The Snake Charmer
Human adept 12
25 point buy
str 9
dex 10
con 14
int 14
wis 19 (16 base + 3 from level ups)
cha 8
Maxed skills: craft (poison), handle animal, concentration, knowledge (nature), 5 ranks in survival, the rest in heal
Feats:
1-master of poisons, wild cohort
3-improved initative
6-reserve feat: either firey burst or touch of healing
9-improved familiar if a DM allows it, otherwise storm bolt or touch of healing
12-minor shapeshift
Oooh, this is like those naked women posters on 4chan where you comment on the background right?Adepts don't have Awaken Undead, which honestly is a shitty spell, anyway, and Zombies make terrible spell-sticthing targets. Also, it doesn't matter that an Adept might die to his own Zombified Hydra, the Zombified Hydra is under the complete control of the Adept. It's little more than a puppet.
Because if this is meant as a joke, it's not even that funny. And if not, I hate you all.
Also, Adapt vs His animated zombie, Eer I mean Awakened Spell-Stitched Pryodra. Who would win?
And much, much more. And seriously... i see the monk win in MOST, but of course not all challenges. Anything outside their classes is pretty much limited free for all anyway, so we can and should only rate in-class abilities. Expert DOES have obscure skills - and more skillpoints, (but seriously... wrestling a monk in his dreams? That is insanely circumstancial) and the Adepts has a few low-level spells. NO way that catapults him on the scale ahead, and if the monks abilities are weakish. (Yeah the freefall ability should provide movements in higher levels - spiderclimb, gliding - and yeah his self-healing should be a tick better... and yeah Abundent Step and Quivering hands should be usable more often, and he should have a DR/Chaotic growing through the levels... but STILL: Evasion, broad saves, immunities, ground mobility, combat feats... it is not THAT bad)Really? Most? What the Monk has are crap, garbage, shit, and Evasion. Ground mobility is an oxymoron in D&D, you're not mobile if you're not flying or tunneling. Let's do a breakdown of how this all happens:
We need this for example (And most of these have to be re-evaluated for different levels... and HELL: PRESTIGE-CLASSES):Monk vs. Expert - At low levels, the Expert can pull out a Wands/Scrolls of Entangle, Ray of Clumsiness, or Ray of Enfeeblement. If any of the above hits the Monk, the Monk is basically incapacitated while the Expert pings him to death with a crossbow.
The monk and the XXX are old enemies. By chance they meet each other unprepared. They are 60 ft. apart. Who wins?
The monk and the XXX are both in a dangerous, dark place. They are both prepared for trouble and will attack anything on sight. Who wins?The Monk is, essentially, blind, unless he has Darkvision or a light source (which will bring attention to himself). The Expert can train animals with scent and blindsense and use them to guide him through the dungeon, even without light, and to alert him to danger. If he's feeling extravagant, he can burn a scroll of Darkvision. What's more, a Monk can't kill a Troll. At all. Or anything with decent DR he can't overcome, or anything incorporeal
The monk and the XXX are both at home in a city. The other dude is a thorn in their side. They need to discredit and shame the other, before seizing their assets and have them drive off. Who wins?Expert, EASY. He has a substantially higher Diplomacy mod because Charisma is a secondary score and he has all three synergy skills as class skills. Monk has only one synergy skill and is basically forced to dump Charisma or fail at being a monk.
The monk and the XXX both have a fortress with guards and security-wizards. How do they enter the respective other fortress and kill the master?The Expert has a chance if he burns ridiculous amounts of resources, but not the monk. The Adept can play the CoP game since he has Commune and enough spellcasting ability to screw over an unprepared mage, but if there's a security wizard, there's really no realistic chance that any of the three classes mentioned will ever succeed at this task (nevermind actually be able to hire security-wizards).
The monk and the XXX are in a footrace with obstacles (walls, spinning dull blades, balls shot at them, etc. while some japanese dudes laugh) who wins the money?Nothing even remotely like this happens in D&D. Prince of Persia doesn't translate to D&D because there's a certain something lost when the success of gravity-defying acrobatics is determined by lady luck.
Wild monk.doesn't exist. . .
Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example?He might not, but what is he going to do? Charge? An expert can take 1d6+2. Seriously, Monks do shit for damage.
Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save?Entangle is a brutal spell at low levels, and the Monk will have to make multiple saves if the Expert places it appropriately. The others have no saving throw, they're touch attacks.
Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him?He can have light with him. Expert doesn't need it.
Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?Actually, it was the Adept casting through it no problem, because the Adept has a familiar that can spot for him. Plus, Sleep has an AoE. If the Adept kinda sorta knows where the monk is, then he can hit the monk with sleep. Also, the monk would have to get lucky to find the Adept in the mist.
And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city.Have you read the Diplomacy skill? It allows for some pretty obscene stuff. If you prefer, I could have the Expert blow a scroll of Glibness and say that the Monk was a retarded mind flayer that had it's tentacles amputated, but was somehow still a threat to society and would have to be killed by drilling a hole in his his head and replacing his brain with salt, and the people would believe it. Also, I suggested non-Diplomacy options with my Adept since Adepts don't get it as a class skill. That said, the monk can't do shit aside from roll a shitty diplomacy check or punch people for 1d6+2.
The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background.See previous sentence. The monk's options suck ass. You can shadow people to the end of the world, and that makes you a half-decent nameless crony, but even that can be done better by an Adept casting Commune. As for combat, a Monk can't fight it's way out of a paper bag. It's sole purpose was supposed to be damage output when it was designed, which is not only the shittiest thing you can do in D&D, but the Monk is absolutely terrible at it.
And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?It's not +4. A decently optimized Expert will have at least a 16 in Charisma. A Monk *might* have an 8. That basically means the Expert is reliably making those Diplomacy checks eight levels before the Monk is. In reality, he's doing it even faster than that.
The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.It's a common myth that low-level Monks have UMD. They're not even capable of reliably using a Wand until almost 10th level.
Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.Well, Dire Bat mounts are pretty popular, and accessible at low levels with Handle Animal optimization. That's a skill both Adepts and Experts have, but Monks don't. I'm something of a fan of the Phantom Steed spell; the move rate on those things is downright obscene. There's also the Overland Flight spell, but you'd really want that on your spell list since it's not in cheap wand form. Air Walk is a bit more accessible for the Adept, but has an even shorter duration, and wands of it are really expensive. At that point, you might as well buy the boots.
So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.
Hm? Well to be honest these threads (The Expert vs. Monk too) totally confuse me.
I know of the weird weaknesses of the monk, but Expert and Adept, REALLY? Of course anybody can construct a specific build and situation where one class (even the weakest) can get a inherently better one down. If you want to measure effectiveness between two classes you have to look on ALL possible challenges and outcomes.
The Expert with a few maximized obscure skills CAN have a peak output on some level... but in no way can make up for raw power for all the stuff of player classes. And i would rate Adept even lower... sure he got his spells... but seriously his list is pretty weak, and everything not on his list is free for all anyway.
HOLY......Honestly... you likely just don't have enough experience to know better. The reason I suggest that is the questions your asking seem to be very ininformed. Like why can an adept cast in an obscuring mist.
This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.
Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?
And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?
The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.
Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.
So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.
HOLY......
This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.
Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?
And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?
The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.
Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.
So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.
Wild monk.doesn't exist. . .
Also several of your defenses of monk are RP things that don't involve rules. If your DM lets you just talk your way out of everything and not use skills at all, then that probably will help the monk substantially but has nothing to do with the game as written. "maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. " what does that even mean?Try that with the Expert, Mr Damascus, renowned creator of masterwork blades. Or Expert Gandhi, who has a high diplomacy skill and a reputation for bringing peace.
The words "Charge" and negative expressed "damage" NEVER go together. In fact, a Monk is a better uber charger than anyone else.Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example?He might not, but what is he going to do? Charge? An expert can take 1d6+2. Seriously, Monks do shit for damage.
@ SorO+Summer: Pretty much the same way I feel. Only a terrible DM would allow such shenanigans to pass off in their game, and in that case, no PC of ANY class is going to have a problem doing anything because it seems like everything is tailor made for them to succeed. Sounds like a boring campaign to me.
In all fairness, it's not just the Monk who gets outshone by the Adept.
JaronK
And much, much more. And seriously... i see the monk win in MOST, but of course not all challenges. Anything outside their classes is pretty much limited free for all anyway, so we can and should only rate in-class abilities. Expert DOES have obscure skills - and more skillpoints, (but seriously... wrestling a monk in his dreams? That is insanely circumstancial) and the Adepts has a few low-level spells. NO way that catapults him on the scale ahead, and if the monks abilities are weakish. (Yeah the freefall ability should provide movements in higher levels - spiderclimb, gliding - and yeah his self-healing should be a tick better... and yeah Abundent Step and Quivering hands should be usable more often, and he should have a DR/Chaotic growing through the levels... but STILL: Evasion, broad saves, immunities, ground mobility, combat feats... it is not THAT bad)
But I probably wouldn't argue about it for pages on endamen
Because if this is meant as a joke, it's not even that funny. And if not, I hate you all.Huh?
@ SorO+Summer: Pretty much the same way I feel. Only a terrible DM would allow such shenanigans to pass off in their game, and in that case, no PC of ANY class is going to have a problem doing anything because it seems like everything is tailor made for them to succeed. Sounds like a boring campaign to me.
Yeah idk if I meant it as a poor joke akin to this thread or if I really would hate you all. It does help to have that first line in there, other wise when I mentioned the dislike towards those posters-in-a-poster things that continue the terrabad joke you won't get it at all. Really though, as four years ago bitching about the Monk was old news, and as of yesterday I realized the Barbarian committed suicide prior to that.But I probably wouldn't argue about it for pages on endamenOooh, this is like those naked women posters on 4chan where you comment on the background right?Huh?
Because if this is meant as a joke, it's not even that funny. And if not, I hate you all.
The issue with the wild monk is that it's a reflection of how good wildshape is, not how good the monk and its class features are. Wildshape pretty much bumps up any class up a tier, look at the wildshape ranger for example.
If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it? A lot of people here seem to be all cool with allowing homebrew for the psywarrior to get metamorphosis extra early, but the monk can't get the nice things the actual rules allow him why again?
If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it? A lot of people here seem to be all cool with allowing homebrew for the psywarrior to get metamorphosis extra early, but the monk can't get the nice things the actual rules allow him why again?
Mostly because I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wild Monks are worse than an expert, nor that he is worse than an adept.
If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it? A lot of people here seem to be all cool with allowing homebrew for the psywarrior to get metamorphosis extra early, but the monk can't get the nice things the actual rules allow him why again?
Mostly because I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wild Monks are worse than an expert, nor that he is worse than an adept.
This. We all agree Wild Monks are substantially better, but they also aren't what most people mean when they say monk.
If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it? A lot of people here seem to be all cool with allowing homebrew for the psywarrior to get metamorphosis extra early, but the monk can't get the nice things the actual rules allow him why again?
Mostly because I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wild Monks are worse than an expert, nor that he is worse than an adept.
This. We all agree Wild Monks are substantially better, but they also aren't what most people mean when they say monk.
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It works both ways. So the adept is a magic user? Well what most people think when they say magic user is either nuking or healing.
So it's only fair that the adept only gets to use pure damage and pure healing spells.
I think a better argument against the Wild monk is that it is a variant from Dragon Magazine. If it was from one of the Complete Series it would be on of the first things listed when people ask for Monk help. If it was from a web article it would get linked often. But due to the obscure nature, traditionally poorly balanced, and more difficult to access nature of Dragon Magazine makes even the good material from it gets little use.
If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it?
Not exactly, but the argument is mainly that a straight adept beats a straight monk in terms of usability.If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it? A lot of people here seem to be all cool with allowing homebrew for the psywarrior to get metamorphosis extra early, but the monk can't get the nice things the actual rules allow him why again?
Mostly because I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wild Monks are worse than an expert, nor that he is worse than an adept.
This. We all agree Wild Monks are substantially better, but they also aren't what most people mean when they say monk.
It works both ways. So the adept is a magic user? Well what most people think when they say magic user is either nuking or healing.
So it's only fair that the adept only gets to use pure damage and pure healing spells.
Oh I know!If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it?
That isn't RAW, that's Paizo. As for the PsiWar getting Metamorphosis early, I have no idea how that works.
The expert truly needs only UMD and scrolls to be combat effective. To be generally effective he just needs to be himself.I wasn't aware Races of Destiny(Able Learner) was either a campaign or obscure source. Srsly that's all you got? A Monk using UMD doesn't fit my image of the Monk, so I must be right. Great job convincing me so far. :rollseyes
The monk's usability hinges on either a monk variant from an obscure source(which may or may not violate the monk's image), or else feats from multiple campaign/obscure sources(Truth be told I hadn't even heard of half the things used to give the monk a fighting chance until the Expert vs Monk thread). Most of these methods gain no advantage from being a monk. You could do the same thing with a spell-less wizard for the most part.
Oh I know!If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it?
That isn't RAW, that's Paizo. As for the PsiWar getting Metamorphosis early, I have no idea how that works.
UPD.
...Ok not really.The expert truly needs only UMD and scrolls to be combat effective. To be generally effective he just needs to be himself.I wasn't aware Races of Destiny(Able Learner) was either a campaign or obscure source. Srsly that's all you got? A Monk using UMD doesn't fit my image of the Monk, so I must be right. Great job convincing me so far. :rollseyes
The monk's usability hinges on either a monk variant from an obscure source(which may or may not violate the monk's image), or else feats from multiple campaign/obscure sources(Truth be told I hadn't even heard of half the things used to give the monk a fighting chance until the Expert vs Monk thread). Most of these methods gain no advantage from being a monk. You could do the same thing with a spell-less wizard for the most part.
Not exactly, but the argument is mainly that a straight adept beats a straight monk in terms of usability.If we're gonna put arbitary limitations then I choose to remove the spell section of Core. Adept and Monk fight head on whitout magic trickeries! It's only fair because basic combat rules are all he needs in this case, and basic combat rules are usually approved (at least more aproved than certain spells).
The adept's spell list is not expanded significantly by supplement sources, he needs nothing but core...except core is all he needs, and core is usually approved.
The expert truly needs only UMD and scrolls to be combat effective. To be generally effective he just needs to be himself.1-The expert on that thread was picking Iajutsu Focus, an obscure feat to get trapfinding and several other noncore tricks as key parts of its build.
The monk's usability hinges on either a monk variant from an obscure source(which may or may not violate the monk's image), or else feats from multiple campaign/obscure sources(Truth be told I hadn't even heard of half the things used to give the monk a fighting chance until the Expert vs Monk thread). Most of these methods gain no advantage from being a monk. You could do the same thing with a spell-less wizard for the most part.I could make an UMD user with pretty damn anything. Again, why does the expert gets a free pass at it?
The expert truly needs only UMD and scrolls to be combat effective. To be generally effective he just needs to be himself.I wasn't aware Races of Destiny(Able Learner) was either a campaign or obscure source. Srsly that's all you got? A Monk using UMD doesn't fit my image of the Monk, so I must be right. Great job convincing me so far. :rollseyes
The monk's usability hinges on either a monk variant from an obscure source(which may or may not violate the monk's image), or else feats from multiple campaign/obscure sources(Truth be told I hadn't even heard of half the things used to give the monk a fighting chance until the Expert vs Monk thread). Most of these methods gain no advantage from being a monk. You could do the same thing with a spell-less wizard for the most part.
Not exactly, but the argument is mainly that a straight adept beats a straight monk in terms of usability.If we're gonna put arbitary limitations then I choose to remove the spell section of Core. Adept and Monk fight head on whitout magic trickeries! It's only fair because basic combat rules are all he needs in this case, and basic combat rules are usually approved (at least more aproved than certain spells).
The adept's spell list is not expanded significantly by supplement sources, he needs nothing but core...except core is all he needs, and core is usually approved.The expert truly needs only UMD and scrolls to be combat effective. To be generally effective he just needs to be himself.1-The expert on that thread was picking Iajutsu Focus, an obscure feat to get trapfinding and several other noncore tricks as key parts of its build.
2-It has been stablished several times that UMD with magic items alone isn't a valid tactic, even for rogues that get it as a class skill. Why does the expert gets a free pass again?The monk's usability hinges on either a monk variant from an obscure source(which may or may not violate the monk's image), or else feats from multiple campaign/obscure sources(Truth be told I hadn't even heard of half the things used to give the monk a fighting chance until the Expert vs Monk thread). Most of these methods gain no advantage from being a monk. You could do the same thing with a spell-less wizard for the most part.I could make an UMD user with pretty damn anything. Again, why does the expert gets a free pass at it?
I'm starting to think some of the people in this conversation are being intentionally dense.Only starting?
I'm starting to think some of the people in this conversation are being intentionally dense.Only starting?
He was talking about the one from KoK Skill Prodigy, which is both obscure and a campaign setting, since that's what was used in the other thread. Able Learner seems mostly irrelevant in this conversation?Monk vs Expert is mostly irrelevant in this conversation. And KoK is still new to me (obscure for sure), still need to acquire information about it.
I'm starting to think some of the people in this conversation are being intentionally dense.Starting? Where have you been for the 25+ pages of the last topic before they made this one to troll up some more responses. Hell look at the title. Last nail? Theres four NPC classes, they skipped Commoner and Aristocrat. Bans all around.
Do you want to actually get something from this discussion or do you just want to "win" the discussion?If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it? A lot of people here seem to be all cool with allowing homebrew for the psywarrior to get metamorphosis extra early, but the monk can't get the nice things the actual rules allow him why again?
Mostly because I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wild Monks are worse than an expert, nor that he is worse than an adept.
This. We all agree Wild Monks are substantially better, but they also aren't what most people mean when they say monk.
It works both ways. So the adept is a magic user? Well what most people think when they say magic user is either nuking or healing.
So it's only fair that the adept only gets to use pure damage and pure healing spells.
If the monk can get wildshape by RAW, why not the hell allow him to get it?
That isn't RAW, that's Paizo. As for the PsiWar getting Metamorphosis early, I have no idea how that works.
The words "Charge" and negative expressed "damage" NEVER go together. In fact, a Monk is a better uber charger than anyone else.Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example?He might not, but what is he going to do? Charge? An expert can take 1d6+2. Seriously, Monks do shit for damage.
@Summerstorm and you highlight why the Expert thread is pure fail. It's pretending Expert vs Monk, but all it really is about Iaiajitsu, UMD, and PSD is more effective than the Monk's single X trait. Personally, if I could lose one skill point per level in exchange for +6 to Fort/Relf, I'd do it with every single character I've ever made and you haven't even started talking about class features or how many skill points I can trade in. If you asked me if Iaijitsu Strike was better than Unarmed Damage, I'd ask if you were high. When told
"throwing gold at a challenge means you win", the only thing the Adapt is capable of, then by default anything with a level is made of win and their argument collapses into it's self. Take for instance the monk's 3 feats. Trolls say the list sucks and blammo supposedly they have no value. But having a whole 10 points in UMD by level 20 over the Monk when DCs cap at 30 is massively relevant, it's so relevant that you need to take Handle Animal and train a pet for it to win your fights for you.
The above + 1 Campaign Setting or Dragon:
Expert now has Iaijutsu, he can now melee without using a polymorph scroll first.
Adept...tapers off a bit, the same trick they use in core still works.
Monk can now become a Wild Monk and be golden. Adept got the same trick 2 steps earlier. Alternatively the monk can now afford to do what the Expert has been doing for 2 steps earlier.
The words "Charge" and negative expressed "damage" NEVER go together. In fact, a Monk is a better uber charger than anyone else.Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example?He might not, but what is he going to do? Charge? An expert can take 1d6+2. Seriously, Monks do shit for damage.
@Summerstorm and you highlight why the Expert thread is pure fail. It's pretending Expert vs Monk, but all it really is about Iaiajitsu, UMD, and PSD is more effective than the Monk's single X trait. Personally, if I could lose one skill point per level in exchange for +6 to Fort/Relf, I'd do it with every single character I've ever made and you haven't even started talking about class features or how many skill points I can trade in. If you asked me if Iaijitsu Strike was better than Unarmed Damage, I'd ask if you were high. When told
"throwing gold at a challenge means you win", the only thing the Adapt is capable of, then by default anything with a level is made of win and their argument collapses into it's self. Take for instance the monk's 3 feats. Trolls say the list sucks and blammo supposedly they have no value. But having a whole 10 points in UMD by level 20 over the Monk when DCs cap at 30 is massively relevant, it's so relevant that you need to take Handle Animal and train a pet for it to win your fights for you.
Wow, completely in agreement here.
As soon as I have the time, I am ready - as in the expert vs monk thread - to come up with monk buils that will show superiority over adepts as well.:)
- Giacomo
: SobolevI'm starting to think some of the people in this conversation are being intentionally dense.Starting? Where have you been for the 25+ pages of the last topic before they made this one to troll up some more responses. Hell look at the title. Last nail? Theres four NPC classes, they skipped Commoner and Aristocrat. Bans all around.
Aren't you the guy who thinks Monks are better than Wizards?No, I just live in the real world. For instance, I hit the small town cafe up before 2pm, why? Cus free fries and a drink during lunch. I can tuck that money away for tomorrow's meal or maybe some ice cream.
Yeah, I like supporting the local economy.Aren't you the guy who thinks Monks are better than Wizards?No, I just live in the real world. For instance, I hit the small town cafe up before 2pm, why? Cus free fries and a drink during lunch. I can tuck that money away for tomorrow's meal or maybe some ice cream.
Sobolev, Mix, Nin, the expert, you guys are the people that head there at 3:30 and pay extra for the sides. And that's all there is to it.
Socialist.
Aren't you the guy who thinks Monks are better than Wizards?No, I just live in the real world. For instance, I hit the small town cafe up before 2pm, why? Cus free fries and a drink during lunch. I can tuck that money away for tomorrow's meal or maybe some ice cream.
Sobolev, Mix, Nin, the expert, you guys are the people that head there at 3:30 and pay extra for the sides. And that's all there is to it.
Aristocrat has the proficiencies that saves maybe two feats, and diplomacy skills. Probably wouldn't hold up under any optimization at all, but being able to use a reach weapon and heavy armor is going to whup the monk for a few levels.
Do you have a problem with discussing for pages about the viability of min/maxing various D&D classes on a forum dedicated to min/maxing various D&D classes?It's less of min/max various class as dump on the Monk by ignoring Skill Prodigality (hell idk if it's official material really), over evaluate DCs (fast fact, if your bonus is high enough to pass on a 20, UMD gives a 50/50 shot of success for all out of combat spells, also it's only 21sp to pay someone else to train an animal to attack), blatantly ignore every other Monk Class features (and ACFs), and whine about books whilist taking Iaijitsu Focus (another fun fact, a monk can take ex-wep-pro(quickrazor) and use them just as well as an expert, and still have the option to fof which becomes superior later on). Heck, at this point a Monk can trade Improved Evasion (which you guys think isn't worth crap so no loss) to remain in a perpetual Blinked state (which halves area damage anyway), and thanks to MiC rules he ripped the Ethereal Reaver's ability and doesn't suffer a miss chance him self, sure it got laughed at because a handful of devils/demons have True Seeing but there is more creatures lacking it then you'll ever get to fight anyway. Blink does some other fun stuff, 50% chance to ignore traps, ignore locked doors, flight (oh yes, it gives it), and even Lifesight can't negate the entire penalty. But omg, Skill Prodigy is unheard of and pretty much replaces the Expert, banhammerz it immediately then talk about how this is optimizing various classes.
If so I think you might be lost. :drums
Do you have a problem with discussing for pages about the viability of min/maxing various D&D classes on a forum dedicated to min/maxing various D&D classes?It's less of min/max various class as dump on the Monk by ignoring Skill Prodigality (hell idk if it's official material really), over evaluate DCs (fast fact, if your bonus is high enough to pass on a 20, UMD gives a 50/50 shot of success for all out of combat spells, also it's only 21sp to pay someone else to train an animal to attack), blatantly ignore every other Monk Class features (and ACFs), and whine about books whilist taking Iaijitsu Focus (another fun fact, a monk can take ex-wep-pro(quickrazor) and use them just as well as an expert, and still have the option to fof which becomes superior later on). Heck, at this point a Monk can trade Improved Evasion (which you guys think isn't worth crap so no loss) to remain in a perpetual Blinked state (which halves area damage anyway), and thanks to MiC rules he ripped the Ethereal Reaver's ability and doesn't suffer a miss chance him self, sure it got laughed at because a handful of devils/demons have True Seeing but there is more creatures lacking it then you'll ever get to fight anyway. Blink does some other fun stuff, 50% chance to ignore traps, ignore locked doors, flight (oh yes, it gives it), and even Lifesight can't negate the entire penalty. But omg, Skill Prodigy is unheard of and pretty much replaces the Expert, banhammerz it immediately then talk about how this is optimizing various classes.
If so I think you might be lost. :drums
And for what I have no idea. I wasn't kidding when I said picking on the Monk is a horrible out of date joke. And by joke, I mean it never was one. Sure you don't know what to do with him, I don't know what the heck to do with a Truenamer but you don't see me complaining. But at least he has some stuff, and continued to get stuff that was better than what he had, and at the end of things is still a viable two level dip. On the other hand, a Fighter makes a better archer than a Ranger and the Druid never stopped outshining them both. The Paladin has watched the Cleric gain more and more ways to emulate every reason you would want to be a paladin while still maintaining virtually full casting. The one useful thing given to the Barbarian (lion totem) did breath some life in his corpse, but then we remembered Psychic Fighter & Martial Adapts so really we just forgot about Anthromorphic Animals since they were 2HD investments. Has anyone here even played a Marshal past level 1? A Samurai? What about a Ninja? From my stand point, you guys are Monk bashing for no other reason than to Monk bash. It has nothing to do with optimization, nothing to do with addressing who gets what, and it's not even about ragging on poor classes. It's needless unwanted arguing over crap, see also the concept of trolling each other.
If you don't like my random comments in your bullshit thread, get over it. Hijacking it would only serve to better it and I haven't even gone that far, yet.
Now watch two supernatural monks beat the crap out of eat other and smile. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQv-kYsclSM&list=SL)
This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.Count averages. Monks tend to be so fucking bad that they cannot invest too much money towards their initiative.
Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?Why would he have the exact spells? Because all the best ones are so damn good there is no point in taking anything else. Why take Fireball if you can take Glitterdust? Also, the Monk has no way of going through Obscuring mist, class feature-wise.
And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?Sadly, Monks are not exactly better in combat.
The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.And now let us have a look at the PHB. Does the Monk have UMD? No, hence he loses.
Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.Indeed, not everybody flies. Monks are a perfect example. One of the reasons they have their ass kicked.
Don't worry, theres always the Commoner to laugh at.
That's why I didn't check the "Don't warn on new replies made while posting." option...
Oh, and BTW. I think this thread is in poor taste. There's dabate that monks are worse then experts. Magic is thought to be the most powerful and versatile, so it's obvious what the answer will be. And yet ninjarabbit did need to create this... joke... :banghead
Don't worry, theres always the Commoner to laugh at.
What, and ignore chicken infested shenanigans? Nah, I say, scorn the aristocraft most.
Monk is tier 5, Adept is tier 4, sooo... you're proving, what again?That's why I didn't check the "Don't warn on new replies made while posting." option...
Oh, and BTW. I think this thread is in poor taste. There's dabate that monks are worse then experts. Magic is thought to be the most powerful and versatile, so it's obvious what the answer will be. And yet ninjarabbit did need to create this... joke... :banghead
No one forced you to read the thread.
An opportunity for me to tell him about the wild monk and it's general awesomeness.Monk is tier 5, Adept is tier 4, sooo... you're proving, what again?That's why I didn't check the "Don't warn on new replies made while posting." option...
Oh, and BTW. I think this thread is in poor taste. There's dabate that monks are worse then experts. Magic is thought to be the most powerful and versatile, so it's obvious what the answer will be. And yet ninjarabbit did need to create this... joke... :banghead
No one forced you to read the thread.
Because if this is meant as a joke, it's not even that funny. And if not, I hate you all.
Huh?
Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)
Try a wizard with every possible cantrip, double the 1st level spells, and Precocious Apprentice, which then sells his spellbook and retrains all his feats and takes that ACF that allows him to function without a spellbook at all (Eidetic Spellcaster, I think).Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)
Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.
6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.
Pluh-ease.Try a wizard with every possible cantrip, double the 1st level spells, and Precocious Apprentice, which then sells his spellbook and retrains all his feats and takes that ACF that allows him to function without a spellbook at all (Eidetic Spellcaster, I think).Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)
Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.
6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.
I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.Pluh-ease.Try a wizard with every possible cantrip, double the 1st level spells, and Precocious Apprentice, which then sells his spellbook and retrains all his feats and takes that ACF that allows him to function without a spellbook at all (Eidetic Spellcaster, I think).Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)
Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.
6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.
Take 1gp, craft 2gp.
I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.
I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.That's crazy talk! Profits turning out to be a bigger profit. Where do poor people come from then?!
I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.That's crazy talk! Profits turning out to be a bigger profit. Where do poor people come from then?!
Yeah, it is 1:3.
If you thought the economy was bad when Gold became so common that commoners wiped their asses with gold foil, just look at what happened when they changed it to salt...I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.That's crazy talk! Profits turning out to be a bigger profit. Where do poor people come from then?!
Yeah, it is 1:3.
The poor come in when the economy collapses faster than Zimbabwe's.
You're insane.If you thought the economy was bad when Gold became so common that commoners wiped their asses with gold foil, just look at what happened when they changed it to salt...I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.That's crazy talk! Profits turning out to be a bigger profit. Where do poor people come from then?!
Yeah, it is 1:3.
The poor come in when the economy collapses faster than Zimbabwe's.
Yep. Craft + Spellbook.I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.Pluh-ease.Try a wizard with every possible cantrip, double the 1st level spells, and Precocious Apprentice, which then sells his spellbook and retrains all his feats and takes that ACF that allows him to function without a spellbook at all (Eidetic Spellcaster, I think).Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)
Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.
6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.
Take 1gp, craft 2gp.
Yep. Craft + Spellbook.I believe the correct conversion is 1 gp into 3.Pluh-ease.Try a wizard with every possible cantrip, double the 1st level spells, and Precocious Apprentice, which then sells his spellbook and retrains all his feats and takes that ACF that allows him to function without a spellbook at all (Eidetic Spellcaster, I think).Aristocrat starts with the most money.
Throw in Mercantile feat for even more.
Sooner access to Magic Mart goodies, than any one 'cept a Diplomancer.
Otherwise ... (snore)
Throw in Apprentice (Criminal) if you really want to start off well.
6d8 x 100 gp [aristocrat] + 300 gp [mercantile background] + 100 gp [apprentice: criminal] = Anywhere from 1,000 gp to a whopping 5,200 gp.
Take 1gp, craft 2gp.
I was trying to pimp an Aristocrat (or the Dvd sicko).
I didn't / don't know about Apprentice : Criminal.
What is it ?
What does it do ?
From what I read, you get only +2 skill points total, not +2 skill points per level.
JaronK
You are correct, although the 2 skill points are still subject to the x4 bonus at 1st level, so you effectively get 4 ranks for free in each of your chosen skills.
+1 I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that.You are correct, although the 2 skill points are still subject to the x4 bonus at 1st level, so you effectively get 4 ranks for free in each of your chosen skills.
I don't buy that. The rules say that each class gets a specific number of skill points, and only that +Int is multiplied. Other things (like Nymph's Kiss or Apprentice) are not.
JaronK
So was there ever any ruling on if the Eberron Adept could choose one of the planar domains from Spell Compendium for its domain?
So was there ever any ruling on if the Eberron Adept could choose one of the planar domains from Spell Compendium for its domain?
Is anybody except Giacomo arguing against the fact that a non-wild non-martial monk is worse than an adept with a domain?
So was there ever any ruling on if the Eberron Adept could choose one of the planar domains from Spell Compendium for its domain?
Is anybody except Giacomo arguing against the fact that a non-wild non-martial monk is worse than an adept with a domain?
Woah there duder!... I was simply a question regarding adepts in general that I have been wondering about.
So was there ever any ruling on if the Eberron Adept could choose one of the planar domains from Spell Compendium for its domain?
I'd allow it personally, with no basis in the rules, on the grounds of "It won't break the game, it's just an adept."
LOL Hidden class features.I'd allow it personally, with no basis in the rules, on the grounds of "It won't break the game, it's just an adept."
And now you've found the one really powerful class feature of the Commoner. If your class says Commoner, you can get away with darn near anything!
JaronK
The Snake Charmer[/spoiler]
Human adept 12
25 point buy
str 9
dex 10
con 14
int 14
wis 19 (16 base + 3 from level ups)
cha 8
Maxed skills: craft (poison), handle animal, concentration, knowledge (nature), 5 ranks in survival, the rest in heal
Feats:
1-master of poisons, wild cohort
3-improved initative
6-reserve feat: either firey burst or touch of healing
9-improved familiar if a DM allows it, otherwise storm bolt or touch of healing
12-minor shapeshift
So basically less choice, but way more “spells” per day than the adept (and similarly powerful ones I daresay- improved invisibility and dimension door alone surpass polymorph).
Uh...Giacomo...Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.
Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Uh...Giacomo...Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.
Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.
Uh...Giacomo...Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.
Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.
- Giacomo
Especially since you can then proceed to buff the heck out of them with AoE buffs.Uh...Giacomo...Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.
Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.
- Giacomo
Animated undead are cheaper in the long run than partially charged wands and scrolls
Especially since you can then proceed to buff the heck out of them with AoE buffs.Uh...Giacomo...Also, Animate Dead creates dozens of Fighter replacements.
Polymorph surpasses most 8th level spells...
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.
- Giacomo
Animated undead are cheaper in the long run than partially charged wands and scrolls
Its you are invisible for 1 round which is more in line with G.invisibility for 1/3 roundsAlso, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
And, well, polymorph...let us say that the adept's ability to use polymorph 1/day is outclassed by the monk's ability to use dimension door 1/day AND every 3 rounds at will an improved invisibility effect for 1 round.
DDoor and Polymorph are completely different effects that cannot be compared to each other as equals. One is a form of movement (that in the Monk's case works 1/day) and the other is one of the 5 most complicated sets of rules ever printed. One is instantaneous, the other lasts for 10 minutes/CL.
And Invisible Fist isn't Improved Invisibility. It's normal Invisibility.
Also, animate dead costs 25 gp per smashed HD (whoever believes that skeletons and zombies -edit: including the bigger HD ones .edit end- last long in level 12 combat better should check out the CR 12 creatures... ;)).
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?
I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.
You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.
This is why every party should contain at least one.
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?You automatically control the ones you create with Animate Undead, up to a (pretty high) limit. So they don't really need those spells.
inb4 pointless bitching about how the undead are 'extraneous to the class and don't show the power of the adept, they show the power of the undead'
Considering the Adept class uses its class features to get the undead, I don't see why you'd get that objection. If we were talking about a Monk using cross class UMD ranks to get a wand of Animate Dead, then you'd get that, because that would have nothing to do with Monks.
JaronK
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.
It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round.
It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.All that says is that the zombie is otherwise exactly like the base creature, assuming the zombie rules don't override them. In this case, the zombie can only move or attack, but it can move and attack if it makes a charge, as per the entry. The hydra, if it charges, can attack with all its heads, as part of its entry. This is not a special attack, so the zombie template does not overrule it. So even as a zombie, the hydra can charge, using each head in an attack at no penalty. Whether this is the same attack or separate attacks in the same attack action is not made clear, though either way would work. The hydra is not getting extra attack actions, it is striking multiple times in the same action.
Indeed, if you notice, the hydra attacks with all heads as an attack action. This is not a Special Attack... it's just what its attack action is. As such, a zombie hydra does get all its attacks as a standard action attack. They're very handy that way.
But I love how you think such creatures are not survivable, when a Monk of the appropriate level is usually far less durable (he can run faster, though).
JaronK
A 12 headed zombie hydra created in a desecrated area with an alter is going to have 24d12 + 48hps (192 hps), +21 attack bonus (+12 BAB, +2 profane, +7 str) for 2d8 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) damage per attack with 12 attacks/round, and a base AC of 25 (-2 size, +17 natural) at a cost of 600 gps (24HD X 25 gp) which is less than 1% of a level 12 character's wealth and that's just core with no corpsecrafter feats or special items like black sand so those numbers can easily go up with a little effort.*Scoffs* The monk is CLEARLY better. It can Use Magic Device
By comparison a level 12 human monk with 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 18 wis (being extremely generous) is going to have 12d8 + 48 hps (96 hps), +13 (+9 BAB, +4 str) unarmed attack bonus for 2d6 +4 damage with 4 attacks/round on a full attack, and a base AC of 20 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +2 monk bonus). Granted the monk can improve those numbers with feats and items but it's going to cost a lot more than 600 gps to do that.
Tangent. For 2,000gp and the flavor of "I don't like taking my armor off" you ignore speed penalties of armor. Including Heavy Loads and such. See Tome of Magic's Magical Teeth for details.I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.
You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.
This is why every party should contain at least one.
Tangent. For 2,000gp and the flavor of "I don't like taking my armor off" you ignore speed penalties of armor. Including Heavy Loads and such. See Tome of Magic's Magical Teeth for details.I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.
You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.
This is why every party should contain at least one.
