Spiky and Smooth Effectiveness - Why Casters and Martial Adepts Do So Well

[Waazraath]

I'm wondering where the hell you got the idea that the average beatstick can last longer than the average spellcaster.  

That's not what I said.

But if you run a game where it's not possible to rest whenever the party wishes, if you go through a lot of encounters, of if you go through the days when players don't have a clue about how many encounters they get, the perspective changes. Casters need to spent spells & spellslots a lot more careful, also their most powerful ones. And there are a lot of ways to do it... ambush a party after they decided they needed to 'rest', give them quests under heavy time pressure (works up to the point they can planeshift to a timeless realm), have them being hunted down, let them guide a convoy, have a battlefield encounter where they can't simply walk away, like a siege or a big battle on a field, send 'em in a dungeon that actually changes if some people walk in, kill stuff, and walk out again only to come back the other day (preferably "changes" by setting the mother of all ambushes to deteriorate this kind of behaviour - also makes sense from RP perspective).... whatever.

You devoted this wall of text to different ways of suggesting that you can make the beatsticks catch up with the casters if you force the party into tests of endurance.  You may not have said the average beatstick can outlast the average spellcaster, but you implied it repeatedly.

Again, no... I don't think non-casters can 'catch up' with the casters powerwise. That's not implied by my 'wall of text'. But as the OP stated, while casters can do their trick a limited times/day, non-casters can do their trick contiously.

A DM can, and should imho, use that to run the game in a way that casters and non-casters are more balanced, by increasing the number or encounters and in any case don't play by a 4 encounters/day schedule. Besides that, there's plenty of other stuff to do as a DM, like run encounters intelligently, make them complex, play with the battlefield/surroundings, not allowing to let the fights be on the PC's terms, et cetera. If yo do that as a DM, the difference between classes get smaller, and casters will call for a nights rest as often as non-casters.

[weenog]

Again, no... I don't think non-casters can 'catch up' with the casters powerwise. That's not implied by my 'wall of text'. But as the OP stated, while casters can do their trick a limited times/day, non-casters can do their trick contiously.

Wrong.  Non-casters can do their trick until they run out of hit points, or get their stuff sundered, or get into a grapple they can't get out of.  You know, the kind of stuff that they are directly and constantly exposed to by the very nature of their jobs.  Then they're useless at best, and more likely dead.

A DM can, and should imho, use that to run the game in a way that casters and non-casters are more balanced, by increasing the number or encounters and in any case don't play by a 4 encounters/day schedule.

Once again you're hung up on this completely wrong idea that non-casters can outlast casters.  It's not true in any case but the most wasteful, inefficient caster imaginable.  You know, the level of optimization and tactics that when used by a beatstick would have him dead in a single round even if the monster isn't very tough.

Besides that, there's plenty of other stuff to do as a DM, like run encounters intelligently, make them complex, play with the battlefield/surroundings, not allowing to let the fights be on the PC's terms, et cetera. If yo do that as a DM, the difference between classes get smaller, and casters will call for a nights rest as often as non-casters.

You get three guesses at who, between casters and non-casters, is better at forcing the fight to happen on their terms whether the DM likes it or not, and the first two guesses don't count.  I'll give you a hint: rearranging the terrain, adding and removing walls, and creating environmental hazards is not the exclusive province of the DM, some PCs can do that, too.

[archangel.arcanis]

Let me put it like this. I have tried to play a caster that ran out of spells before the beat-sticks ran out of HP and couldn't. I literally just tossed out multiple spells a round for our fights and after the first one the beat-sticks still needed a lot of healing while I still had over half my spells. After the second one the cleric was totally out of healing and the beat-sticks couldn't continue, I still had enough spells to probably solo another encounter if I fought tactically. And this was playing a Warmage, not even a 1 spell win wizard.

[Waazraath]

Last one for the day folks, I have an Xmass dinner to attend too.... guess I'll see some replies later, appearently I posted something controversial

Clerics: Most melee clerics that I've seen have either melee feats (you can have power attack, leap attack, imp bull rush and shock trooper by lvl 6 if human) or DMM: Persist feats. In any case, they provide more than a run for their money to fighters, barbs and paladins. ToB classes require a bit more effort though.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9556.msg323870#msg323870 see my arguments here

Also, past a certain level of optimziation, people realize that eveocation is pretty useless, and so is enchantment if you're not ofcusing on it. From here to Focused Specialist is only a small step. 4/5 straight wizards in the group I play in are focused specialists.

