern from some of us would be that while the other players may enjoy his services are you spreading out all the challenges so that each player is contributing?

Actually yes. One of the reasons the Malconvoker is so effective is because he has a Dwarf Barbarian and a Swordsage using Bull Rush/Setting Sun to horde the enemies into one place, then letting the Ranger (and the Cleric Archer) pick them off while the Summon/Dwarf/Swordsage keep them at a distance. The NPC Warblade's the only one who doesn't make major contributions, but he's not relevant to anything anyway (and that's how I'm keeping him, seeing as I'm the one using him). They do have some synergy.

It basically went from "We need to hire a Cleric because half of the party nearly gets gibbed every encounter" to "Large number of enemies? Horde them up and let's take them down".



The problem is that two of the players are also former DMs. Of the "I put the pain in campaign" variety. One of which is the Malconvoker himself...


[spoiler][/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #125 on: December 26, 2010, 06:28:08 AM »
That just means that you're not doing your job as a dungeon master. If one player is hogging all the fun and glory, fix the encounter. Boost the enemy's saves. Make them counterspell demons. Find something that makes the game fun for the other players. The game is only biased towards wizards if you make it that way.

You are kidding right? No where in that post did I say he's hogging the fun. Quite the contrary; the others are actually enjoying the curbstomping he enables. The point I made is that he's removing the Challenge from Challenge Rating (not that this is a spectacular task). He's taking on CR 5's with a Fiendish Ape augmented by his feats and Malconvoker PrC. I'm able to challenge him if I want to (quite easily, seeing as I helped him build the character and have access to literally every trick he has). I don't want to because he's yet to ruin the fun.

The game is biased towards Spellcasters. Who else can get Planar Travel? Who else can craft magic items without taking some ridiculously overpriced PrC? Who else can literally double their WBL without exploiting infinite loops? Who else can bypass entire encounters 17 CRs above their ECL?


Fact: Levitate>Big T.
Pretty much.

I think maybe a maturity test for competent players  who want to be casters may be due. Heh. Easiest way really.
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Bester

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #126 on: December 26, 2010, 06:36:37 AM »
The problem is that two of the players are also former DMs. Of the "I put the pain in campaign" variety. One of which is the Malconvoker himself...

It's kind of like he's a mini-dm thanks to magic.  I would fear for my normal non-battle npcs if I didn't trust the player.  What's to stop him from summoning a CR 7 encounter for the baker and his wife?  Oh, he's a good guy...thank goodness!!!  For a second there I thought he was going to make off with their life savings (50gp)

A fighter could never ever do that.  Neither could a TOB class.  They'd end up fighting the town guard while the malconvoker moved on to take down the entire city guard.

I still love magic.  It's just magic man, don't try to fix it!!!  It's like what makes D&D....D&D.

dark_samuari

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #127 on: December 26, 2010, 06:53:24 AM »
I recently had a discussion with one of my players who had been going against me in all the games I ran because he was taught DnD by a Gygaxian DM.

I had to reveal to him that I am not a Gygaxian GM but because of my background in improv comedy am much more interested in cooperative storytelling.

I think our games will be much better now.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #128 on: December 26, 2010, 10:40:23 AM »
That just means that you're not doing your job as a dungeon master. If one player is hogging all the fun and glory, fix the encounter. Boost the enemy's saves. Make them counterspell demons. Find something that makes the game fun for the other players. The game is only biased towards wizards if you make it that way.

Hi Welcome

High saves still mean casters win.

Thanks for playing!
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weenog

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #129 on: December 26, 2010, 11:17:19 AM »
That just means that you're not doing your job as a dungeon master. If one player is hogging all the fun and glory, fix the encounter. Boost the enemy's saves. Make them counterspell demons. Find something that makes the game fun for the other players. The game is only biased towards wizards if you make it that way.

Hi Welcome

High saves still mean casters win.

Thanks for playing!

I agree with you, but you're doing that lazy jackass thing again, Sunic.  Explain to the kid (or sock) why casters still win when enemies have high saving throws, first.
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #130 on: December 26, 2010, 01:15:31 PM »
Why? He's done the math. It isn't theory, it's statistical fact.

Sorry, but as a Biology major, this line annoys me. 

I know what most people use the word "theory" to mean, but in science, a theory holds more weight than a law or fact.  Theories don't get to be theories without extensive testing and re-testing.  A theory is as close to proving something as you can get.

So, that should read "He's done the math.  It isn't a hypothesis, it's statistical fact". :teach

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Shadowhunter

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #131 on: December 26, 2010, 02:16:20 PM »
A bit late to the bonfire party down by the train wreck, but I hope I'm in time for seconds :p

The problem isn't with just the game, it's with the gamers.
If the entire group as well as the DM is cool with some party members pulling more weight than others, there's no need to adjust encounters or house-rule stuff.
You can throw the entire brigade of Orcs at those level 4 characters, since you know that 2 Greenbound summons and 3 entangle later they'll be manageable, even if the Druid is pulling more weight than the Warlock.