Tangent turning Hijacking, if you Ice Assassin, Mirror Clone, or otherwise pull some create-a-copy move. Does the MTG judge remove the new Legendary Permanent, bury both, or realize he is in the wrong game and someone or something is out there cloning teeth for money? idk, but it sounds like something to remember to bring up in your next session...Tangent. For 2,000gp and the flavor of "I don't like taking my armor off" you ignore speed penalties of armor. Including Heavy Loads and such. See Tome of Magic's Magical Teeth for details.I almost never take Dwarf without boosting my speed somehow. Because outmaneuvering a human in light armour when I'm in plate armour is just awesome. Quick Trait + Boots of Sprining and Striding/Tiger Mask.I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?You don't have to run faster than the undead once you create them.
You just have to run faster than the party dwarf.
This is why every party should contain at least one.
Tangent, the items are called out in their description as being unique items of which there is only one each. That being said, that item is amazing.
A 12 headed zombie hydra created in a desecrated area with an alter is going to have 24d12 + 48hps +3 from toughness feat (195 hps), +21 attack bonus (+12 BAB, +2 profane, +7 str) for 2d8 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) damage per attack with 12 attacks/round, and a base AC of 25 (-2 size, +17 natural) at a cost of 600 gps (24HD X 25 gp) which is less than 1% of a level 12 character's wealth and that's just core with no corpsecrafter feats or special items like black sand so those numbers can easily go up with a little effort.The attack bonus is actually only 19, due to it being huge. Also its freaking huge, some people have concerns about a horse not being able to enter some locations.
By comparison a level 12 human monk with 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 18 wis (being extremely generous) is going to have 12d8 + 48 hps (96 hps), +13 (+9 BAB, +4 str) unarmed attack bonus for 2d6 +4 damage with 4 attacks/round on a full attack, and a base AC of 20 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +2 monk bonus). Granted the monk can improve those numbers with feats and items but it's going to cost a lot more than 600 gps to do that.
A 12 headed zombie hydra created in a desecrated area with an alter is going to have 24d12 + 48hps +3 from toughness feat (195 hps), +21 attack bonus (+12 BAB, +2 profane, +7 str) for 2d8 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) damage per attack with 12 attacks/round, and a base AC of 25 (-2 size, +17 natural) at a cost of 600 gps (24HD X 25 gp) which is less than 1% of a level 12 character's wealth and that's just core with no corpsecrafter feats or special items like black sand so those numbers can easily go up with a little effort.The attack bonus is actually only 19, due to it being huge. Also its freaking huge, some people have concerns about a horse not being able to enter some locations.
By comparison a level 12 human monk with 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 18 wis (being extremely generous) is going to have 12d8 + 48 hps (96 hps), +13 (+9 BAB, +4 str) unarmed attack bonus for 2d6 +4 damage with 4 attacks/round on a full attack, and a base AC of 20 (+4 dex, +4 wis, +2 monk bonus). Granted the monk can improve those numbers with feats and items but it's going to cost a lot more than 600 gps to do that.
- and...by the way, where did you get that hydra corpse from again? Is there now an "undead mart" just next to the alleged "magic mart" or what? ) (and how much would the -recently dead- corpse cost?)>Implying that hydras are completely unfindable
- Giacomo
PS: @ninjarabbit: it is ...cute that you think a monk at level 12 does 2d6+4 damage per hit....
Giacomo, you have to admit that whether the Adept gets a Hydra Zombie or 5 Ogre Zombies, it easily has access to "pets" via spells.
I do appreciate the subleties that you mention - standard traveling with zombies is arduous and cumbersome - but even medium level parties no longer travel via "Standard" methods, and the idea of an Adept having some undead minions is pretty reasonable.
They're great for trap springing at the very least.
So, Giacomo admits that the hydra zombie does work, but is not contending that the Adept will not be able to find a hydra, or its corpse, to animate.
Well, offhand, I would say that since the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) has Knowledge (all) as well as Survival, he would know where to find a hydra, unless knowledge skills and survival do not cover that sort of thing?
Guys, I am sorry to interrupt the party. But the zombie template only grants what is explicitly mentioned. No mention is made of anything beyond the statistics block and the special abilities.It's not the zombie template granting the ability, it's the base creature, aka the hydra. The template only modifies it as stated, nothing more. It doesn't modify the creatures ability to attack, it only modifies what options the creature has per turn. Which the hydra has a way around. Even so, the hydra was just one option; there are equally potent options that would still trounce the monk.
So no move and full attack for the zombie hydra.
So, Giacomo admits that the hydra zombie does work, but is not contending that the Adept will not be able to find a hydra, or its corpse, to animate.
Well, offhand, I would say that since the Adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) has Knowledge (all) as well as Survival, he would know where to find a hydra, unless knowledge skills and survival do not cover that sort of thing?
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Tongues so perhaps an Adept could speak with some people about where to find them.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Commune so perhaps an Adept could SPEAK WITH HIS DEITY OR AGENTS THEREOF about where to find them.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Major Creation so perhaps an Adept could make some gems, sell them, and buy a map or a spellcaster to cast a spell to find Hydras for him.
I would say, offhand, that Adepts get Polymorph so perhaps an Adept could be his own damn Hydra.
You know, just offhand.
- commune is not available to a level 12 adept yet, only at level 16 (when zombies are even less relevant)
Pointing out their hypocrisy is also feeding the troll.- commune is not available to a level 12 adept yet, only at level 16 (when zombies are even less relevant)
I just want to point out how hypocritical you have been: You advocate UMD and partially charged wands and PaO cheese, but when the competition decides to access something slightly above it's level you state that the ability in question is not available. A scroll of Commune is dirt-cheap and requires no skill checks on the Adept's part to use.
And before you even THINK about it, a Monk using PaO is not fair game if the Adept uses a scroll of Commune. Those two situations are miles apart.
Pointing out their hypocrisy is also feeding the troll.
- commune is not available to a level 12 adept yet, only at level 16 (when zombies are even less relevant)
I just want to point out how hypocritical you have been: You advocate UMD and partially charged wands and PaO cheese, but when the competition decides to access something slightly above it's level you state that the ability in question is not available. A scroll of Commune is dirt-cheap and requires no skill checks on the Adept's part to use.
And before you even THINK about it, a Monk using PaO is not fair game if the Adept uses a scroll of
Commune. Those two situations are miles apart.
I only propose the use of PaO in comparisons when others do the same or similar "cheese".
And yes, getting a commune scroll to find Hydras is possible. But this then means that the zombie gets even more expensive.
- Giacomo
I just want to point out I'm not arguing with "Giacomo" to argue with him. I'm terrified someone will come along, read this thread and actually believe what he is writing further spawning a generation of terrible players. So I'm just here, trying to create a reasonable thread that's educational for others in the future.
The above is my reason for arguing against Jaron's builds as examples of the Class X fallacy, or at least an uneven degree of their application. I don't object to them so much inherently, but I do object to using a Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold diplomancer or a Necropolitan poison-user to demonstrate the ways in which an Expert is better than a Monk, while insisting that Skill Prodigy is somehow fallacious. I don't want this degree of hypocrisy to become established protocol on these boards, which is why all my efforts have been devoted to ignoring a Monks class features; if the most important class feature you have is duplicated by a single feat, I think that says as much about how powerful your class is as does somebody taking that feat to emulate your class feature in the first place.
I'm glad then that in the pursuit of truth we have found out that an Adept can get a zombie hydra through use of his class abilities.
I'm glad then that in the pursuit of truth we have found out that an Adept can get a zombie hydra through use of his class abilities.
Here's more fun zombies, assuming they were animated in a desecrated altar
Zombie Criosphinx
20d12 + 40 profane +3 from toughness hps (163 hps), 60' fly, pounce, rake 1d6 +5 (+3 str, +2 profane), +18 attack bonus (+10 BAB, +7 str, +2 profane, -1 size), gore attack for 2d6 +9 (+7 str, +2 profane) and 2 claw attacks for 1d6 +5 (+3 str, +2 profane) and a slam attack for 1d8 +5 damage (+3 str, +2 profane), Base AC 22 (+14 natural, -1 size, -1 dex) and DR 5/slashing
So now the adept has a flying pouncer (kept under the clause that zombies keep all Ex abilites that help in combat) that can serve as a mount for 500 gps.
Or something a little less exotic
Zombie dire lion
16d12 + 36 profane +3 hps (135 hps), improved grab, pounce, rake 1d6 +6 (+4 str, +2 profane), +17 attack bonus (+8 BAB, +8 str, +2 profane, -1 size), 2 claw attacks for 1d6 +10 damage (+8 str, +2 profane), 1 bite for 1d8 +6 damage (+4 str, +2 profane), and slam attack for 1d8 +6 damage (+4 str, +2 profane), Base AC of 17(+7 natural, +1 Dex, -1 AC).
Anadept can have a dire lion for the low low price of 400 gps.
A 12 headed zombie hydra...
I'm glad then that in the pursuit of truth we have found out that an Adept can get a zombie hydra through use of his class abilities.
You're right but honestly an adept using zombie hydras probably belongs on the TO board.
"Giacomo", you seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Riddle me this: what is the Monk doing against CR 12 threats so that we may compare the performance of these two classes.
Why is it TO to use Animate Dead? It's just a class feature! And it's not even that great, it's just better than what most Monks (at least that we've seen of late) can pull off.
Why is it TO to use Animate Dead?
*perfect explanation of what TO can mean with animate dead*
Smart Stuff.Quoted for Truth.
Died in the first encounter, was useless in the second, and a liability to the party in the third, was rescued by the rest of the party in the fourth."Giacomo", you seem to have a lot of time on your hands. Riddle me this: what is the Monk doing against CR 12 threats so that we may compare the performance of these two classes.
Well, I guess you know from personal experience what a level 12 monk of mine (in core rules) did vs CR 12 encounters.
And as you know well, there is this this other level 12 monk build of mine in the legendary fighter thread. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11801.msg408314#msg408314) I leave it to your imagination as to what that monk will be able to do vs CR 12 creatures.Sing me no song! Read me no rhyme!
Using animate dead by itself is not TO. Assuming you can easily find the exact creature you need, kill it, and then all the needed maintenance whitout problem is a lot more questionable. Zombies in particular don't heal naturaly (and the adept doesn't have inflict spells), slow you down, can be easily worn out by afar (in particular because they have zero stealth so they'll also warn everybody something dangerous is aproaching).Thoughts on partially charged wands?
This is, would you allow a sorceror 8 to start a game with any combination of 32 monster followers that aren't immune to mind-affecting because he could theoretically have Charm Monster'd them all over 8 days and then keep renewing the charms?
Would you allow an evil cleric to start with a small army of Paragon 1 HD skeletons because he could've theoreticaly rebuked them? (as paragon template greatly improves combat stats but not turn resistance)
Adepts may have a lot of spells, but they don't have Call Hydra/giant/creature that's lovely to animate dead. Such creatures also have no sell price. They may not even exist at all in the campaign area in question. Assuming they're right there for the picking is indeed kinda TO.
Thoughts on partially charged wands?Was oslecamo propossing them or using in his build or defending them in Giacomos build? ???
Died in the first encounter, was useless in the second, and a liability to the party in the third, was rescued by the rest of the party in the fourth.
Or am I thinking of a different monk?
Sing me no song! Read me no rhyme!
Don't waste my time, Show me!
Don't talk of June, Don't talk of fall!
Don't talk at all! Show me!
Yep, you are. :)So what did your monk do?
Buff with wands and use Invisible Fist (or whatsitcalled) ACF?Yep, you are. :)So what did your monk do?
I just want to point out that Sir Giacomo's monk is a 32 point build with about 6 different ACFs
I just want to point out that Sir Giacomo's monk is a 32 point build with about 6 different ACFs
Yes, ACFs...it sucks to be an npc class, doesn't it? ;)
Joking aside, by all means equip your adept, tune it to 32 pt buy and refine the build - I'd like to see what a full level 12 caster with just 1-4th level spells (and not that many besides) can do. The pearls of power are a basically good idea to get more 4th level spells/day (although only the same one I think). Note, though, that an item that can cast a 4th level spell 1/day (say, cape of dimension door) is usually cheaper than the 4th level pearl of power (since the latter can usually be activated to choose from more spells that you learned).
- Giacomo
What kind of person uses 25 point buy on a MAD class and plays it essentially as if it were in core only?
I mean, really.
Why is it TO to use Animate Dead?
Using animate dead by itself is not TO. Assuming you can easily find the exact creature you need, kill it, and then all the needed maintenance whitout problem is a lot more questionable. Zombies in particular don't heal naturaly (and the adept doesn't have inflict spells), slow you down, can be easily worn out by afar (in particular because they have zero stealth so they'll also warn everybody something dangerous is aproaching).
This is, would you allow a sorceror 8 to start a game with any combination of 32 monster followers that aren't immune to mind-affecting because he could theoretically have Charm Monster'd them all over 8 days and then keep renewing the charms?
Would you allow an evil cleric to start with a small army of Paragon 1 HD skeletons because he could've theoreticaly rebuked them? (as paragon template greatly improves combat stats but not turn resistance)
Adepts may have a lot of spells, but they don't have Call Hydra/giant/creature that's lovely to animate dead. Such creatures also have no sell price. They may not even exist at all in the campaign area in question. Assuming they're right there for the picking is indeed kinda TO.
Using animate dead by itself is not TO. Assuming you can easily find the exact creature you need, kill it, and then all the needed maintenance whitout problem is a lot more questionable. Zombies in particular don't heal naturaly (and the adept doesn't have inflict spells), slow you down, can be easily worn out by afar (in particular because they have zero stealth so they'll also warn everybody something dangerous is aproaching).
This is, would you allow a sorceror 8 to start a game with any combination of 32 monster followers that aren't immune to mind-affecting because he could theoretically have Charm Monster'd them all over 8 days and then keep renewing the charms?
Would you allow an evil cleric to start with a small army of Paragon 1 HD skeletons because he could've theoreticaly rebuked them? (as paragon template greatly improves combat stats but not turn resistance)
Adepts may have a lot of spells, but they don't have Call Hydra/giant/creature that's lovely to animate dead. Such creatures also have no sell price. They may not even exist at all in the campaign area in question. Assuming they're right there for the picking is indeed kinda TO.
Using animate dead by itself is not TO. Assuming you can easily find the exact creature you need, kill it, and then all the needed maintenance whitout problem is a lot more questionable. Zombies in particular don't heal naturaly (and the adept doesn't have inflict spells), slow you down, can be easily worn out by afar (in particular because they have zero stealth so they'll also warn everybody something dangerous is aproaching).
*crappiest post ever*
I don't think anyone's assuming Adepts are naturally going to always find the exact perfect creature to animate. Zombie Hydras are awesome of course... but so are most zombie dragons and skeletal dragons, zombie giants, and a wide variety of other critters. Basically, if it's got a powerful single attack and solid natural armor it'll make a good zombie, if it's got lots of powerful attacks it makes a good skeleton. It's hardly a problem to find some such creature... most DMs will throw some at you over time in most encounters.Yes they'll probably throw you melee monsters, but the problem it's finding the optimal one. I find it hard to believe you reach lv10 and DING you find a 10-headed hydra to replace the 9-headed hydra from the last level.
As for maintainance, it sounds like you're not familiar with Necrosis Carnexes. Anyone who can cast Animate Dead at CL 11 can make them, and they're made of humanoid (miscelaneous, IIRC) bodyparts for a cost of 200gp of Cold Iron and maybe something else (I don't remember). They run around and automatically heal undead for you. They're in MMV, IIRC.Well that indeeds seems to have been made purposedly for that.
As for stealth, undead don't breathe. Just put them in Extradimensional space (an Enveloping Pit is best, Portal Hole will do for some of them as well, and I believe Nondimensional Trunks are also big enough) when you don't want to be obvious. Really, it's not too difficult to maintain and hide your undead as needed.Then you need to spend actions bringing them out for combat, and if you're fighting anything with flying (pretty common at lv 11) they may as well not be there.
Nope. But I do let my players reanimate the monsters I throw at them, if they have the ability. And when I played a Dread Necromancer, I got a few decent ones even though my DM was specifically throwing stuff at me that wouldn't be raisable (lots of humanoids with class levels, which would be useless... until I got Awaken Undead. Heh.).Ok, then you've proven me right. Just like you don't let the mind-controler start with a selection of brainwashed monsters, we can't let the necromancer start with a selection of animated corpses.
No, was anyone suggesting paragon undead? I don't think they were. Stop making strawmen. I'm talking about just strong melee critters, not anything particularly crazy. A Hydra just happens to be the best 10HD thing to raise in the Monster Manual... it's not some crazy templated thingy. Of course, it's even better to get an undead dragon... and I've definitely played in games where we've gotten to kill a dragon. And a few where the DM screwed up and had a flavor text thing about the bones of a Great Wyrm Dragon being important to the plot, and then didn't realize I could just raise him.Then kill them in-game. What the DM makes available for you to kill/enslave/animate is for the DM to decide. Hydras aren't even that much of a challenge for an optimized party at that level (low speed and ground bound so laughable easy to kite) so I would certainly not use a 10-headed one at 10th level unless I wanted the party to get free stuff.
Assuming that at some point during the game the DM will throw some sort of melee creature at you is not TO. This game is called Dungeons and Dragons... it's hardly TO to say you will likely fight a dragon, or a giant, or some sort of magical beast (most make very good undead).
And just remember, if the DM keeps throwing only humanoids with class levels at you... you're just one Animate Dread Warrior or Awaken Undead away from winning forever.
Seriously, have a look at the dragons giants and magical beasts and, while we're at it, animals around CR 10-14 (the sort of things a level 12 Adept is likely dealing with). How many of them would make solid skeletons or zombies, and how many would not be any good?
There's no specific rules for it, but you could just buy some creatures. Warbeast animals, for example, have prices, and I suppose you could just kill them if you want (or let them fight for you till they die, then reanimate them for a second use).
oslecamo you're throwing strawmen out again. Yes a DM could have a campaign where there's nothing to animate but a DM could also have a campaign where everything is sneak attack-immune, there's nothing evil for a paladin to smite and even sneezing the wrong way causes the paladin to fall, or everything is huge or larger so good luck building a tripper.First you should go look at what a strawmen actualy is before simply throwing fancy words around and pretending they make a good argument just because they're fancy. Actualy your argument right there is more of a strawmen than anything I said in my previous post.
At some point the game needs to be fun and if the DM is going out of his way to hose specific classes or class features then the game becomes less fun and more player vs DM. Now if I'm aware that the campaign is going to be like that ahead of time then it's a different story and then it's my own fault for trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.This is not preventing the game from being fun. This is preventing the game from colapsing because (almost)free and stackable minions can easily escale out of control. In particular because the more you have, the easier it is for you to beat stronger monsters and then turning them into stronger minions to beat yet stronger monsters to turn into yet more minions and so on.
However this discussion is more about a generic campaign where you're fighting a healthy mix of monsters and it's reasonable to expect to fight a monster that's a good candidate for animate dead. I'm not expecting 10 headed hyrdas to fall in my lap but even something like an ogre or a rhino works decently enough.And who are you to decide what's a healthy mix or monsters or not? We have rules for acquiring certain monsters on market, why not use them?
And who are you to decide what's a healthy mix or monsters or not? We have rules for acquiring certain monsters on market, why not use them?
that says nothing about the Adept class beyond the fact that they are a potential Animate Dead delivery system.
Yes they'll probably throw you melee monsters, but the problem it's finding the optimal one. I find it hard to believe you reach lv10 and DING you find a 10-headed hydra to replace the 9-headed hydra from the last level.
Well that indeeds seems to have been made purposedly for that.
Then you need to spend actions bringing them out for combat, and if you're fighting anything with flying (pretty common at lv 11) they may as well not be there.
Ok, then you've proven me right. Just like you don't let the mind-controler start with a selection of brainwashed monsters, we can't let the necromancer start with a selection of animated corpses.
Then kill them in-game. What the DM makes available for you to kill/enslave/animate is for the DM to decide. Hydras aren't even that much of a challenge for an optimized party at that level (low speed and ground bound so laughable easy to kite) so I would certainly not use a 10-headed one at 10th level unless I wanted the party to get free stuff.
Dread warriors have locked stats and anyway only can be produced from fighter corpses. It doesn't say anywhere they retain their old capacities. Notice how they have a single feat despite having 4 HD and suposedly being created from fighter.
It could be construct campaign. It could be plant campaign. Heck it could be undead campaign in which case you can't animate them again.
Or my favorite, demon campaign since Fiendish Codex states that their bodies disapear in fantastic ways when killed. :p
There's also that nifty spell that makes creatures self-destruct when dead.
Point is, there's thousands of creatures out there, and not all of them are that optimal for animating, so you can't just cherry pick whatever you want before the campaign even started. Because that's as campaign-specific as it gets. It's like saying "well there's artifacts in the DMG and it's not uncommon to find artifacts in my campaigns so the adept gets whatever artifacts I want".
Now that is reasonable. If there's standard market prices for them, you can expect to be able to purchase them and kill them for animating. You still can't cherry-pick whatever you want.
I strongly encourage everyone who wants to post something in response to what Giacomo says to PM it to me so that I may do it for him.
The underlying rule of these forums are "Don't be a Douche".
... ensure your posts are adding to the community rather than detracting or keeping it stagnant (by spamming for example).
25gp per hit dice,
possibly dangerous/time-consuming location of appropriate bodies,
costs for Necrosis Carnex (whose details JaronK strangely enough cannot provide although he gave the impression that he recently played necromancers using it),
cost for altar,
costs for desecrate spell effect,
costs for envelopping pit (see below).
It all adds up over time.
For this, you get CR x to 8 (max) creatures which at level 12 simply have a too high fatality rate in combat.
Still, outside of combat they can be used to activate traps, tactically deceive opponents, transport stuff, be a mount (flying even), and are great possibly for fluff and that whole "bow-to-me-my-minions"-thing. ;) This does not mean that outside combat you should not ignore possible drawbacks (like bringing them into civilised areas).
A 20 HD zombie cost less to make (400 gps) than a partially charged wand of a 1st level spell with 30 charges (450 gps).
I don't think anyone's saying that (this is why we're saying strawman). A 10 Headed Hydra Zombie was an example of how nasty undead can get... a 9 Headed Hydra Zombie, however, is perfectly good too. So's a Zombie Behir (CR 8 Magical beast with 9HD, hits for 2d4 +12 or, if you had Corpse Crafter, 2d4+14, has 11 natural armor to start) or a Zombie Bulette (CR 7 Magical Beast with 9 HD, hits for 2d8+8 normally and has a burrow speed) or a Zombie Chimera (CR 7 Magical Beast with 9 HD) or a Zombie Elasmosaurus (CR 7 10 HD Animal) or a Skeletal Tyrannosaurus (CR 8 18 HD Animal) or a Skeleton Dire Shark (CR 9 18 HD animal) or a Zombie Young to Mature Adult Black Dragon (16-22 HD, CR 9-14) and so on and so forth.You still brought up the hydra in the adept build. It's not a strawman if you did exactly what I'm acusing you of doing.
You're harping on the idea that the best undead is all a character would have. No one's saying that, so it's a strawman. However, there will be SOMETHING that'll make a solid zombie or skeleton... that's what's being said. And if you haven't figured it out, I was just going through the Monster Manual there and picking magical beasts, animals, giants, and dragons of appropriate CR and HD... and it works. Notice that it's pretty easy to find CR 7ish critters with just about the right HD.Unless you bring up some random creature generator (that works with all creature types, not just those that are efficient to animate dead), you'll be still cherry picking, when otherwise it's up to the campaign and the DM what monsters you face.
You do know that zombies can still fly and that skeletal creatures with magical flight still fly as well, right? For example, Skeletal Also, you don't need to necessarily spend actions to bring them out. It's just that you hide them when you want to be stealthy, but when you're playing kick in the door kill 'em all style, you leave them out under standing orders to attack anyone who you attack or who attacks you.Zombies fly so poorly they'l be hard pressed to do anything. Skeletons are more efficient, but magic flying creatures with great natural combat stats are indeed rare.
Right, you get them after the first couple encounters. Then you have them. As such, when considering how well these classes do in game, we expect that the Adept will probably have some solid undead if that's campaign appropriate. What's the problem?"Appropriate" meaning a lot of diferent things to diferent persons. Otherwise nobody would've bringed up the 10 headed hydras at 10th level (and then trying to cheese out ways to animate dead 12 headed hydra zombies on top).
...killing them in game is exactly what I've always done. And it works, and then you have a bunch of them.But we don't have a game here. We have a 1x1 duel. This adept never adventured or fought any battle, and now you want to give it advantages based solely on its background.
Are you reading the same books I am? Dread Warriors are from UE. Their feats are "Same as the base creature, except the dread warrior loses any feats for which it no longer qualifies" and it can be applied not just to Fighters, but to "any humanoid of at least 3 hit dice or levels." They definitely keep all their old abilities, as the template never says anything about losing them and the fluff part of the template even says "dread warriors are undead beings usually created from the corpses of skilled warriors. They retain many of the martial skills and talents they possessed in life." So, usually you use them with Fighter types, but you don't have to, and they keep their abilities.I was checking out the Monsters of Faerun version, which is where google said they're from. What's UE again?
Seriously? A Construct only campaign? A Plant only campaign? REALLY? You know, I've never been in a campaign where every enemy was always the exact same type. God, the poor Rogues in your game worlds! A campaign world of nothing but constructs, plants, and undead! Seriously though, let's assume a reasonable normal campaign here.
So, you're saying a DM can go out of their way to screw a player if they want. We know. Hey, it could also be a completely dead magic world, except all Monk abilities work anyway! Monks clearly rule!Based on your previous logic, dead magic zones exist somewhere in the campaign, so clearly the fight will be in a dead-magic zone that happens to be filled with optimal monsters for animate deading. One background condition from each player is only fair.
See? There's your strawman. No one's saying you can just cherry pick whatever you want before the campaign even started. That's your strawman, right there. Notice how what we're actually saying is that there's lots of good creatures to reanimate (whole classes of creatures in fact... virtually every dragon, giant, magical beast, or animal of appropriate HD is a good choice), and in most campaigns you're liable to see enough of them to have some solid zombies or skeletons on your side.Then choose monsters whitout any specfific preference. There's several random ecounter generators out there to keep things fair. Otherwise, guess what, you're still cherrypicking them when you bring a specific monster out of nowhere to the duel!
See the difference? Notice how I'm showing your strawman out of your quotes, so don't go claiming you didn't make it. Now can you stop with that?Last time I checked it's not a strawman to repeat what others have said, and several times you were all mentioning specific optimal monsters for animate dead for the adept to use.
You are correct on one thing, and one thing only: this specific argument isn't a strawman. It could be tagged as any number of other logical fallacies, however, since you're basically saying "Animate Dead sucks if you don't get Hydras."I don't think anyone's saying that (this is why we're saying strawman). A 10 Headed Hydra Zombie was an example of how nasty undead can get... a 9 Headed Hydra Zombie, however, is perfectly good too. So's a Zombie Behir (CR 8 Magical beast with 9HD, hits for 2d4 +12 or, if you had Corpse Crafter, 2d4+14, has 11 natural armor to start) or a Zombie Bulette (CR 7 Magical Beast with 9 HD, hits for 2d8+8 normally and has a burrow speed) or a Zombie Chimera (CR 7 Magical Beast with 9 HD) or a Zombie Elasmosaurus (CR 7 10 HD Animal) or a Skeletal Tyrannosaurus (CR 8 18 HD Animal) or a Skeleton Dire Shark (CR 9 18 HD animal) or a Zombie Young to Mature Adult Black Dragon (16-22 HD, CR 9-14) and so on and so forth.You still brought up the hydra in the adept build. It's not a strawman if you did exactly what I'm acusing you of doing.
Why does JaronK have to do anything of the sort? To convince you? I don't think that's terribly important.You're harping on the idea that the best undead is all a character would have. No one's saying that, so it's a strawman. However, there will be SOMETHING that'll make a solid zombie or skeleton... that's what's being said. And if you haven't figured it out, I was just going through the Monster Manual there and picking magical beasts, animals, giants, and dragons of appropriate CR and HD... and it works. Notice that it's pretty easy to find CR 7ish critters with just about the right HD.Unless you bring up some random creature generator (that works with all creature types, not just those that are efficient to animate dead), you'll be still cherry picking, when otherwise it's up to the campaign and the DM what monsters you face.
Even with a clumsy fly speed, flying is flying. If you animate something with a high fly speed, the maneuverability barely even matters.You do know that zombies can still fly and that skeletal creatures with magical flight still fly as well, right? For example, Skeletal Also, you don't need to necessarily spend actions to bring them out. It's just that you hide them when you want to be stealthy, but when you're playing kick in the door kill 'em all style, you leave them out under standing orders to attack anyone who you attack or who attacks you.Zombies fly so poorly they'l be hard pressed to do anything. Skeletons are more efficient, but magic flying creatures with great natural combat stats are indeed rare.
Now you're just being contrary. It's like your obligated to disagree with every sentence JaronK writes.Right, you get them after the first couple encounters. Then you have them. As such, when considering how well these classes do in game, we expect that the Adept will probably have some solid undead if that's campaign appropriate. What's the problem?"Appropriate" meaning a lot of diferent things to diferent persons. Otherwise nobody would've bringed up the 10 headed hydras at 10th level (and then trying to cheese out ways to animate dead 12 headed hydra zombies on top).
This is totally unreasonable. Duels are meaningless in determining a character's strength. We'd likely be using a same game test if we wanted to test this out, which will invariably give the Adept something to raise over the course of the test, and it's likewise inane to say that a 12th level character has never before adventured in their life, especially if they make the skill investments necessary to hunt down and kill a hydra....killing them in game is exactly what I've always done. And it works, and then you have a bunch of them.But we don't have a game here. We have a 1x1 duel. This adept never adventured or fought any battle, and now you want to give it advantages based solely on its background.
Now if you want, we can fill the duel arena with other randomized monsters and if your adept can kill them and animate deading them in real time then I have no complains.
Elementals, then, and you're assertion is still ridiculous.Seriously? A Construct only campaign? A Plant only campaign? REALLY? You know, I've never been in a campaign where every enemy was always the exact same type. God, the poor Rogues in your game worlds! A campaign world of nothing but constructs, plants, and undead! Seriously though, let's assume a reasonable normal campaign here.
Please, vine/golem/grave strike have been printed long ago to enable rogues to easily sneak up pretty much everything. :p
Fine, MM's 1, 3, 4, and 5. A random sampling of 20 monsters CRs 8 through 12. Here's what I've got:See? There's your strawman. No one's saying you can just cherry pick whatever you want before the campaign even started. That's your strawman, right there. Notice how what we're actually saying is that there's lots of good creatures to reanimate (whole classes of creatures in fact... virtually every dragon, giant, magical beast, or animal of appropriate HD is a good choice), and in most campaigns you're liable to see enough of them to have some solid zombies or skeletons on your side.Then choose monsters whitout any specfific preference. There's several random ecounter generators out there to keep things fair. Otherwise, guess what, you're still cherrypicking them when you bring a specific monster out of nowhere to the duel!
Can we use webcams? I love webcams.
If your intent is to prevent the appearance of massive dicks, I must woefully inform you that you are far too late.*Opens mouth to say something, but...*
If your intent is to prevent the appearance of massive dicks, I must woefully inform you that you are far too late.*Opens mouth to say something, but...*
Nah, too easy.
You still brought up the hydra in the adept build. It's not a strawman if you did exactly what I'm acusing you of doing.
Unless you bring up some random creature generator (that works with all creature types, not just those that are efficient to animate dead), you'll be still cherry picking, when otherwise it's up to the campaign and the DM what monsters you face.
Zombies fly so poorly they'l be hard pressed to do anything. Skeletons are more efficient, but magic flying creatures with great natural combat stats are indeed rare.
"Appropriate" meaning a lot of diferent things to diferent persons. Otherwise nobody would've bringed up the 10 headed hydras at 10th level (and then trying to cheese out ways to animate dead 12 headed hydra zombies on top).
But we don't have a game here. We have a 1x1 duel. This adept never adventured or fought any battle, and now you want to give it advantages based solely on its background.
Now if you want, we can fill the duel arena with other randomized monsters and if your adept can kill them and animate deading them in real time then I have no complains.
I was checking out the Monsters of Faerun version, which is where google said they're from. What's UE again?
Please, vine/golem/grave strike have been printed long ago to enable rogues to easily sneak up pretty much everything. :p
Based on your previous logic, dead magic zones exist somewhere in the campaign, so clearly the fight will be in a dead-magic zone that happens to be filled with optimal monsters for animate deading. One background condition from each player is only fair.
Then choose monsters whitout any specfific preference. There's several random ecounter generators out there to keep things fair. Otherwise, guess what, you're still cherrypicking them when you bring a specific monster out of nowhere to the duel!
Last time I checked it's not a strawman to repeat what others have said, and several times you were all mentioning specific optimal monsters for animate dead for the adept to use.
So I'll stop it when you stop it as well and either use a random monster generator, or simply use some of the other's monk tricks.
I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?did we ever solve this?
The Enveloping Pit is well within the WBL of a 11th level character and solves stealth problems for as many undead as you can squeeze in a 50 ft. cube.I really should know the first, but for giggles can I get a source for both?
Necrosis Carnex is also well within the reach of a 11th level character with animate dead, and solves the healing problem out of combat.
I stay out of threads like these usually, so I apologize if I am suddenly back on topic:Solution is in Animate Dead itself. Undead you create are automatically under your control.I think the only flaw with creating undead is controlling them. Do Adepts get Control/Command Undead?did we ever solve this?
MIC for Enveloping Pit, MM4 for Necrosis Carnex.The Enveloping Pit is well within the WBL of a 11th level character and solves stealth problems for as many undead as you can squeeze in a 50 ft. cube.I really should know the first, but for giggles can I get a source for both?
Necrosis Carnex is also well within the reach of a 11th level character with animate dead, and solves the healing problem out of combat.
Which, incedentally, has a total cost of 200gp for the iron bands and 5 or 6 (can't recall which) humanoid corpses.I would like to add that if the Necrosis Carnex is destroyed, you can salvage the cold iron from the remains and re-use it for a new one.
Well, unfortunately I currently do not have the time to answer in more detail right now (work and all that). But maybe just one question to Jaronk: do you honestly believe that a storm giant skeleton (CR 8 I believe) is better than a level 12 monk? Or are you just implying that my level 12 monk is so bad? (you know which one). Think carefully before making such a claim again.
PS: for your answer it may be helpful to know that neither do storm giant skeletons gain slam attacks (they gain claw attacks); nor do they get 4 attacks/round, just either 2 claw or 2 weapon each.
JaronK, honestly: you are not really comparing my level 6 and 7 monk builds focused on skills for comparison with an expert with the combat strength mindless CR 8 or even 9 monster, are you? Could you please STOP THESE DOUBLE STANDARDS? They do not help in this discussion at all. Thank you.
Then, please check out the cloud giant skeleton example in the SRD. The slams got replaced by claws and do not come on top. The wording in the attack section seems to suggest they retain the slams, but definitely no skeleton example sees the claws adding to no. of attacks.
- Giacomo
Let's take a look at a storm giant skeleton, assuming the maker had the corpsecrafter feat (+2 hit points/HD and +4 enhancement to str) and it was made in a desecrated alter (+2 profane bonus to attack and damage rolls, +2 hit points/HD)
19d12 + 76hp (38 from profane, 38 from corpsecrafter) for an average of 190 hps
Base AC 14 (+3 dex, +3 natural armor, -2 size), DR 5/bludgeoning
Str 43 (39 base + 4 enhancement from corpsecrafter), Dex 16 (14 base +2 from skeleton)
Base attack +25 (9 BAB +16 str +2 profane -2 size), +33 grapple (+8 size, +16 str, +9 BAB)
Full attack: 2 claws +25 (1d8 +18) and 2 slams +20 (1d8 +10)
Reach: 15', speed 50'
Other than AC I'd say the storm giant skeleton is superior to the monk in combat in most aspects and the giant's AC can be improved with armor.
JaronK, honestly: you are not really comparing my level 6 and 7 monk builds focused on skills for comparison with an expert with the combat strength mindless CR 8 or even 9 monster, are you? Could you please STOP THESE DOUBLE STANDARDS? They do not help in this discussion at all. Thank you.
Then, please check out the cloud giant skeleton example in the SRD. The slams got replaced by claws and do not come on top. The wording in the attack section seems to suggest they retain the slams, but definitely no skeleton example sees the claws adding to no. of attacks.
- Giacomo
So that's two primary attacks with the claws, and two secondary natural attacks with the slams.Man could argue that slams need flesh to work. Could you find an official skeletal monster that has slams?
So that's two primary attacks with the claws, and two secondary natural attacks with the slams.Man could argue that slams need flesh to work. Could you find an official skeletal monster that has slams?
Zombies get slams, skeletons get claws. That might be a hint.
Are there monsters with slams and claws? ??? (I'm not saying one excludes the other, I'm just curious)
So that's two primary attacks with the claws, and two secondary natural attacks with the slams.Man could argue that slams need flesh to work. Could you find an official skeletal monster that has slams?
that says nothing about the Adept class beyond the fact that they are a potential Animate Dead delivery system.
By the same line of thinking, what more are sorcerers but a d4, poor BAB, one good save no class feature (aka terrible) delivery system for arcane spells?
It seems only fair IMHO that a spellcaster should be judged by the power of his spells.
The problem with this approach, the skeleton would STILL be a more capable combatant(or at least more durable) than the monk without needing the slams. Quibbling over the matter actually weakens your point.So that's two primary attacks with the claws, and two secondary natural attacks with the slams.Man could argue that slams need flesh to work. Could you find an official skeletal monster that has slams?