Fair enough, then we have different experiences here. Makes it more difficult for the DM to do as I suggest, true, not impossible though.
 

Melee brute with low will save? Blind him with glitterdust.
Ranged attcker/caster? Evard's Black Tentacles, Wall of Sand or Stinking Cloud.
Need to take somebody out of combat until you finish off his friends? Solid Fog/Wall of Whatever(add a dimensional anchor if you suspect teleportation and a cloudkill for some free debuffing).

Yes, and that's why you can run complex encounters as a DM, with for example two big monsters, some grunts and in the distance some grunts with ranged capacity (not to mention that hidden enemy that you prolly don't noticed). Then what? Go for a a save or loose on one of the big ones? evards on the ranged? Or maybe first spent 1 or 2 spells to get yourself into a safe place? Again, if you make an encounter that is over with 1 spell you're not doing your job right as a DM.

Win it? Only if the DM is an idiot.

Thank you I was beginning to wonder if I play with weird DM's....

Hi Welcome

Save or lose, bitch.

Yes, very kind, thank you... say hi welcome to your mother for me.

Your major problem here is that any encounter that will take a caster more than 1 or 2 spells to beat will completely tenderize your melee characters.

Eh, no. For example an encounter that includes a lot of smaller, weaker opponents that swarm round the party, they are a much bigger threat for the casters then for the non-casters. At least up to level 7, when dimension door should be available (but of course, not always is.

Ah, and I missed this edit:

Are you considering something insanely tough (and illegal) like a feral mineral warrior warforged barbarian/fighter/warforged juggernaut with Troll Blooded to be the average beatstick, and something idiotic like a warmage with Versatile Spellcaster who blows his load faster than a virgin getting his first handy to be the average spellcaster, by any chance?

Actually, no. Example: atm I play a heavy optimization campaign, party consists of 4 characters, cleric archer, focused specialized conjurer/malconvoker, conjurer/binder/anima mage sneak attack raycaster, and a gish (lvl 8 atm, so he's effectively a beatstick that does also all the chopping). We play 1 encounter every session, which is big and fat and lives in a very hostile environment. House-rule is no save or die, should mention that, but besides that, a lot is allowed. And at the end of the day, everybody is completely drained, and the gish contributed as much as the others. Yes, it's being done by a good DM, who puts a lot of time and effort in it, including making full scale 3d sceneries to play in... but it is possible. Other example, my own campaign that stopped a few months ago has a barbarian next to a conjuration specialist god-style wizard... both contribute equally, up to level 12 (when we stopped playing). Takes time and effort from me in my preperations, but it works.

@weenog: many of the things you mention are simply DM-judgements. The DM decides what to encounter, and yes, if it are only bit, stupid brutes that charge forward with a lot of HP and being able to grapple and sunder, yes, your non caster will get it's ass kicked. But thats a DM choice. As a DM you can decide to run different encounters, use intelligent foes, that know that casters are the bigger threat and will focus fire on them. Not only correct from a RP-perspective, but also something a DM whose job it is to keep the story interesting for everybody should do. And yes, casters can rearrange the terrain, but it will cost them actions and spells. And if the non-caster beats up the onrushing horde while the wizard at the same time stops the ceiling from coming down and crushing everybody, you have a good DM.

Let me put it like this. I have tried to play a caster that ran out of spells before the beat-sticks ran out of HP and couldn't. I literally just tossed out multiple spells a round for our fights and after the first one the beat-sticks still needed a lot of healing while I still had over half my spells. After the second one the cleric was totally out of healing and the beat-sticks couldn't continue, I still had enough spells to probably solo another encounter if I fought tactically. And this was playing a Warmage, not even a 1 spell win wizard.

Well.... can only say my experiences are different... can depend on many things, DM-style, other players, party make up. But it doesn't meann that your DM couldn't have managed the game in such a way that you would have run out of spells first.

[Sunic_Flames]

Fail.

If the DM picks anything other than a mindless autoattacker, the beatsticks at best sit this one out. More likely they get slaughtered.

Hard battles might require a spell per caster. Still no danger of running out.