If the entire group want to feel like they're pulling equal weight, there's 1 of 3 things that can be done:
1. Everyone plays classes that can pull equal weight.
2. The DM starts making encounters that the weaker classes can start contributing more (see the earlier comment on monks, mobility and rockslides).
3. The more powerful classes hold back.

Guess what?
Nothing of the above is the wrong approach.

The problem arise when:
1. Some people want to play certain classes or concepts that aren't mechanically viable/inferior by normal standards (let's say normal standards = Tier 3).
They get angry, envious, sulky or some other kind of negative attitude when they realize they're not the big guns. They can't handle that and whine that the other classes are "powergamers" or "muchkins" or perhaps just sits quietly not doing any roleplaying at all, sulking.
What do I know, there's plenty of different ways to express this.
Less politically correct members would probably call this "small penis syndrome" but you won't be hearing that from me ;)

I had this situation once where I....
[spoiler]DM'ed a players with a lvl 1 Ninja. I told him Ninjas weren't good and that you could do the concept with another class, but he said he didn't care. Now, given his rather stupid tactical decisions, this Ninja was rather suboptimal even by Ninja standards. Applying poison to a shuriken _in combat_ with no training in doing so (that's a full-round action doing nothing and risking poisoning himself). Running straight down a glass-covered road after being seen by guards armed with crossbows (and I asked him explicitly if he tried to dodge in behind a building. He answered "no, I run straight down the road.
He managed the balance check to not fall, but the two crossbow bolts that landed him at -7 HP he couldn't handle.) and other stunts like these two brilliant ideas...
[/spoiler]

2. People playing weaker builds realize just how much the DM adjust in their favor, feeling like they can't do things properly without help.
This is objectively true, but the reaction to this situation can both be positive and negative.

3. The stronger builds get shit so that the weaker classes can feel better.
This is what seems to be the most common past occurrence for many people in this topic, which might explain their attitude towards the topic at hand.
I can personally take having a bit harder stuff thrown at me if I play something more powerful than my friends. It happened once when we were forced to partake in gladiatorial combat. My opponent had better stats than the other two, since I played a cleric and the rest of the party was a Bard and a Evoker Wizard. I didn't mind.
HOWEVER.
There's a lot of bad DM's, which thinks "shitting on good builds = promoting bad ones" which isn't true.
Due to vastly different experiences with this sort of thing, some people associate suggestions like "challenge the wizard more (implied: so that he has to work harder for it and not just solo everything)" as "let's give a lame-ass excuse to shit on the caster". Which, given their less-than-competent DMs, isn't so suprising.
Challenging Casters = Good.
Shitting on Casters = Bad.
Challenging Casters in a way that kills non-casters= Bad.
Challenging Casters in a way that doesn't mean dead non-casters = Very Difficult to Near Impossible.

4. The problem with more powerful builds holding back is that they might feel like their options are being limited. While this is objectively true, it is a matter of perception whether or not they feel like this is a bad thing. Attitude.

Now, to set some things straight:
Casters > Non-casters. No one in this entire 7 page discussion have claimed that non-casters can equal casters in power.

More encounters does not mean more strain on the casters than on the non-casters, unless said non-casters have infinite supply of resources (HP, smites, rages). Then one might argue that you give infinite resources to all but 1 player, which is unfair. The chance that he appreciate this "anti-favoritism" is abysmal.

More difficult encounters means more strain on the casters, but unless crafted VERY WELL, will prove a lot more straining for the non-casters.
Casters have solutions to every encounter. HOWEVER, here comes something I like to call the Boyscout Fallacy (their motto is "Always prepared", so I find the name suitable).

Quote from: Me
The Boyscout Fallacy states that even though casters probably have a spell as a solution for any situation, they might not have that spell available at the moment it's needed. Barring COP TO-cheese, there's a possibility that a certain encounter can not be handled optimally with 1 spell, since there is no 100% certainty that the caster have prepared said spell. The other version, for spontaneous ones, is that casters can probably squeeze out any of their known spells that can handle a situation, IF the situation is one where it can be optimally handled by a spell known. This might not always be the case.

That said, there are a lot of different encounters that can be solved near-optimally with a selection of very useful and versatile spells, or spells that just are very powerful. This goes for both prepared and spontaneous casters.
Preparation, planning and scouting (magic or otherwise) all help to pick out the most optimal spell selection for the ones that prepare spells.

But it's not always a 100% guaranteed fact that the casters can handle the situation optimally with the spells they currently have access to.
Handle optimally does not necessarily equal just 1 round of casting, but it might.


Whether or not a player group or the wizard player himself find it acceptable for their DM to change some things in the upcoming battle just so that the wizard can not trivialize it by himself, is totally up to the persons involved. You cannot say that this is "Good DM'ing" any more you can say it's "Rampart Douchbaggery". That depends 100% entirely upon the gaming group themselves and their attitudes towards this. There is no objective truth here, it's only a matter of perception.

"Oh, so he spread them out and mixed the opposition so I can't handle it with 1 spell. Interesting, I like a challenge, let's try this tactic then / God damn, he's mixing stuff up just to mess with me, fuck, this isn't fair. I can't handle this".
Same situation, different attitudes. I could go on, but I don't think I need to.