Unfortunately, there's very few sample skeletons. So, none among that list, but that hardly says much.
But by the rules, they'd keep the slams unless those require flesh. Having sparred against Muay Thai fighters, I can assure you when they slam you with their shins it hurts like the dickens. I suppose it's possible that "slam" means a strange modified punch, in which case they'd have to chose between slams and punches, but then again the SRD defines slams as "The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage." Since it's any appendage, it could be a knee or kick attack, which could work with the claws. I dunno. By RAW it sure seems to work, since the Skeleton rule says they keep their attacks.
JaronK
Yes casters should be judged by the power of their spells; they should not be judged based on the ability of certain spells to completely and entirely break the game because there is no "power" involved in that kind of useage.
Sure, I keep track of things like "Well the Adept is simply not going to use Animate Dead TO style - but note that if allowed they would be better than many entire classes. The Adept is also not going to use Polymorph TO style - but note that if allowed..." All spellcasters have a list of spells exactly like that. All classes have a list of Skills and other class abilities like that too. Why bring any of that kind of stuff up at all except in passing?
I don't even want to get into things like "Using Polymorph as intended..." or "Using Animate Dead as intended...". Such spells are highly variable in power depending on your DM. I would rather FOCUS on everything else the Adept can use that varies much less and go from there.
I'm not asking "What point?", I'm asking "Whose point?"JaronK's being the last quoted?
I'm not asking "What point?", I'm asking "Whose point?"JaronK's being the last quoted?
Worst case interpretation of the animated corpse gives you something about par with the monk, assuming you grabbed any melee brute in your CR range and the right HD.
And for the record giant vermins can't be turned into skeletons since they don't have a skeletal system, which automatically discards a lot of the options of the previously used random monster generator that kept spewing monstruous vermin.They do, actually. It's called an exoskeleton. Exoskeletons are fully functional skeletal systems, they're just outside the body instead of inside, which has its own advantages and disadvantages. I'd be happy to list them if you'd like.
I'm not asking "What point?", I'm asking "Whose point?"JaronK's being the last quoted?
Worst case interpretation of the animated corpse gives you something about par with the monk, assuming you grabbed any melee brute in your CR range and the right HD.
How exactly is the DM throwing you melee brutes conviently placed in the optimal HD range and that can be animated a "worst case interpretation"?
And for the record giant vermins can't be turned into skeletons since they don't have a skeletal system, which automatically discards a lot of the options of the previously used random monster generator that kept spewing monstruous vermin.
How exactly is the DM throwing you melee brutes conviently placed in the optimal HD range and that can be animated a "worst case interpretation"?
And for the record giant vermins can't be turned into skeletons since they don't have a skeletal system, which automatically discards a lot of the options of the previously used random monster generator that kept spewing monstruous vermin.
I'm a Zoology major. Do not question me on this.
@X-Codes: Again I essentially agree because I said *essentially* the same thing. Poly is so strong that many groups simply disallow it or nerf it, just look at this very site for examples. In many groups Poly is TO because it's disallowed. It's so incredibly strong for it's level, it's hard for it not to be TO even if allowed. Again, Poly is all that is needed to out perform the Monk and many other classes at virtually everything that's it's only worth mentioning briefly IMO.TO isn't some kind of subjective thing. Poly isn't TO unless you start using Assume Supernatural Ability, and even then there's only a few abuses. Shapechange arguably has more abuses, but that's an argument for another thread. Neither the Adept nor, obviously, the Monk can cast Shapechange.
TO isn't some kind of subjective thing. Poly isn't TO unless you start using Assume Supernatural Ability, and even then there's only a few abuses. Shapechange arguably has more abuses, but that's an argument for another thread. Neither the Adept nor, obviously, the Monk can cast Shapechange.
Because they're less popular/needed.
Does not matter. In most D&D settings necromancy is not tolerated ans so are undead.Because they're less popular/needed.
But better usually (they can work 24/7, not needing any rest or sleep), maintenance free and more environmentally friendly(they don't breathe releasing CO2 into the atmosphere and in the case of horses they don't need to consume O2 producing organisms).
But better usually (they can work 24/7, not needing any rest or sleep), maintenance free and more environmentally friendly(they don't breathe releasing CO2 into the atmosphere and in the case of horses they don't need to consume O2 producing organisms).So what you're saying is that off of the battlefield, an Adept can kick off the post mortem industrial revolution.
I was, personally, never enamored with the idea of nonintelligent undead as cheap labor. They can't make craft or profession checks because those are trained only skills, and skeletons and zombies just don't have skill points. As such, they work at the much less useful rate of 1 sp a day, which won't even pay off the cost of raising them from the dead for almost a year (and that's even assuming that they're 1 HD creatures, good for nothing else). What's more, this is simple manual labor. There is nothing produced by their efforts.
As such, Undead can, at best, play a role in an economy, but they can't spark anything like the industrial revolution.
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.I was, personally, never enamored with the idea of nonintelligent undead as cheap labor. They can't make craft or profession checks because those are trained only skills, and skeletons and zombies just don't have skill points. As such, they work at the much less useful rate of 1 sp a day, which won't even pay off the cost of raising them from the dead for almost a year (and that's even assuming that they're 1 HD creatures, good for nothing else). What's more, this is simple manual labor. There is nothing produced by their efforts.
As such, Undead can, at best, play a role in an economy, but they can't spark anything like the industrial revolution.
Craft is not trained only (unlike profession) but it's an int skill. I have no idea what rules( if any) would apply for a creature with Int:- trying to use a skill that keys on Int.
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.
I believe it would be a -5 actually.
Creatures with nonabilities trying to make checks based off of an ability they don't have auto-fail. Skellies can't make Int checks, but it looks like they can make Craft checks just fine, they just have a modifier of +0.
I believe it would be a -5 actually.
'The modifier for a nonability is +0.' -SRD under Nonabilities
INTELLIGENCEAny creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature that has no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. Such a creature is immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities, and it automatically fails Intelligence checks. Mindless creatures don’t gain feats and skills, although they can have bonus feats or racial skill modifiers.You need items, like a Masterwork Tool (50gp) or such.
Could a golem use a magic item, such as a ring of invisibility?They may not be able to craft anything really. *shurgs*
A golem can make use of any magic item that works continuously or is use activated (provided whoever commands the golem is on hand to put the item on the golem or order the golem to pick it up). Being mindless, a golem cannot use any item activated by command, spell, or spell completion.
Except nobody follows him.Wait... the Pope is on Twitter? how many followers does he have?
Wait... the Pope is on Twitter? how many followers does he have?
I was, personally, never enamored with the idea of nonintelligent undead as cheap labor. They can't make craft or profession checks because those are trained only skills, and skeletons and zombies just don't have skill points. As such, they work at the much less useful rate of 1 sp a day, which won't even pay off the cost of raising them from the dead for almost a year (and that's even assuming that they're 1 HD creatures, good for nothing else). What's more, this is simple manual labor. There is nothing produced by their efforts.The words "Perpetual motion" come to mind.
As such, Undead can, at best, play a role in an economy, but they can't spark anything like the industrial revolution.
The payoff is a long time though, and theres wear and tear on unliving bodiesAre there any actual mechanics for the long term degradation of undead bodies?
The payoff is a long time though, and theres wear and tear on unliving bodiesAre there any actual mechanics for the long term degradation of undead bodies?
The payoff is a long time though, and theres wear and tear on unliving bodies.Ox skeletons would be great if you tossed a couple in some
I figure mindless undead labor is best at totally unskilled labor, heavy hauling , towing wagons or propelling ships and boats etc. For skilled labor maybe a ghost would be better.
Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.Stop ignoring un-helpful rules.
Finally, Intelligence-based skill checks are a subset of Intelligence checks. Therefore, Skeletons automatically fail Craft checks, including checks to Aid Another using the craft skill.Not true, unfortunately. Otherwise, things like the Motivate Intelligence aura wouldn't say "Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks". Ability checks are seperate from skill checks.
Interpreting it the other way gives you just as much nonsense, though. Mindless creatures can make DC 10 Knowledge checks and basically have perfect common sense. Even if you're cool with that, there's still the "Untrained workers make 1 sp a day" bit.Finally, Intelligence-based skill checks are a subset of Intelligence checks. Therefore, Skeletons automatically fail Craft checks, including checks to Aid Another using the craft skill.Not true, unfortunately. Otherwise, things like the Motivate Intelligence aura wouldn't say "Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks". Ability checks are seperate from skill checks.
I am not suggesting that we use skeletons to make baskets, I'm saying we use skeletons to power a machine that makes baskets.In that case, the machine is a tool being used by the skeletons. Aside from doing stuff like trapping a Thoqqua inside an Iron Golem, there's no rules in the game for powering machinery using creatures.
Interpreting it the other way gives you just as much nonsense, though. Mindless creatures can make DC 10 Knowledge checks and basically have perfect common sense. Even if you're cool with that, there's still the "Untrained workers make 1 sp a day" bit.Finally, Intelligence-based skill checks are a subset of Intelligence checks. Therefore, Skeletons automatically fail Craft checks, including checks to Aid Another using the craft skill.Not true, unfortunately. Otherwise, things like the Motivate Intelligence aura wouldn't say "Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks". Ability checks are seperate from skill checks.
Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).
Interpreting it the other way gives you just as much nonsense, though. Mindless creatures can make DC 10 Knowledge checks and basically have perfect common sense. Even if you're cool with that, there's still the "Untrained workers make 1 sp a day" bit.
And what is this constant deal with the salary of workers? I can't figure out why you keep bringing it up.In order to make something you have to use either a spell or the craft skill. Skeletons obviously can't cast spells, and the limit of what they can do with the craft skill is earn 1 sp a day because they're untrained.
They don't close the door because they understand the concept of closing a door, but rather because you communicate the concept of what you want them to do. A nasty side-effect of being mindless is that you don't understand language.Interpreting it the other way gives you just as much nonsense, though. Mindless creatures can make DC 10 Knowledge checks and basically have perfect common sense. Even if you're cool with that, there's still the "Untrained workers make 1 sp a day" bit.
It doesn't provide common sense, but rather common knowledge, which IMHO is implied in the fact that they can obey 'simple instructions'. You can't obey a command such as 'close the door' unless you know what a door is and what the actions of opening and closing imply.
Hell if I know, the uses of undead labor is mainly to eliminate the need for unskilled labor. So any task that requires no judgement or decision ability is saved. Transportation costs are greatly reduced, overland shipping times go down, etc. You could program one to clean the streets, quarry stone, etc etc, but when used to power manufactories, they're just the mechanism to reset a non-magical crafting trap.This might actually be something. If you make a one-shot trap with a manual reset, it's a lot cheaper than anything with an automatic reset. While it might not be worthwhile with low-end traps, if you do it with something that casts Wall of Iron then you're saving significantly more money than it cost you to raise a 1 HD skeleton in the first place.
And what is this constant deal with the salary of workers? I can't figure out why you keep bringing it up.In order to make something you have to use either a spell or the craft skill. Skeletons obviously can't cast spells, and the limit of what they can do with the craft skill is earn 1 sp a day because they're untrained.
Even if that's true, the best these skeletons could do is use Aid Another to boost the check of a Real craftsman, at which point they really just marginally accelerate someone else's work. On their own, they can only create random, crappy items, and not even net a 1 sp a day profit.
What if your workers are zombies that never grow tired or sleep? Perhaps they’re incredibly strong stone giants or master dwarven stonemasons. In most cases, unusual laborers don’t affect the cost of stronghold, because particularly efficient workers charge correspondingly more for their services. Fifty dwarven stonemasons might do the work of a hundred human masons, but they know they’re better and they’ll demand higher wages as a result. Zombies may be cheap and efficient, but they require constant supervision from expensive evil clerics.Is it really the Zombies building things, or the hired Clerics using really large and organic tools?
Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things)
It's the zombies. The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things). It says so right there in your quote. Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.
JaronK
Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things)
Anyone seen fantasia and is reminded of the broomsticks?
See also: or the hired Clerics using really large and organic tools?It's the zombies. The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things). It says so right there in your quote. Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.
JaronK
It's the zombies. The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things). It says so right there in your quote. Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.
JaronK
It would seem a Cleric that cast several Simulacrum spells (UMD a runestaff/scroll) has the cheapest option of them all.It's the zombies. The Clerics are just supervising (but evidently need to be there the whole time to keep an eye on things). It says so right there in your quote. Of course, if they have Awaken Undead I imagine the supervision issue is solved.SorOs point was that you don't have to pay the zombies, but you have to pay the Clerics, and they're expensive, it says so right there in SorOs quote.
JaronK
Or maybe they're evil clerics trying to destroy society via economics by undercutting the competition
Can a skeleton be instructed to pull a lever under some set of circumstances?
Just put them on atreadmillhamster ball and order them to advance.
Make a balance check.Just put them on atreadmillhamster ball and order them to advance.
I'm not against order undead to walk in a hamster ball. However, I did post the correction to someone's misquote. Stronghold Builder's guide requires Clerics (arguably anyone capable of commanding them) to be present the entire time as a descriptive rule.Can a skeleton be instructed to pull a lever under some set of circumstances?
Any responses? At all? Because if a skeleton can do this, it can supply mechanical power to a machine. End of story.
Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Just put them on a treadmill and order them to advance.Where is a treadmill powered anything in any sourcebook?
If you're going that way, you even have varying power source sizes, ratballs for personal rotary power supply, T-Rexballs for industrial use...Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Campaign setting stolen.
I saw a campaign based entirely around the tarrasque once. They chopped it up for all sorts of uses. Food, housing... They even fermented its blood for an alcoholic beverage.If you're going that way, you even have varying power source sizes, ratballs for personal rotary power supply, T-Rexballs for industrial use...Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Campaign setting stolen.
It's in the book with the acid breathing sharks.Dungeonscape is a some 150 page book. Be more specific.
Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Campaign setting stolen.
This is a thread I'd like to unsubscribe from. :twitch What are you even talking about? I'm not going back to read the last 2 pages if it resultst in zombie hamsters powering the world.I mentioned that Animate Dead could be used to start off some sort of industrial revolution, which means the Adept is useful both on and off the battlefield.
Somewhere your d&d has taken a wrong turn.
See Also: Eberron and semifriendly turned hateful elementals bound and enslaved against their will to power machines, like flying boats and magnetic trains.This is a thread I'd like to unsubscribe from. :twitch What are you even talking about? I'm not going back to read the last 2 pages if it resultst in zombie hamsters powering the world.I mentioned that Animate Dead could be used to start off some sort of industrial revolution, which means the Adept is useful both on and off the battlefield.
Somewhere your d&d has taken a wrong turn.
See Also: Eberron and semifriendly turned hateful elementals bound and enslaved against their will to power machines, like flying boats and magnetic trains.This is a thread I'd like to unsubscribe from. :twitch What are you even talking about? I'm not going back to read the last 2 pages if it resultst in zombie hamsters powering the world.I mentioned that Animate Dead could be used to start off some sort of industrial revolution, which means the Adept is useful both on and off the battlefield.
Somewhere your d&d has taken a wrong turn.
Wait... Which one is an evil act again?
Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Campaign setting stolen.
+1.
Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Campaign setting stolen.
Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Campaign setting stolen.
Don't forget husk globe databases... and didn't somebody work out a way to turn the commoner railgun into an internet?
We can do better. (http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/12936417/)That is awesome.
I'm not against order undead to walk in a hamster ball. However, I did post the correction to someone's misquote. Stronghold Builder's guide requires Clerics (arguably anyone capable of commanding them) to be present the entire time as a descriptive rule.
I mean seriously, to pick a random critter, how about a Skeletal Storm Giant? Made by someone with Desecrate and Corpse Crafter, we're talking about something with 19d12+76 (199 hp), Str 43, Dex 20, an attack set of +23/+18 with his Greatsword for 4d6+24 or two slams and two claw attacks at +23/+23/+18/+18 for 1d6+16 and 1d8+8 respectively, or two Composite Longbow shots at +12/+7 for 3d6+16, initiative +9, AC 21 (with the default Breastplate, it could go up), Immunity to cold as well as most Fort saves and a bunch of other things, DR 5/Bludgeoning, and saves of Ref +11, Fort +6, and Will +11. Plus he can be healed indefinitely by a single casting of Black Sand, or by a Necrosis Carnex. And if you have random other gear he could use (for example some of the treasure he came with) you can let him use it until you're at a place where you can sell it.
Now, notice how much more durable that guy is than any of the Monks you've made (and note that 10HD critters turned into Zombies are generally even more durable). Either these guys are totally survivable, or you're admitting that your Monks all have an extremely high fatality rate. Which is it?
Out of curiosity, how much do the Monks you like to make spend in charges off wands per encounter? It's more than that per encounter, isn't it?
Well, the discussion appears to have moved somewhat.[/spoiler]
Before getting back to the original subject, just a note on the skeletons/zombies’ capabilities to do work: They have no skills. Not just no skill ranks: they have no skills at all. So, for instance, they cannot craft imo.
The animate dead spell says they follow spoken commands, and then also lists what they can do apart from that: following the caster and attack specific types of creatures in an area when they are left alone. Everything else necessitates a spoken command.
What they MIGHT be used for is something like a mecha (or landmate in Appleseed jargon, I think). A giant skeleton could carry inside its necromancer who uses the giant skeleton’s strength and reach for doing heavy work. You could imagine this as a basis for an interesting mecha fantasy variant in a magic-heavy campaign.
Anyhow, back to adept vs monk.
At this point, I’ll try the following:
1) Show that a monk can easily defeat a storm giant skeleton (thus nullifying this part of JaronK’s argument)
2) And illustrate why I see animate dead as a not sustainable tactics for an adept (i.e. too expensive.
First, the storm giant skeleton comparison.
These are its stats…I mean seriously, to pick a random critter, how about a Skeletal Storm Giant? Made by someone with Desecrate and Corpse Crafter, we're talking about something with 19d12+76 (199 hp), Str 43, Dex 20, an attack set of +23/+18 with his Greatsword for 4d6+24 or two slams and two claw attacks at +23/+23/+18/+18 for 1d6+16 and 1d8+8 respectively, or two Composite Longbow shots at +12/+7 for 3d6+16, initiative +9, AC 21 (with the default Breastplate, it could go up), Immunity to cold as well as most Fort saves and a bunch of other things, DR 5/Bludgeoning, and saves of Ref +11, Fort +6, and Will +11. Plus he can be healed indefinitely by a single casting of Black Sand, or by a Necrosis Carnex. And if you have random other gear he could use (for example some of the treasure he came with) you can let him use it until you're at a place where you can sell it.
Now, notice how much more durable that guy is than any of the Monks you've made (and note that 10HD critters turned into Zombies are generally even more durable). Either these guys are totally survivable, or you're admitting that your Monks all have an extremely high fatality rate. Which is it?
Neither. Some corrections first…
…this storm giant skeleton is not a “random critter”, but taken from the corpse of a CR 13 storm giant. This skeleton is so far the most powerful one presented and likely not “randomly” available for the adept (and trying to defeat the storm giant first is quite tough for a 12th level adept, I daresay).
Then, its DEX is not 20, but 16 (14 base +2 from skeleton template).
Finally, I still contend the four attacks/round. No example template creatures got any claw attacks on top of their existing attacks, including the similar cloud giant. So it must be concluded that the claw attacks replace other natural attacks which no longer are available to the skeleton since the designers felt they need flesh (including the slams).
Now, let us see what this skeleton can do against any monk build of mine.
Say, if we compare it to the 12th level monk in the legendary fighter thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11801.msg419438#msg419438), the following becomes apparent (but maybe others draw a different conclusion).
Scenario: Skeleton by itself (on guard on the adept’s order).
That 12th level monk build of mine gets the surprise round (the skeleton has no skills and thus no chance to notice even a badly hiding monk). In the most straightforward tactics without any buffs, the monk charges, does two attacks with snap kick at +21 vs flat-footed AC of 16, so likely hits twice for around 80 damage. Then first round. Both have the same initiative modifier. If monk wins, he hits with full round decisive strike for another 160ish damage, destroying the skeleton. If the skeleton goes first, monk uses his invisibility ability as immediate action and due to the miss chance only takes around 52 damage from the slam or greatsword attacks (and possibly a DC 15 massive damage fort save, which he'll very likely make). He then proceeds to do his 160 pts of damage to destroy the skeleton.
Adept cost: 450 gp for destroyed skeleton. Monk cost: took damage, has to heal with his 1/day ability and healing item. Advantage monk.
Note: the monk can also buff more and trip at +29 vs the skeleton’s modifier of 24 from 20ft away (greatreach bracers). Then, the skeleton could not even attack back. Also, the blink ability may be up all the time, increasing the skeleton’s miss chance to 75%.
Scenario: Skeleton with its maker (adept).
Then, the monk simply ignores the skeleton (tumbles through any threatened area if need be) and attacks adept for 80ish points of damage, plus two DC 23 stuns in the surprise round. Adept will likely perish from this assault, and the skeleton is masterless. Immediate action invisbility and move silently away (if you wish to destroy it now, refer to scenario 1).
Then, as I already mentioned, it probably makes no sense as JaronK did to use this adept level 12 animate dead result (a CR 9 skeleton) against the level 6-7 monks I posted in the expert thread.
Still, those monk builds from the expert vs monk thread he referred to were not entirely combat focused, but skill focused. A skill-focus monk with, say, UMD could simply use cheap wands like hide from undead or even command undead which allow the skeleton no save an thus makes it entirely redundant (in a combat of undead plus adept vs low level monk only protected by hide from undead, though, the adept might point out the square the monk is in an direct his undead to attack there, only thus providing the monk with 50% miss chance).
Fascinatingly, even the command undead spell in a wand costs only 90gp/use (4,500/50 charges; the hide from undead is only 15 gp/use). A UMDing monk thus would just control the adept’s undead as quickly as an adept could animate them. And 90gp are less than 450 gp, I daresay.
Which answers nicely JaronK’s concern here…Out of curiosity, how much do the Monks you like to make spend in charges off wands per encounter? It's more than that per encounter, isn't it?
…and also brings me to the second issue I’d like to address here… the feasibility of animate dead as a constant combat use for the adept.
I still maintain it is too expensive over time.
As oslecamo has pointed out repeatedly and shown by the random monster generators only providing about half rather useful potential zombies and skeletons, the animated dead will not be exactly the best available on average, far from it.
Against CR 12 creatures they have no chance (and I do not mean my monk build above).
The SRD reveals, for instance, at CR 12 dragons that could simply destroy them by flying around and breathing them to dust (white dragons vs skeletons being an exception, but I think an adult mature white will out-melee any animated dead at this level, including their DR 10/magic). A kraken crushes the dead with his tentacles, purple and frost worms can simply swallow them, similarly the black ooze just dissolves them, the pyrohydra can blast them with fire breath weapon enough before it will succumb to melee attacks, the leonal fireballs them until they are cinders, the colossal scorpion grapple/crushes them and simply has hp enough to outlast even a storm giant skeleton.
Which leaves the abyssal basilisk and roper whose fort-save or STR-drain attacks the animated dead may ignore. But those monsters also are intelligent enough not to attack those skeletons, but rather their adept master, as likely will all level 12 npcs (say, a wild elf level 12 barbarian).
(and to those doubting whether a level 12 monk can stand up to these CR 12 creatures at all, have a look at the link to my 12th level build above. Contrary to a skeleton or zombie it can hide, surprise, does more damage, is faster and has a whole array of special abilities that can help).
So, what we have is an adept who is going to lose likely in most encounters one or more of his prescious animated dead. Note also that the desecrate ring for 4,395 gp that JaronK mentioned only works 3/week (!) and thus may run out quite fast in providing the bonuses. And the altar needed for the desecrate boost is described to be “permanent fixture” which suggests imo that it needs to be a in a temple, not a small shrine carried around.
It is not that I am doubting that something like a massive 19 HD giant skeleton cannot be useful in combat. But it has the limits I outlined and over time is too expensive to rely on.
Meanwhile, maybe someone would wish to show a level 12 adept build that is more powerful than the level 12 monk build I posted in the other thread – I’d recommend not using animate dead, though.
- Giacomo
D&D is not a pvp game. Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.+1.
So does the Healer, but at least they provide a valuable service (just not one to devote a full character to).D&D is not a pvp game. Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.+1.
The role of tracker/assassin/scout/melee/w/e < dude with 6th level spells.
Unless we're talking warmage, his spell list sucks.
D&D is not a pvp game. Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.I have to agree with you Soblev...
The fact that "half of all of your encounters providing viable skeletons" isn't enough skeletons for you blows my mind. You don't think HALF OF EVERYTHING YOU FIGHT BEING A REASONABLE SKELETON is enough?
I sort of agree on Monk vs Lone Skele,
but your example of fighting an Adept leaves out that at that level Adepts have See Invisibility,
at that level Adepts can just Polymorph in to something that flies and leave,
at that level Adepts could have Stoneskin,
at that level the Adept might have concealment from Deeper Darkness (this depends on the situation),
at that level the Adept probably has a Handle Animal pet as well,
at that level the Adept has Invisibility,
at that level the Adept has a familiar, possibly an improved familiar,
Adepts are Wisdom casters so they might have a somewhat okay spot (enough to beat a monk who doesn't actually have a fair number of points in Hide but probably not enough for someone maxing it) ,
and oh yeah:
D&D is not a pvp game. Your ability to kill another PC while getting the jump on them has no bearing on which of you would be more useful to a party.
To sum up, I think not only in pvp, but also in general usefulness the monk – for the level 12 example – is better than the adept.
And imo the higher the level gets, the less important due to rising wbl and magic item powers is the ability of the adept to cast 5th level spells. Yes, an adept can then commune and raise dead. However a monk gets etheralness, spell resistance, can talk even to plants, and expands his already considerable combat power.
- Giacomo
Here's what a 12th level adept brings to the table just with his class abilities:
-the ability to cast up to 4th level spells from a pretty decent list, plenty of combat and utility applications there
-up to 48 HD of undead, again plenty of combat and utility applications
-a familiar, way too many potential good things it can do for a short list
-possibly a pretty good animal via handle animal skill, again plenty of combat and utility applications
The simple fact is a monk cannot match that action economy or usefullness to a party just with his class abilities alone.
Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit. I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that. It gives you away to new readers, man.But... (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=5081419)
I'd imagine it would be Kobolds. They're so used to making traps anyway, so the idea of "weight or a lever pull causes X interesting thing to happen" would probably really fit well within their cultural ideas. Of course, they wouldn't necessarily want to help anyone that's not a dragon... I imagine an industrial undead based Kobold society could be really cool in a campaign world.I once thought about a society where kobold first-level Clerics and Dread Necromancers were common, and that they take the Improved Turning feat such that they could each command 2 random 1 HD Humanoid skeletons (orcs if they could get their hands on them). These would be bought from higher-level kobolds casting the appropriate spells, and then said skeletons would serve as bodyguards or menial labor. The result would be a little bit of nanobots starting at a very early level.
JaronK
Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit. I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that. It gives you away to new readers, man.
Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit. I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that. It gives you away to new readers, man.
But I start to see...people run out of arguments, so the usual lulz set in. Ah, well...will go to bed again.
- Giacomo
Well, one person isn't tired!Sir Giacomo: You might want to edit out the "talk even to plants" bit. I almost thought you were serious and just hilariously misguided until I read that. It gives you away to new readers, man.
But I start to see...people run out of arguments, so the usual lulz set in. Ah, well...will go to bed again.
- Giacomo
Every one of your posts has a sentence like this in it.
No one is running out of arguments, you fail to disprove or convince anyone of pretty much anything. People just tire of repeating themselves.
Well, .... Speaking to plants may not appear to be that powerful. It is the tongues/speak with animals/speak with plants combined with diplomacy that is quite useful I think. Certainly equivalent to a 5th level spell if you ask me.Monk: "Can you grow a little to the south? I just want you closer to the other tree to build my club house." *diplomacy check*
+1Well, .... Speaking to plants may not appear to be that powerful. It is the tongues/speak with animals/speak with plants combined with diplomacy that is quite useful I think. Certainly equivalent to a 5th level spell if you ask me.Monk: "Can you grow a little to the south? I just want you closer to the other tree to build my club house." *diplomacy check*
Tree: "Sure." *check passes*
30 years later...
Tree: "Done."
Tree: "Monk?"
Tree: "Hello?"
Druid: "I think he died, fourteen years ago, a dragon got him, I bet he was stringy and tasted like an old shoe. But I don't know for sure, the Bards never sing about the sidekicks."
Do plants have an Int score? I thought they usually had the brains of a zombie.Someone else's?
Do plants have an Int score? I thought they usually had the brains of a zombie.Someone else's?
Oh god, yet another campaign idea...
Do plants have an Int score? I thought they usually had the brains of a zombie.Someone else's?
Oh god, yet another campaign idea...
This thread seems to be good at generating those.
Monk: "Can you grow a little to the south? I just want you closer to the other tree to build my club house." *diplomacy check*
Tree: "Sure." *check passes*
30 years later...
Tree: "Done."
Tree: "Monk?"
Tree: "Hello?"
Druid: "I think he died, fourteen years ago, a dragon got him, I bet he was stringy and tasted like an old shoe. But I don't know for sure, the Bards never sing about the sidekicks."
Gia, seriously, we're mostly just ignoring you now. Stuff like that last example prove why: you're not even making sense anymore (it says animals avoid the area, not they carry riders away in terror. The Adept would just send in a few undead to slaughter the poor thing if he was of sufficient level to have said undead. Though why an Adept of sufficient level to have undead would be fighting CR 6 plants I can't fathom).
Seriously, find one other person to back you up or agree with you and I might consider debating you again. Until then, you're just a crazy guy talking to the air.
JaronK
And the Handle Animal skill allows you to "Push" animals to do something they wouldn't normally do. Like approaching such a thing perhaps?*more derailing*
Ok. So I don't really post on here often, but figured I would give this a shot.Core element of your build is essentially nothing but reduce the price of using Animate Undead. If nothing else, today I learned a single level dip into Pale Master is better than the entire Adapt class. Well, that and Wight's +4 LA is totally worth free undead in a low power game.
<snip>Animate Dead & Cohort(s)!</snip>
Ummm, nothing in there reduces the cost of Animate Dead. It's just focused on undead in general.Ok. So I don't really post on here often, but figured I would give this a shot.Core element of your build is essentially nothing but reduce the price of using Animate Undead. If nothing else, today I learned a single level dip into Pale Master is better than the entire Adapt class. Well, that and Wight's +4 LA is totally worth free undead in a low power game.
<snip>Animate Dead & Cohort(s)!</snip>
I thought his Craft(gemcutting) was in there for some gem crafting for material components.Ummm, nothing in there reduces the cost of Animate Dead. It's just focused on undead in general.Ok. So I don't really post on here often, but figured I would give this a shot.Core element of your build is essentially nothing but reduce the price of using Animate Undead. If nothing else, today I learned a single level dip into Pale Master is better than the entire Adapt class. Well, that and Wight's +4 LA is totally worth free undead in a low power game.
<snip>Animate Dead & Cohort(s)!</snip>
Ok. So I don't really post on here often, but figured I would give this a shot.Core element of your build is essentially nothing but reduce the price of using Animate Undead. If nothing else, today I learned a single level dip into Pale Master is better than the entire Adapt class. Well, that and Wight's +4 LA is totally worth free undead in a low power game.
<snip>Animate Dead & Cohort(s)!</snip>
I would switch Undead leadership away, because it is just ridiculous. Any build can be amazing with it and tells little of the power of the class. Otherwise I do like the character though.
Oh so you did. I just remember any healing method that takes 8 hours to preform outside of sleep and replaced it with the much better alternative of crafting material components. Consider all comments about cheapening the cost of undead replaced by awesome a robot out to kill humanity, but I'm probably wrong on that too. :(So I take it that you didn't bother to actually read the build at all. Nothing in my build cheapens the costs. Craft Gemcutting is in there to due free healing on self, as a Warforged. Of course, if you actually bothered to read before commenting I clearly laid that out. Thanks for not taking the time or consideration to actually read a post before dismissing it.Ok. So I don't really post on here often, but figured I would give this a shot.Core element of your build is essentially nothing but reduce the price of using Animate Undead. If nothing else, today I learned a single level dip into Pale Master is better than the entire Adapt class. Well, that and Wight's +4 LA is totally worth free undead in a low power game.
<snip>Animate Dead & Cohort(s)!</snip>
Will the robots be able to time travel?
Oh so you did. I just remember any healing method that takes 8 hours to preform outside of sleep and replaced it with the much better alternative of crafting material components. Consider all comments about cheapening the cost of undead replaced by awesome a robot out to kill humanity, but I'm probably wrong on that too. :(So I take it that you didn't bother to actually read the build at all. Nothing in my build cheapens the costs. Craft Gemcutting is in there to due free healing on self, as a Warforged. Of course, if you actually bothered to read before commenting I clearly laid that out. Thanks for not taking the time or consideration to actually read a post before dismissing it.Ok. So I don't really post on here often, but figured I would give this a shot.Core element of your build is essentially nothing but reduce the price of using Animate Undead. If nothing else, today I learned a single level dip into Pale Master is better than the entire Adapt class. Well, that and Wight's +4 LA is totally worth free undead in a low power game.
<snip>Animate Dead & Cohort(s)!</snip>
I would switch Undead leadership away, because it is just ridiculous. Any build can be amazing with it and tells little of the power of the class. Otherwise I do like the character though.
Honestly I had an extra feat lol. Really, the only great thing given by it in this case was 3/day Create Undead and Desecrate. Which given I still have a TON of cash left, I could probably just by similar items and use the feat for something else, I guess applying another Corpsecrafter benefit?
HOLY......
This is exactly what i mean. You have just totally perverted my clean, simple "imaginary scenarios" with ridiculous assumptions. You just only assumed in all scenarios that the monk will lose out and built from there.
Why would he lose initiative in the 60 ft. apart example? Why does the Expert have exactly the spells needed, why does the monk fail a save? Why is a PREPARED monk blind and has no light with him? Why can't he find an enemy in an obscuring mist... and how can your expert cast through that no problem?
And in the social challenge: Why does ONE roll or skill determine the outcome. Just having a probably higher diplomancy check doesn't make you a wizard in a city. The monk has other options (Maybe he is a great scout/ good at shadowing people. Maybe he can outfight people in a brawl better, maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. And even IF it is all one check, in all situations. Why does a +4 over another mean you have a 100% perfect chance to be always better?
The whole thing with using wands and magical items and such is: Defeating problems by throwing money at it. EVERYBODY (who has UMD) can do that.
Oh and also with flying: Come on. I know flying is powerful and all... but not EVERYBODY flies (all the time), well... at least nobody who paid the 55k? for flying boots. And of course prepared wizards and sorcerers etc. on mid-high levels.
So yeah... i would say: Experts, Adepts and monks have roughly the same ability to fly.
It's like there's a 24 page thread on this same forum that explains why Monks are worse, and you still have managed to not read any of it.
Also several of your defenses of monk are RP things that don't involve rules. If your DM lets you just talk your way out of everything and not use skills at all, then that probably will help the monk substantially but has nothing to do with the game as written. "maybe he can build a reputaion faster and more relaible, because of his powerful background. " what does that even mean?
Monk class features are worse than skill optimization, don't feel bad most things that low on the tier list have the same problem, and Experts are better at skill optimization by a good amount. Further if the monk wants to TRY skill optimization he has to dump more stats and can't keep up with the point buy while maintaining his ability to do physical damage. Which he really wasn't very good at anyway.
Furthermore, even if he were good at shadowing people, an expert would be better because he has more skills.
(Please explain, for instance, what profession that an "Expert" would normally represent would ever be optimized for Use Magic Device, Diplomacy AND Handle Animal, the three skills you happen to love so much here, to say nothing of also investing in the requisite skills to provide them with synergy.)
(Please explain, for instance, what profession that an "Expert" would normally represent would ever be optimized for Use Magic Device, Diplomacy AND Handle Animal, the three skills you happen to love so much here, to say nothing of also investing in the requisite skills to provide them with synergy.)
Adventuring, obviously. The same profession as the Monk. Surely you weren't expecting to see how Experts who were set up as village blacksmiths would do in an adventuring scenario, just like you would expect to see how Monks that were built as elderly monastery retirees would fare, right?
JaronK
Despite the fact that it is listed as one of those classes, specifically in the DMG, that DOES NOT make a habit of going adventuring you mean?
Ignoring, further, that a good 99.9% of the population of the Expert class are the "village blacksmiths" you mentioned, and that only, maybe 10-20% of monks fit the "elderly monastery retirees" demographic.
(Additionally ignoring for the moment, that you ignored the rest of what I said entirely, thereby missing the point) Seriously, do you see what you are doing here? You are responding to my quarry by creating an unequal and unrealistic model of comparison between the two classes. Just as you were with Summerstorm, and likely everyone else you've had this conversation with.
Despite the fact that it is listed as one of those classes, specifically in the DMG, that DOES NOT make a habit of going adventuring you mean?
Sure, just like most Fighters are actually guards, mercenaries, or warlords. Just like most Clerics are church functionaries, village preachers, and community leaders. But obviously, we're talking about playing these classes as PCs... we're not talking about the random NPCs that do nothing interesting in the story.Ignoring, further, that a good 99.9% of the population of the Expert class are the "village blacksmiths" you mentioned, and that only, maybe 10-20% of monks fit the "elderly monastery retirees" demographic.