Just having beatsticks at all means losing a lot of resources. Both because they are not casters and because you have to burn spells just to keep them with you.

[Littha]

Eh, no. For example an encounter that includes a lot of smaller, weaker opponents that swarm round the party, they are a much bigger threat for the casters then for the non-casters. At least up to level 7, when dimension door should be available (but of course, not always is.

A lot of the better Save or suck/lose/die are AoE... Sold fog, Acid Fog, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Sleet Storm...

Assuming your caster wants to have a bit of fun there is always fireball...

[snakeman830]

Assuming your caster wants to have a bit of fun there is always fireball...

Which, in the mook situation, is actually a useful spell.  Can't get more debuffed than dead, and if you can wipe out an entire group of enemies with one spell, you're set.

That said, Acid Fog eliminates all the mooks from the equation with one spell.  The melee mooks can't move or do their job while being dissolved and the ranged mooks can't see through it to target you.  Chances are, you managed to nail one of the big guys too, but even if you didn't, one spell just neutralized the majority of your foes.  Oh yeah, with no save, spell resistance, or attack roll.

[Waazraath]

Fail.

If the DM picks anything other than a mindless autoattacker, the beatsticks at best sit this one out. More likely they get slaughtered.

Hard battles might require a spell per caster. Still no danger of running out.

Just having beatsticks at all means losing a lot of resources. Both because they are not casters and because you have to burn spells just to keep them with you.

Do you actually play D&D? Like, you know, the game, with the books, and real people? Just curious. You can flaunt wisdom like "Hard battles might require a spell per caster" and the like as much as you like, but please be aware that this is a load of bs in a great many games. If al your games work like this for you, well... guess that's a bit sad for your. But don't act like it's some godgiven truth.

Eh, no. For example an encounter that includes a lot of smaller, weaker opponents that swarm round the party, they are a much bigger threat for the casters then for the non-casters. At least up to level 7, when dimension door should be available (but of course, not always is.

A lot of the better Save or suck/lose/die are AoE... Sold fog, Acid Fog, Black Tentacles, Glitterdust, Sleet Storm...

Assuming your caster wants to have a bit of fun there is always fireball...

Yeah, true, all true. Lets take level 7. The dungeonroom your party is in is getting swarmed by on three sides by small, hardly a threat critters that come storming in from three doors. As a wizard, you can use one of your AoE spells, take out one of the three groups, and have spent a relatively high spellslot on that. Then, still, you are surrounded by critters, with a lot of low-damage attacks (which rather sucks for mirror image and displacement). For the non-casters, with high ac and a lot of hp, it's hardly a problem. A few of these encounters as an 'extra' to a normal session, and also the level 7 focussed specialist needs to start thinking about rescources.



edit: I think I skip my Xmas dinner... hell, this is important, PEOPLE ARE WRONG ON THE INTERNET!!!
(and I can't get to my intended destination anyways)

[Littha]

Not if you take reserve feats you don't. I generally take at least one on each of my mages for exactly this kind of thing.

Besides that Wizards have Greater mage armor by this point... that lasts for 7 hours a cast.

Clerics are probably the toughest party member AC wise anyway as they tend to carry a shield and full plate.

Druids will wildshape into something small and flying and be completely out of harms way unless the attackers can fly... If they can just take a high AC form

[Waazraath]

True, a reserve feat is indeed a smart move against a DM that uses the tactic of 'using a lot of encounters to balance stuff'. And of course there is plenty of stuff casters (or noncasters, for that matter) can do in the situation I describe here. My point is, encounters like this can be used to have casters spent some rescources. Greater mage armor, I don't know if that's a given at level 7... if the DM's smart enough to have players 24h ready for encounters, a player would need 3 level 3 spells for aprox daily covering, or maybe 2 level 1 and 1 level 3 (if the players use the normal version when it's less likely to have encounters). Wildshape is only 3/day at level 7. And this is exactly my point: the DM can force casters to spent rescources with encounters like this.


And, more importantly: if a DM has a caster is his group that is perfectly equiped to solve the situation I described with only 1 lousy spell, this is the wrong encounter and the DM should have created another one!

