Author Topic: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well  (Read 63236 times)

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lans

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #260 on: January 05, 2011, 09:05:03 PM »
I said decent encounter. That means not solo enemies you beat down via 4-6 actions to 1.
I find that multiple creature encounters tend to get shut down more than a single creature due to lower saves, hp and resistances. But even if you only get 2 out of 4 enemies the remaining two are a lot less of a threat than a larger enemy would of been. But I haven't had two much experiance in that area as of late.

Quote
Also, most characters in D&D cannot protect anyone, even themselves. Fewer still can protect others.
  Some can, some can be a threat that has to be dealt with. Chasing the fighter down means the pouncing whirling frenzy shock trooper barbarian is going to fucking kill you, if you move upto and hit him he can't charge and kill you.
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #261 on: January 05, 2011, 09:06:03 PM »
Can he still stand in place and kill you?

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #262 on: January 05, 2011, 11:04:06 PM »
Colossal dragon vs medium gnome?
I know a certain kobold that could *ahem* successfully grapple a Colossal-sized dragon despite being Small, even at level 2.

Hint: It's not Pun-Pun.

I guess Tiny von BigMcLargeHuge uses his hammerspace for more than just a maul.
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veekie

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #263 on: January 05, 2011, 11:19:12 PM »
^^
How is his...unarmed strike looking?

Can he still stand in place and kill you?
Perfectly well. just with less overkill.

But multiple creature encounters are going to be that much more taxing on a party dependent on melee. Melee boys LOVE single huge high CR monster because of the chance of oneshotting it with massive damage(which, is more or less their main schtick), whereas a large number of just under CR opponents means it takes that much more time to hurt them and they can dish it out in the meantime.
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lans

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #264 on: January 05, 2011, 11:29:42 PM »

But multiple creature encounters are going to be that much more taxing on a party dependent on melee. Melee boys LOVE single huge high CR monster because of the chance of oneshotting it with massive damage(which, is more or less their main schtick), whereas a large number of just under CR opponents means it takes that much more time to hurt them and they can dish it out in the meantime.
As a 7th level fighter, barbarian, or warblade I would rather face 4 medium elementals than 1 huge one.

Can he still stand in place and kill you?

Less likely, the barbarian loses 50% of his power attacking power, with it being taken from his attack rather than his AC, and his overall damage is halved due to not having Valorous kick in.
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veekie

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #265 on: January 06, 2011, 12:08:54 AM »
4 Medium elementals means you lock down one, while the other three saunter past you and start whaling on your squishies. By the time you kill the first one(which can take 1-2 rounds, depending on how they engage and luck), the others have that time to pester the party or set up a 4 way flank.
In the case of Air and Earth, their movement modes means if they play hit and run you'd be left with a standard readied attack. Which doesn't kill them very effectively.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
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There is no higher price than 'free'.

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lans

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #266 on: January 06, 2011, 01:14:56 AM »
4 Medium elementals means you lock down one, while the other three saunter past you and start whaling on your squishies. By the time you kill the first one(which can take 1-2 rounds, depending on how they engage and luck), the others have that time to pester the party or set up a 4 way flank.
In the case of Air and Earth, their movement modes means if they play hit and run you'd be left with a standard readied attack. Which doesn't kill them very effectively.


The elementals have 26-30 hp, which so d10+9 from strength,+1 from a magic weapon and they go down in 2 hits.
They deal 4.5, 8, 8.5 and 11.5 with an attack bonus of +6-8 so they hit about 50% of the time. ACs of about 18.
You should be able to deal with these by your self, with out too much difficulty. With only the earth elemental being a real problem, due to its movement mode.

Earth elementals can't really play hit and run, and medium air elementals have to deal with reach. As opposed to a huge air elemental that just flyby attacks until you die.
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veekie

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #267 on: January 06, 2011, 03:14:13 AM »
^^
Correct...in a duel environment.
Note that while you can kill one in two hits, this takes 2 rounds(Charge, then full attack) unless the elemental opens with engaging the tank  or if the tank is using superior reach(in which case its much the same except harder for the elemental to withdraw).
The issue is that unlike a single large foe, the fighter is not successfully stonewalling the opponents, and by being able to get around, this costs more party resources.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #268 on: January 06, 2011, 02:27:04 PM »
I said decent encounter. That means not solo enemies you beat down via 4-6 actions to 1.
I find that multiple creature encounters tend to get shut down more than a single creature due to lower saves, hp and resistances. But even if you only get 2 out of 4 enemies the remaining two are a lot less of a threat than a larger enemy would of been. But I haven't had two much experiance in that area as of late.

Sometimes true, sometimes not. The point is that when fighting multiple enemies one can cripple you and another can kill you while you're gimped. You know, just like the PCs.

Quote
Also, most characters in D&D cannot protect anyone, even themselves. Fewer still can protect others.
  Some can, some can be a threat that has to be dealt with. Chasing the fighter down means the pouncing whirling frenzy shock trooper barbarian is going to fucking kill you, if you move upto and hit him he can't charge and kill you.