I strongly doubt 99.9% of Experts are village blacksmiths. For one thing, I imagine city blacksmiths are some of them. Also, I bet there's other professions, like librarians and tailors and artists. However, I imagine a heck of a lot of Monks are indeed folks that hang out in monasteries, while there's also plenty of them that wander about as impoverished truth seekers and the like. But less than .1% of any class is PC adventurers. Consider how many folks are just living in your metropolises that have nothing to do with the story.(Additionally ignoring for the moment, that you ignored the rest of what I said entirely, thereby missing the point) Seriously, do you see what you are doing here? You are responding to my quarry by creating an unequal and unrealistic model of comparison between the two classes. Just as you were with Summerstorm, and likely everyone else you've had this conversation with.
I'm not ignoring your point. I'm simply taking apart one of your arguments, namely the one where you want to compare a PC type Monk with an NPC type Expert. Since this discussion actually started in regards to the tiers, we're talking exclusively about PCs and thus you're completely off target.
Furthermore, there's been no double standard, no setting up Monks to fail. In fact, the Monks have been given amazing leniency. Consider the fact that Giacomo was running around claiming that he could make these high Int Monks that were skillmonkeys and claiming they were solid... while at the same time claiming that undead creatures with over twice the hitpoints and far more immunities were liabilities that would die constantly. That's your double standard.
The scenarios we've asked Monks to prove themselves in are the most basic, standard, and common of D&D scenarios. Since Monks are billed as a combat class, we expect them to fight well at the very least (which they have terrible problems doing) and by Giacomo's own claims, they can't even do that (let's face it, he thinks the sort of undead you get via Animate Dead die all the time... and yet his Monks have all been far less survivable).
For Experts, well, they can handle their area of expertise (which they can pick from among the various skill areas). And we expect when talking about PC Experts that they're going to pick useful adventuring skills (Diplomacy, UMD, Iaijutsu Focus, Handle Animal, Lucid Dreaming, etc), since we're not talking about the random guys about town.
JaronK
Despite the fact that it is listed as one of those classes, specifically in the DMG, that DOES NOT make a habit of going adventuring you mean?
Sure, just like most Fighters are actually guards, mercenaries, or warlords. Just like most Clerics are church functionaries, village preachers, and community leaders. But obviously, we're talking about playing these classes as PCs... we're not talking about the random NPCs that do nothing interesting in the story.Ignoring, further, that a good 99.9% of the population of the Expert class are the "village blacksmiths" you mentioned, and that only, maybe 10-20% of monks fit the "elderly monastery retirees" demographic.
I strongly doubt 99.9% of Experts are village blacksmiths. For one thing, I imagine city blacksmiths are some of them. Also, I bet there's other professions, like librarians and tailors and artists. However, I imagine a heck of a lot of Monks are indeed folks that hang out in monasteries, while there's also plenty of them that wander about as impoverished truth seekers and the like. But less than .1% of any class is PC adventurers. Consider how many folks are just living in your metropolises that have nothing to do with the story.(Additionally ignoring for the moment, that you ignored the rest of what I said entirely, thereby missing the point) Seriously, do you see what you are doing here? You are responding to my quarry by creating an unequal and unrealistic model of comparison between the two classes. Just as you were with Summerstorm, and likely everyone else you've had this conversation with.
I'm not ignoring your point. I'm simply taking apart one of your arguments, namely the one where you want to compare a PC type Monk with an NPC type Expert. Since this discussion actually started in regards to the tiers, we're talking exclusively about PCs and thus you're completely off target.
Furthermore, there's been no double standard, no setting up Monks to fail. In fact, the Monks have been given amazing leniency. Consider the fact that Giacomo was running around claiming that he could make these high Int Monks that were skillmonkeys and claiming they were solid... while at the same time claiming that undead creatures with over twice the hitpoints and far more immunities were liabilities that would die constantly. That's your double standard.
The scenarios we've asked Monks to prove themselves in are the most basic, standard, and common of D&D scenarios. Since Monks are billed as a combat class, we expect them to fight well at the very least (which they have terrible problems doing) and by Giacomo's own claims, they can't even do that (let's face it, he thinks the sort of undead you get via Animate Dead die all the time... and yet his Monks have all been far less survivable).
For Experts, well, they can handle their area of expertise (which they can pick from among the various skill areas). And we expect when talking about PC Experts that they're going to pick useful adventuring skills (Diplomacy, UMD, Iaijutsu Focus, Handle Animal, Lucid Dreaming, etc), since we're not talking about the random guys about town.
JaronK
Given the PC's pasts reasonably involve any number of of these previous careers, whereas the expert you describe lack any sort of realistic past. So I'm sorry, but you'll have to explain the point of your first comment here.
The "village blacksmith" I was talking about is the archetypical expert I was using for example, hence the quotation marks (although I suspect you already knew that). Yes Experts fill a number of different, non-combat/non-adventuring, roles, which does represent around 99.9% of the Expert population. And actually, given the fluff associated with them, most actual monks are not laymen. Most are disciples training towards physical and mental enlightenment, or (in a small minority) possibly impoverished wanderers (which are still more likely to prevail in the aforementioned situations than the 99.9% of the "Village Blacksmiths" out there). The people you seem to be associating with "monks" are more than likely clerics and, a bit ironically, experts.
Well, if you are picking one argument, I must than wonder why you picked the argument that was largely secondary to my main point, other than for perceived expedience. I am not defending everything Summerstorm (who I'll assume is the one you are referring to as Giacomo) has put forward. I am saying your treatments of the monk, via the comparisons you are making with the expert/adept here are unequal and unrealistic. Further, here you seem focused on what I can only imagine is previously "established" evidence. Arguments, which I might add, you have not established here. Further, the original discussion was not strictly concerning the tiers, but rather the state of the monk vs the adept, and to a lesser extant the expert. (Where it devolved to here is not my concern) So, instead of making the blank, unsupported claims that the monk fails at its apparent responsibilities these things, how about we stick to the original argument here, which is after all what my post was concerning. (Oh and in theory those skills are fine. In practice, you are scavenging skills from multiple, potentially conflicting campaign settings. Needless to say, this makes any Expert build including them rather unrealistic)
Also, it's funny to see you're so outraged by the expert's skill selection while you conveniently leave out Giacomo's Skill Prodigy monk that sinks most of his points into Int and ignores Monk class features in an attempt to emulate an Expert.Did he? (I'm assuming your talking about Twilightwyrm)
Also, it's funny to see you're so outraged by the expert's skill selection while you conveniently leave out Giacomo's Skill Prodigy monk that sinks most of his points into Int and ignores Monk class features in an attempt to emulate an Expert.Did he? (I'm assuming your talking about Twilightwyrm)
Giacomo's skill-monkey.Is that really necessary? :rollseyes
Maybe it's because his talking about theAdeptExpert and not about the Monk? It's totally his right to look only at the Expert and not concern himself with the Monk.
Did he say that the Monk build is okay in his eyes? If yes, then your right, if not then your accusations are not justified.
Since Monks are billed as a combat class, we expect them to fight well at the very least (which they have terrible problems doing).And right there explains your measuring stick. You expect to Monk to beat the crap out of monsters, and the Expert to blow goat droppings. When Gia can't deliver an Unarmed Swordsage you bitch about how he can't take on super undead and your favorite CRX monsters. Then claim that the Expert is awesome, not because he can beat those mobs, but because as a dirt poor loser he an uncomparable godsend because he kept throwing gold at encounters (UMD/trained pets) until he has an advantage in it.
For Experts, well, they can handle their area of expertise (which they can pick from among the various skill areas). And we expect when talking about PC Experts that they're going to pick useful adventuring skills (Diplomacy, UMD, Iaijutsu Focus, Handle Animal, Lucid Dreaming, etc), since we're not talking about the random guys about town.
1 Feat = Can replicate Expert's claim on throwing gold at encounters, Monk gets 3 bonus feats.3 shitty feats that really don't count because the monk can't use them and the adept or expert would not ever buy any way.
And right there explains your measuring stick. You expect to Monk to beat the crap out of monsters, and the Expert to blow goat droppings.
When Gia can't deliver an Unarmed Swordsage you bitch about how he can't take on super undead and your favorite CRX monsters.
Then claim that the Expert is awesome, not because he can beat those mobs, but because as a dirt poor loser he an uncomparable godsend because he kept throwing gold at encounters (UMD/trained pets) until he has an advantage in it.
Gia's side is. Well hell idk. Monks are super awesome maybe.
Since Monks are billed as a combat class, we expect them to fight well at the very least (which they have terrible problems doing).And right there explains your measuring stick. You expect to Monk to beat the crap out of monsters, and the Expert to blow goat droppings. When Gia can't deliver an Unarmed Swordsage you bitch about how he can't take on super undead and your favorite CRX monsters. Then claim that the Expert is awesome, not because he can beat those mobs, but because as a dirt poor loser he an uncomparable godsend because he kept throwing gold at encounters (UMD/trained pets) until he has an advantage in it.
For Experts, well, they can handle their area of expertise (which they can pick from among the various skill areas). And we expect when talking about PC Experts that they're going to pick useful adventuring skills (Diplomacy, UMD, Iaijutsu Focus, Handle Animal, Lucid Dreaming, etc), since we're not talking about the random guys about town.
Gia's side is. Well hell idk. Monks are super awesome maybe. If he really is JaronK though, I think there is some psychotic issues to resolve and the point here is showcasing them.
To me, this has been more of a simple math.
1 Feat = Can replicate Expert's claim on throwing gold at encounters, Monk gets 3 bonus feats. Therefor Monk is better.
Everything else is whining and ignoring while I'm picking though to find little nuggets of useful information. Like the Blink thing, that's pretty cool. The Total Concealment thing, damn thats awesome.
Furthermore, there's been no double standard, no setting up Monks to fail. In fact, the Monks have been given amazing leniency. Consider the fact that Giacomo was running around claiming that he could make these high Int Monks that were skillmonkeys and claiming they were solid... while at the same time claiming that undead creatures with over twice the hitpoints and far more immunities were liabilities that would die constantly. That's your double standard.
The scenarios we've asked Monks to prove themselves in are the most basic, standard, and common of D&D scenarios. Since Monks are billed as a combat class, we expect them to fight well at the very least (which they have terrible problems doing) and by Giacomo's own claims, they can't even do that (let's face it, he thinks the sort of undead you get via Animate Dead die all the time... and yet his Monks have all been far less survivable).
You were comparing my 7th level monk build to an animated skeleton storm giant, a CR 13 monster whose corpse miraculously was available to a level 12 adept, resulting in a CR 9 monster.
Nobody I know of compares classes this way.
I outlined above what a level 12 monk I moderately optimised recently for comparison with a psychic warrior (link see my last post in this thread) will do to such a (for a level 12 character!) puny monster. But to take a level 7 monk focused on skills with 22 pt buy and demand he should take on by himself this CR9 monster?
A guy that makes a living by taming wild animals and selling them but dreams to become a wizard?
He knows how to tame animals (Handle Animal), he knows how to talk people into buying his stuff (social skills) and in his free time he studies how to become a wizard, so he learns how to cast spells off scrolls and wands(UMD).
Also, it's funny to see you're so outraged by the expert's skill selection while you conveniently leave out Giacomo's Skill Prodigy monk that sinks most of his points into Int and ignores Monk class features in an attempt to emulate an Expert.
Why can't the monk use them?1 Feat = Can replicate Expert's claim on throwing gold at encounters, Monk gets 3 bonus feats.3 shitty feats that really don't count because the monk can't use them and the adept or expert would not ever buy any way.
Why can't the monk use them?1 Feat = Can replicate Expert's claim on throwing gold at encounters, Monk gets 3 bonus feats.3 shitty feats that really don't count because the monk can't use them and the adept or expert would not ever buy any way.
and that Monks are better than Experts because they can survive well by tanking their Wis and Str and pumping Int and Cha
Well, his argument is rubbish, IMO, because if the adventuring Expert with this skills isn't plausible RP-wise, then no skill-based class can be.
No, I compared what I assumed was a leveled up to 12 version of your 7th level Monk to the sort of stuff an Adept might raise, including Storm Giants, Hydras, and even the stuff I found via a random encounter generator (which would have resulted in, at caster level 12, 2 9 headed 18HD Zombie Hydras along with three Necrosis Carnexes). No miracles here... actual random generation. Do try and keep that straight.
The Giacomo here has violated these traits in such a way that does not follow the "logic" the original used. I am convinced that it is not him.I think you have more than 4 people because it isn't an assumption. It's quite obviously a fact *adjusts monocle* :sherlock .
If I can get four other people to back me up on that assumption, I'd like to put an end to this whole problem.
and that Monks are better than Experts because they can survive well by tanking their Wis and Str and pumping Int and Cha
Now, you see, this is why I call the Giacomo here a fake. The original had several defining traits that never changed, no matter how much we argued it:
- He believed that Core-only was balanced.
- He believed that Monks were SAD because they could pump Wis and never worry about needing Con for HP, since his AC could get "so high".
The Giacomo here has violated these traits in such a way that does not follow the "logic" the original used. I am convinced that it is not him.
If I can get four other people to back me up on that assumption, I'd like to put an end to this whole problem.
Wow, and all of a sudden two 18 HD Zombie Hydras turn up - zombies which we already clarified CANNOT use the hydras ability to move and still attack (so are always limited to 1 attack/round), since that is neither part of the monster statistics, nor the special abilities (it is the text between, remember?).
And you should really read aloud to yourself what you write here: you "compared what you assumed was a leveled up top 12 version of my 7th level Monk"! Incredible.
So, instead of comparing a 7th level monk I posted to the CR 9 storm giant skeleton, you compared it to a build that DOES NOT EVEN EXIST - which you just made up in your mind and which you thought I'd probably come up with. I did not believe you would surpass your previous level of double-standards, but comparing a CR 9 monster to a 12th level fictional monk build that I never did beats it all.
If I can get four other people to back me up on that assumption, I'd like to put an end to this whole problem.I find your number of people needed arbitrary and I really don't see the problem. I really don't care about taking sides about the debate of Sir Giacomo's identity, but bear in mind that people can change and his true identity doesn't actually matter. He is allowed to keep arguing here as long as he does it in a civilised manner and so far I haven't seen him miss many steps on that path.
Actually, his first post on this site to my knowledge was loudly proclaiming that I fail. It was actually quite adorable.Hence not 'many' steps off that path. Plenty of regulars here can get rather harsh and obtuse as well.
He can use a good chunk of them as well as anybody else. Deflect arrows, expertise, dodge etc...Why can't the monk use them?1 Feat = Can replicate Expert's claim on throwing gold at encounters, Monk gets 3 bonus feats.3 shitty feats that really don't count because the monk can't use them and the adept or expert would not ever buy any way.
He meant "use them as efficiently as other classes".
and that Monks are better than Experts because they can survive well by tanking their Wis and Str and pumping Int and Cha
Now, you see, this is why I call the Giacomo here a fake. The original had several defining traits that never changed, no matter how much we argued it:
- He believed that Core-only was balanced.
- He believed that Monks were SAD because they could pump Wis and never worry about needing Con for HP, since his AC could get "so high".
I love pulling the Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness at level 1 trick... just be a Crusader and be ridiculously hard to kill (at a level where most things only kill with hit point damage). Plus, you know, Kobold Crusader just has a certain ring to it.Well, kobolds ARE core...
JaronK
People in here got quite angry (and even linked me to Nazi Germany, among other things) so it does not need to get out of hand.More to the point, I suggested that you spend your time combating the resurgence of neo-Nazism.
I love pulling the Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with Epic Toughness at level 1 trick... just be a Crusader and be ridiculously hard to kill (at a level where most things only kill with hit point damage). Plus, you know, Kobold Crusader just has a certain ring to it.See monks are on par with dragonwrought kobolds, obviously they're broken. :D
JaronK
Five-Headed Hydra Zombie
Huge Undead
Hit Dice: 10d12+3 (68 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (–2 size, +10 natural), touch 8, fl at-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+17
Attack: 5 bites +7 melee (1d10+4) or slam +7 melee (2d6+4)
Full Attack: 5 bites +7 melee (1d10+4) or slam +7 melee
(2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Single actions only, damage reduction
5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Feats: Toughness
Challenge Rating: 4
Just for Giaccomo:: Libris Mortis pg. 173Five-Headed Hydra Zombie
Huge Undead
Hit Dice: 10d12+3 (68 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (–2 size, +10 natural), touch 8, fl at-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+17
Attack: 5 bites +7 melee (1d10+4) or slam +7 melee (2d6+4)
Full Attack: 5 bites +7 melee (1d10+4) or slam +7 melee
(2d6+4)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Single actions only, damage reduction
5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1
Feats: Toughness
Challenge Rating: 4
Note the attack entry.
Well ... that is a good find. And I stand corrected!Unless he goes and hunts down a hydra, which he is fully capable of doing. Or, y'know, finds one of the myriad other critters around that make for awesome undead and can be disguised as a humanoid type or a living pet.
So really the "statistics" part in the zombie and skeleton template includes also the hydra's ability to attack with all heads and move (and in the zombie's case, just charge and attack or just attack).
Meaning...that in the 1% max case that an adept will encounter a hydra, defeats it and animates it, he'll have a skeleton hydra able to move and attack with all heads. Definitely more useful in that case (and more survivable with that improved attacking power).
However, I still doubt that will make an adept's strategy to run around with undead a viable tactics over the long run (note that the huge hydra cannot be put into that enveloping pit since that is too small for it, so the adept with, say, several such no-skill-no-sneaky skeletal hydras just announces from afar that he comes...).
- Giacomo
Well ... that is a good find. And I stand corrected!
So really the "statistics" part in the zombie and skeleton template includes also the hydra's ability to attack with all heads and move (and in the zombie's case, just charge and attack or just attack).
Meaning...that in the 1% max case that an adept will encounter a hydra, defeats it and animates it, he'll have a skeleton hydra able to move and attack with all heads. Definitely more useful in that case (and more survivable with that improved attacking power).
However, I still doubt that will make an adept's strategy to run around with undead a viable tactics over the long run (note that the huge hydra cannot be put into that enveloping pit since that is too small for it, so the adept with, say, several such no-skill-no-sneaky skeletal hydras just announces from afar that he comes...).
- Giacomo
2) ... you don't have to spend tons of cash on expendibles
What's the advantage of having a spell on your List vs. just using UMD on any old item ... ???
1) ... don't have to visit a Magic Mart
2) ... X__________________________
Well ... that is a good find. And I stand corrected!
So really the "statistics" part in the zombie and skeleton template includes also the hydra's ability to attack with all heads and move (and in the zombie's case, just charge and attack or just attack).
Meaning...that in the 1% max case that an adept will encounter a hydra, defeats it and animates it, he'll have a skeleton hydra able to move and attack with all heads. Definitely more useful in that case (and more survivable with that improved attacking power).
However, I still doubt that will make an adept's strategy to run around with undead a viable tactics over the long run (note that the huge hydra cannot be put into that enveloping pit since that is too small for it, so the adept with, say, several such no-skill-no-sneaky skeletal hydras just announces from afar that he comes...).
So we've gone from trying to beat Batman to failing against NPC classes, how the mighty have fallen.
Sigh. If I were to start a "commoner vs wizard" thread, would the mere existence of such a thread mean the wizard sure must be a sucky class? Thought so.
Sigh. If I were to start a "commoner vs wizard" thread, would the mere existence of such a thread mean the wizard sure must be a sucky class? Thought so.
@JaronK: Maybe I am missing something here. Please do me a favour and show to me how you think a typical fight of a 12th level adept with his animated zombie hydras would play out vs a, say CR 12 dragon.
- Giacomo
So, how would those skill monkey Monks you talked up so much deal with a CR 12 dragon? A Mature Adult White Dragon, for example (that's the only evil dragon in the MM that is CR 12). You know, the ones you forgot to put decent ranged weapons on in the CR 7 version? How would they do it? How would they even contribute without falling over dead due to being too fragile?
JaronK
So, how would those skill monkey Monks you talked up so much deal with a CR 12 dragon? A Mature Adult White Dragon, for example (that's the only evil dragon in the MM that is CR 12). You know, the ones you forgot to put decent ranged weapons on in the CR 7 version? How would they do it? How would they even contribute without falling over dead due to being too fragile?
JaronK
How would a leveled up expert from that same thread do?
How would a leveled up expert from that same thread do?
Heck the adept (or expert) could buy a scroll of minor creation for 700 gps and use it to get 30,000 or so doses of black lotus extract (3d6 con initial damage, 3d6 con secondary damage, DC 20) for 7 hours, enough for the adept and his undead to last the whole adventuring day. Sooner or later the dragon is going to have a bad roll and you could put the extract in vials so it become a ranged touch attack and the dragon only has a touch AC of 9 so it won't be hard to spam throwing poison between yourself, your familiar, and any undead or animals (like apes) capable of throwing things.
Note that nothing stops the Adept from putting poison on the mouths of the hydras if he's using a similar trick. 9 poison attacks really hurts.
JaronK
I demand an image of this. I can only pray that Sinmaker's Surprise is some ridiculous color, like hot pink or fluorescent orange.Fire and pinstripes.
I demand an image of this. I can only pray that Sinmaker's Surprise is some ridiculous color, like hot pink or fluorescent orange.
... late Thank You to Lyca.So in appreciation you show me girls?
I'd link in the classic Hercules killing a hydra print, but it's got naked men in it so it's probably against the rules...Just toss it in a spoiler block.
JaronK
... late Thank You to Lyca.So in appreciation you show me girls?
C'mon, man! What'd I ever do to you?
I think I'm good with JaronK's Hydra man pose. Thanks.... late Thank You to Lyca.So in appreciation you show me girls?
C'mon, man! What'd I ever do to you?
Sheesh ... I got as many things like "Sinmakers Surprise" as possible. And the I feel lucky button.
In your case, umm ... see my snake brain wiring is a tad more "traditional" than yours. Hence my above reaction.
Do you want me to link you to a :sparta "smiley" face ??
:D
I was gonna do one of my: { ... insert blah blah smiley face ... } -esThey [insert] monks pretty good.
But then I realized the word "insert" could be interpreted as [censored].
Sooo ... Adepts ?!
5) ... if you want to use expendibles then you don't have to deal with the additional potential failure (and losing access to the item for 24 hours if you fail on a nat 1)As far as I know skills failing in a natural 1 is an alternative rule in the DMG, unlike saving throws and attacks 1 is not an automatic failure just like taking 20 isn't an automatic success, if your skill modifier is optimized enough bad luck won't ever be a problem.
Yes, and if you roll a nat 1 on a UMD check and it fails, you screw yourself for 24 hours.5) ... if you want to use expendibles then you don't have to deal with the additional potential failure (and losing access to the item for 24 hours if you fail on a nat 1)As far as I know skills failing in a natural 1 is an alternative rule in the DMG, unlike saving throws and attacks 1 is not an automatic failure just like taking 20 isn't an automatic success, if your skill modifier is optimized enough bad luck won't ever be a problem.
Yes, and if you roll a nat 1 on a UMD check and it fails, you screw yourself for 24 hours.5) ... if you want to use expendibles then you don't have to deal with the additional potential failure (and losing access to the item for 24 hours if you fail on a nat 1)As far as I know skills failing in a natural 1 is an alternative rule in the DMG, unlike saving throws and attacks 1 is not an automatic failure just like taking 20 isn't an automatic success, if your skill modifier is optimized enough bad luck won't ever be a problem.
3.0e had fail on a 1, for all skills.
20 was supposed to be a "critical success", but they never did anything with that.
Well, dragon fights are often in large lairs, so I'd try to hit him with a Web when he's near a wall to cause him to stop flying (and, due to stalling, make him fall).
Then the hydras could attack him.
Or maybe metamagic'd Scorching Rays if that wouldn't work (12d6 damage from touch attacks hurts, and with the right metamagic it could be impressive...
it's not enough to kill on its own but it could certainly support a party in such an attack).
Maybe he'd just buff the party's stats. After all, this is a caster, and thus has options...
the Hydras are more for taking out ground based opponents (but you knew that, that's why you picked a flier).
The Hydras are just the effects of one of his spells.
And then once the dragon is dead, I'd animate him, since dragons make for awesome animated dead (see the Draconomicon rules for their special stuff with regards to animate dead). I'd probably make him a Zombie, because evidently I didn't have any flying undead at the time. So now I have a nice flying zombie dragon mount with an insane number of hitpoints, making the character even stronger. That's always fun.
So, how would those skill monkey Monks you talked up so much deal with a CR 12 dragon? A Mature Adult White Dragon, for example (that's the only evil dragon in the MM that is CR 12). You know, the ones you forgot to put decent ranged weapons on in the CR 7 version? How would they do it? How would they even contribute without falling over dead due to being too fragile?
JaronK
Let us wait with the monk for now.
Yeah, honestly, I don't expect the Adept to win in a combat with a sensible dragon of the same CR. So pointing out problems doesn't really matter; what would matter is pointing out problems, and then explaining why the Monk doesn't have those problems.And this is a perfect opportunity for Giacomo!
Thanks, JaronK, for your first ideas on a scenario of a 12th level adept vs a CR 12 dragon – apparently you chose the mature adult white dragon for the comparison of adept and monk performance.
I think maybe you would like to present in more detail the build, the spells learned, and round-by-round the tactics that you would think would give the adept a better chance than the monk.
Hm. A white dragon in his cave due to his icewalking ability likely will be near a wall, so web could be tried. Still…say, the adept as a Wisdom of 22, this would mean a reflex save DC of 18 (not counting any feats to enhance this). A mature adult white dragon has a reflex save of +12, so likely he’ll avoid the web and burrow away, resurfacing outside the web area to attack.
They could, if they would reach him. They are slower (zombies even!) than the dragon and can neither fly, nor burrow, nor climb the walls. And even if they reach him, they’d need to hit his AC 28 (note that the slow movement of the hydras makes flanking difficult). The dragon has also the ability to use a fog cloud for concealment (effectively halving the 20 head attacks of the hydra) and has AC 28 with DR 10/magic. I do not see much damage being done by the hydras here.
What kind of metamagic do you intend the scorching rays to have? They are 2nd level, and you only have 1 fourth level slot (I guess you’d rather have polymorph in there?), and some third level slots. You might use rods of metamagic, though – although they are quite pricy.
Maybe they are not needed – since you’d do double damage vs the white dragon and do 24d6. But the spell resistance of 20 would need to be considered, and any miss chance due to the fog cloud would push a chance of success below 50%. And even if successful, 24d6=average 84 damage is a far cry from getting this 241hp dragon into trouble.
So the adept with his zombies is in a party now? Well, in a party this looks already different. I daresay, though, that the zombies (from a long way alerting the dragon) and the close-range-only scorching ray are not exactly helping the party much.
I dunno. The adept has some good healing magic, but buffs…by level 12, most in the group will have magic items providing the +4 stat boost that the 2nd level spells of the adept are offering; ditto for invisibility/concealment – and the first and 3rd level spells are not that hot either. Polymorph IS good … once per day.
They are ground-bound. And once animated and the cost is paid for, the controlling limit means there are no zombie/skeleton fliers. Of course, appropriate flyers that can fight well are quite rare (which is why you picked a hydra to animate :) ).
Still, I accepted your scenario of a fight in a dragon’s lair where flying may not be that important. But even in this case I do not see much the zombies can do – they will likely perish with the dragon just breathing on them every 1d4 rounds, from out of range. The adept might be able to retreat, as the party – but not the slow-moving-single-action hydra zombies. Which has been my point all along.
Animate dead, alongside polymorph, is the single big spell of the adept’s arsenal at level 12 (maybe minor creation as well, but for that it is either polymorph or minor creation..1/day). And even that is apparently – so far – not enough to endanger, much less defeat a CR 12 dragon. But maybe when you would provide a complete build with synergizing items, the picture may be different.
The animated dragon would need to be one of HD 10 or lower for zombies and HD 20 for skeletal non-flying version (not possible to animate a bigger one). So this white dragon is out.
Let us wait with the monk for now.
Or, you admit that the adept has no chance to take on the white dragon – then I’ll show you how the monk does it. (note that it does not need to be a skill monkey monk since in a comparison with the adept, the monk already has more skill points and better skill range out of the box).
Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense ;)JaronK has poor formatting in his post.
OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.
- Giacomo
Hah! I swordsaged ya!Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense ;)JaronK has poor formatting in his post.
OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.
- Giacomo
Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense ;)
OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.
- Giacomo
Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense ;)
OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.
- Giacomo
Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense ;)
Hmmm. Quite amazing how the reactions go from "adept needs party" ... "dragon too tough for adept" now that a threat looms that the monk can do it new ideas jump up for the adept's defense ;)
OK. Would anyone like to point out the obvious mistakes in Lunarambling's and JaronK's ideas?
I'll wait for a while to see what will be posted.
- Giacomo
Only one Metamagic Rod can be applied to any given spell, jaron, but the point remains that two shots downs the dragon.
I wasn't sure what point buy to use either, but I decided I was going to do it with low optimization, hence the 25 point buy. I think that's clearly an Adept who's useful in lots of situations though (note the Imp has a ton of useful skills including Diplomacy and amazing stealth abilities).
JaronK
I saw a campaign based entirely around the tarrasque once. They chopped it up for all sorts of uses. Food, housing... They even fermented its blood for an alcoholic beverage.If you're going that way, you even have varying power source sizes, ratballs for personal rotary power supply, T-Rexballs for industrial use...Just use zombie hamster ball engines to power water pumps and you can even make the ball a sealed globe.
Thousand of years later people forget why those balls revolve.
Campaign setting stolen.
We could probably solve this by having a neutral third party DM a fight between said CR 12 white dragon, a pre-made identical party to assist, and Giacomo playing his Monk with JaronK playing his Adept. Or even just a straight up 1 on 1 vs the dragon or another monster fight. Or both, as it seems each side is arguing independently here...
In the interests of peace and neutrality, I'd volunteer to do the DMing. If we are assuming an optimized character however we should also assume the DM is optimizing his dragons by selecting better feats or spells (as I often do with some low-powered monsters, seriously Wizards, what's with the hard-on for Toughness and Alertness?).
Shinzen, your suggestion to DM is very friendly.
As a DM, though, looking at the builds that Lunaramblings and JaronK have provided - do you see any problem here (ruleswise, tactics, expectations of the dragon's tactics)?
I know what I would say as a DM, if my players would show them to me, but I am interested in what would you think.
To provide a bit of background, Shinzen: I have tried playtesting for monks, duels, special challenge tests. Many, many times I tried. Some of those who accuse me now being a troll have actually already participated in those tests or followed them closely. All to no avail - even though in my view I clearly showed the merits of the monk, I was unable to convince most of the monk sceptics. So I am hesitant that a playtest which involves a lot of effort from all sides is going be worthwhile.
I'll wait for your answer and then I'll post my concerns on the two adept builds. Maybe some will see similar problems.
- Giacomo
I also have no problem with custom magic items, except when used in an obviously unintended manner (True Strike Continuous for 2000gp), but in terms of slots, if you want to combine two items into one slot, I'd rule you would use a cost of 1.5(A+B) where A and B are the costs of the items you are combining. If it's three effects 2.0(A+b+c) and so on. This of course excludes standard bonuses as show in MiC.
I also have no problem with custom magic items, except when used in an obviously unintended manner (True Strike Continuous for 2000gp), but in terms of slots, if you want to combine two items into one slot, I'd rule you would use a cost of 1.5(A+B) where A and B are the costs of the items you are combining. If it's three effects 2.0(A+b+c) and so on. This of course excludes standard bonuses as show in MiC.
IIRC, the MiC rules are that the base item costs normal price, as does adding in a "standard boost." Then all additional features cost 50% above normal, so a Circlet of Intelligence that was also a Circlet of Command and a Hat of Disguise and an Admiral's Bicorn would cost the normal price of an Admiral's Bicorn, plus the normal cost of a Circlet of Intelligence (since that's a standard bonus), + 1.5 * the cost of a Hat of Disguise, +1.5 * the cost of a Circlet of Command.
And seriously, can anyone else point out mistakes in my Adept? I mean, I figured I was making a really basic Adept, with nothing objectionable about it. Snakeman pointed out I can't Maximize and Enlarge in the same shot, but that's hardly a big deal.
JaronK
Metamagic Rods
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.
It just costs a small amount more.: SRDMetamagic Rods
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
Seems fine, but if I was DMing I'd likely make you put the 1.5x cost on the more expensive rod.Them's houserules, though, since the MIC explicitly states that you add 1.5x the cost of the less expensive one.
Seems fine, but if I was DMing I'd likely make you put the 1.5x cost on the more expensive rod.Them's houserules, though, since the MIC explicitly states that you add 1.5x the cost of the less expensive one.
JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.
It just costs a small amount more.
Please Giacomo, point out what was wrong? I mean, I wrote that up in about twenty minutes, so perhaps I missed something, but please, show me the error of my ways.
And seriously, can anyone else point out mistakes in my Adept? I mean, I figured I was making a really basic Adept, with nothing objectionable about it. Snakeman pointed out I can't Maximize and Enlarge in the same shot, but that's hardly a big deal.
JaronK
I’ll wait now for your reaction and then think on a level 12 monk build.I suggest you think up a level 12 Monk build NOW.
- Giacomo
I concur. You're the self-proposed expert at building monks here. Snakeman830 and I came up with a really nice build that uses the monk's strengths. You should be better than us by a wide margin, since neither of us had really made a monk before.I’ll wait now for your reaction and then think on a level 12 monk build.I suggest you think up a level 12 Monk build NOW.
- Giacomo
Doesn't Giacomo have an entire guide filled with monk builds?Which all suck and he knows this. Which is obviously why he hasn't thrown one at us.
JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.
It just costs a small amount more.
Nah, honestly it was such a quick and dirty build that I threw together a few things that seemed useful. If I was really going to get into it, I'd have gotten more useful gear.
@Shiz: It's in the page before this one, I think. CR 12 Adept with an Imp familiar. Designed to craft items for a party, have his familiar handle most social stuff, build things, and be a minion master. Here, I'll put him up there again (note that he shouldn't be combining the rod effects into a single casting):
[spoiler]Herbert the Somewhat Special (25 Point Buy)
Lawful Neutral Human Adept 12 (68hp)
BAB 6, Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +14
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 23, Cha 8
Feats: Alertness, Corpse Crafter, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Familiar, Mother Cyst, Nimble Bones
Skills: Craft Armorsmithing +10, Concentration +15, Handle Animal +10, Knowledge (The Religion) +10
Minions:
Familiar: Imp
Tiny Outsider, 12 HD, 34hp, Init +3, Spd 20 Fly 50 (perfect), AC 26 (Touch 15, Flat Foot 23), BAB +6, Grapple -5, Attack +11 Melee (1d4 + Poison, Sting), Darkvision 60, Deliver Touch Speels, DR 5/good or silver, Fast Healing 2, Immunity to Poison, Improved Evasion, Resistance to Fire 5, Speak with Master, For +4, Ref +7, Will +7, Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 14, Diplomacy +8, Hide +17, Knowledge The Planes +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Search +6, Spellcraft +6, Spot +7, Survival +1, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Poison (DC 16, 1d4 Dex, 2d4 Dex), At Will Detect Good Detect Magic Invisibility (Self Only), 1/day Suggestion CL 6. Commune 1/week 6 questions. Alternate form into one or two forms (technically this could be anything up to Medium size, including Dwarf Ancestors and other such nonsense. But I'll assume from the examples they meant any animal, so how about a Legendary Ape or Legendary Eagle?). SR 17, Empathic Link
2 Nine Headed Zombie Hydras wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirt Barding (900gp, 2400gp for crafted mithral armor)
2 Necrosis Carnexes wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirts (400g in Cold Iron Bands, 800gp for crafted Mithral armor)
A few assorted big warbeast animals as appropriate to the campaign (dinosaurs, dire animals, or whatever other big war creatures are available, preferably Magebreed).
Items: Lesser Metamagic Wand of Empower (9kgp), Lesser Metamagic Wand of Maximize (14kgp), Heward's Handy Haversack (2kgp), Orange Ioun Stone (15kgp), 2 4th level Pearls of Power (16kgp), 2 Second Level Pearls of Power (4kgp), Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16kgp), Mithral Chain Shirt (400gp), Deadwalker's Ring (2kgp), Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (3kgp, get one of the save maneuvers)
Wealth 2.1kgp left over for whatever
Basic tactics: walk around with the Hydras flanking him (with standing orders as before to attack anyone who attacks his party or anyone who his party attacks), Carnexes ordered to heal his minions and otherwise stay out of the line of fire, any animals trained to attack (and to not freak out around the undead). When possible, use Necrotic Cysts followed by Necrotic Dominations to control potential allies and downed (but not killed) enemies. Against this dragon, use both metamagic wands to fire a Scorching Ray if it gets too close, which will do 108+9d6 damage (two hits should kill it). If it's out of range, web it so the zombies can come kill it. Since White Dragons like to get up close and personal, this shouldn't be too much of an issue. Note that there may be further minions here... animals are possible, as are dominated allies. But I wasn't sure what to go with here.
And yes, this guy could solo the dragon, which has no attacks long range enough to effectively strafe safely. Heck, he brings quite a party with him (dependent on what he manages to dominate). I assume that's good enough? And before anyone freaks out about the crafting... please see the DMG, which explicitly states in the section on starting above 1st level that you can craft gear at discounted price before the game starts.[/spoiler]
JaronK
JaronK, if you wanted to add both metamagic rod abilities onto a single rod, you could use both on a single spell if you wanted to. After all, it's two feats, but still only one rod, which segues neatly with the rod's rules text.