[Kajhera]

Testimony of an erudite whose DM likes to test our endurance, and party likes to press to its limits, at 5th level:

By the time I ran out of power points fighting a mageslayer the samurai was at 1 HP, I was at 3 HP, and the rest of the party members were AWOL dug into a tunnel somewhere. The samurai had to employ healing potions to remain at that health; I had to employ elan resistance to not die myself.

Of course, if I only fight one type of foe in a day - with 'type' here potentially being as general as 'vulnerable to mind-affecting with a mediocre will save' - I can indeed pretty easily dominate a CR-appropriate encounter (and quite a few of rather higher CR) or make it laughably easy for the others to mop up. Even starting a level behind the party.

However, I will say this: Of the samurai who twohands his katana (for realism), the acid-focused evoker, the mining-focused healbot cleric with the Earth domain, and myself, every party member has proven useful. Most definitely including the samurai. Would a bunch of erudites be more powerful, regardless of fighting a mageslayer with transparency in place? ... Yes, yes they most likely would, and not only for power-learning synergy.

[bearsarebrown]

Level 1 Sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster has 6 first level spells.
Level 1 Focused Specialist Wizard has 5 first level spells.

Even at level 1 it isn't hard to last 4 encounter/day. Which is what the DMG says the game is balanced around.

[veekie]

AND the beatsticks are still going to run out of health almost as fast as the casters. Beatsticks have what, between 1.5 to 2.5x the hp of a caster if they want to be able to deal out the hurt. Take a look at how much damage monster full attacks dish out.
A melee character is only going to last maybe a round more than a caster after getting hit, and that accounts for typical AC and casters only using long duration AC increasers(no miss chances, invisibility or other total negations).
And thats assuming monsters that just make vanilla full attacks without using any attacks that are touch, or target saves.

Meanwhile the caster who gets mobbed goes for a Will save AoE centered on himself, casted defensively. Yay.

[Kajhera]

As for the situation described ... Astral Construct, Energy Wall, dump a bucket of Minor Creation-y poison on them... or come into it with either Inertial Armor or the rather decent armor I can wear without power failure (usually the second), and use Vigor to out-HP and out-AC the fighters, knowledge devotion to give me enough kick to bat the rats.  

[veekie]

^^
Overthinking it, just drop a Color Spray/Glitterdust on our own head. It's your best save, you'll do fine.

[Rejakor]

Swarm of small buggers?

I levitate.

I cast fly.

I go invisible.

I step into a corner and summon a dire something to stand in front of me.

I cast wall of ice and step behind the cleric.

I cast wall of fire in a circle around our group, focused outwards.

I drink a potion of sanctuary (good will save, yeah?)

I cast disguise self and become one of the little swarming things and run around in circles

I go stand in the corner and cast silent image of a wall of stone (How many of the little things are going to take time out to poke my wall and make will saves to disbelieve while the fighter is wailing on their friend's faces?  Say that they will do that, or run full tilt towards the wall, and i'll call you a liar, a dirty stinking cheater, and a railroading asshole of a GM)

Alter Self into something with NA and beatstick natural weapons and str score (troglodyte?  One of those things with +8 NA and +4 dex and 8 claw attacks?  Ancestor Dwarf?)

Alter Self and then False Life, and lol?


As a DM, I have flustered casters.  I favour ambushes, scary goddamn monsters that you're almost better off RUNNING from than fighting, and long running battles through unfamiliar and often trapped terrain.  I've split up parties, and harried them with groups of lesser foes.  I've played in groups where the full caster was the weakest.  I currently play in a group where the full caster IS the weakest (fire shugenja... he just got fireball... at level 9.... sigh).

But you're living with your head in the damned sand if you think that as written, assuming equal levels of optimization, melee monkeys of ANY STRIPE are ANYWHERE as near as powerful as anything even starting to APPROACH a full caster.