Now for a personal opinion:
Casters trivializing encounters with 1 spell is something that happens a lot. I find this at times annoying, but have learned to cope. It does not mean that EVERY SINGLE ENCOUNTER ALWAYS CAN BE HANDLED WITH 1 SPELL. Just a lot of times. The limit for "one too many times" vary, some react after the first time it happens, some won't react ever. Something to keep in mind when discussing stuff like this.




Long post is long, but I really couldn't shorten it down without risking to be misunderstood.
Will probably happen anyway, but I'm a min-maxer, I try to Maximize my viewpoint and Minimize misunderstandings. ;)
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Barbarossa

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #132 on: December 26, 2010, 02:40:04 PM »
Hi Welcome

High saves still mean casters win.

Thanks for playing!
That was a singular example. There are other methods you can use. Until casters get to much higher levels, Antimagic Field does wonders, as does giving most enemies at least a low amount of SR. Give enemies a really high touch AC to help them dodge touch spells. Evasion helps with area spells.

you're doing that lazy jackass thing again, Sunic.
I agree.

Explain to the kid (or sock) why casters still win when enemies have high saving throws, first.
I don't appreciate being called a sock.

weenog

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #133 on: December 26, 2010, 03:40:45 PM »
Define "much higher levels", please.  Acid Fog is available as early as Antimagic Field, allows no saving throw no matter how high yours is, doesn't even check for spell resistance, deals damage (iow kills mooks and requires concentration checks to cast spells), and more importantly functions as battlefield control.  Oh, and Acid Fog doesn't center on yourself and shut down your own ability to cast.

I'd also like to hear how you intend to give enemies nigh untouchable high touch ACs without putting their standard ACs outside the reach of the non casters to handle.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 03:42:53 PM by weenog »
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Barbarossa

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #134 on: December 26, 2010, 04:03:05 PM »
Yes, Acid Fog is available to players as soon as the players get antimagic field. Your monsters and villains can easily get it way before then, and it is very effective at stopping such spells as Magic Missile, Fireball, illusions, dominate person, and more. Asides from that, the fog is magically summoned, and thus winks out in an antimagic field because it cannot possibly succeed on its Spell Resistance check, having none.

You don't have to give enemies nigh untouchable touch AC. You just have to make their AC's fairly equal. Shield Ward is a good feat for this. In addition, many mundane characters are decent flankers, which would lower this 'untouchable' AC to levels that they and the caster can both hit.

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #135 on: December 26, 2010, 05:07:19 PM »
There are only two kinds of enemies that can use AMF effectively: Beholders and Dragons.  Beholders use it effectively because it's not really an AMF, it's a cone that they aim at the pesky spellcaster while they throw things at them with telekinesis (and maybe deal with the other party members at the same time).

Dragons can do it effectively because they're goddamn dragons.  Even without magic, dragons are extremely capable foes.

Trying to use AMF against casters with nearly any other enemy results in that enemy having just shut themselves down while the casters walk out of the field and blast with Instantaneous Conjurations (which fly right through the field to the now defenseless enemy).
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 05:09:59 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #136 on: December 26, 2010, 05:08:45 PM »
Psions, psychic warriors, and ardents all use antimagic fields quite well, as well.

But that's because they can metamorphosis into beholders and use Metamorphic Transfer. :p
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #137 on: December 26, 2010, 08:15:38 PM »
That just means that you're not doing your job as a dungeon master. If one player is hogging all the fun and glory, fix the encounter. Boost the enemy's saves. Make them counterspell demons. Find something that makes the game fun for the other players. The game is only biased towards wizards if you make it that way.

Hi Welcome

High saves still mean casters win.

Thanks for playing!

I agree with you, but you're doing that lazy jackass thing again, Sunic.  Explain to the kid (or sock) why casters still win when enemies have high saving throws, first.

Already done that. He needs to RTFM.

Hi Welcome

High saves still mean casters win.

Thanks for playing!
That was a singular example. There are other methods you can use. Until casters get to much higher levels, Antimagic Field does wonders, as does giving most enemies at least a low amount of SR. Give enemies a really high touch AC to help them dodge touch spells. Evasion helps with area spells.

Except that AMF is a high level spell, and the stuff that foils it is lower level, so you still fail.

And unless you define a low amount of SR as about level + 20 or so it won't do a single thing.

And who is using Evadable area spells?
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #138 on: December 26, 2010, 08:19:06 PM »
Sunic, I have no idea who you are, but you're being really obtuse. Being the Dungeon Master, you can have the enemies do anything. If you really feel the need to explain it, say that the low level kobolds using the AMF-spawning grenade found it in a wizard's tower. If you don't, just call it goddamn magic and get it over with.

weenog

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #139 on: December 26, 2010, 08:25:05 PM »
Sunic, I have no idea who you are, but you're being really obtuse. Being the Dungeon Master, you can have the enemies do anything. If you really feel the need to explain it, say that the low level kobolds using the AMF-spawning grenade found it in a wizard's tower. If you don't, just call it goddamn magic and get it over with.
And how much do you adjust the encounter level when you do this?
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."