It just costs a small amount more.
Nah, honestly it was such a quick and dirty build that I threw together a few things that seemed useful. If I was really going to get into it, I'd have gotten more useful gear.
@Shiz: It's in the page before this one, I think. CR 12 Adept with an Imp familiar. Designed to craft items for a party, have his familiar handle most social stuff, build things, and be a minion master. Here, I'll put him up there again (note that he shouldn't be combining the rod effects into a single casting):
[spoiler]Herbert the Somewhat Special (25 Point Buy)
Lawful Neutral Human Adept 12 (68hp)
BAB 6, Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +14
Str 9, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 23, Cha 8
Feats: Alertness, Corpse Crafter, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Familiar, Mother Cyst, Nimble Bones
Skills: Craft Armorsmithing +10, Concentration +15, Handle Animal +10, Knowledge (The Religion) +10
Minions:
Familiar: Imp
Tiny Outsider, 12 HD, 34hp, Init +3, Spd 20 Fly 50 (perfect), AC 26 (Touch 15, Flat Foot 23), BAB +6, Grapple -5, Attack +11 Melee (1d4 + Poison, Sting), Darkvision 60, Deliver Touch Speels, DR 5/good or silver, Fast Healing 2, Immunity to Poison, Improved Evasion, Resistance to Fire 5, Speak with Master, For +4, Ref +7, Will +7, Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 14, Diplomacy +8, Hide +17, Knowledge The Planes +6, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Search +6, Spellcraft +6, Spot +7, Survival +1, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Poison (DC 16, 1d4 Dex, 2d4 Dex), At Will Detect Good Detect Magic Invisibility (Self Only), 1/day Suggestion CL 6. Commune 1/week 6 questions. Alternate form into one or two forms (technically this could be anything up to Medium size, including Dwarf Ancestors and other such nonsense. But I'll assume from the examples they meant any animal, so how about a Legendary Ape or Legendary Eagle?). SR 17, Empathic Link
2 Nine Headed Zombie Hydras wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirt Barding (900gp, 2400gp for crafted mithral armor)
2 Necrosis Carnexes wearing crafted Mithral Chain Shirts (400g in Cold Iron Bands, 800gp for crafted Mithral armor)
A few assorted big warbeast animals as appropriate to the campaign (dinosaurs, dire animals, or whatever other big war creatures are available, preferably Magebreed).
Items: Lesser Metamagic Wand of Empower (9kgp), Lesser Metamagic Wand of Maximize (14kgp), Heward's Handy Haversack (2kgp), Orange Ioun Stone (15kgp), 2 4th level Pearls of Power (16kgp), 2 Second Level Pearls of Power (4kgp), Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16kgp), Mithral Chain Shirt (400gp), Deadwalker's Ring (2kgp), Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (3kgp, get one of the save maneuvers)
Wealth 2.1kgp left over for whatever
Basic tactics: walk around with the Hydras flanking him (with standing orders as before to attack anyone who attacks his party or anyone who his party attacks), Carnexes ordered to heal his minions and otherwise stay out of the line of fire, any animals trained to attack (and to not freak out around the undead). When possible, use Necrotic Cysts followed by Necrotic Dominations to control potential allies and downed (but not killed) enemies. Against this dragon, use both metamagic wands to fire a Scorching Ray if it gets too close, which will do 108+9d6 damage (two hits should kill it). If it's out of range, web it so the zombies can come kill it. Since White Dragons like to get up close and personal, this shouldn't be too much of an issue. Note that there may be further minions here... animals are possible, as are dominated allies. But I wasn't sure what to go with here.
And yes, this guy could solo the dragon, which has no attacks long range enough to effectively strafe safely. Heck, he brings quite a party with him (dependent on what he manages to dominate). I assume that's good enough? And before anyone freaks out about the crafting... please see the DMG, which explicitly states in the section on starting above 1st level that you can craft gear at discounted price before the game starts.[/spoiler]
JaronK
For the Imp's alternate form there is actually a restrictive list: "Alternate Form (Su)
An imp can assume another form at will as a standard action. Each imp can assume one or two forms from the following list: Small or Medium monstrous spider, raven, rat, and boar." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm)
Besides that, all the minions and items seem fine, I have no problem with crafting (How the hell do you expect the Artificer to be worth anything otherwise?) Let's assume for the sake of argument that you only have the Zombies (accessable easily by class spells) and not the myriad groups of warbeasts, not because I think they are unlikely, but to show a worst-case scenario for Giacomo.
Ok, so a Mature Adult White (CR 12) will have DR 10/ Magic and cast as a 3rd level sorcerer (Who the hell designed this progression? Wouldn't it make more sense to go 2 +2N with sorcerer casting?) which basically just means first level spells. He has SR 20, which could be increased with feats but you have a CL of 13, so it would be a waste to try to pump it overmuch. Your Hydras are not going to be much help unbuffed as they don't bypass his DR and 1d10+6 averages out to 1.5 damage a round per bite that hits. He could probably tank them if not for the Scorching Ray death. A chained Greater Magic Fang or Magic Fang would counter this.
It's only shot at countering you I could see would involve Blindsense, Fog Cloud or equivalent, and/or strafing with Entangling Exhalation breath weapon. Damage over time would be middling to useless, but a slow effect could slowly wear down your zombies if it had any way to counter the Scorching Ray death that you bring. It has a Touch AC of 8 and not even enough caster levels for a Mirror Image. Of course, if it could have it's loot as magic items that would change things as well. But your build seems to me to be capable of taking down the White Dragon handily even if I built it specifically to counter you, given the constraints. If it had some way to mitigate or counter the Fire damage or the touch attack of the ray, it would likely be able to win, however. Hmm, Charm Person to get a few low-will save allies is the only thing I can think of he could exploit, but most classes that would fail a will that low (It has 12 CHA, DC 12.) would be either useless or pushing the bounds of credibility.
Wait... Nerveskitter, if he wins Initiative he can Grapple you at +37 and likely tank the Hydras and others long enough to kill you the round after. Even if he loses initiative, he might take just enough from the Scorching Ray to still allow him to tank the Hydras long enough to Grapple you. At that point it's basically over.
So, which monk are you against?
- Your zombie zoo is as unstealthy as the other adept’s skeletons (you even wish to add bought wearbeast animals to it, see below for more on this). They are also slower (even with nimble bones) due to single action (=move) only per round. I simply cannot fathom how you can believe to get an edge with this against a flying, burrowing, smart, stealthy creature like the mature adult white dragon – IN ITS LAIR EVEN! You basically guarantee to a CR 12 monster a surprise round. Great. That particular monster has a surprise round charge range (with reach) of 110ish ft. It charges and snatches/kills your adept as soon as it notices it is the head of the troupe (which is obvious due to your spoken commands, yes – that is another drawback of the animate dead spell). End of story. The only chance I see is get more protection up via spells or items (like invisibility or a ring of invisbility). But even then: see blindsight/blind-fight. For a combat drawn out longer, all the dragon’s better tactical options like more movement modes, faster movement, things like snatch, great stealth with skills, and even some spells and fog cloud spamming will mean the adept has a problem at his hands.
- The empower/maximize doubling rod has already been pointed out. Still, your scorching ray will also have to handle the SR 20 as the other build – even further reducing its effectiveness here since you only have the rod of maximize (lesser). So, only 60ish damage per scorching ray. By himself, the adept will have to have 4 rounds or more of scorching rays even unimpeded to down this dragon. But I guess your adept will not have this time.
- At this point please do me favour: do not maintain that I have a dragon tactics that says “dragon breathes every 1d4 round at zombies and does nothing else”. Or I say that your adept just stands there, does a web and a scorching ray and nothing else in combat (no new commands to the undead, no movement, no other spells, no nothing). Please. This is not worthy of this discussion I daresay.
- You maintain that even if the dragon makes the save vs the web spell (which is quite likely) he is still slowed. He is not slowed, but entangled (which is a huge difference). He can still move through the web (at half speed, aha, take the flying 200ft move and divide it by two – in the web area only). Really – being entangled for this dragon for 10ft movement duration is a non-issue for this dragon.
It says you can craft stuff at half price before the game starts. I'm not sure what's so hard for you to understand about this... it's explicit. But you're right, it's unbalancingly powerful to do this... and the Adept can do it (as can almost all casters). Surprise surprise, more powerful classes are more powerful.
- Then… massive wbl transgression. I do not know how Shinzen would view this, but this should usually not be allowed. Yes, the DMG says you can craft (and thus confers the advantage to get more powerful items than obtainable from the settlements in the area), but…it also says to strictly adhere to wbl or imbalance ensues.
All classes can spend XP to get cheaper items (see item familiar feat), and all classes have ways to make extra money.
We should not include this here. Or, due to XP cost lower your level and I use my item familiar monk version. And…the wbl limit should also apply to mithral armour. And the hydra armour price looks too low….they are huge size and I think this should be reflected in the cost of the armour. [/li][/list]
Familiars are a class feature of adepts. Leadership is not a class feature of Monks, nor is it even related to one. Leadership, again, is a super powered feat, while Improved Familiar is rarely taken because it's not a huge deal. Again, for a Monk to catch up, you must optimize far more heavily. You're proving the point over and over. And Improved Familiar is perfectly allowed in CW... all the various possible Improved Familiars (found in a number of books, actually) are available.
- Also, the DMG version of the improved familiar feat (not the CW one that iirc does not give access to imp) is entirely in the DM’s hands. It is similar to leadership this way (in this case even called a “variant” feat). An imp is a powerful minion. Do you intend to see my monk using cohorts of any kind?
(funnily, by RAW, you need arcane caster levels for the better DMG familiars – and the adept is a divine caster –and even though the adept is also in the DMG no exception is mentioned here). Ah, and the imp assume shape list means exactly what is written there: no legendary apes or mineral dwarves. Just the monsters mentioned.
- As far as I know, the necrotic cysts are touch range only and allow fort saves. No big help vs the dragon (or does your adept intend to charge it and eat combat reflexes and potential bite/snatch attack doing so?).
I said standing order to heal only if it was safe to do so, otherwise stay hidden and out of sight. So no, it's not running out there while the dragon is breathing (but it might run out there after the dragon does so, since it's got 1d4 rounds of safety, or when the dragon is being gang jumped by minions).
- The carnexes…I had a look at that creature. First of all, it will succumb likely immediately to a breath weapon attack.
Meaning no more healing afterwards. Then, in a 1d4 breath weapon/heal showdown, the two carnexes each do 2d6+2 healing to one target each per round, while all zombies (including the carnexes) take 7d6ish damage every 1+1d4 rounds.
Truth to tell, the cold-exploding carnexes would in a last burst heal the other zombies, but…;) Most horribly, the carnexes in a 30ft radius will give -2 to saves and attack to all living creatures (including the adept). The warbeast animals will not be amused about this, likely meaning the adept will have to push them to remain near (a full-round action for one animal each, so while one is pushed, the others run away or do what animals do when confronted with something harmful –also the push DC is 25, not quite sure the adept makes it with his +9 bonus).
- Most importantly, though – since it was brought up – the group compatibility/helpfulness is also used when assessing the adept’s abilities. And here, I must say, the group will likely have major issues. It is not only the permanent -2 to saves and to hit (that or remain at quite a distance to this zombie troupe). It is also means that the party can never surprise someone (or they have to leave this adept’s main usefulness- his zombie and animal army- behind). Overland and in a dungeon they are moving as if slowed (since the zombies only take a single move each round). In total, JaronK’S adept appears to be one of the biggest party permanent debuffs that I have ever seen in a build (and this does not include that in many scenarios - tight humanoid- sized dungeons for the huge hydras, city adventures, diplomatic adventures at the royal court etc. – the zombies will have to be parked somewhere, with uncertainty as to their fate and their danger to innocents/non-party-foes in between).
- Yes, the adept may offer with 32,000 gp two pearls of power 3 polymorph buffs/day, also occasional stat boosts and minor healing to those characters at 12th level that do not already have it via permanent items and class abilities. But seriously…that will not outweigh the damage done all the time to the group performance.
Jaronk has money left over and should have bought Anklets of Translocation. Problem resolved?
So you <3 the <3?Jaronk has money left over and should have bought Anklets of Translocation. Problem resolved?
Assuming he affords them and they don't require a somatic component, yup that'd do it.
Freedom of Movement from a Heart of Water buff would have been my choice of counter though. I love all the Heart spells so much.
So you <3 the <3?Jaronk has money left over and should have bought Anklets of Translocation. Problem resolved?
Assuming he affords them and they don't require a somatic component, yup that'd do it.
Freedom of Movement from a Heart of Water buff would have been my choice of counter though. I love all the Heart spells so much.
Armor, Shield, or Weapon Special Ability
...
Prerequisite
The item familiar must be a type of magic armor, a magic shield, or a magic weapon.
Improving An Item Familiar
An item familiar can be improved as other magic items can be. By spending gold pieces (and time and experience points, assuming the character is the one doing the work), a character can add new abilities to his item familiar. If a character links himself to a +1 longsword, for example, it only costs 6,000 gp (or 3,000 gp and 240 XP) to add another +1 of enhancement bonus or, perhaps, a special ability that is equivalent to a +1 bonus (such as spell storing or flaming). The character can accomplish this even without having the requisite item creation feats.
Out of curiosity, does anyone believe that Giacomo's build (complete with Item Familiars and retraining and ACFs) is "equivalent optimization" to the Adept?Not at all. I personally love the part where he tries to Grapple and ends up getting his arm bitten half-off since he provokes an AoO and thus wastes his entire turn.
JaronK
Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.
This is starting to get really odd.
OK, Shinzen, you are new to this thread – but do not get deceived by the thread regulars like Lycanthromancer here. They all know that EVEN IN THIS THREAD (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12198.msg417670#msg417670) I have already linked a 12th level monk (and discussed it with some of them, including Lycanthromancer in another thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11801.msg408314#msg408314)) that imo should be easily rated better than these anti-group necromancer adepts.
@the others: please, at least a minimum of fairness here – if you pretend to ignore my arguments and do not react to them, just at least do not do it so obviously. Thank you.
Shinzen, please have a look at my monk build (it is toned down to 25pt buy from the original version, but also exceeds wbl like the adept, here with an item familiar)
Herv, the somewhat-more-special-than-Herbert, 12th level human monk
[spoiler]
BASIC SETUP
Substitution levels:
1 Decisive Strike
2 Invisible Fist
3 Wall Walker
4 Holy Strike
5 Planar Monk (fire resistance 5)
9 Invisible Fist
STATS
STR 20 (15 start, 3 stat gains, +2 enhance)
DEX 10 (8 start, +2 enhance)
CON 15 (13 start, +2 enhance)
INT 14
WIS 16 (14 start, +2 enhance)
CHR 8
FEATS
1 Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus)
1 Improved Initiative (Human Bonus)
1 Setting Sun Stance: Step of the Wind
Note: at level 1, weapon focus-unarmed strike is taken and later retrained to the setting sun stance when the item of mighty throw and necessary initiator level is obtained
(note: when using flaws, take shaky for the maneuver; and vulnerable for the feats ability focus /stunning fist and pharao’s fist)
2 Combat Reflexes (Monk Bonus)
3 Knowledge Devotion (add knowledge - local)
6 Improved Trip (Monk Bonus)
6 Item Familiar (and Alertness via familiar)
9 Snap Kick
12 Rapid Stunning
SKILLS (105 total; Knowledge- Local and Knowledge-Planes added to class skills)
Spot (15 ranks), Listen (15 ranks), Move Silently (10 ranks), Hide (10 ranks), Diplomacy (15 ranks), Sense Motive (5 ranks), Knowledge-local (5 ranks), Knowledge-religion (5 ranks), Knowledge-planes (5 ranks), Knowledge-arcana (5 ranks), Tumble (9 ranks)
Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories, Clarity of Vision, Nimble Stand
MW items for all trained, plus: Jump, UMD, Knowledge-Dungeoneering, Knowledge-Nature, Healing
Item Familiar for levels 7-12: 6 ranks are put into item familiar (except only 3 at lvl 9 when clarity of vision skill trick is learned). Yielding a total extra +11 bonus to spot checks (total +33 spot).
ITEMS (87,580 out of 88,000)
Head: Scout's Headband (3,400)
Face: Third Eye Improvisation (1,000)
Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000)
Throat: “Ancient Master Amulet” (my own fluff name) an Item Familiar* (31,105)
Body: Ghost Shroud (5,000)
Torso: Winged Vest, +1 nat. AC (14,000)
Arms: Greatreach bracers, +2 STR (6.000)
Hands: Ki Straps, +2 DEX (9,000)
Finger 1: Fanged Ring (10,000)
Finger 2: Ring of Sustenance (2,500)
Waist: Healing Belt (750)
Feet: Novice Setting Sun Slippers of Mighty Throw (3,000)
Held in Hands: Spiked chain (held in hands) (25)
Mundane equipment on body: MW tools (16) (800)
*Item Familiar (divide cost/2; XP cost: 2,488)
INT 10, WIS 12, CHR 10; lawful good. Ego Score: 4
With +1 spot/listen/sense motive/healing can help its master via aid another
GMW 1/day level 12 (12,960)
+2 WIS (4,000)
+2 CON (4,000)
Necklace of Nat. Attack +1, Setting Sun Discipline Weapon (12,900, x1.5 cost)
Added special ability: +1 equivalent enhancement/Warning
Torc of the Titans (4,950, x1.5 cost)
Enlarge 5/Day, lvl 1 (2,700, x1.5 cost)
Necklace of Adaptation (13,500, x1.5 cost)
Heartseeking Amulet (4,500, x1.5 cost)
Mage Armour 5/day, lvl 1 (2,700, x1.5 cost)
KEY COMBAT STATISTICS:
ATTACK BONUS: +21/+16 (9 BAB, +5 STR, +1 enhance, +3 martial discipline weapon, +3 insight)
Can be boosted by +2 blink/invisibility, +2 in difficult terrain, +4 tripped foe, +2 charge/flanking due to superior movement skills. Deduct -2 when snap kick is used.
3/day touch attack possible via heartseeking amulet effect.
TRIP Modifier: +9 (+5 STR, +4 improved trip).
Can be boosted by +4 (in difficult terrain/step of the wind stance), +4 mighty throw maneuver, +5 enlarge, +5 torc of the titans effect, for a total of +27 (exceeding, for instance, by 5 points the trip modifiers of a storm giant or by 4 that of a CR 15 adult red dragon).
STUNNING FIST DC: 21 (6 level, 3 WIS, 2 ki straps), 23 when attacking with decisive strike.
DAMAGE/hit: 8d6+9 (STR +5, enhance +1, insight +3, 2d6 base enhanced to colossal 8d6 damage by improved natural attack/fanged ring and greater mighty wallop). When attacking with decisive strike, this amount doubles to 16d6+12.
This can be enhanced with enlarge to 12d6+10 (24d6+20 with decisive strike). And, of course, with torc of the titans effect occasionally by another +5 damage (+10 with decisive strike).
AC: 17 (+3 WIS, +2 monk, +1 deflection, +1 natural); 16 touch AC, 17 flat-footed.
Can be boosted by +4 (mage armour buff), +3 (fighting defensively) and +4 (vs tripped foe).
SAVES: +12 Fort/+9 Refl +11 will
INITIATIVE: +9 (feat, warning)
HIT POINTS: 77 (12d8, max 1st level, CON bonus)
Note that the monk can heal without AoO 24 hp/day, effectively raising the hp total tolerable over the day to 101.
MOVE: 70ft (land, up to 60ft vertically), 100ft (flying, good), 15ft (swimming as a move action)
REACH: 5ft (unarmed)/10ft (spiked chain), can be expanded to 15ft/20ft via greatreach bracers, or 10ft/20ft with enlarge, or even 20ft/30ft via enlarge AND greatreach bracers
[/spoiler]
and then assess whether it will be able to do the following:
- This monk, contrary to the zombie/skeletal armies actually has a chance to surprise the dragon and not the other way round. Also, knowledge arcane can provide some info on this creature to plan ahead. The dragon’s spot/listen of +24 will beat the monk’s hide/move silently of +12 each at a distance of 120 ft. However, the monk can use invisibility for a round to get closer. It’s a close call. Definitely the monk’s +33 spot will help him see the dragon hiding at +16 before the other way round, though.
- What a surprise round in the monk’s favour can mean might be explained by the following sequence: Monk notices dragon hiding from about 120ft away. Activates flying item with swift action, partial charges vs dragon (drawing likely no AoO with tumble +11, or use invisibility ACF in case dragon can be reached on the ground) and with the help of snap kick will do two attacks at +21 each, also each with a stun. Let us assume one attack misses (in case his touch attacks for the day are used up already). The damage will be 8d6+9=37. The stun DC is 21, so 15% only risk for the dragon to fail – so, let us assume he makes the stun save.
- Initiative is rolled. Advantage monk here. If he loses initiative (unlikely), an immediate action blink ACF comes up, halving the effectiveness of all dragon close range attacks (and frustrating efforts to keep grappled the monk somehow). Monk will likely survive this onslaught, even with his too low AC in this case. Then proceed to the same scenario that happens in case he wins the initiative (with immediate action blink if necessary): again two +21 attacks with snap kick, decisive strike ACF and blink. This time it should be assumed both hit for each 16d6+18 damage each, plus stuns at DC 23 each on top. This means 148 damage (total now 185) plus two more DC 15 fortitude saves for massive damage. Even at +17 fortitude save bonus, the probability to avoid failing all four of these saves is around 50%. If the dragon lost initiative, it can try its first full attack (with around 37ish damage vs the blinking monk on average), or if it won initiative try its luck (possibly killing the monk) or burrow away (possibly drawing an AoO that could be its end).
- It is worse for the dragon, though, when the monk plays it smart and uses the surprise round to enlarge himself and activates torc of the titans, revealing himself to the dragon. If the dragon wins initiative (again, unlikely) it might use its breath weapon (blink as an immediate action to halve damage) or charge. Charge can be met spiked chain AoO (trip +19 vs dragon’s +20). Dragon likely gets through (monk could drop chain in reverse trip attempt) and takes a bite. After that, monk uses mighty throw maneuver and gets +23 trip vs the dragon’s +20. Likely win. Dragon tripped, monk gets +25 for attack, decisive strikes will now do 24d6+28 with torc active. Two such hits for a total of 224 damage nearly end the dragon. Again, stuns are delivered with the massive damage rolls. And the dragon needs to get up first to escape. I do not see the dragon winning from here. If it avoids close combat, the monk can charge up to 200ft with his flying item. Probably enough in the cave.
- Now…while this shows that the monk can take on this dragon by himself, what about his usefulness to the group? Well, the ability to almost one-shot this dragon (most other CR 12 creatures he CAN one-shot) is certainly useful to a party. Furthermore, he makes a decent scout, despite his average DEX. Also, when tripping and stunning a foe, combined with good movement for flanking he can provide a total of +8 to attack for his fellow party members – exceeding everything the adept can offer (barring maybe polymorph –and it can be used as often as it is successful per day, with stuns 12/day). This does not include the great boons for a party his stuns and trips mean (basically, stun result in a whole round of added actions for everyone while the foe cannot do anything/drops his held items, while trip robs opponents of full attack options). He can dimension door himself and up to two more fragile/troubled party members to safety. He can offer advice on combating creatures (due to his knowledge skills), and act as a fairly sociable person (diplomacy 15 ranks), certainly help the party face (if he is not the party face himself) with aid another. He needs no food and no air. Heck, he is immune to poison and could – even as a good character – add some cheap paralyzing poison on his fists and, with a snap kick attack, do non-lethal damage, 2 stuns and 2 poison attacks to capture a foe alive.
Now, Shinzen, have a look at my comments on the two adept builds above.
The monk imo is clearly better. Note also that it tries to focus on three classic monk fortes – damage, stun and trip. A monk focusing on less may even more deadly/powerful in those aspects.
Please let me know what you think.
- Giacomo
PS: I think the anklets are swift action only...ah and JaronK has made a comment on my post. Will read that through (But likely go to bed now...)
*psst, Shinzen, Huge size only grants +8 on those checks, not +12*
The Imp is the one that's there for stealth (staying outside of the range of Blindsense like any decent scout would). He's the one who makes sure they don't get surprised (if he can).
But note that at no point does the adept give any spoken commands in the lair.
He gave two standing order commands long ago (likely days ago): attack anything that attacks the party or that the party attacks, and when not doing that stay within 30' of me. That's it.
Plus, remember that the Adept can use Necrotic Cysts to command various other folks, so there's actually quite a number of dominated individuals walking around with him that work for him and yet look like they're operating normally. Also note that the adept is wearing the exact same sort of armor as the minions... if anything, he looks like a random minion, while whatever people he's dominated are likely to look like the primary targets. One of them might get taken down in the surprise round (but with only one attack, I doubt that).
If the dragon does what you said, then it charges in and attacks one person, then all the minions attack at once while it gets webbed. Game over.
Scorching Ray does more than 60ish damage when maximized. But again, the dragon charged and attack who it thought was the leader, and the adept doesn't look like a leader. So then it got jumped and killed. Also, note that with a caster level of 13, that SR 20 only helps about 1/3 of the time.
Why do I have to give commands other than standing orders to the zombies? They're only there to attack things I attack or that attack me. So why give any other order? Any dominated minions I may have found are going to be free willed (relatively) so I don't have to give them orders other than "treat me as you would a party mate while we go adventuring."
Web stays a while, and I can cast more of them. It's going to add up. Not that it matters, because you just said he'd charge in and attack, so he gets swarm killed.
It says you can craft stuff at half price before the game starts. I'm not sure what's so hard for you to understand about this... it's explicit. But you're right, it's unbalancingly powerful to do this... and the Adept can do it (as can almost all casters). Surprise surprise, more powerful classes are more powerful.
Ah, but the DMG doesn't have a specific "also, it's cool to make extra money." It does have "it's cool to make magic items at discounted cost." So, let's just go by what the rules say, okay? As for Item Familiar, that's just one item... and I didn't use it because I was trying to make a very average optimization adept.
I did reflect the cost in the armour, the hydra armor costs 4X as much. If I made a mistake there, it might be a touch more, but I have a good bit left over so who cares?
But yes, you can craft items and it makes stuff cheaper. You make a good point though... to catch up with perfectly intended use of Adept abilities, a Monk would have to optimize more by taking power feats like Item Familiar. That's because a Monk is a less powerful and versatile class.
Familiars are a class feature of adepts. Leadership is not a class feature of Monks, nor is it even related to one. Leadership, again, is a super powered feat, while Improved Familiar is rarely taken because it's not a huge deal. Again, for a Monk to catch up, you must optimize far more heavily. You're proving the point over and over. And Improved Familiar is perfectly allowed in CW... all the various possible Improved Familiars (found in a number of books, actually) are available.
Improved Familiar does not require Arcane Caster Level in the requirements. And the Imp doesn't have a shape list in the DMG... it says two forms up to medium size, then gives a few examples. That's not an exhaustive list. By RAW, anything up to medium size would work (like Dwarf Ancestors) but I bet they meant just animals. But it doesn't really matter, as I haven't been using the shapes at all. If I have to, I'm fine with sticking with Spider and Raven.
I said I'd use it to get minions. In other words, if we defeat an enemy at some point in the past without killing him, I'll give him a tumor (if possible) and then dominate him. I'm not using it on the dragon unless we luck out and happen to drop him to negative HP without killing him (in which case I might give it a shot).
I said standing order to heal only if it was safe to do so, otherwise stay hidden and out of sight. So no, it's not running out there while the dragon is breathing (but it might run out there after the dragon does so, since it's got 1d4 rounds of safety, or when the dragon is being gang jumped by minions).
Oh, I forgot to do the Black Sand bit. One casting of this second level spell gives all my undead permanent 1d6 Fast Healing. Either way, the Dragon can't do enough damage with those 7d6 shots to even threaten the zombies, so who cares?
Now you're just being dense. The Carnexes only run out when it's good to do so... not when it's not. If the dragon gets grappled, great, they can run around healing. They're not running into the thick of combat. Note also they get the usual +4 Dex and Str, and +4 HP/HD, like all of my undead. So, they're more survivable than you might think. And no, there's no rule saying you have to push the animals to keep them near. You just train the stupid things (at most it takes a trick).
See, this is why people wonder if you're trolling. You assume the Carnexes would be around debuffing the living guys instead of being kept clear of them for some reason. I can't imagine what that reason is... they stay with the zombies, the living guys who are dominated just don't get that close to them. And they don't move that slow, because the Zombies are all moving with a 40' move speed tirelessly. If anything, they move FASTER than the living because they just don't stop and continue at a fast walking pace.
He's also making them magic items when needed, providing divination support for that party, scouting, buffing, and absolutely rocking out... and he doesn't penalize the party at all, because he's not stupid enough to position the Carnexes wrong. God, this is like me criticizing you on the grounds that Flurry of Blows sucks because you're going to attack your own party with it. Of course you won't, so why assume I'd do that to mine?
So, let's see your Monk, which I assume you're incapable of making at this point. Remember, you have to keep up with your boasts. Let's see what that's going to require:
1) He must be more survivable than the zombies, because you said the zombies would die all the time due to being too fragile, and obviously that means a Monk who's not more survivable is going to die all the time.
2) He must be more productive to the party than this Adept, because you think this Adept damages group performance. That means he'll need to provide long term benefits (equivalent to or better than providing Wonderous Items for the party in addition to armor crafting), healing support (cures for living people, Carnex healing for undead), diplomatic abilities (the Imp), scouting abilities (the Imp), or similar stuff, only better, because we wouldn't want the Monk to be a drain on the party.
3) He's got to contribute effectively for a party against a Mature Adult White Dragon
4) And see if you can do it without pumping optimization well beyond what these Adepts have been doing. Though you've already admitted you'd need stuff like Cohorts (I assume from Leadership?) and Item Familiar just to keep up, so you clearly know you're going to optimize like crazy to accomplish any of this.
Good luck!
@Shinzen: That seems like a fair analysis. The Adept would be in real trouble if grappled instantly... he very intentionally looks much like just another minion to avoid getting instant jumped like that. I should probably give him a pair of daggers, just so he looks like a kinda crappy Rogue and thus isn't targetted as quickly. And yeah, I think the Hydras would just be a distraction from the main danger of Scorching Ray death, though I could order them to grapple if suddenly the opportunity arose (of course, I'm not giving that order unless they can successfully do so... no sense showing I'm the minion master early!).
JaronK
But apart from that…
- The item familiar can be any item. Check out the SRD.
- There is no way to weasel your way out of this saying “but the monk is more heavily optimized”. This is patently ridiculous. The amount of optimizing in the animated undead (which still suck kinda) is of similar extent as my use of monk ACFs (of levels 1-9 only even!). Please.
- Also, see above what I have to see on item familiar and item creation comparison. They have the same effect, they should be treated the same.
- And if you still have no clue what the monk makes so much more durable and better than a non-intelligent automaton with single actions and no miss chances nor special maneuvers nor anything to survive at high levels, I cannot help you.
But apart from that…
- The item familiar can be any item. Check out the SRD.
- There is no way to weasel your way out of this saying “but the monk is more heavily optimized”. This is patently ridiculous. The amount of optimizing in the animated undead (which still suck kinda) is of similar extent as my use of monk ACFs (of levels 1-9 only even!). Please.
- Also, see above what I have to see on item familiar and item creation comparison. They have the same effect, they should be treated the same.
- And if you still have no clue what the monk makes so much more durable and better than a non-intelligent automaton with single actions and no miss chances nor special maneuvers nor anything to survive at high levels, I cannot help you.
1) It can be any item, but some of the abilities you can add to it have prerequisites. You seemingly just tried to ignore that
2) They're not saying that the monk is winning because it is heavily optimized. They are arguing that the monk is losing, in spite of being more optimized.
3) They do not have the same effect. See the quote I provided earlier, where it says that you still have to pay for it.
4) The zombies have higher AC and hit points. They also have damage reduction. These zombies would lose alone against the dragon, but the point is not if the animate dead spell can defeat it, but if the adept, including said castings of animate dead can. Given that the zombies have a fair impact on the tactics of the dragon (it probably the loses the option of going within reach of the adept and full-attacking him), it might happen.
Alright. Lets's take a look here:
On Sneaking and Surprise: You do not have the Darkstalker feat. The dragon has Blindsense. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense) You cannot sneak up on it under any circumstances once you enter the radius of it's Blindsense, so you have no chance of surprising it. You do still get the 50% miss chance if you are invisible. I do agree the dragon cannot and would not bother to hide from you.
On Initiative: As I mentioned in the previous post, the dragon has Nerveskitter, this is a first level spell which grants +5 to Initiative. As it has 7 or 8 feats which can't really help it much (Beyond the obvious Multiattack, Flyby Attack, Power Attack, Recover Breath and Entangling Exhalation or other metabreath) it could take improved init as well to make it's modifier +9.
On Tactics: Your Reflex save starts off at +11. The basic DC for the Dragon's breath weapon is 25, giving you a 13/20 or 65% chance to fail. Because you gave up your Evasion, you are always going to take some damage, so even if you pass you take half damage and are Entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) from it's Entangling Exhalation feat for the next 1d4 rounds, and it recharges it's breath in 1d4-1 rounds. With the -4 Dex from entangled, your Reflex and AC both drop by 2, as do your attack rolls, and your movement speed is cut in half.
At this point the Dragon can merely keep flying 250 feet up, fly down within 50 feet of the ground, breathe, and fly back up every time it can breathe until you die.
You don't seem to have any ranged or flying options that can reach it at 250ft.
Alternatively, he can Grapple you at +39 to which your bonus while enlarged is, assuming use of the Torc, +24.
Also for his trip, He has a +8 from Str,+12 from size, +8 from size and +4 from having more than 2 legs (as described in Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) so 20 yes, but why in the hell would he ever be walking? He's a dragon in an open cave, you can't trip something that is flying, and with Flyby Attack he never needs to touch the ground. He can hover 15 feet up and still hit you with every attack.
In one full round attack, either of you is going to be doing an enormous amount of damage to the other. Your damage is superior, but he has significantly more attacks, is much more resilient, and finds it much easier to hit you. A Huge dragon's attack action with multiattack is: Bite/2 Claws/2 Wings/Tailslap, +27/+25/+25/+25/+25/+25. Let's Power Attack for 9, hitting you on everything but a 1 for a total of 2d8+17, 2(2d6+13), 2(1d8+13), 2d6+21. 4d8+4d6+90, which almost double (avg. 124) kills you in one full attack action, so you likely die even with your 50% miss chance. There is a reason people don't like going toe to toe with dragons.
On Party Assistance: Everything you mentioned: Stunning Opponents, teleporting allies, sneaking, battlefield control, and Diplomacy can be done equally or better by the Adept using his skills or the proper spells which exist on his spell list.
His stuns and possible use of poison is a good idea, but can only target one saving throw (Fortitude) which is the strongest save on all monsters on average after CR 8. The Adept can target Reflex (Web for example) Fort and Will, thereby selecting the opponent's weakest save to strike, giving him more tactical options. You have very little to counter a flying opponent with ranged attacks.
It is entirely possible that you could kill this dragon in single combat. However, not nearly as easily as JaronK's adept can (2 touch attacks against AC 8), and it would require much more on you getting lucky with a few significantly important dice rolls / being in an area tailored to support you and not the dragon.
- And if you still have no clue what the monk makes so much more durable and better than a non-intelligent automaton with single actions and no miss chances nor special maneuvers nor anything to survive at high levels, I cannot help you.
And it's one feature that costs very little. Use the spell one day (with a few hundred gp in gems) and keep the benefits until they are killed.And if you still have no clue what the monk makes so much more durable and better than a non-intelligent automaton with single actions and no miss chances nor special maneuvers nor anything to survive at high levels, I cannot help you.
One feature of the adept vs. the entire monk class. That monk has no answer to the tactics laid out for the dragon. The adept does. I'll show this thread to any of my players who are inexperienced enough to want to play a monk, and tell them to have another character sheet ready.
1) It can be any item, but some of the abilities you can add to it have prerequisites. You seemingly just tried to ignore that
2) They're not saying that the monk is winning because it is heavily optimized. They are arguing that the monk is losing, in spite of being more optimized.
3) They do not have the same effect. See the quote I provided earlier, where it says that you still have to pay for it.
4) The zombies have higher AC and hit points. They also have damage reduction. These zombies would lose alone against the dragon, but the point is not if the animate dead spell can defeat it, but if the adept, including said castings of animate dead can. Given that the zombies have a fair impact on the tactics of the dragon (it probably the loses the option of going within reach of the adept and full-attacking him), it might happen.
This thread lowers your IQ by 1 point for every page that you read.You should remember that the next time I make an ass of my self. :)
Even without blink, the monk could dimension door out of the web, and then at a 200ft charge rain do his snap kick/double stun shtick. Or he readies a partial charge when the dragon gets near to breath, exchange double snap kick attack for one breath weapon. Dragon does not win this exchange.
Also, where are you getting a +9 Initiative? You have 4 from Improved and no Dex.The Warning enhancement. Unfortunately, since the item familiar in question isn't a weapon, it can't have that enhancement applied to it. It can't have any enhancement attached to it, in fact, since it's an amulet and not a weapon, piece of armor, or shield. So the monk's initiative bonus is only +4.