I haven't even gotten started on what a cleric or druid would do against that sort of threat.  The only thing that could kill a wizard and not instamurder a beatstick would be some kind of assassiny roguey guy, a poisoner or other mundane kill-you-while-you're-on-the-loo sort of fellow.  And wizards have Alarm, and detect poison, and eagle-eyed familiars, and all kinds of other things that a smart one could conceivably use to avoid that!  It's just not fair.  YES you can make life hard for wizards in your game.  Pro tip? They're still going to be able to do more than the beatsticks and you are going to have to do a LOT of work stacking the deck in your beatstick's favour and even then you better hope the wizard player isn't super good at optimizing and the beatsticks are at least decent enough to be using a pounce build or a lockdown chain tripper or a Jack  B.  Swift or a warblade with all the right maneuvers and feats.  Cause otherwise it's going to be the ye old tales of Wizzy McWizzerpants and his meatshields and the enemies that for some reason are all mage slayers and 'anti wizard ambushes'.  That nevertheless slaughter the meatshield every goddamn time at least when you don't stack the deck with a bit of the old metagamering and cheating-DM'ering.

[Kajhera]

^^
Overthinking it, just drop a Color Spray/Glitterdust on our own head. It's your best save, you'll do fine.

I was trying to stick with psionic methods, since spell to power erudites such as the one I play may be considered a tad overpowered.

[veekie]

Ah, I was thinking just a vanilla wizard making the fairly trivial concentration check to cast a low level spell defensively. Or if hes got Mirror Image or something granting cover/concealment up, just cast away. Its not like they're gonna hit you.

[Waazraath]

But you're living with your head in the damned sand if you think that as written, assuming equal levels of optimization, melee monkeys of ANY STRIPE are ANYWHERE as near as powerful as anything even starting to APPROACH a full caster.

Pfew, fortunately, I do not think that. Or mentioned that, for that matter.

As for this:

As a DM, I have flustered casters.  I favour ambushes, scary goddamn monsters that you're almost better off RUNNING from than fighting, and long running battles through unfamiliar and often trapped terrain.  I've split up parties, and harried them with groups of lesser foes.  I've played in groups where the full caster was the weakest.  I currently play in a group where the full caster IS the weakest (fire shugenja... he just got fireball... at level 9.... sigh).

, this is exatly what I mean. Thank you

As for the *stuf* you do to the small buggers, all very nice, but half of it is countered by having all the little buggers have javelins, and all of it assumes you go first. And eh... if I every have a player that summons an illusionary wall in full sight of monsters that are storming him, and gets pissed off and starts insulting me if his wall is disbelieved, well, I think we'd part our ways pretty quickly. But the example isn't the point, it's an example. And judging from the text above, you know quite well what I mean.

I haven't even gotten started on what a cleric or druid would do against that sort of threat.  The only thing that could kill a wizard and not instamurder a beatstick would be some kind of assassiny roguey guy, a poisoner or other mundane kill-you-while-you're-on-the-loo sort of fellow.  And wizards have Alarm, and detect poison, and eagle-eyed familiars, and all kinds of other things that a smart one could conceivably use to avoid that!  It's just not fair.  YES you can make life hard for wizards in your game.  Pro tip? They're still going to be able to do more than the beatsticks and you are going to have to do a LOT of work stacking the deck in your beatstick's favour and even then you better hope the wizard player isn't super good at optimizing and the beatsticks are at least decent enough to be using a pounce build or a lockdown chain tripper or a Jack  B.  Swift or a warblade with all the right maneuvers and feats.  Cause otherwise it's going to be the ye old tales of Wizzy McWizzerpants and his meatshields and the enemies that for some reason are all mage slayers and 'anti wizard ambushes'.  That nevertheless slaughter the meatshield every goddamn time at least when you don't stack the deck with a bit of the old metagamering and cheating-DM'ering.

Except that it's perfectly possible, without metagaming (unless you consider it metagaming if a DM actually thinks who his players are and what they can do, before making an encounter) and cheating (even though the rules on DM cheating actually say that you can't, but I won't bring that in the discussion) or using stuff specificly targeted against the wizard. I've been doing it since 3.x came out, both as DM and player. It's your bloody job as a DM to come up with a play that's challenging for everybody. But I have to admit, I play with rather relaxed people that actually take into consideration how optimized the others are going to be, don't try to steal each others thunder or try to be Pun Pun, and we usually ban the really gamebreaking stuff like the polymorph line. But with those two things in mind: it's possible, without cheating/metagaming/railroading/whatever.

[veekie]

As for the *stuf* you do to the small buggers, all very nice, but half of it is countered by having all the little buggers have javelins, and all of it assumes you go first.

Try 'small buggers' Kobold Sorc 1 x20, Magic Missile. They might actually land more than 3 in 20 hits.