[/quote]

Any half decent charger will have a means to charge you even if you are close, so not really. And a party with two gimpy beatsticks? Really?
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #269 on: January 06, 2011, 02:41:13 PM »
Earth elementals can't really play hit and run, and medium air elementals have to deal with reach. As opposed to a huge air elemental that just flyby attacks until you die.
Earth Elementals do hit-and-run better than Airs do.  Diving into a solid object means they can leave unharassed whenever they wish on top of being nearly untouchable on anyone ele's turn.
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lans

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #270 on: January 06, 2011, 06:41:38 PM »
Earth elementals can't really play hit and run, and medium air elementals have to deal with reach. As opposed to a huge air elemental that just flyby attacks until you die.
Earth Elementals do hit-and-run better than Airs do.  Diving into a solid object means they can leave unharassed whenever they wish on top of being nearly untouchable on anyone ele's turn.
Not as statted, if they had spring attack they would be. As is they pop out of ground punch, then get full attacked.

Air elementals punch outside of the reach of almost everybody and its DR pretty much rules out a melee character plinking it with a bow. Or they could just go above the person and full attack them.
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #271 on: January 06, 2011, 06:44:12 PM »
Earth Elemental = always partially in ground for cover, auto attack, 5 foot step into ground. Round 2 5 foot step out, auto attack again. Sure it can be full attacked now, but the fight is over by that point. And unlike Spring Attack, it doesn't dropkick their DPS.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #272 on: January 06, 2011, 06:45:07 PM »
Or the Earth just sits in the ground and attacks from directly underneath.  It has Tremorsense, so locating enemies isn't an issue.
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #273 on: January 06, 2011, 08:07:16 PM »
I guess it could do that, I apparently am not up to snuff on burrowing rules.
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #274 on: January 06, 2011, 08:26:31 PM »
Or the Earth just sits in the ground and attacks from directly underneath.  It has Tremorsense, so locating enemies isn't an issue.

Good point. Does tremorsense bypass total concealment or no?
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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lans

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #275 on: January 06, 2011, 08:47:58 PM »
Ok, can we get past the stupidity with Tarrasque style fail and accept that the fucking dragons are not Dominate bait due to immunity already?

No, looking at dragons statted out by wizards in the Draconomicon
CR 14,16,18,19, 20, and 22 black dragons do not have protection versus dominate monster.

CR 19+ Blue dragons do.

CR 21+ Brass dragons do.
CR 21 and 23 bronze dragons have mind blank.
Copper has no protection.
Gold is well protected with it having pro evil from CR14 on.
Green lacks protection at CR 21
Red is lacks protection at CR 20, 21,23,24 and 25
Silver lacks protection at CR 18, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25
White  have protection at CR 17



Dragons seem to value True Strike, Magic Missile, and Color Sprayl more than I would expect.

So by no means are dragons as a group immune to Dominate Monster.
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #276 on: January 06, 2011, 09:02:15 PM »
Or the Earth just sits in the ground and attacks from directly underneath.  It has Tremorsense, so locating enemies isn't an issue.

Good point. Does tremorsense bypass total concealment or no?
No idea.  Even if it doesn't, the Earth elemental still has almost (if not) total cover even when attacking and only suffers a 50% miss chance on its attacks.  Even readied actions to attack it will be rather ineffective.  So, if Tremorsense doesn't beat Concealment (I don't see why it wouldn't, honestly.  The Earth Elemental knows exactly where the feet are), then yes, the Earth Elemental is less effective.  It's still pretty close to being invincible.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 09:03:48 PM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #277 on: January 06, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »
Or the Earth just sits in the ground and attacks from directly underneath.  It has Tremorsense, so locating enemies isn't an issue.

Good point. Does tremorsense bypass total concealment or no?

Tremorsense. Yes, it does. So long as the creature is touching the ground, is within range, and is capable of taking physical actions the elemental automatically knows where it is. So, earth elementals nut-punching you from the floor = totally legit.

Ok, can we get past the stupidity with Tarrasque style fail and accept that the fucking dragons are not Dominate bait due to immunity already?

No, looking at dragons statted out by wizards in the Draconomicon
CR 14,16,18,19, 20, and 22 black dragons do not have protection versus dominate monster.

CR 19+ Blue dragons do.

CR 21+ Brass dragons do.
CR 21 and 23 bronze dragons have mind blank.
Copper has no protection.
Gold is well protected with it having pro evil from CR14 on.
Green lacks protection at CR 21
Red is lacks protection at CR 20, 21,23,24 and 25
Silver lacks protection at CR 18, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25
White  have protection at CR 17



Dragons seem to value True Strike, Magic Missile, and Color Sprayl more than I would expect.

So by no means are dragons as a group immune to Dominate Monster.

Because all dragons everywhere have the same identical write-up, and the DM is incapable of changing their spell selection and itemization. :rollseyes

The fact that Wizards authors don't know their own game system is well-known. It's also irrelevant. Their incompetence in creating sample creatures does not in any way invalidate the fact that true dragons, as a class, can easily acquire immunity to the entire Enchantment school, and should be assumed to have it. Whether it be from spells or items (which they have in abundance). Continuous-use protection from blah is 2,000 gp. Slap that on a ring of protection and it actually gets cheaper.

Incidentally, they also have dragons with Dex 10 and Combat Reflexes, if you wanted more proof of their staggering ineptitude at their own game.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 09:26:38 PM by Echoes »
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lans

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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #278 on: January 06, 2011, 09:27:48 PM »
The worst part of it is that CR 7 earth elementals are hard enough to tank with out them punching through 10 feet of earth.
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Re: Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well
« Reply #279 on: January 06, 2011, 09:59:43 PM »
Quote
Continuous-use protection from blah is 2,000 gp. Slap that on a ring of protection and it actually gets cheaper.
Yes, but why would you buy that over a sword of use-activated true strike?
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