Also, where are you getting a +9 Initiative? You have 4 from Improved and no Dex.The Warning enhancement. Unfortunately, since the item familiar in question isn't a weapon, it can't have that enhancement applied to it. It can't have any enhancement attached to it, in fact, since it's an amulet and not a weapon, piece of armor, or shield. So the monk's initiative bonus is only +4.
Ah, I see. Warning is specifically weapon only, as are most of the weapon enhancements for a flat money cost (I would not allow Everbright on that thing to give you acid immunity for that little) but an Amulet of Natural Attacks can be given enhancement bonuses to attack and weapon special abilities that replace +1's.Hmm. True. I'd still argue that you can't apply the Warning enhancement from the item familiar ability, though, since the necklace is a wondrous item.
Ah, I see. Warning is specifically weapon only, as are most of the weapon enhancements for a flat money cost (I would not allow Everbright on that thing to give you acid immunity for that little) but an Amulet of Natural Attacks can be given enhancement bonuses to attack and weapon special abilities that replace +1's.Hmm. True. I'd still argue that you can't apply the Warning enhancement from the item familiar ability, though, since the necklace is a wondrous item.
Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.
Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.
If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.
8 Con and the Toughness anti-feat.Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.
If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.
Quick, go find someone who can drag a Commoner down two tiers!
There's also the flaw and the trait which reduce your hp by one such that you can get 0 hp at every level, which means if you perform ANY action that requires effort you fall unconscious and begin dying.8 Con and the Toughness anti-feat.Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.
If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.
Quick, go find someone who can drag a Commoner down two tiers!
Best comment in this thread so far.Well the monk supporter is so blind to the monk's faults, and the monk build is trying soooo hard to be something it's not, that he's probably losing an effective tier just for being set up poorly.This is about it. If you optimize hard enough, you can pull a class one or two tiers higher.
If you're horrible at optimizing, you can drag a class down to two tiers lower.
That doesn't mean Giacomo is any less wrong.Nope, it doesn't at all.
I think the problem was that hes trying to make the monk something hes not. The monk is primarily a combat class, so you optimize the combat. Optimizing skills and emulating spells doesn't do much more than make you mediocre at those areas compared to a skill focused class or a caster class, AND also makes you weak at your core strength.That doesn't mean Giacomo is any less wrong.Nope, it doesn't at all.
Actually, if you think about it, I just burned the crap out of him. My first ever mid level Monk was posted a dozen pages ago and could possibly do what his can't. He is the defacto Monk supporter in these boards and had my build and several others to take ideas from. He should be kicking KKK dragon ass and thus have at least some form of point, like at least I could avoid a painful death, to argue with.
But yeah, anyway. Optimization goes a long way into making anything useful.
I do have to wonder why we have to fight this dragon. Shouldn't it be a random set of CR 12 types, as opposed to an encounter specifically designed to counter the zombie hydras?But that wouldn't be fair.
Obviously. Anything that doesn't clearly put the adept at a disadvantage is clearly unfair.I do have to wonder why we have to fight this dragon. Shouldn't it be a random set of CR 12 types, as opposed to an encounter specifically designed to counter the zombie hydras?But that wouldn't be fair.
Actually, for more fun, anyone wants to try out the PF Qinggong monk in the same fight?Give him rocket fists and we'll talk.
It'd be fun!
Unless the DM has two brain cells to rub togheter and throws something you can't animate for a change. Since everybody knows vanilla dragons inside and out so they really aren't a challenge unless seriously tweaked. If the adept is geting all those splatbooks, only fair the monsters also get some optimization love.Ozzy, what chance does Giacomo's monk stand against your model of dragon?
Bone template for example can be applied to pretty much every living being, whitout any CR increase or loss of significant abilities.
Of course, people will now cry "Ack, what kind of horrible DM would throw you an ecounter you can't just curbstomp and that you can't exploit for extra profit?".
Unless the DM has two brain cells to rub togheter and throws something you can't animate for a change. Since everybody knows vanilla dragons inside and out so they really aren't a challenge unless seriously tweaked. If the adept is geting all those splatbooks, only fair the monsters also get some optimization love.
Bone template for example can be applied to pretty much every living being, whitout any CR increase or loss of significant abilities.
Of course, people will now cry "Ack, what kind of horrible DM would throw you an ecounter you can't just curbstomp and that you can't exploit for extra profit?".
The monk is going to auto-lose the grapple, basically, because high-strength, huge enemy with obnoxious BAB. Do monks have abundant step yet? If so, the monk can escape by wasting its turn, then get Snatched again. If not, it can rely on magic items that grant short-range teleportation that the Adept already has in addition to its other tactics.Blink lets you physically move though walls (and yes other creatures) and a FAQ ruling even gives it a 50% chance to avoid being grappled by the auto-start-a-grapple Black Tentacles. So if a certain someone was smart enough to nab the Blink ACF, Grapple shouldn't be auto win.
One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.
In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.
Giacomo used... well, what all books did he use anyway? There were a ton in ACFs alone.
JaronK
If you're arguing his monk is notably unpowerful, I'm not sure how him using a lot of ACFs proves anything about the monk's core skeleton.
If you're arguing his monk is notably unpowerful, I'm not sure how him using a lot of ACFs proves anything about the monk's core skeleton.Hi Welcome.
If anything, then he "proved" that the core Monk skeleton is really underpowered.More fail.
I used Libris MortisThis isn't a Core-Only concept to begin with.
Stop trying to contribute SorO.If you're arguing his monk is notably unpowerful, I'm not sure how him using a lot of ACFs proves anything about the monk's core skeleton.Hi Welcome.If anything, then he "proved" that the core Monk skeleton is really underpowered.More fail.I used Libris MortisThis isn't a Core-Only concept to begin with.
Jaronk's comment about using less books (guess what, it always will since items/feats are the only noncore thing an adapt can have) is being taken way out of parturition.
... of course, that is a very odd thing to be taken way out of.Or you could just turn the babies into wights and laugh maniacally as they gnaw their way out and proceed to plague the living.
Though quite frankly I *would* like to keep the animated dead as far away from childbirth as possible. Even if you reign undead them to have profession (midwife), thank you.
What is a Qinggong Monk?The idea is you take this ACF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) with this ACF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/drunken-master) and this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fast-drinker) on top of this chassis. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk)
This isn't a Core-Only concept to begin with.The debate here isn't about core versus non-core. The debate is about the degree to which each build relies on material beyond its initial printing.
Jaronk's comment about using less books (guess what, it always will since items/feats are the only noncore thing an adapt can have) is being taken way out of parturition.
To illustrate how much the expert uses his class abilities you say it is way less item-dependent than the monk, but the whole point is not about magic item dependence, but how much additional stuff (mundane items, rituals, magic buffs and magic items) in total you need to perform.
Granted, if we take the class and available material as a whole, the amount of sourcebooks used is meaningless. However, I'd invite everyone to consider a quote from Giacomo himself:To illustrate how much the expert uses his class abilities you say it is way less item-dependent than the monk, but the whole point is not about magic item dependence, but how much additional stuff (mundane items, rituals, magic buffs and magic items) in total you need to perform.
In terms of "additional stuff," the monk uses quite a bit more than the adept, and there's still some debate as to whether the monk can perform as advertised.
That, and the sheer amount of effort it takes to optimize into usefulness. The adept hardly requires any (just a feat or three), whereas the monk? Yeeeah...This isn't a Core-Only concept to begin with.The debate here isn't about core versus non-core. The debate is about the degree to which each build relies on material beyond its initial printing.
Jaronk's comment about using less books (guess what, it always will since items/feats are the only noncore thing an adapt can have) is being taken way out of parturition.
They already did that in Twilight.... of course, that is a very odd thing to be taken way out of.Or you could just turn the babies into wights and laugh maniacally as they gnaw their way out and proceed to plague the living.
Though quite frankly I *would* like to keep the animated dead as far away from childbirth as possible. Even if you reign undead them to have profession (midwife), thank you.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
They already did that in Twilight.... of course, that is a very odd thing to be taken way out of.Or you could just turn the babies into wights and laugh maniacally as they gnaw their way out and proceed to plague the living.
Though quite frankly I *would* like to keep the animated dead as far away from childbirth as possible. Even if you reign undead them to have profession (midwife), thank you.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
Oh, right. You aren't.I learned from posts like yours.
... of course, that is a very odd thing to be taken way out of.While Firefox has successfully implemented a spell checker, it has not came up with an idiot checker.
Though quite frankly I *would* like to keep the animated dead as far away from childbirth as possible. Even if you reign undead them to have profession (midwife), thank you.
The debate here isn't about core versus non-core. The debate is about the degree to which each build relies on material beyond its initial printing.And what value does that have? Does your entire group lack books and you're using... Well hell the SRD is six or more books. Idk, a PHB and candles? Where are you really going with this? WotC's online releases is enough to make another ten or twelve publishes books of content. Hell my phone has more jpged rules then we have collectively posted here and with them, book count has never been an issue with any DM I've ever played under. In short, book limit is nothing more than a limitation of rules the DM has access to, which you as the guy with all the rules for your character, can provide. And if your DM is blanket banning entire lists of books you wanted to use, it's called karma for your behavior here.
See, the rest of us wouldn't know as we didn't read or watch it.
And what value does that have? Does your entire group lack books and you're using... Well hell the SRD is six or more books. Idk, a PHB and candles? Where are you really going with this? WotC's online releases is enough to make another ten or twelve publishes books of content. Hell my phone has more jpged rules then we have collectively posted here and with them, book count has never been an issue with any DM I've ever played under. In short, book limit is nothing more than a limitation of rules the DM has access to, which you as the guy with all the rules for your character, can provide. And if your DM is blanket banning entire lists of books you wanted to use, it's called karma for your behavior here.Let me put it this way. If I made a commoner build using seven different splatbooks that managed to kick the ass of a CR 12 dragon, that would not prove the supremacy of the commoner. That would prove the supremacy of the various options pulled from those books. Likewise, a monk build which relies heavily on magic items, feats, skill tricks, and the like from a wide variety of books does nothing to prove or disprove the hypothesis that the monk is worse than the adept. It only proves that this particular monk needs a wider variety of books to be effective, and the degree to which it is effective is still debated.
The extent of my involvement in that disaster is watching the first movie. I heard about the undead-baby-ripping-itself-out-of-the-womb bit from a friend who read all the books.They already did that in Twilight.... of course, that is a very odd thing to be taken way out of.Or you could just turn the babies into wights and laugh maniacally as they gnaw their way out and proceed to plague the living.
Though quite frankly I *would* like to keep the animated dead as far away from childbirth as possible. Even if you reign undead them to have profession (midwife), thank you.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
See, the rest of us wouldn't know as we didn't read or watch it. Except maybe the first book. I try to forget but it's still in my nightmares.
For shame. :pout
The extent of my involvement in that disaster is watching the first movie. I heard about the undead-baby-ripping-itself-out-of-the-womb bit from a friend who read all the books.They already did that in Twilight.... of course, that is a very odd thing to be taken way out of.Or you could just turn the babies into wights and laugh maniacally as they gnaw their way out and proceed to plague the living.
Though quite frankly I *would* like to keep the animated dead as far away from childbirth as possible. Even if you reign undead them to have profession (midwife), thank you.
MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
See, the rest of us wouldn't know as we didn't read or watch it. Except maybe the first book. I try to forget but it's still in my nightmares.
For shame. :pout
One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.Source?
In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.
One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.Source?
In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.
For the record, Jaronk's adept also uses MM IV for that undead that patches up undead up for free.True, although I was under the impression that the carnifex wasn't there by design but rather because that's one of the encounters he rolled.
For the record, Jaronk's adept also uses MM IV for that undead that patches up undead up for free.True, although I was under the impression that the carnifex wasn't there by design but rather because that's one of the encounters he rolled.
For the record, Jaronk's adept also uses MM IV for that undead that patches up undead up for free.And spells.One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.Source?
In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.
Actualy an interesting point I overlooked. Unlike other monsters in the MM, dragons don't have "ready to use" stat blocks. You have their base stats, but you still need to give them feats and skills, unlike other monsters that make simply horrendous feat and skill choices.
So indeed you can't throw a true dragon out of the MM at the party whitout personally selecting its feats and skill points.
True, although I was under the impression that the carnifex wasn't there by design but rather because that's one of the encounters he rolled.
book limitations are frequently the result of perceived balance issues and not availability.Like Psionics is overpowered, FR hate, At-Will disgust (tob), and Steampunk dislike?
Here's the thing. Your Adapt exists, and whatever game breaking spell to choose are accessible to anyone with UMD are points in its favor. However, Tiers have to take into account real games, besides theoretical power. This is why certain options for ACFs can move a class up or down a Tier, and why such cases typically get their own separate entry and nothing is solely based on a single build or utter dependency on followers.Pretty sure I misquoted there...
You can present any Super Spell you like, most are in core but that is no excuse to pull up some book count comments in a none-Core-only debate. The particular optimized build discussed here which uses the defacto book of undead and the defacto book on dragons to create a powerful proxy but fundamentally overlooks all inherent weaknesses of the Adapt, like the dragon have more than 4 int and just eating him, or the fact the entire undead derailment of the Adapt hinges on starting at level 8 or above. I'd say it's fairly obvious that Adapt has a strictly lesser chance of making it into any given game since a Paladin makes a better spell caster than it. That's a point against it, and while that's not enough to come to a complete conclusion about the class' overall power, it is a single piece of evidence.
When combined with the base Adapt's general inability to function, that does tend to weigh against it. Also, bear in mind; which of your pokemon of choice can your build do without? Without playing an undead loving evil character could you really make it from level 1 to level 12 to start talking about using Polymorph? There are other perspectives to consider as well. Adaptability. If your Adapt works only with that specific combination of variables, then it's an out line on the power curve. So would be an Adept evoker if it couldn't control significant undead without access to Libris Mortis or something, but it can because thats all it has. If your Adapt doesn't really need pokemon and is just using them as an optimizational edge, then you have a decent argument for saying the Adapt him self is combat ready.
Personal preference is another reason, yes, but their actual balance rarely has anything to do with their bans. How the DM believes they are balanced is the determining factor there. That's why they're called perceived balance issues.book limitations are frequently the result of perceived balance issues and not availability.Like Psionics is overpowered, FR hate, At-Will disgust (tob), and Steampunk dislike?
Balance isn't the reason they are banned, they just say it is. Just saying.
Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?I think one of the assumptions we were operating under was that the dragon had Nerveskitter. That's about the only thing I've seen, and that was in regard to the monk's initiative (can't remember or easily check what the adept did about it, if anything). That said, it does seem unfair that the third party in this competition is unstatted.
Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?
Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?Why do people not bother putting points into literacy?
Just figured I would point out that 9 headed Hydra zombies are rather unlikely to grapple this dragon. They have a +25 Grapple modifier (including Cropsecrafter bonus) and the Dragon has +37 modifier. They're more likely to succeed than the Giaccomonk, but still rather unlikely. (Who ever thought that Aid Another shouldn't apply to Grapple? I want to shoot them)Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?
Actually, I believe the guy who was playing DM for this gave him Entangling Exhalation and Nerveskitter... not sure what else. So... no, he wasn't fighting spell less or featless. It's just that he's going to have a tough time because the Adept can out shoot him in a ranged fight (Maximized or Empowered Scorching Ray vs his vulnerability, against a breath weapon that Resist Energy stops cold) but the zombies become a threat at close range (especially if they start grappling and holding him).
Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?Why do people not bother putting points into literacy?
God knows.
Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?
Actually, I believe the guy who was playing DM for this gave him Entangling Exhalation and Nerveskitter... not sure what else. So... no, he wasn't fighting spell less or featless. It's just that he's going to have a tough time because the Adept can out shoot him in a ranged fight (Maximized or Empowered Scorching Ray vs his vulnerability, against a breath weapon that Resist Energy stops cold) but the zombies become a threat at close range (especially if they start grappling and holding him).
Sorceror spellcasting unlocks the use of wands, and one spell every dragon wants is Blinding Scales, precisely to compensate for its awful touch AC. The dragon has quadruple standard treasure and all dragon splatbooks suport that dragons invest in magic items. And it plays to the dragon's strenght of puting their massive natural armor to good use.Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?
Actually, I believe the guy who was playing DM for this gave him Entangling Exhalation and Nerveskitter... not sure what else. So... no, he wasn't fighting spell less or featless. It's just that he's going to have a tough time because the Adept can out shoot him in a ranged fight (Maximized or Empowered Scorching Ray vs his vulnerability, against a breath weapon that Resist Energy stops cold) but the zombies become a threat at close range (especially if they start grappling and holding him).
Speaking of defences, how are you countering the dragon's SR again? I remember the question rised somewhere, but didn't catch the solution to that.
And as just said the dragon easily outgrapples even your top zombies.
For once I'm going to agree with you. I know I posted a few blocks of text, but I assumed by now people would have at least skimmed them.
I was literally building the dragon to the best of my ability specifically to be able to counter PCs. Entangling Exhalation and Fly-By attack prevent any ground based opponent from doing much, Power Attack combined with a 21 BAB can account for a hell of a lot of damage, and Nerveskitter and Silent Image are really the only decent first level spells worth taking. Actually, JaronK, does your build have any flight? Because the Dragon could take Enlarge Breath or Shape Breath and get a 70 foot line that would outrange your ray.
If I had money to spend on magic items for the dragon, both would lose easily. Ghost Touch natural attacks and Fire resistance. But, alas, that would be cheating.
I have to say a properly equipped dragon, compared to one using the treasure as a nice comfy bed, is likely at least several CR higher than their already understated CR, and would kick the ass of any party that's not largely optimized T1-T2.
I have to say a properly equipped dragon, compared to one using the treasure as a nice comfy bed, is likely at least several CR higher than their already understated CR, and would kick the ass of any party that's not largely optimized T1-T2.
Eh, likely going down fast and hard against a level 12 Factotum. Darkstalker and Int to stealth skills on an Int and Dex class means he'll never see the guy coming, and being able to land Shivering Touch while ignoring SR and adding Int to the Dex damage means the dragon just falls over paralyzed before he knows what's happening. In that situation, pre buffing won't help because the Factotum can completely surprise the dragon whenever he wants and thus control the fight. Plus, he can use Cunning Surge to cast Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch in one round, thus allowing him to surprise attack from longer range (important with stealth). Of course, this doesn't work on White Dragons, but it works on most of the rest of them.
But that's just because Factotums are nicely set up against Dragons.
JaronK
And even in the case of JaronK's dragon designer cave (a good idea, without irony :D)
the monk can buff before entering the cave (blink, invisibility, enlarge), enter it and due to combat reflexes can try to trip the dragon attacking him (spiked chain has 20ft reach) even when being flat-footed.
Will wonders never cease? I got a mobile internet connection... :)
Opportunity to help clarify some misperceptions.
People wondered (even though I think I already explained it several times) how my monk build can sneak up on the dragon.
Again: the monk can charge in the surprise round (partial charge) due to his high movement from outside the dragon's 60ft blindsense range. Beyond that range, the monk has either invisibility up or fairly good hide skill. His +33 spot skill makes him spotting even the hidden dragon quite likely.
And even in the case of JaronK's dragon designer cave (a good idea, without irony :D) the monk can buff before entering the cave (blink, invisibility, enlarge), enter it and due to combat reflexes can try to trip the dragon attacking him (spiked chain has 20ft reach) even when being flat-footed. Meanwhile, blink halves any breath weapon attack. In case of entangle breath attack, just dimension door out, try again (if it really hampers performance that much...after all in the now smaller cave even the monk's halved movement and some STR penalties would not matter that much.
Bye for now.
- Giacomo
You should read the rules before chastising people to read the rules. :D
E: You should really read the rules before trying to abuse them.: SRDFlat-Footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.
A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.
Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal
A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special
The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use her opportunist ability more than once per round.
A fighter may select Combat Reflexes as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A monk may select Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat at 2nd level.
You should read the rules before chastising people to read the rules. :D
E: You should really read the rules before trying to abuse them.: SRDFlat-Footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.
A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.
With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal
A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special
The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use her opportunist ability more than once per round.
A fighter may select Combat Reflexes as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A monk may select Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat at 2nd level.
Shinzen, why does your dragon not have Mage Armor?
You can trip a flying opponent, so long as he has less than perfect maneuverability and is using wings to fly.
I don't think it's a function of forward movement. It's clarified in a Rules of the Game article somewhere, and probably the Rules Compendium.
I don't think it's a function of forward movement. It's clarified in a Rules of the Game article somewhere, and probably the Rules Compendium.
Yeah, I read the rules of the game argument, and it said that it causes the flying creature to "stall", which is what happens when you do not move forward with a fly speed < perfect maneuverability. I'm not sure how that interacts with the Hover feat.
Mature Adult Whites only cast as a 3rd level Sorcerer, so they're stuck with 1st level spells. No Command Undead or Invisibility for the dragon.
If the Adept is crap without those two spells, why aren't those the spells he's using to beat this Dragon? I went with Web and Scorching Ray... Animate Dead was mostly giving me nasty stuff to distract the dragon with (and make it harder to just run in and snatch).Your saying Web + Scorching Ray because you think that does something, and as you pointed out you're dependent on Animate Dead to distract him and which in every post you remark as towards controlling a Hydra level of creature.
I mean yeah, they're really strong spells, but Web and Scorching Ray are really solid too. And the Imp is quite potent, with his stealth and social skills and divination abilities.
An adept can survive levels 1-7 with handle animal optimization, poison optimization, his decent selection of 1st and 2nd level spells, and his familiar.Sorry, I haven't played pokemon since Gold/Silver. I do think you're point of Pet/Item abuse to prove your Adapt isn't proving anything other than how useful those things that everyone (including the dragon) can and probably should have.
The Dragon's maximum effective range is shorter than the Adept's rangeHow did the Adapt get over 200ft flight in speed?
Only difference is, the strafing dragon vs. Monk results in the dragon taking no damage and the melee vs. Adept taking some (possibly significant) damage. Not to mention that the Adept can walk back and Web (since the dragon is almost assuredly in a place where he can be nabbed by it if he's in melee range).See Web comments (helps to know the spell) and (again not talking of Gia's build) the Monk can charge after DDooring as a move action via Battle Jump, possible killing it outright right then and there. Barring Battle Jump abuse, the Necropoliton/Soul Drinker combo means being ate is a great thing since you can deal two (or four with snap kick) negative levels per round. Branching from items & races, the Monk sports Evasion or Blink and probably Total Concealment meaning Breath is the only thing that can really bother the Monk, coupled with superior damage (no 50% miss chance) in combat the so call Monk sports three alternatives to fight a dragon without cowering in the corner and relying on Handle Animal (which he can use, just as he can UMD Animate Dead). The Adapt has what again? Wasted actions by the current plan of action. But I blame player skill there.
Why is the poor dragon forced to fight featless, spellless, equipmentless and skilless against the pimped up adept again?Not me. I voted for a Steel Dragon Gish. You know, a JPM/AC mix. :D
I'm not sure why Giacomo thinks the Monk's just going to sneak up on the dragon.Did he take Darkstalker?
Ok, so wait, I can invest in magic then?Yes :p
Any Gold or Red Dragon with 7th level spells who doesn't have Energy Immunity: Cold on all the time however deserves what he gets.Mantle Of The Icy Soul (10,450gp to pay someone else to cast it, Frostburn) gives you the [Cold] subtype making you immune to Shivering Touch while ditching that weakness.
I support no wealth. Not because it's the most representative of a Dragon's actual circumstances, but because I don't think you need it and because someone will always complain about it being the item's power rather than the Dragon's.To note, I'm only on board with the pokemon bashing as a counter to bitching about an ACF being too powerful and it's not the Monk (a big wtf there since it's the Monk's ACF).
A: You cannot trip a flying opponent.A. You can, it stalls them in midair (see FAQ) which can in fact make them fall (which in turn sets up moar Battle Jump abuse). Srsly, I've had Battle Jump banned from most games after I use it (not the entire book its in, the feat, see also intelligent DM) :)
How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells? The Adept can't catch up with the dragon, but the dragon can't harm the adept without putting itself within the Adept's range (and the Adept deals much more damage in a firefight between the two). Dragon's breath weapon has a 50 ft range, but a level 12 Adept has 55ft range on Short range spells. If the dragon can attack, so can the Adept.The Dragon's maximum effective range is shorter than the Adept's rangeHow did the Adapt get over 200ft flight in speed?
Dimension Door ends your turn (helps to know the spell) and Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conviniently, is not an area attack and is not targetted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning. Helps to know the spell).Only difference is, the strafing dragon vs. Monk results in the dragon taking no damage and the melee vs. Adept taking some (possibly significant) damage. Not to mention that the Adept can walk back and Web (since the dragon is almost assuredly in a place where he can be nabbed by it if he's in melee range).See Web comments (helps to know the spell) and (again not talking of Gia's build) the Monk can charge after DDooring as a move action via Battle Jump,
He's talking about the absurd reading of Battle Jump where you get a free, non-action Charge attack if you drop 10' into an enemy's space, regardless of whether it's your turn or not. I'm sure there's some kind of TO pogo stick build around somewhere that goes into more detail about that reading of the feat. A more sensible (and common) reading is that if your action is to drop down from above and attack, then your attack is treated as a charge.Dimension Door ends your turn (helps to know the spell) and Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conviniently, is not an area attack and is not targetted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning. Helps to know the spell).Only difference is, the strafing dragon vs. Monk results in the dragon taking no damage and the melee vs. Adept taking some (possibly significant) damage. Not to mention that the Adept can walk back and Web (since the dragon is almost assuredly in a place where he can be nabbed by it if he's in melee range).See Web comments (helps to know the spell) and (again not talking of Gia's build) the Monk can charge after DDooring as a move action via Battle Jump,
How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells?I think you are way off what I meant.
Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conveniently, is not an area attack and is not targeted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning. Helps to know the spell).Helps to know the spell, helps to know the spell. If you followed my advice, you wouldn't have just embarrassed your self further.
A. DDoor doesn't end your turn
Dimension Door
You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
I believe the presented Adept had ~2kgp left.How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells?I think you are way off what I meant.
All this bashing about the Monk having 1/day Door is overlooking the fact the Adapt doesn't have DDoor, or Heart of Water, or Freedom of Movement, or hell even Grease, or anything other than items he stocks up on to escape Grapple. And so if the dragon lands his Bite attack, Snatch kicks in (Jaron and Gia both were talking about it a page or two ago) and the dragon has a virtually unbeatable Grapple check. So what prime offense does the Adapt have? He shoots a ray attack from 85ft out and presumably moves away. Unless he has a Speed of 115ft+, the dragon fracking eats him. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. After chewing for a bit (auto hit bite attack) on the now grappled-thus-no-somatic-spells, the dragon spits the Adapt's corpse into one of those traps that you guys were going on about the Monk being killed by.
You are really bad at this. A and B are both 90% wrong (you even got my name wrong). C is out of context, Scorching Ray doesn't invalidate the Dragon's ability to melee (and absolutely nobody is suggesting it does), but rather it invalidates his ranged options. What's more, you're also wrong in thinking that anyone is really saying the Adept will win a 1v1 fight. The Adept has potential to win, and since he has potential to win, he will definitely contribute to the concerted efforts of a group to kill this dragon. The Monk, on the other hand, is pretty much just a melee-range beatstick, and it's not that great of one vs. the Dragon. Even a properly-built Monk likely won't hit the Dragon more than once or twice a round, and is almost guaranteed to get eviscerated by the Dragon with a single full attack.Web still holds the dragon down long enough for the Adept to easily leave melee range and fire off a Scorching Ray (which, conveniently, is not an area attack and is not targeted at the web, so the web doesn't start burning. Helps to know the spell).Helps to know the spell, helps to know the spell. If you followed my advice, you wouldn't have just embarrassed your self further.
A. DDoor doesn't end your turn and X-Codes already answered this for me. Even if you used X-Code's interpretation, Flashing Sun (or w/e)'s free attack can still be considered a charge if you do it right. Have you even clicked on The Hood link Endaire posts daily?
B. Web isn't super awesome. The dragon has a 12+Items vs DC 11 + the Adapt's WisMod (yeah, it probably needs a 2 to beat it), upon making the save the dragon can move 10ft though the Web with yet another 2 on it's check arguably freeing it. Should it fail, the lame AC bonus aside (your talking 6+dex vs 14+items and hitting 3 attacks per round), Web notes it's self as instantly burned away upon fire passing though it (like a burning ray of [Fire] damage) so your own spell frees it. Further, Web is only a 20x20 area and must be anchored by two opposing points and I'm not talking two points on the ground creates a 20ft tall area. Unless the dragon backs into a corner it can never really be hit by the Web while in flight. All these hindrances aside, the dragon may very well use Web on the Adapt while walking out of the first Web just to make the Adapt waste time (and unlike the dragon, won't be making a useful str check). In short, the sheer execution of a Standard Action for this spell is worse than anything other than pouring Salt & Pepper on you.
C. Scorching Ray doesn't have enough of a range to bring up silly points like the Adapt stays out of melee range while the Monk can't. They both remain in chew toy range. But, at least the Monk gets a 1/day get out of jail free card, which also can give him free attacks...
D. Also, spell checker. Because this post needs more puns.
Next time you want to come off with a whiny repeating return, at least follow the original advice. As I mentioned, the only real offense the Adapt has is his pokemon and if you read in between the glowing lines of pet hate and Diplomacy is better, I already mentioned shinies can be better (combat wise) than a Monk. ...Of course, tiers aren't really be based on what your pets can do, or how being super optimized such my generalist Monk at level 9 can take the dragon means a lot, even if picking the weakest dragon whose energy type is worthless against Undead is still fully capable of butt-raping the Adapt with pets. One fight isn't enough to reach any conclusion so you're doing great so far.
The dragon's bite has 15 feet reach. Anklet of translocation teleports you 10 feet. You're not geting away from its teeths.I believe the presented Adept had ~2kgp left.How did the Dragon get any form of attack that had more range than the Adept's spells?I think you are way off what I meant.
All this bashing about the Monk having 1/day Door is overlooking the fact the Adapt doesn't have DDoor, or Heart of Water, or Freedom of Movement, or hell even Grease, or anything other than items he stocks up on to escape Grapple. And so if the dragon lands his Bite attack, Snatch kicks in (Jaron and Gia both were talking about it a page or two ago) and the dragon has a virtually unbeatable Grapple check. So what prime offense does the Adapt have? He shoots a ray attack from 85ft out and presumably moves away. Unless he has a Speed of 115ft+, the dragon fracking eats him. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. After chewing for a bit (auto hit bite attack) on the now grappled-thus-no-somatic-spells, the dragon spits the Adapt's corpse into one of those traps that you guys were going on about the Monk being killed by.
Anklet of Translocation.
The dragon's bite has 15 feet reach. Anklet of translocation teleports you 10 feet. You're not geting away from its teeths.It is if you're teleporting behind a Zombie.
You aren't. With snatch and flyby attack, the dragon can pick the adept up and lift him in the air before he can activate the anklet. So you teleport in mid-air whitout any zombie to hide behind.
Not to mention you can't teleport into the space of other creatures, and it seems awfully convenient to me you surrounded yourself with-medium sized zombies and then left empty spaces all around. Actualy the last build had huge-sized hydra zombies, aka you can't anklet behind them at all (they fill 15 feet sided boxes).
1-You can't anklet 10 feet up because the huge dragon is just above you.
2-Combat jump only works with charges. Firing a scorching ray isn't a valid charge attack.Yeah, but then with reach you could hurt him hard with some weapon. The monk is better at this though.
3-Even if somehow the two points above were ignored out of pity for the Adept, he still provokes an Aoo for dropping 5 feet and is grappled again.Dropping provokes AoOs? Where does it say that?
You aren't. With snatch and flyby attack, the dragon can pick the adept up and lift him in the air before he can activate the anklet. So you teleport in mid-air whitout any zombie to hide behind.Some Zombies can fly, some skeletons have perfect flight. You could just order a skeletal genie to stay 10 ft above me at all times. And anklet up to ride him away.
It fills a 15 feet wide box. It has a long neck. It can fit the medium/small adept where it wants.1-You can't anklet 10 feet up because the huge dragon is just above you.
Erm. How can the dragon be 10 ft above you when you are snatched between his jaws? Does a huge creature have that big an upper lip?
Oh for Bahamut's sake, you're saying the adept whitout melee buffs whatsoever stands a realistic chance of hiting the dragon's AC ?2-Combat jump only works with charges. Firing a scorching ray isn't a valid charge attack.Yeah, but then with reach you could hurt him hard with some weapon. The monk is better at this though.
Teleporting whitin reach of your oponent gets you out of grapples? Where does it say that? ;)3-Even if somehow the two points above were ignored out of pity for the Adept, he still provokes an Aoo for dropping 5 feet and is grappled again.Dropping provokes AoOs? Where does it say that?
You aren't. With snatch and flyby attack, the dragon can pick the adept up and lift him in the air before he can activate the anklet. So you teleport in mid-air whitout any zombie to hide behind.Some Zombies can fly, some skeletons have perfect flight. You could just order a skeletal genie to stay 10 ft above me at all times. And anklet up to ride him away.
Some Zombies can fly, some skeletons have perfect flight. You could just order a skeletal genie to stay 10 ft above me at all times. And anklet up to ride him away.
It can't. The Adept's still under the dragon, so at best the mindless undead bumps against the dragon's back, unable to fulfill the condition.Oh for Christ's sake. Are you serious? So it doesn't know how to move around an obstacle to fulfill orders? I could understand if you said it would be too stupid to tumble/withdraw/etc to avoid attacks of opportunities, but this is just absurd. Yes, it is mindless, but it can still obey simple commands. Stay within 10 feet of me is certainly a simple command, and moving around an obvious obstacle would be well within its means of achieving that. It's not like it has to solve an algebra problem. How does that work if it is mindless? I don't know. It's magic.
All that we've realized in the last 10 pages is that Dragons played to their full potential are borderline un-killable by normal play in a sub Tier 3 party.Well yeah, didn't a designer once mention that dragons were intentionally strong for their CR?
All that we've realized in the last 10 pages is that Dragons played to their full potential are borderline un-killable by normal play in a sub Tier 3 party.Well yeah, didn't a designer once mention that dragons were intentionally strong for their CR?
That was before optimization and straight out of SRD.
It can't. The Adept's still under the dragon, so at best the mindless undead bumps against the dragon's back, unable to fulfill the condition.Oh for Christ's sake. Are you serious? So it doesn't know how to move around an obstacle to fulfill orders? I could understand if you said it would be too stupid to tumble/withdraw/etc to avoid attacks of opportunities, but this is just absurd. Yes, it is mindless, but it can still obey simple commands. Stay within 10 feet of me is certainly a simple command, and moving around an obvious obstacle would be well within its means of achieving that. It's not like it has to solve an algebra problem. How does that work if it is mindless? I don't know. It's magic.
It can't. The Adept's still under the dragon, so at best the mindless undead bumps against the dragon's back, unable to fulfill the condition.Oh for Christ's sake. Are you serious? So it doesn't know how to move around an obstacle to fulfill orders? I could understand if you said it would be too stupid to tumble/withdraw/etc to avoid attacks of opportunities, but this is just absurd. Yes, it is mindless, but it can still obey simple commands. Stay within 10 feet of me is certainly a simple command, and moving around an obvious obstacle would be well within its means of achieving that. It's not like it has to solve an algebra problem. How does that work if it is mindless? I don't know. It's magic.
Because the order was for the undead to remain 10 feet ABOVE the adept, not 10 feet near the adept. And the closest spot is still bumping against the dragon's back.
Also, it's simply unfair that the adept gets to use real-world logic instead of the rules when and only when it is convenient for him. If he can escape the grapple by teleporting, he'll also be causing aoos by being moved by gravity.
I'm reasonably sure you already provoke AoO's by gravity. I don't argue with that point.
Movement provokes Aoos unless otherwise specified. Nowhere it says it has to be voluntary movement. If you want to go uber RAW, then first find me the rule that says that the Adept teleporting whitin reach of the dragon's jaws gets him out of the grapple.
If we are not arguing Uber RAW. Off course the Adept can teleport out of the mouth of the dragon. The fact that he will teleport into mid air will probably give him problems. However, why the adept was walking around waiting to get snatched and didn't have a hydra or two to AoO within reach is beyond me. Wouldn't the best tactic be to hide inside one of the hydras and cast spells through the carcass? Or strap yourself underneath it at the very least.
The dragon has tons of skill points. He's smart enough to recognize mindless undeads when he sees them, and look out for the necromancer giving them orders. And considering half the necromancers on the land are clerics, it isn't really much of a stretch to attack the armored guy hiding in the corner instead of the mindless hydras that can't fly anyway.
When the adept starts shooting scorching rays? Then he indeed makes himself a primary target.
By all means make your zombie Aoos. What's the attack bonus of a zombie hydra again, +13? Dealing 1d10+6 whitout counting as magic?The dragon can easily shrugg them off.
Okay, so he attacks a Necrosis Carnex. Or one of the many dominated minions which probably look more like primary targets than the Adept. Then what?The dragon has both the knowledge and the spot skills to recognize a necrosis Carnex and count him out as a primary target.
Who said anything about charging? With 200 fly speed, fly-by attack to stay out ground enemies reach is the way to go. Move up to 100, snatch enemy, move another 100.When the adept starts shooting scorching rays? Then he indeed makes himself a primary target.At which point the dragon is at less than half HPs and has lost the element of surprise. Also, the Adept, not being a complete fool, can fire a ray and then get behind something. The Dragon can pursue and breath cold on him (doing nothing) but can't charge him that round, and the
second shot would be a kill shot (if his other minions don't already take the dragon out after the first attack).
By all means make your zombie Aoos. What's the attack bonus of a zombie hydra again, +13? Dealing 1d10+6 whitout counting as magic?The dragon can easily shrugg them off.
+16 (Corpsecrafter bonus, zombie bonus) for 1d10+8, 9 attacks (because they attack nine times with a single attack), from both hydras, vs AC 28.
The dragon has both the knowledge and the spot skills to recognize a necrosis Carnex and count him out as a primary target.
Where are you geting dominated minions with an adept again? He doesn't have dominate person on his spell list.
Who said anything about charging? With 200 fly speed, fly-by attack to stay out ground enemies reach is the way to go. Move up to 100, snatch enemy, move another 100.
Combined with shaped breath, the huge white dragon can snipe stuff while remaining 200 feet away.
The hydras needs Combat Reflexes to use its super Aoos. Zombies lose all feats. Thus Zombie Hydras can't make super aoos.
By all means make your zombie Aoos. What's the attack bonus of a zombie hydra again, +13? Dealing 1d10+6 whitout counting as magic?The dragon can easily shrugg them off.
Also, it seems this adept has to invest in a stunt double: Hat of disguise + Zombie Commoner (or even better something that doesn't mind being grappled, like a wight). The dragon will fly over and attempt to eat it, everybody will hit the floor. Hydras will then jump on the dragon. While the adept starts firing laser beams disguised as a zombie commoner.
Carnex is a puny CR 3. The dragon can easily stay out of its aura, or just eat the -2 penalty. Adept is a spellcaster that can potentially have 5th level spells, including the dreaded Scorching Ray.The dragon has both the knowledge and the spot skills to recognize a necrosis Carnex and count him out as a primary target.
Interesting. So which skills exactly are you assuming from this dragon? Evidently Knowledge Religion. In which case he'll recognize the Adept as an NPC class Adept, and not a primary target. Certainly less of a target than a Carnex, which is healing the undead minions and which can give the dragon penalties to attack.
Thanks for the explanation, I seem to have missed that one.Where are you geting dominated minions with an adept again? He doesn't have dominate person on his spell list.
You know, comments like this as well as the comment about how the Dragon didn't have feats makes me think you're just jumping in to argue without having read the thread. The Adept in question has the Mother Cyst feat. As such, he can put Cysts in various people and then dominate them that way... he does this after any fight where the enemy isn't dead (for example, at -1 to -9 hp, or taken out via a save or suck, or when grappled and pinned by his other minions, or whatever). This was mentioned twice now in both of the Adept postings. Please don't jump in here and make assumptions without catching up a bit.
This means there's probably a few other minions walking around that look like much bigger threats than the Adept.Simple Sense Motive with DC 15 tells if somebody is being dominated, because they aren't acting normally. So the dragon sees a bunch of dominated people and mindless undeads, and one non-dominated humanoid. It doesn't take a dragon's intellect to figure out who's the one pulling the strings on the group.
What if he can't see the enemy, because the enemy moved behind something? It could be very tough to snatch someone if he's trying to find them while going full speed and dodging attacks. Nothing stops the Adept from shooting and then moving 30' (or riding a mount much farther than that) into a safer position, because the Adept can out shoot the dragon. Heck, if one of those animals was a burrowing creature, the Adept can fire and then, riding a burrowing saddle, be underground before the counter attack... then pop back out and kill with shot #2.Oh so your adept has no trouble micromanaging his small army, but the dragon suddenly can't react fast enough to obstacles?
With a limited duration yes. Dragons are patient. He can easily pull back and wear down the adept's entourage from a safe distance untill the Adept's out of spells. Maximize breath can also punch trough the resistance.Combined with shaped breath, the huge white dragon can snipe stuff while remaining 200 feet away.
You do realize the Adept has a spell that negates his breath weapon damage, right?
Funny thing though: they don't. Combat Reflexes lets you make multiple AoOs, not lots of attacks with one AoO. Furthermore, 9 attacks is the hydra's only attack option... they don't get a single attack option. So that statement doesn't actually make sense, because Combat Reflexes is neither relevant nor useful to a Hydra (except that living Hydras can do it more than once in a round). Without Combat Reflexes they use standard AoO rules, which is that they get a single attack action one time against any enemy that provokes an AoO. Since their attack action is 9 attacks, that's what they do. There's simply no other option.
Simple Sense Motive with DC 15 tells if somebody is being dominated, because they aren't acting normally. So the dragon sees a bunch of dominated people and mindless undeads, and one non-dominated humanoid. It doesn't take a dragon's intellect to figure out who's the one pulling the strings on the group.I can buy a lot of your arguments, but find this one very specious. White dragons aren't actually that smart. Sense Motive also takes 1 minute to use.
Trying to gain information with Sense Motive generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend a whole evening trying to get a sense of the people around you.
Carnex is a puny CR 3. The dragon can easily stay out of its aura, or just eat the -2 penalty. Adept is a spellcaster that can potentially have 5th level spells, including the dreaded Scorching Ray.
As for skills, I guess the basic set. Spot, Listen, Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Religion), and a bunch of leftover points in some more knowledges and stuff like 5 ranks in Balance, plus 1 rank in UMD.
Simple Sense Motive with DC 15 tells if somebody is being dominated, because they aren't acting normally. So the dragon sees a bunch of dominated people and mindless undeads, and one non-dominated humanoid. It doesn't take a dragon's intellect to figure out who's the one pulling the strings on the group.
Oh so your adept has no trouble micromanaging his small army, but the dragon suddenly can't react fast enough to obstacles?
The dragon has both blindsense and burrow speed. It can literally rip a burrowing adept out of the ground.
With a limited duration yes. Dragons are patient. He can easily pull back and wear down the adept's entourage from a safe distance untill the Adept's out of spells. Maximize breath can also punch trough the resistance.
Hell yes there is. The text is clear as water. Combat reflexes allows a hydra to Aoo with all heads. It doesn't get more specific than that. The only logic conclusion it's that whitout combat reflexes, the hydra can't Aoo with all heads.
Hat of disguise just gives a +10 bonus to disguise checks. Dragon has +25 to spot. Literally a paper-thin disguise.
You can't just ignore the rules when they don't agree with you.Jaron, I think you mean that he shouldn't ignore the rules when they do not agree with him. He is obviously capable of doing it.
You can't just ignore the rules when they don't agree with you.Jaron, I think you mean that he shouldn't ignore the rules when they do not agree with him. He is obviously capable of doing it.
... this is just absurd ...
I'm reasonably sure you already provoke AoO's by gravity.
Now you guys are killing innocent dragons to prove who has a bigger e-penis? You sick and twisted monsters. (http://www.darklegacycomics.com/10.jpg) :grave
Also, the monk isn't killing anyone so JaronK is the only one killing any dragons. If he is lucky.
Mostly because the MMI says that's how White Dragons do things.
Also, because a bunch of people (osle, Giacomo, etc) keep saying he'll go after the primary threat (the Adept) and not realizing that the Adept doesn't look like the primary threat... so really, he'd go after some other better primary threat. Heck, it seems to me I should have a dominated Commoner and give him a robe and staff so he looks like a Wizard. That might work great.
JaronK
Mostly because the MMI says that's how White Dragons do things.
Also, because a bunch of people (osle, Giacomo, etc) keep saying he'll go after the primary threat (the Adept) and not realizing that the Adept doesn't look like the primary threat... so really, he'd go after some other better primary threat. Heck, it seems to me I should have a dominated Commoner and give him a robe and staff so he looks like a Wizard. That might work great.
JaronK
Remember to have him yell orders at random all the time.
A properly played white dragon would probably use hit and run tactics against groups. Hide behind a silent image, in an icy filled ceiling tunnel entrance, fire off a breath weapon. Move back and knock lose some rocks that stop pursuers. Come in through the side of another tunnel, and fly past while snatching up a straggler from the group, before moving through a tunnel in the other side.
Attacking a group sporting multiple wizard looking guys and a bunch of zombie hydras directly just seem to rash for an ambushing creature.
But I'm very much up for DM'ing a fight against a Brass Dragon, which I find even better. I will roll the treasure for it randomly, and anything in there it can use it will use, the rest will be in a pile. I'm up for both of you facing off against it.
Alternatively I can do two CR 11 dragons working in a tag team instead. Which would be a bigger problem for both of you IMO.
Mostly because the MMI says that's how White Dragons do things.
Also, because a bunch of people (osle, Giacomo, etc) keep saying he'll go after the primary threat (the Adept) and not realizing that the Adept doesn't look like the primary threat... so really, he'd go after some other better primary threat. Heck, it seems to me I should have a dominated Commoner and give him a robe and staff so he looks like a Wizard. That might work great.
JaronK
Remember to have him yell orders at random all the time.
A properly played white dragon would probably use hit and run tactics against groups. Hide behind a silent image, in an icy filled ceiling tunnel entrance, fire off a breath weapon. Move back and knock lose some rocks that stop pursuers. Come in through the side of another tunnel, and fly past while snatching up a straggler from the group, before moving through a tunnel in the other side.
Attacking a group sporting multiple wizard looking guys and a bunch of zombie hydras directly just seem to rash for an ambushing creature.
But I'm very much up for DM'ing a fight against a Brass Dragon, which I find even better. I will roll the treasure for it randomly, and anything in there it can use it will use, the rest will be in a pile. I'm up for both of you facing off against it.
Alternatively I can do two CR 11 dragons working in a tag team instead. Which would be a bigger problem for both of you IMO.
2 x CR 11 = CR 13
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)
Just to bring it up, Necrotic Domination is Humanoids only. Necrotic Tumor (which works on anything) is 7th level, so the Adept can never get it.And yet ND works on dragons if JaronK can find ways to turn the dragon humanoid. Via, say, Polymorph (which, wonder of wonders, the adept has!).
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)
Once again, due to having Mother Cyst he can dominate random people he's fought (anyone who was grappled and pinned by his other minions so he could land the effect, anyone knocked to between -1 and -9hps, etc). So, likely there's a few PC classed folks wandering around with this Adept... whatever sorts of things he's been fighting.
As for the dragon, by real plan is to animate him once he's dead.
JaronK
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)
Once again, due to having Mother Cyst he can dominate random people he's fought (anyone who was grappled and pinned by his other minions so he could land the effect, anyone knocked to between -1 and -9hps, etc). So, likely there's a few PC classed folks wandering around with this Adept... whatever sorts of things he's been fighting.
As for the dragon, by real plan is to animate him once he's dead.
JaronK
I'd expect a higher than average number of rogues with this guy. Necrotic Cyst is a Fort save, Necrotic Domination is a Will save, rogues are bad at both... and they tend to fail hard when they go up against tough undead. Disguise and Bluff as class skills and they have loads of skill points to invest, don't rely on heavy armor either, they might be able to carry off pretending to be wizards if instructed to.
JaronK, you say that Adept doesn't look like a primary target. What other "primary targets" are there? (aside from the disguised commoner; I won't say that it's metagame-y or cheating, but come on)I think we should bring this up again: The real test is how these guys contribute to a party. The 1 v 1 fantasies are a tangent designed to prove that an Adept *can* contribute (he's got something like a 10% chance to kill the dragon on his own, so with a full party of ECL 12 characters he'll definitely be able to do something), and gives an indecisive result as to whether the Monk can contribute (the monk loses 100% of the time, so this test doesn't tell us how effective he might be if given the cover of a group).
Carve a hole in the hydras and let the party ride inside like some really gruesome mechs?"And I thought these things smelled bad on the outside."
Even if the zombies were all the adept had, and they couldn't hit anything ever, he'd still be contributing to some degree. Lots of people like something big, tough, and expendable to hide behind, or at least to provide cover from AoOs while they approach. The monk isn't very big without sucking up to the wizard (or burning wealth on pretending to be one), he isn't very tough ever, and being a PC he'll bitch about being reminded he's expendable.I don't deny that, but let's see what has been argued in favor the adept so far:
Carve a hole in the hydras and let the party ride inside like some really gruesome mechs?So let me see if get this, you're arguing that you can tear up chunk of flesh from a zombie, that is a mountain of animated flesh, and the zombies are just as fine as before?
I don't deny that, but let's see what has been argued in favor the adept so far:
-Never provoke attacks of oportunity for moving ever.
-He has some homebrew domination effect that's completely undetectable and never allows new will saves (nevermind RAW dominate allowing new will saves every time you order them do something they don't like, and sense motive DC 15 pointing it out).
-Has unbeatable disguise house rules, nevermind the actual disguise rules. And that nobody else can use.
-His undeads get to keep abilities at leisure that any other undead would lose.
-Can use polymorph on unwilling targets, despite it only working on willing targets. But, hey, screw the rules, he's the adept! He gets to play with his custom edition of D&D!
I don't deny that, but let's see what has been argued in favor the adept so far:Between teleporting and soft cover, it's not hard to move in a way that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
-Never provoke attacks of oportunity for moving ever.
-He has some homebrew domination effect that's completely undetectable and never allows new will saves (nevermind RAW dominate allowing new will saves every time you order them do something they don't like, and sense motive DC 15 pointing it out).It's not homebrew, it's in Libris Mortis. You don't get a new will save every time you are commanded to do something you don't like, you get a new will save every time you are commanded to do something against your nature (and killing shit isn't against a Hydra's nature). Nobody is saying that the Dragon can't make a DC 15 Sense Motive check to figure out that the creatures are dominated, they're saying that it takes an entire minute that leaves the dragon vulnerable to attack.
-Has unbeatable disguise house rules, nevermind the actual disguise rules. And that nobody else can use.Spotting through a well-made disguise that the user takes 20 to make is hard, RAW.
-His undeads get to keep abilities at leisure that any other undead would lose.Actually, this specific build is using a different spell to mass up thralls. I have no idea what you're talking about, here.
-Can use polymorph on unwilling targets, despite it only working on willing targets. But, hey, screw the rules, he's the adept! He gets to play with his custom edition of D&D!Helpless = willing.
So really, the adept has been allowed so much plain munchkinery that's he's plain invincible. Not even pun-pun could beat him with all the rule breaking he's allowed in this thread.Cry more. You're acting like an idiot, and remaining willfully ignorant of the rules, even as they are explained to you.
Yes, they are. HP are an abstract. It's not like a zombie needs it's internal organs anymore, anwyay.Carve a hole in the hydras and let the party ride inside like some really gruesome mechs?So let me see if get this, you're arguing that you can tear up chunk of flesh from a zombie, that is a mountain of animated flesh, and the zombies are just as fine as before?
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
From the SRD text of Aniamte Dead:This is how skeletons with one arm still have two claw attacks, RAW. Or that one-legged undead creatures don't have speed penalties. The way the real world works is infinitely more complicated than the way D&D works, and therefore you get strange things happening in D&D.A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
What this means exactly is up to the DM, but I'd treat a corpse that's missing internal organs (as in has a hole inside) but is fine otherwise as ''mostly intact'.
I let my players fly around inside a dragon once, but I think it was a skeletal dragon and they built something in its ribcage. They'd find riding around in a zombie distasteful, though.
The skeltal dragon template from draconomicon might let them. I forget.I let my players fly around inside a dragon once, but I think it was a skeletal dragon and they built something in its ribcage. They'd find riding around in a zombie distasteful, though.
Can skeletal dragons fly? Skeleton specifies that winged creatures can't fly if they become skeletal.
The skeltal dragon template from draconomicon might let them. I forget.I let my players fly around inside a dragon once, but I think it was a skeletal dragon and they built something in its ribcage. They'd find riding around in a zombie distasteful, though.
Can skeletal dragons fly? Skeleton specifies that winged creatures can't fly if they become skeletal.
I don't deny that, but let's see what has been argued in favor the adept so far:
-Never provoke attacks of oportunity for moving ever.
-He has some homebrew domination effect that's completely undetectable and never allows new will saves (nevermind RAW dominate allowing new will saves every time you order them do something they don't like, and sense motive DC 15 pointing it out).
-Has unbeatable disguise house rules, nevermind the actual disguise rules. And that nobody else can use.
-His undeads get to keep abilities at leisure that any other undead would lose.
-Can use polymorph on unwilling targets, despite it only working on willing targets. But, hey, screw the rules, he's the adept! He gets to play with his custom edition of D&D!
I would argue that if Adepts are able to kill adventurers of a given level, then a dragon will know that Adepts are bigger threats than adventurers of that level, regardless of whether Adept is a PC class or not.This is just silly. Just because one specific individual is more powerful than average doesn't mean that everyone that uses his base class is...
From the SRD text of Aniamte Dead:A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
What this means exactly is up to the DM, but I'd treat a corpse that's missing internal organs (as in has a hole inside) but is fine otherwise as ''mostly intact'.
EDIT: even by looking at the default zombie picture in the MM: the thing is missing one hand, one eye and at least part of it's lower entrails (the left side of the lower torso can be seen as empty).
Kind of, but more specifically, I mean that if the Adept is that powerful, he should be the primary target, and if he isn't, he shouldn't have primary spellcasting minions. You can't have it both ways, at least not plausibly (like having the perfect array of creatures to animate, though we've established that particular thing is unnecessary). You could theoretically have the Adept encounter a bunch of NPC wizards with unoptimized spell lists that the Adept bootstraps up, but I wouldn't expect that to happen more than once in any given Adept's career (especially since the Wizards this dumb will not get to the same high level as the optimized Adept can achieve, meaning it's likelier to happen at low level, with lower level Wizards and less likely to happen as Wizards get actually game-breakingly powerful).
Basically, I object to you giving the Dragon Giacomo's logic of, "Well, it's an NPC class so it can't be that much of a threat!" while establishing credibly that Adepts can actually be threats. Incidentally, is the Sense Motive to determine a creature's relative power level also 1 minute long? Or is that entire check a houserule that I've been using for so long I've assumed it's part of the real rules, like I did with crit fumbles so long ago.
The power level won't give you much other than "he's not a threat" actually, but the same would be true of everyone in the band. I'm not saying NPCs aren't a huge threat, but rather that they're unlikely to be considered the absolute largest threat compared to everyone else. I just don't buy that the Dragon instantly knows to attack the Adept, who's specifically looking basically like the minions he's with. I mean seriously, if you saw a group of enemies that included an Adept, two Zombie Hydras, two healing Necrosis Carnexes, and three miscelaneous PC classes... what are the chances you'd pick the Adept as the biggest threat? Heck, the only reason the Adept himself is the big threat (as opposed to his minions) is because this dragon is vulnerable to fire.This is true. The fact that it's a White dragon helps the adept greatly, but I'd think that even if it was a Green dragon the Adept would have just a slightly lower chance of success. Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.
JaronK
No way those are EL 12 encounters. The Monk Dragon is, at best, EL 8
Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.
Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.
It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.
Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.
It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.
Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.
It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.
If range is an issue, the Adept could cast hammer of righteousness, that is 220 feet range, and 12d8, save for half. That should put a dent in the dragon as well.
If range is an issue, the Adept could cast hammer of righteousness, that is 220 feet range, and 12d8, save for half. That should put a dent in the dragon as well.
I think that spell is not adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)'s spell list.
If range is an issue, the Adept could cast hammer of righteousness, that is 220 feet range, and 12d8, save for half. That should put a dent in the dragon as well.
I think that spell is not adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)'s spell list.
I think the fact that we have to optimize the White Dragon a bit before it can take down the Adept easily, but we barely have to do anything more than base logic against the Monk, clearly shows which class is better in this fight.Not necessarily. It could just mean that "Giacomo" sucks at proving his position.
@Shiki, Lo77o: Ok, sanctified magic BoED p.83 kosher for adepts. Never paid attention that one before, thanks for pointing it out! :) Only limitation is to utterly devote to good. BoVD p.77 corrupt magic is for the evil ones. I suppose one must choose between sanctified and corrupt magic.
Possibly, though his last Monk was using a heck of a lot of potent ACFs. Maybe someone else should make one? But try to make it similar in optimization level to the Adept being compared, if possible.Does the monk that I helped Snakeman830 make (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11801.msg420336#msg420336) count? I'm pretty sure it has a chance of taking out the dragon on its own.
JaronK
@Shiki, Lo77o: Ok, sanctified magic BoED p.83 kosher for adepts. Never paid attention that one before, thanks for pointing it out! :) Only limitation is to utterly devote to good. BoVD p.77 corrupt magic is for the evil ones. I suppose one must choose between sanctified and corrupt magic.
One require you to be non-evil, the other non-good. So any neutral char can cast both.
It is a bit contradictory to utterly devote to good by committing evil acts..Some people go both ways.
Heil Tsukiko.It is a bit contradictory to utterly devote to good by committing evil acts..Some people go both ways.
Sometimes it helps to take a step back and look at what we do here:Firstly, the monk uses custom items that cast spells. 1st level spells at that. If this is allowed, I want a use activated sword of true-striking, and a use activated ring of divine insight.
The big question is whether the adept is really more powerful than the monk, as illustrated by JaronK’s expert build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12198.msg423220#msg423220) and my monk build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12198.msg423454#msg423454), both humans of 12th level; 25-pt-buy. (I listed the links to the builds again, because, strangely, for some reasons my build gets misquoted so often and confounded with a 7th level skill-focused monk build of mine that I think having the original links handy can only help the discussion ;) ).
A. A lair well laid out and designed by the dragon to allow no area outside his blindsight, plus traps near the entrance to get alerted (interesting btw that JaronK assumed this not to be the case when his adept’s imp went scouting, but when realising the monk’s superior stealth and movement abilities, intended to make blindsense count for both to eliminate surprise rounds in favour of the monk ;) )It has been proven, multiple times. Why the dragon would fare badly against the adept without the lair. Attempting to snatch up the adept is close to impossible when he is in his army, also, the dragon would be using minutes to discern who is the threat through sense motive. The dragon probably don't have minutes unless it wants its' hoard stolen.
B. Choosing spells, feats and skills for the dragon as thought appropriate (I had suggested that quite long ago in that thread, but only using the skills and feats that the MM I itself recommends- going beyond that, even making use of items in the dragon’s hoard simply is increasing the CR as per core rules)Well, I can use the White Dragon out of the box instead. However, the dragons that are described in MM are not complete builds. They do not have feats or spells selected for them. In which case I guess it will be allright to give them some? A mature adult white dragon should have 7 feats and 8 spells IIRC.
1a) Adept vs dragonNot backed up.
The adept very likely has no chance vs the dragon, even (and probably even because of!) his animal/zombie zoo.
He has no way to gain the surprise round (his army is the opposite of being stealthy, and even the imp does not help much scouting ahead – at best he’ll not get killed by the dragon in the process). It is, by contrast, the dragon with his likely good stealth skills and lair defense which will get the surprise round.Exactly, the adept wont get the surprise round, the Dragon will use it's cave to deal with him. It will probably hide in a tunnel in the ceiling, due to it's permanent spiderclimb on icy floors. It's hoard will probably be frozen inside that same ceiling, like white dragons apparently prefer to.
Additionally, the dragon is likely to win the initiative, too. The dragon now has a surprise round standard action and a first found full round action vs the adept. It all really depends on whether the adept will be discernible as the master behind the zombies and animals. I guess the dragon’s spot and sense motive will beat any disguise or bluff that the adept can muster (both disguise and bluff being cross-class skills for the adept, spot and sense motive being class skills for the dragon). Then it is just a flyby/snatch attack, breath/full attack the flat-footed adept and the combat is over (since the adept lacks any meaningful defensive spells; even his mirror image and/or invisibility does not last long enough to be up all the times – also blindsense/blind-fight counters this largely). Single AoOs from the hydras vs the DR 10 dragon will not prevent this.Yes, the dragon now has 1.5 rounds to discern who is the threat. Something that by and large takes either 20 rounds for taking 20 on a spot check, or a minute for attempting a sense motive threat. It doesn't have the time for either, so it attacks randomly and have about 10% chance of hitting the adept.
Anklets of translocation, as outlined by Oslecamo, also do not help (I liked the feather fall trick to get away, but in the blindsense-optimised cave this does not get the adept out of the dragon’s movement range by falling). The adept will have to find some way through an item to get through this – and I am not sure how many DMs will accept cyst dominations to get even more (non-undead, non-animal) minions as decoy since even a monk with diplomacy might be doing that.Nope, but it does get the adept the ability to hide behind his zombies, or find some cover.
Even IF the adept somehow remains hidden/escapes the notice of the dragon until the adept’s turn, his only real options are web and a scorching ray. Web needs specific area for it to be attached (=dragon close to wall) and will be hard to pass by the dragon’s high reflex save (it is DC 18ish vs the dragon’s +12 reflex save). Also, given the dragon’s SR 20, only a third of the maximized scorching rays will go through, doing vs this cold type dragon only 72 damage each turn. This means that the adept relying on the rays will have to hope the dragon is in range of the rays for four (!) rounds. Meanwhile, the dragon will do a lot of damage to his army – and lethal damage to the adept. A Mirror Image will be mostly negated by the dragon’s fog cloud/blindsense/blind-fight tactics, and the first ray shot will alert the dragon as to who is the (only) real threat here.Even on a save the dragon is entangled by web: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.
Another powerful offensive I see here is turning one of the undead into a more dangerous undead like a greater shadow with polymorph (still mindless, but so what). But that still supposes that 1) the adept somehow survives the dragon’s 1.5 turns against him before he can cast plus the several rounds the more powerful undead needs to be considered a serious threat and 2) the dragon does not simply avoid the threat, holes up the adept and his zoo in his lair (say with an avalanche) and comes back later when the polymorph spell is over (again with 1.5 rounds head advantage). Another improvement for the animate dead tactics- which I suggested to JaronK many posts ago and which he ignores since – is to use skeletons instead of zombies and so at least get a bit more mobility for his army (not much, but still).Decent trick. I would probably just send in the Shadow and tell it to kill ANY dragon it finds inside instead of going in there with it. The dragon doesn't have much to deal with it except a few magic missiles, and if the polymorphed undead was a Hydra, it would have too many HP to kill with that. The adept could also have a Necropolitan under his control (who he could have commanded to become necropolitan when they had a cyst in their head). Who would be intelligent enough to search for the dragon.
And all of this assumes the adept gets the dragon in his lair somehow accessible to his zombies and animals. Likely the lair is somewhere in icy mountains/in a cliff/below an icy lake. The zombies and most animals cannot even climb to such a lair/reach it to start with. The traps all of a sudden conjured up to impair the highly mobile monk apparently so far were not considered to apply to the zombie army – a serious omission, I daresay: Simple pits will stop the hydras altogether. They drop in and will never be able to get out. Meanwhile, of course, both zombies and animals have no chance vs a flying dragon out in the open.The adept has, among his zombies multiple modes of movement. Getting them around might prove a small hurdle, but not that much. A clever dragon would use this in the fight though.
When I advocated the joker monk to use UMD with cheap wands, the costs were certainly below losing/replacing on average20HD of zombies =1000 gp per encounter for the adept using animate dead. And this is the kind of loss rate I’d expect. It is the vulnerability of the mindless undead to even the simplest of obstacles, or ranged weapons, spells, npc priests rebuking/turning them, npcs with command undead spells turning them against the group etc. that make 25gp for each HD over time quite expensive.I think you misunderstand, the joker monk needs to spend those gold to keep being effective, he gets diminishing returns.
1b) Monk vs dragonEven out of the box, the dragon can wreak that monk build. Even though it uses items that aren't allowed. Warning can't be put on an amulet, it is a weapon enhancement. You can't have items that can cast spells like that out of custom items. Custom items break the game in and on themselves.
I think this is going to be a tougher fight than I initially thought – and the more the dragon gets better non-core feats and spells (i.e. stuff not listed as most favourite in the MM I entry, but more along the lines of the draconomicon), the better the chances of the dragon will be.
He has stealth abilities. He could try an ambush somewhere outside the lair after observing the dragon for a while (the monk has ring of sustenance, he can take his time). Also, his knowledge-arcane skill may be useful. Also, his high spot and listen modifiers will help him not to be surprised by the dragon.He can fly for a total of 25 rounds each day with his winged vest. How is going to ambush the dragon who flies faster than him at all? If the dragon met the monk outside, it could simply breathe frost at him and move to always be outside his range. If he decided to come closer, if he didn't activate his torc, the dragon could simply eat him. Or it could sunder his vest making him fall. The monk can only move 90ft in a charge while he is flying.
Even without a way to charge the dragon outside its blindsense range, the monk can just enlarge way outside the lair, enter, blinking all the time, the lair flying and will have a good chance to notice the dragon (spot +33 vs dragon’s hide +16 and at most -6 in the smaller cave optimized for blindsense). With surprise going to neither, the monk will have about an even chance for going first(IF the dragon has nerveskitter). Even when losing the initiative, he can due to combat reflexes AoO the charging dragon from 20ft away while flat-footed AND then even use immediate actions to activate invisibility or blink (since after having attacked even with an AoO he no longer is flat-footed, even when he misses; yes combat reflexes with reach is that useful!)So he gets to make one attack at the dragon with his AoO, then activates blink. Then he loses his next swift action, so next round he can't activate his torc, meaning he can't trip the dragon. The dragon can just keep attacking him, hitting with one attack can mean the end for the monk, because the dragon could just grapple him.
Once the dragon is close to him, he can trip/stall him as per 3.5 FAQ, and with his spiked chain reach 20ft away (he can use a move action to get to that distance) – preventing the dragon from getting within its melee range. With enlarge up the monk can activate the torc of the titans and add a mighty throw maneuver for +23 modifier vs the dragon’s +20.Where are you getting enlarge again? Your custom item? Fine, you don't have that. Torc of the Titans is a swift action activation. You can't do that on an AoO. you are now at +13 against +20. Pretty hard to trip the dragon now, isn't it?
More simply, the monk can snap kick the dragon twice doing 24d6+10 damage, at +21 to hit plus activating his touch attack amulet plus DC 23 stuns (the dragon’s fort +17 means he has a 60% chance only to save vs two such stunning attacks). Basically then the monk can either do enough damage to kill the dragon outright over a couple of rounds, or stun him (reducing chance of survival even more), or even get a lucky punch in early on with a massive damage fortitude DC 15 save.Well, You can't activate both the Torc and Heartseeker amulet. You don't have any source of enlarge. Fanged ring doesn't stack with INA. I'm at most getting your size to Huge here. That's not 24d6 of damage. The dragon has +17 Fort save, meaning he makes the save on a 4 or better. That is 15% chance per attack of failing. Giving the dragon around 75% chance of not being stunned. Assuming you don't fail on your own miss chance. Heartseeking amulet only works on one attack. So you only hit with one of your two attacks.
Note that things will definitely go wrong for the monk.FTFY
His blinking means 20% of his attacks miss. Also, the dragon may certainly have other tricks (like spells) up its sleeve. However, even so, the monk – unlike the adept – will survive a full attack from the dragon who likely will not power attack fully/or with full knowledge of the monk’s AC.Why not? He is hiding behind miss chances, he probably doesn't have a good AC.
In case both invisbility and blink are up, the dragon’s damage is even reduced to 25% (two cumulative 50% miss chances). Similarly, the adept’s bane – the flyby snatch attack with grapple – will not be effective vs the blinking monk.It's not likely to work against the Adept either. Which has been pointed out multiple times
As soon as the dragon somehow does not manage to kill the monk before the monk gets to act twice (=four attacks for each 40ish-100ish damage, plus four DC 21-23 stuns), he has a problem. Note again how the adept needs 4 rounds (= scorching rays) to kill the dragon even in the most favourable of circumstances.But it can quite easily kill the monk ridicolously fast. And why would it ever allow the monk to make full attacks against it?
Outside, flying, the monk may be able to charge the dragon from 200ft away (150ft if blinking). This is not enough to force the dragon to fight at all times – certainly. But again, it is more than what the adept offers.Why wouldn't the dragon be flying? Sometimes it might be climbing on slippery ice slopes (read ceiling) instead. But you can't charge there anyway.
The adept is a npc class, after all, with little beyond the core rules to boost it – while the monk received plenty of new options/ACFs. Though – you guessed it – even within the core rules only I see the monk clearly ahead.The adept has spells. And quite a bit of them.
Also, I think SorO_Lost hinted that there are way more powerful monks possible than my build (involving things like battle jump) -maybe he would wish to post it here?You know, it turns out it is over on the Expert vs Monk thread not this troll feeding Adapt vs Monk thread.
Finally got around to finalizing my earlier Monk build today.
[spoiler]WritheDesecrated Crafted Necropoliton Fire Elf Monk 9 (undead)
(http://img.aegen.nl/TSP/Nightshade%20Assassin.jpg)
HD: 9d12+36 (100 HP)
Initiative: +4 = +0 (dex) + 4 (nimble bones)
Speed: 70ft. (50ft. while Blinking) = 30 (base) + 30 (enhancement) + 10 (nimble bones)
AC: 15 (+3 wis, +2 natural) Touch: 13, Flat-Footed: 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+12
Attack: +16(+21) = +6 (bab) + 6 (str) + 1 (enhancement) + 1 (marital aptitude) + +2* (flanking) + 3* (martial aptitude) + 2 (hidden). *using distracting ember.
Charge Damage: +93 = +6 (str) + 3 (thf) * 2 (power lunge) + 12 (pa) + 1 (enhancement) * 3 (valorous + battle jump)
Attack Options:
Unarmed Strike +14 melee (1d10+6, +1d6 cold, +1d6 good/evil), Full Attack +14/+9, Flurry of Blows +14/+14/+9.
Butterfly Sword +16 melee (1d6+7, +1d6 good/evil), Full Attack +14/+9, Flurry of Blows +16/+16/+11.
Waithstrike Fukimi-Bari +4/+4/+4 ranged touch (1 + black lotus poison), Full Attack +4/+4/+4/-1/-1/-1 ranged touch (1 + black lotus poison).
Heedless Charge +21 melee (3d6+93, +1d6 good/evil)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows, Holy Strike, Unarmed Strike.
Special Qualities: Fast Movement, Prayerful Meditation, Wall Walker, Purity of Body, Dark Moon Disciple(shadow blend), Invisible Fist, Undead Traits, Turn Resistance +6.
Saves: Fort +6, Refl +6, Will +9.
Abilities (pb 28):
Str: 22 (+6) = 16 (base) + 2 (level) + 4 (enhancement)
Dex: 10 (+0) = 8 (base) + 2 (racial)
Con: -- (+0) = 8 (base) - 2 (racial)
Int: 16 (+3) = 14 (base) + 2 (racial)
Wis: 16 (+3) = 14 (base) + 2 (enhancement)
Cha: 12 (+1) = 14 (base) - 2 (racial)
Feats: Skill ProdigyF, Hidden Talent(psionic minor creation)F, Battle Jump1st, Power AttackB, Improved Bull RushB, Martial Study(distracting ember)3rd, Power Lunge6th, TrackB, Shock Trooper9th.
Skills (ranks only, 4+3*9=63): Balance 5, Diplomacy 5, Move Silently 12, Survival 7, Tumble 12, Use Magic Device* 12, Lucid Dreaming* 10.
Equipment (WBL 36,000gp, 28,651 spent): Fukimi-Bari x 50 (50gp), Wand-Waithstrike x20 (1,800gp), Marbles x 10 (1gp), Wand-Guidance of the Avatar x20 (1,800gp), +1 Valorous Desert Wind Butterfly Sword (18,300gp), Periapt of Wisdom +2 (2,000gp), Masterwork Tool x6 (300gp), Catspaws (6,200gp). Anything else needed and useful.
Languages: Common, Elven + 3 others.
Environment: Urban Areas.
Organization: Any
CR: 9
Treasure: See Equipment.
Alignment: Always lawful.
Advancement: By Class.
Level Adjustment: +0
Writhe is an assassin for hire. Typically he stalks his opponent learning his target's patterns and weaknesses before making his move. His signature is impaling the target's corpse on the ceiling after they have been killed. The method various from blunt force trauma & deep incisions to poisoning with needles. However, recently it became known that Writhe kills by ingested poison. An accurate kill count is unknown.
Tactics
Writhe's Shadow Blend ability grants him total concealment in areas without full sun light. The ability isn't invisiblity and doesn't require a hide check. Effects such as See Invisibility, True Seeing and Glitterdust cannot reveal the target as none of them negate concealment. However, effects such as Blindsight ignore this effect.
To complement that trait Writhe has the ability to cast Blink as an immediate action spell-like ability with a duration of 3 rounds. Writhe can use this once once per 3 rounds and thus by spending the immediate action every three rounds can remain in a perpetual Blinking state for stalking. While Blinking, Writhe has at least a 20% concealment against creatures with Blindsight-like effects, can fly with perfect maneuverability, and may walk though walls and such. However Writhe's speed drops to 3/4, his range of vision is 60ft and he suffers a 20% miss chance against other creatures. Normally Writhe will drop this prior to an assassination attempt.
Using his Shadow Blend & Blink Writhe can sneak into almost anywhere and by using of his Tracking abilities locate and dispatch targets as needed.
In direct combat. Writhe sticks to flanking his opponent only attacking when he has the upper hand. Frequently, if fighting in a building, using Blink or Wall Walker to fall from above he will use Battle Jump then use a free action to drop prone and though Blink continue to fall though the floor preventing retribution. If movement is prevented another well used tactic is using his Wand of Wraithstrike prior to spitting poisoned darts out of his mouth. And he is no stranger to fleeing from out right stronger opponents.
Benchmarks
[spoiler]Melee
Half-Orc Barbarbian 9
Str: 34 (+12) = 18 (base) + 2 (racial) + 2 (level) + 4 (enhancement) + 6 (greater rage)
Hit: 23 = 9 (bab) + 12 (str) + 2 (enhancement).
Damage: +112 = 12 (str) + 6 (thf) + 2 (enhancement) + 36 (pa + leap) * 2 (valorous)
Difference: -2 to attack (mindful Writhe's targets also lost Dex to AC) & -19 to damage.
Scouting
Dark Whispergnome Rogue 8
Speed: 40ft. = 30 (base) + 10 (dark)
Hide: +37 = 11 (ranks) + 4 (racial: gnome) + 8 (racial: dark) + 2 (unnamed: shadowweave) + 4 (size) + 6 (dex) + 2 (circumstantial)
Move: +32 = 11 (ranks) + 4 (racial: gnome) + 6 (racial: dark) + 2 (unnamed: shadowweave) + 6 (dex) + 2 (circumstantial)
Difference: Superior Speed, Hide uncompairable, -10 Move Silently, able to Track.
***[/spoiler]
***[/spoiler]
Hope you like it, and if not, I got some spare gold ;)
@Halinn: the Centaurs aren't an issue because after the White Dragon fight the Adept got a Zombie Mature Adult White Dragon, which has enough speed to just run up and Crush any one enemy, allowing the others in the group to take that enemy out... then he can repeat. Can't kite away from that flight speed.
And with taking 20, someone probably having a few ranks in disguise, and range penalties, you end up with the dragon likely not seeing through any disguises. Not that disguises are needed. The adept wears whatever he normally would wear, and the probably lower level humanoids wear what they would. Perhaps toss a holy symbol on a dominated fighter, give a staff and a book to a commoner and such. All in all there is a fairly good chance that the dragon will consider someone who isn't the adept to be the primary threat.
...and you are using some sort of homebrew spell that compels me to place the palm of my hand upon my face.Blacks and Blues, though, with their long-range lines would probably kill both the Adept and the Monk with equal ease.
It's trivial for the white dragon to get a long range line breath weapon with a simple feat. It's actualy something expected of a dragon that still didn't get his spellcasting at full power. But of course the monster ecounters aren't allowed to use anything resembling decent tactics against the adept here. They aren't even allowed to use feats or skills.
Firstly, the monk uses custom items that cast spells. 1st level spells at that. If this is allowed, I want a use activated sword of true-striking, and a use activated ring of divine insight.Yeah, it's worth noting that the magic item pricing guidelines are exactly that: Guidelines. They can give a general idea of how much items should cost, but sometimes they fail spectacularly at it.
B. Choosing spells, feats and skills for the dragon as thought appropriate (I had suggested that quite long ago in that thread, but only using the skills and feats that the MM I itself recommends- going beyond that, even making use of items in the dragon’s hoard simply is increasing the CR as per core rules)What logical reason is there to restrict the dragon to the core rulebooks when the monk is not similarly restrained? If additional options increase the dragon's overall power and the same holds true for the monk, then you're giving the monk an advantage in this fight (after all, the Monster Manual labels a creature's CR a subjective judgment and not an exact science), which rather defeats the purpose. Swapping feats, skills, and spells is a common practice, and what's available to the monk is available to the dragon, since the latter is run by the DM. As a side note, the sample dragons in the Draconomicon have Challenge Ratings consistent with their age categories but do have non-standard feats.
Firstly, the monk uses custom items that cast spells. 1st level spells at that. If this is allowed, I want a use activated sword of true-striking, and a use activated ring of divine insight.
It has been proven, multiple times. Why the dragon would fare badly against the adept without the lair. Attempting to snatch up the adept is close to impossible when he is in his army, also, the dragon would be using minutes to discern who is the threat through sense motive. The dragon probably don't have minutes unless it wants its' hoard stolen.
Well, I can use the White Dragon out of the box instead. However, the dragons that are described in MM are not complete builds. They do not have feats or spells selected for them. In which case I guess it will be allright to give them some? A mature adult white dragon should have 7 feats and 8 spells IIRC.
Exactly, the adept wont get the surprise round, the Dragon will use it's cave to deal with him. It will probably hide in a tunnel in the ceiling, due to it's permanent spiderclimb on icy floors. It's hoard will probably be frozen inside that same ceiling, like white dragons apparently prefer to.
Yes, the dragon now has 1.5 rounds to discern who is the threat. Something that by and large takes either 20 rounds for taking 20 on a spot check, or a minute for attempting a sense motive threat. It doesn't have the time for either, so it attacks randomly and have about 10% chance of hitting the adept.
Nope, but it does get the adept the ability to hide behind his zombies, or find some cover.
Even on a save the dragon is entangled by web: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.
And web works even better:
Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10.
The dragon will not be moving more than 5-10 ft in the web each round.
All rounds in which the adept and his friends can use to let loose an artillery barrage against the dragon. Also, Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) offers no spell resistance.
Decent trick. I would probably just send in the Shadow and tell it to kill ANY dragon it finds inside instead of going in there with it. The dragon doesn't have much to deal with it except a few magic missiles, and if the polymorphed undead was a Hydra, it would have too many HP to kill with that.
The adept could also have a Necropolitan under his control (who he could have commanded to become necropolitan when they had a cyst in their head). Who would be intelligent enough to search for the dragon.
The adept has, among his zombies multiple modes of movement. Getting them around might prove a small hurdle, but not that much. A clever dragon would use this in the fight though.
I think you misunderstand, the joker monk needs to spend those gold to keep being effective, he gets diminishing returns.
The adept, on the other hand, spends his money getting more and more zombies and followers. Increasing his power for every fight he does.
Even out of the box, the dragon can wreak that monk build. Even though it uses items that aren't allowed. Warning can't be put on an amulet, it is a weapon enhancement. You can't have items that can cast spells like that out of custom items. Custom items break the game in and on themselves.
can fly for a total of 25 rounds each day with his winged vest. How is going to ambush the dragon who flies faster than him at all? If the dragon met the monk outside, it could simply breathe frost at him and move to always be outside his range. If he decided to come closer, if he didn't activate his torc, the dragon could simply eat him. Or it could sunder his vest making him fall. The monk can only move 90ft in a charge while he is flying.
So he gets to make one attack at the dragon with his AoO, then activates blink. Then he loses his next swift action, so next round he can't activate his torc, meaning he can't trip the dragon. The dragon can just keep attacking him, hitting with one attack can mean the end for the monk, because the dragon could just grapple him.
Where are you getting enlarge again? Your custom item? Fine, you don't have that. Torc of the Titans is a swift action activation. You can't do that on an AoO. you are now at +13 against +20. Pretty hard to trip the dragon now, isn't it?
Well, You can't activate both the Torc and Heartseeker amulet. You don't have any source of enlarge. Fanged ring doesn't stack with INA. I'm at most getting your size to Huge here. That's not 24d6 of damage. The dragon has +17 Fort save, meaning he makes the save on a 4 or better. That is 15% chance per attack of failing. Giving the dragon around 75% chance of not being stunned. Assuming you don't fail on your own miss chance. Heartseeking amulet only works on one attack. So you only hit with one of your two attacks.
Why not? He is hiding behind miss chances, he probably doesn't have a good AC.
It's not likely to work against the Adept either. Which has been pointed out multiple times
But it can quite easily kill the monk ridicolously fast. And why would it ever allow the monk to make full attacks against it?
Why wouldn't the dragon be flying? Sometimes it might be climbing on slippery ice slopes (read ceiling) instead. But you can't charge there anyway.
The adept has spells. And quite a bit of them.
See: compare both classes without any items at all. Adept sucks massively.Challenge Accepted.
When vilest acts are allowed to create armies of undead, I see no problems for a DM allowing custom items for 1st-3rd level spells.
That would be the dominated humanoids. And with taking 20.A. No Dominate on the Adapt's spell list, using Mother Cyst? Blah Monk uses Diplomacy this proxy talk is getting old. I'm best friends with Pelor, look at how great I, not them, me, memememememe, and ONLY me, am! Whoop whoop!
If the dragon wants to use detect magic, that's three rounds of concentration spent with at most 60 ft range.
That would be the dominated humanoids. And with taking 20.A. No Dominate on the Adapt's spell list, using Mother Cyst? Blah Monk uses Diplomacy this proxy talk is getting old. I'm best friends with Pelor, look at how great I, not them, me, memememememe, and ONLY me, am! Whoop whoop!
If the dragon wants to use detect magic, that's three rounds of concentration spent with at most 60 ft range.
B. Can't do that.
C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.
If I spent half as much effort claiming to have an army I'm way to lazy to look up and detail as you people, my 1/4 HD Chicken build would be kicking dragon ass.
***
Lahms Finger Darts? I forgot and therefor had to google thus, after getting several dozen hits for posts about how over powered it is, are it dawned on me you can put it in Wand form and UMD it. Guess who has a newthing to rememberjpg file ^_^
Serious. I can respect it. It isn't by proxy, it doesn't forget half the rules in D&D, it doesn't assume the White Dragon is a moron, and given my low level Monk relies on Battle Jump, relying on Finger Darts isn't something I could argue against. Best Adapt build so far.
C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?
Agreed. I have never heard of this either. Sure, it usually will pick them up because they have some sort of buff/magic item on them, but I've never heard of it picking them up by default.C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?
Ever read the SRD?C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?
Guess not, but at least you googled after you posted. Also it's a standard action to cast and can be made permanent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) for 7,950gp (and most of that is xp to gp costs).Agreed. I have never heard of this either. Sure, it usually will pick them up because they have some sort of buff/magic item on them, but I've never heard of it picking them up by default.C. Arcane Sight, my bad. Auto sees magical auras without any action spent. Spellcasters them selves produce a magical aura where as nonspellcasters don't. So what, going to claim you dominated Bards and Wizards? Pics or it didn't happen.Seriously? That's a new one. Quotes and pages, please?
Quotes or admit that you're making stuff up again.
EDIT: Arcane Sight DOES allow one to determine some things about a creature; if they have spells/spell-likes, wether those spells are arcane or divine (spell-likes always show up as arcane here), and the highest level one has currently available to use. Of course, this does require a standard action, so once again, Soro is making stuff up.
This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly.
You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight. An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning level or an item’s caster level, as noted in the description of the detect magic spell. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + one-half caster level for a nonspell effect.)
Would advise against using a wand of it.... You loose a finger for every 1d4 damage you do. Unless you have a way to regrow or prevent it, you will quickly loose the use of your hands.Your fingers reheal as the Corruption cost damage (1 point of str per 1d4 dealt) is healed I believe, the effect is independent of how you cast the spell.
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Would advise against using a wand of it.... You loose a finger for every 1d4 damage you do. Unless you have a way to regrow or prevent it, you will quickly loose the use of your hands.Your fingers reheal as the Corruption cost damage (1 point of str per 1d4 dealt) is healed I believe, the effect is independent of how you cast the spell.
Out of curiosity, would anyone else be pretty PO'd if they fought a dragon and the DM said "actually, you don't get as much treasure, because he spent some of it on permanancied scrolls"?
Seriously, let's not go completely overboard here.
JaronK
Recall that Spellcraft requires the ability to "see or detect the effects of the spell" to identify it. Knowing of the spell's presence (and school) are not enough.
Ok, I'm going to ask this, because I just don't know anymore.Recall that Spellcraft requires the ability to "see or detect the effects of the spell" to identify it. Knowing of the spell's presence (and school) are not enough.
Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:
20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required, and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.
Recall that Spellcraft requires the ability to "see or detect the effects of the spell" to identify it. Knowing of the spell's presence (and school) are not enough.
Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:
20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required, and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.
What are you arguing? To what ends are you making that argument?
Why does this matter?What are you arguing? To what ends are you making that argument?
Jaronk claims that his adept somehow blends perfectly in the background while his minions and zombies automatically draw aggro from any monsters MMO style for unphatomable reasons (that dude has a book and a wooden staff! He's clearly a mighty archmage!). I just present the several ways on how the enemy can see the adept is clearly the target to take down as he's the one pulling the strings of all the group and is the key link to take down.
Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:
20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required, and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.
Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.
Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:
20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required, and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.
Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.
Well, no, that's what he'd probably assume on a failed check, but provided that the quote from Spellcraft's rules is accurate, it seems pretty clear that the dragon could do this. It's stupid, because it allows you to bypass the Sense Motive rules, and therefore probably is against RAI, but if you can see the people being dominated, you clearly see the effects of the spell (even if, because you can't make the Sense Motive check, you don't understand the implications of the effects; RAW, Spellcraft doesn't require that).
I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect. Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.
Yeah, I have to agree there. There's no obvious sign that the minions are being controlled; Necrotic Domination functions like Dominate Person, so the commands are telepathic. Now if you have Arcane Sight/Detect Magic up, it's a different matter entirely, but as I understand it, the chance of the dragon getting a Permanent Arcane Sight via scrolls is slim if it doesn't spend additional money to increase its caster level.Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:
20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required, and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.
Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.
Well, no, that's what he'd probably assume on a failed check, but provided that the quote from Spellcraft's rules is accurate, it seems pretty clear that the dragon could do this. It's stupid, because it allows you to bypass the Sense Motive rules, and therefore probably is against RAI, but if you can see the people being dominated, you clearly see the effects of the spell (even if, because you can't make the Sense Motive check, you don't understand the implications of the effects; RAW, Spellcraft doesn't require that).
I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect. Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.
I can agree with you on this Sobolev. RAW you can do this (Use Spellcraft to see Dominate). RAI it *seems* that "Sense Motive" is what *should* be used to determine if someone is under the effects of a Dominate spell/effect. It's pretty obvious that was the intention Sense Motive (not Spellcraft) is directly written into the text of the spell. Obviously, RAI varies widely.Magic obsoletes certain skills. That's nothing new or surprising. You have Spider Climb > Climbing, you have Fly/Levitate > Jump, you have Charm Person/Monster > Diplomacy, etc.
I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect. Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.You're talking about Detect Magic/Arcane Sight or Sense Motive?
Yeah, I have to agree there. There's no obvious sign that the minions are being controlled; Necrotic Domination functions like Dominate Person, so the commands are telepathic. Now if you have Arcane Sight/Detect Magic up, it's a different matter entirely, but as I understand it, the chance of the dragon getting a Permanent Arcane Sight via scrolls is slim if it doesn't spend additional money to increase its caster level.Actually an excellent point for the dragon. From Spellcraft:
20 + spell level: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
Considering that the effects of dominate are in plain view (bunch of dudes obeying the caster's orders), then you always get the spellcraft check. No action required, and no chance of failure for the dragon's skill level. The dominated minions are automatically identified.
Or possibly that guy is just the boss, or possibly that guy is just smart, etc.
Well, no, that's what he'd probably assume on a failed check, but provided that the quote from Spellcraft's rules is accurate, it seems pretty clear that the dragon could do this. It's stupid, because it allows you to bypass the Sense Motive rules, and therefore probably is against RAI, but if you can see the people being dominated, you clearly see the effects of the spell (even if, because you can't make the Sense Motive check, you don't understand the implications of the effects; RAW, Spellcraft doesn't require that).
I'm pretty skeptical that seeing a dominated person counts as seeing or detecting the spell in effect. Without some physical manifestation, it should follow the same rules as trying to spellcraft a stilled, silent spell, which is to say, ridiculously hard if not impossible.
@Lo77o:
I like the approach of your adept more than JaronK’s adept. Getting more ways to be stealthy and more spells is good. And most importantly: he gets by without putting his group at a disadvantage!
Still, I’d doubt that this build will always win vs the dragon:
- Your adept has no spot skill and thus likely will not notice a hidden dragon (even true seeing does not help vs hide). Likewise, he has no search skill. So how does the adept “search” the cave? And in at most 6 rounds (as provided by the ring of vanishing)?
- The adept lacks the high movement speed and flying ability of the monk. Thus, he’ll climb (if he makes it at all) to the icy cave lair of the dragon – and without any move silently skill. The ring of vanishing only lasts at most 6 rounds – during which the adept will likely have difficulty reaching the cave with just his 30ft move through difficult access/climbing area. The dragon’s keen hearing will notice your climbing adept approaching from afar (your adept’s move silently skill is
- The moment your adept casts ghost sounds and detect magic, the dragon due to its spellcraft and listening will know an opponent spellcaster comes closer and can pinpoint him with a listen check (except in case the ring of vanishing is activated prior to casting). Hidden magical traps will not be revealed, since you need line of sight for detect magic. Also any – more likely – mundane traps will not be spotted by the adept, while the unseen servant will not really trigger most trapdoors designed for big threats vs the dragon and such. Still, I like the unseen-servant-as-scout-idea.
- The ready action can only be used during combat, not before combat has started. So once the dragon surprises your character and/or wins initiative, the boots will be no help (as I guess is likely, its initiative mod beats yours by a big margin). It is therefore likely, that the dragon will charge/move, snatch, grapple, kill the adept (the boots will not help out of the grapple imo due to the move activation). In case that the dragon remains hidden for a while, the ring of vanishing effect will go away. As soon as that happens, the dragon with listen skill can pinpoint the adept fumbling around the cave (move silently +2) easily. So the surprise round likely goes to the dragon as well.
- Now, the best thing for last…the Lahm finger darts. Well…provided the adept somehow gets a shot (more likely with a group outside the dragon’s lair), this is a powerful spell to use and can score a win thanks to arcane mastery feat and the belt of battle for double impact. And it’s a great idea to combine it with the strongheart vest (btw a monk could with UMD and a wand plus the soulmeld trick also use it). Still, in a world where such an easy dragon-defeating spell exists, you can bet that many dragons have cheap items in their hoard that will counter this (say, a minor globe of invulnerability item or some such). But definitely the best adept idea so far.
What are you arguing? To what ends are you making that argument?
Jaronk claims that his adept somehow blends perfectly in the background while his minions and zombies automatically draw aggro from any monsters MMO style for unphatomable reasons (that dude has a book and a wooden staff! He's clearly a mighty archmage!). I just present the several ways on how the enemy can see the adept is clearly the target to take down as he's the one pulling the strings of all the group and is the key link to take down.
but the spell doesn't have an Effect line and so that isn't actually an effect that can be observed.Can't "charm/dominate" effects be observed via Sense Motive? Why would a spell not identify another spell, if it's its function? ???
There's no spell under discussion here, it's Spellcraft (a skill).but the spell doesn't have an Effect line and so that isn't actually an effect that can be observed.Can't "charm/dominate" effects be observed via Sense Motive? Why would a spell not identify another spell, if it's its function? ???
Ah, I see.There's no spell under discussion here, it's Spellcraft (a skill).but the spell doesn't have an Effect line and so that isn't actually an effect that can be observed.Can't "charm/dominate" effects be observed via Sense Motive? Why would a spell not identify another spell, if it's its function? ???
There are no observable effects for Charm/Dominate, so Spellcraft can't identify them specifically. It can be used, in conjunction with Arcane Sight or Detect Magic, to determine there's an Enchantment spell of level X-Y on a target, but not identify the spell itself unless its effects are observed.
- Where is the butterfly sword from and why did you not need to spend a proficiency feat on it?OA, free proficiency with it. Way the Rules are written, you could do something silly like TWF & Snap Kick while subbing the sword into each and every attack (it uses your more favorable number of attacks per round).
- You used partially charged wands! (and nobody minded…). Sniff…at long last…(*brushes away tear of pride*) ;)A. I'm less attached to presenting my Monk as fighting the idiots here than you are.
- Blinking will not make the monk fly (because whenever he’s back on the material plane, he’ll drop again)Blink calls out you only fall at half the speed and is nice enough to throw in a reminder that ethereal creatures can fly. Pretty sure you can fly, after all 50% of the time you are moving up, and 50% of the time you lose your upward momentum and float. Given these Blinks happen at plot rate; if attacked 30 times in a round you could have blinked in and out 30~60 times, if you stop moving in a wall in a given round you blinked once and remain ethereal until you move out. It's feasible and more logical than how Blink works to begin with.
- With power lunge, you provoke an AoO from your opponent that you cannot tumble away. The dragon likely has combat reflexes and can bite/snatch/grapple your monk before he even gets within reach. I’d not take power lunge (battle jump/shock trooper is enough).You cannot AOO people with Total Concealment, which the Monk has in every situation where direct sunlight isn't there to muck things up (like being in an ice covered dragon lair).
- I see no way your character can avoid the dragon attacking first/gaining the surprise round since your monk has no spot ranks.The Monk isn't dedicated towards dragonslaying and instead relies on the fact He always has Total Concealment preventing everyone else from spotting him even if it means being a night owl to do so. Blindsense poses a challenge, but then again what are the chances you would stumble into a dragon's lair without ever knowing a dragon lived in the region? Also without Hide ranks it's 1d20-8 vs 1d20+3. And frankly, forget Spot, drop Power Lunge for Lifesense if you really really really need super sight.
- Where did you get track as a bonus feat from? As far as I can see you took the overwhelming assault ACF for level 1 and 2. But for the 6th level?Broken OneCoV, 6th sub, lose bonus feat for Track, this sub has Survival as a class skill and you don't get the 6th level ability from the UA Monk Variants unless you meet the prerequisites. Since Bullrush/Overrun sucks, I wasn't going to waste four skill points in dancing.
- Probably combining our build ideas to use battle jump/shock trooper with my unarmed-damage-augmenting effects would end in a monk at 12th level doing about 300 dmg or more per round (killing the dragon in just one round).Why would I combine with yours? As mentioned if that build picked up Lifedrinker (DMG, specific weapons) which it can afford (and more) with a lv12 WBL limit, and Snap Kick as it's 12th level feat. Without any further augmentation such as more BAB into Power Attack or Str changes it deals 254* damage on average and the dragon has 241 HP. Mine does the job and does it without focusing on a certain monster, or even focusing entirely on combat.
So the monk is using a surprise round only exception to broaden his options to react to the dragon which is already acting, because the surprise round is over and gone? I'm still wondering how the monk is charging as a standard action, he's not doing it that way.A. If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. means you can charge in a Surprise Round (you are denied your Move Action).
What are you arguing? To what ends are you making that argument?
Jaronk claims that his adept somehow blends perfectly in the background while his minions and zombies automatically draw aggro from any monsters MMO style for unphatomable reasons (that dude has a book and a wooden staff! He's clearly a mighty archmage!). I just present the several ways on how the enemy can see the adept is clearly the target to take down as he's the one pulling the strings of all the group and is the key link to take down.
PS @JaronK: Please accept that your army tactics will not work... the dragon is able to find the adept easily. He cannot bluff, he cannot hide, he cannot disguise well enough for the dragon not to notice him. And at teh very latest the moment the first web or scorching ray is out, the dragon will know. And that single attack will not equal the counterattack that the dragon does.
PS @JaronK: Please accept that your army tactics will not work... the dragon is able to find the adept easily. He cannot bluff, he cannot hide, he cannot disguise well enough for the dragon not to notice him. And at teh very latest the moment the first web or scorching ray is out, the dragon will know. And that single attack will not equal the counterattack that the dragon does.
As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.Given a dragon not vulnerable to fire, though, I'd say the Adept would be a nuisance at best. The Warblade could probably match or exceed the damage output of those scorching rays, and the Fighter might also be able to.
For example, if his dominated minions are a Monk, a Rogue, a Warblade, and a Fighter, are you saying an Adept is clearly a bigger threat than all of them if he shoots a single ray?Impossible; adepts are way underpowered compared to even the worst built monk, as Giacomo has proven.
As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.
Or maybe it gives us an insight as to where spellcasters (even NPCs) should be in his mind.As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.
And what if there's a Swordsage or Warmage among the group? What if that Rogue is having fun with Alchemist's Fire? What if that Fighter was archery focused?
By saying the Adept is automatically the priority target, we're saying Adepts are far more of a threat than anything else there. And that kind of defeats the purpose here...
JaronK
while the unseen servant will not really trigger most trapdoors designed for big threats vs the dragon and such. Still, I like the unseen-servant-as-scout-idea.It can drag something like 50 lbs, which is heavier than most halfling-sized PCs. So give it a log (or a scarecrow, which is what I actually do when I use this trick).
As a white dragon, I'd have to say yes, personally, the guy with the fire spells is priority to neutralize. The rest will be hampered more by my defenses at that level, and dealing with them can be delayed. Also, they may take longer to destroy.
And what if there's a Swordsage or Warmage among the group? What if that Rogue is having fun with Alchemist's Fire? What if that Fighter was archery focused?
By saying the Adept is automatically the priority target, we're saying Adepts are far more of a threat than anything else there. And that kind of defeats the purpose here...
JaronK
I will never understand these threads. A monk can be incredible when you factor in party-supplied support buffs and tactics. The key is the number of attacks a monk can accumulate, and if optimized correctly, how much damage those attacks deal. Who gives a flying fuck about one on one duels?I don't know, but somehow we keep getting back to the point where people saying that the Monk is a better class than the Adept because the dragon doesn't use tactics to counter the Monk's abilities while it can easily counter the Adept's (nevermind that the Dragon doesn't *need* to use tactics to kill a lone monk). Something like that, anyway. It's like I've said, I don't really know why they're arguing anymore.
I will never understand these threads. A monk can be incredible when you factor in party-supplied support buffs and tactics. The key is the number of attacks a monk can accumulate, and if optimized correctly, how much damage those attacks deal. Who gives a flying fuck about one on one duels?The problem is that the monk is basically ENTIRELY reliant on party buffs and items. It's the same problem with the fighter, but to a larger degree.
The blink does not grant fly. The spell doesn't mention it, and when you fall half of the time, you cannot really move up (whenever the monk is in the material plane he falls and does not float).Note ~ ethereal creatures can't fly either, they can just move in any direction. So yeah, it don't say you can fly, it does say ethereal creatures (which are are one 1/2 the time) can move in any direction. 1/2 the time total freedom, 1/2 the time subject to gravity. Oh what can end this debate? Idk, but jumping while material sounds corny and Blink's swap rate being timed in which ever way is favorable to the character sure points to "Find a rules quote to prove it otherwise I'm going to dick up like the other 99% of the people in this thread so bite me".
Total concealment does not negate listen for pinpointing,I'm not sure where you are going with Listen, you need to beat the opposed Move Silently check by 20 to pin-point a creature (my monk has +24 for avg DC 54) and it still maintains Full-Concealment anyway. You do know the dragon has Blindsense which automatically does the same exact thing right?
nor does lifesense allow you to pinpoint a hidden opponent as far as I understand the feat.Which is none, the description says "You see the light that all living creatures emit." and just what do you think the Spot DC of a HUGE GLOWING DRAGON is?
snakeman830 already pointed out the hp damage from level lossYeah, my bad. Since I'm still to lazy to actually increase the level of the example, I guess I'll factor the +3 BAB gained, which in turn is +3 more to PA, which is +6 as THF and +18 after multipliers and +36 total using Snap Kick (vs counting on lifedrinker for 20). Really, the more effort I put into detailing the level 12 version, the more powerful it's going to be over me tacking two items onto the level 9 character. I just don't care to update the build.
Then, the lifedrinker is a specific weapon and I thus do not think it can be combined easily with a monk weapon and/or the other enhancements that you already assumed in your build (like valorous).Why are you even on the side of the Monk? You're just so horrible at it, go join the Adapt team and drag them down.
Is the butterfly sword a light weapon?It's One Handed, thus can be THF. Valorous & Battle Jump both double your charge damage (making it an x3 for a total modifier, see stacking multipliers on why your math is wrong btw). Thus the 1d6 base damage becomes 3d6.
For example, if his dominated minions are a Monk, a Rogue, a Warblade, and a Fighter, are you saying an Adept is clearly a bigger threat than all of them if he shoots a single ray?If I were the Dragon and I seen a dominated Warblade, I'd pop a debuff on him. It is now in his best interest to IHS away what is the single most effect that is preventing him from kicking ass. Dominate. Sucks to be the Adapt...
I'm arguing for arguing sake. How could you have not realized that by now? I'm not for Monk is better than the Adapt or vice versa but I always thought using stuff better than you (pokemon/dominated/diplomacy) creatures doesn't do a damn thing to prove your worth. Plus like any spellcaster vs debate, the people on the spellcaster's side tend to be idiots with their ideas.I will never understand these threads. A monk can be incredible when you factor in party-supplied support buffs and tactics. The key is the number of attacks a monk can accumulate, and if optimized correctly, how much damage those attacks deal. Who gives a flying fuck about one on one duels?I don't know, but somehow we keep getting back to the point where people saying that the Monk is a better class than the Adept because the dragon doesn't use tactics to counter the Monk's abilities while it can easily counter the Adept's (nevermind that the Dragon doesn't *need* to use tactics to kill a lone monk). Something like that, anyway. It's like I've said, I don't really know why they're arguing anymore.
My point is that this is not even a problem to begin with. The fact that it's perceived as a problem is a symptom of the artificial environment in which most C.O. is performed. That is to say that a lot of builds try to cover as many possible scenarios by themselves as possible. Maybe it's because I DM more often than I get to play, but I have long since become jaded against the idea that every character in the party needs to be some kind of rockstar one-man-band. I find things go much more interestingly if players have synergistic tactics. I should clarify that buzzword "synergistic", though.I will never understand these threads. A monk can be incredible when you factor in party-supplied support buffs and tactics. The key is the number of attacks a monk can accumulate, and if optimized correctly, how much damage those attacks deal. Who gives a flying fuck about one on one duels?The problem is that the monk is basically ENTIRELY reliant on party buffs and items. It's the same problem with the fighter, but to a larger degree.
So, if we're going to bash monks, I'd rather see people tell me how a monk fails to integrate with party tactics.The only role I can see them as is basically a more versatile Fighter. Whereas the Fighter gets a dozen generic feats and half of which are crap simply because there isn't that many decent Fighter Bonus feats. The Monk picks up Total-Concealment (technically better than superior invisibility), Blink, Unarmed Attack's superior damage and number of attacks shenanigans, enhanced movement, enough bonuses feats to specialize in a combat form while still picking up other noncombat useful feats, and more skill points. Not only can he deal huge amounts of damage though charging (the ONLY role the Barbarian does) for combat, like the Fighter's so called area of focus, but he can operate as a scout. Not a skillmonkey scout, but a scout who traded those extra skill points for survivability.
I'm arguing for arguing sake. How could you have not realized that by now? I'm not for Monk is better than the Adapt or vice versa but I always thought using stuff better than you (pokemon/dominated/diplomacy) creatures doesn't do a damn thing to prove your worth. Plus like any spellcaster vs debate, the people on the spellcaster's side tend to be idiots.I will never understand these threads. A monk can be incredible when you factor in party-supplied support buffs and tactics. The key is the number of attacks a monk can accumulate, and if optimized correctly, how much damage those attacks deal. Who gives a flying fuck about one on one duels?I don't know, but somehow we keep getting back to the point where people saying that the Monk is a better class than the Adept because the dragon doesn't use tactics to counter the Monk's abilities while it can easily counter the Adept's (nevermind that the Dragon doesn't *need* to use tactics to kill a lone monk). Something like that, anyway. It's like I've said, I don't really know why they're arguing anymore.
Think about it.And what is said about the Monk?
- We've had Web as an I win button despite in all likely hood the dragon is all but incapable of failing his save and strength checks against it.
- We've had Scorching Ray, ignoring the possibilities of missing despite Cover (via Web) & Soft Cover (via undead army) which as rules state should form some better form of cover and shooting into melee as an I win button. Not to mention the range being so tiny the dragon can still fly over and eat him anyway. Oh and it only deals 12d6+50% (or 63) on all three successful hits meaning it takes four castings and twelve attack rolls to kill it. Plus you know, it could burn that uber I win Web away when you use it...
- We had pick the most powerful creature in the DMG, then say I'm awesome for picking it on my team when in fact you still fail at life and suck goats for money.
- If the pokemon number one thing wasn't bad enough. They +1ed it to Dominating other PC-leveled people. Which still falls short of just Diplomacy'ing up a posse and still falls under I am so incompetent I am literally dependent on some one else making me look useful.
That claim isn't far out in the left field there.
- His 1/day DDoor was bashed because the Adapt can buy an ITEM. Also what's with the Monk owning items, though this is about Class Features.
- You can't charge in a Surprise round of falling on people because I never read what Charging or Battle Jump's rules are.
- The dragon can strafe around in mid air dealing 7d6 damage ever 1d4 rounds praying the Monk has no form of retaliation enough though a form of flight is mandatory for meleers and very plausible for a level 12 character to obtain. Not to mention without Polymorphing into something with wings, the Adapt is SOL too. Right... Pokemon.
- And Crush. Not only does the dragon NEVER use it on the Adapt (it's too busy staring at the wall), but it uses it for auto win on Monks. Even though it only works if the subject is three or more size categories smaller than the Dragon, which is Huge, which means Medium is two sizes in difference, which means it can't use Crush to beat a Monk anyway. ...And even if the dragon were gargantuan or Monk/Adapt were Small sized at least the Monk sports a 50% chance it misses him (Blink) prior to DDooring out or the same ITEMS the Adapt must use for escaping after he got flattened.
Of these 4 instances, the Monk can either be the center of a combo that sets it up for greatness OR it can do some specific shtick that sets up one other character for one relatively specific combo each time. It lacks the feats and features necessary to go beyond an extremely narrow role, and if it tries to, anyway, then it's liable to fail at even doing this one thing. That's why it's listed at Tier 5.My point is that this is not even a problem to begin with. The fact that it's perceived as a problem is a symptom of the artificial environment in which most C.O. is performed. That is to say that a lot of builds try to cover as many possible scenarios by themselves as possible. Maybe it's because I DM more often than I get to play, but I have long since become jaded against the idea that every character in the party needs to be some kind of rockstar one-man-band. I find things go much more interestingly if players have synergistic tactics. I should clarify that buzzword "synergistic", though.I will never understand these threads. A monk can be incredible when you factor in party-supplied support buffs and tactics. The key is the number of attacks a monk can accumulate, and if optimized correctly, how much damage those attacks deal. Who gives a flying fuck about one on one duels?The problem is that the monk is basically ENTIRELY reliant on party buffs and items. It's the same problem with the fighter, but to a larger degree.
I do not mean:
1. The party has a very optimized specialist for each area of commonly encountered problems. Together the party usually has someone who can save the day single-handedly. This type of party usually sucks because then the DM feels obliged to dish out "spotlight" encounters for each player to highlight their individual specialties.
2. The party has some awesome combo that sets up one character for greatness every time.
What I do mean is:
1. The party contains several "awesome" combos that set up various characters for greatness in combat.
2. The party is specialized, but not so completely that the builds are incapable of acting outside their role. Bonus points if others can aid eachother with their specialties.
So, if we're going to bash monks, I'd rather see people tell me how a monk fails to integrate with party tactics.
Of these 4 instances, the Monk can either be the center of a combo that sets it up for greatness OR it can do some specific shtick that sets up one other character for one relatively specific combo each time. It lacks the feats and features necessary to go beyond an extremely narrow role, and if it tries to, anyway, then it's liable to fail at even doing this one thing. That's why it's listed at Tier 5.Actually that was a trick question on my part, because it's fairly obvious that a monk can integrate with several party combos. I'm sorry you're too jaded to see that. Here, let me just toss up a few. I'm sure I could go on for some time.
XCodes: for single target takedowns, Crush is actually decent, because in a single attack it causes a pin. And when you've got a huge creature with boosted strength doing it, it's almost an auto success. Definitely awesome if you have a minion doing that... and other minions who can handle other things (since that takes the crusher out of the fight).Re-reading Crush, I have to agree, it's actually not horrible. Even though it uses grapple mechanics later on, initially it doesn't, so even with FoM you're going to be wasting actions to escape if you fail that Reflex save. In other words, you have to be able to teleport in order to make the Crush action seem wasted (and unless you have unlimited teleportation, it's wasting your teleportation ability).
JaronK
I like how the monk is assumed to be able to be a similarly effective tripper to a fighter, similarly consistent with evasion as a rogue, accurate enough to use power attack, and/or tough enough to survive getting close on purpose. This with 3/4 BAB, a mediocre HD, and too much MAD to heavily invest in Str, Dex, or Con.Meh, you can dump wisdom and even wear armor on a monk tripper, and not lose out on anything worth crying about. Especially if you can add Shou Disciple levels later. Strength-based monks are interesting.
The next round, we're well set up for the full on pain train of a hasted monk.
I like how the monk is assumed to be able to be a similarly effective tripper to a fighter, similarly consistent with evasion as a rogue, accurate enough to use power attack, and/or tough enough to survive getting close on purpose. This with 3/4 BAB, a mediocre HD, and too much MAD to heavily invest in Str, Dex, or Con.This. If we're still talking 12th level, you will probably have, at most, a Strength score of 22 (including a +4 item). That's a base modifier of +6, and then you get another +5 from Enlarge Person and a +4 from Improved Trip for +15. White Dragon is Huge (+8) with a +8 Strength Mod (+8) and has 4 legs (+4). That's a +20 mod with no magic whatsoever.
Re-reading Crush, I have to agree, it's actually not horrible. Even though it uses grapple mechanics later on, initially it doesn't, so even with FoM you're going to be wasting actions to escape if you fail that Reflex save. In other words, you have to be able to teleport in order to make the Crush action seem wasted (and unless you have unlimited teleportation, it's wasting your teleportation ability).
That said, if the dragon is on it's own and going against a Party, Crush is a really bad idea. You're spending an action to do minimal damage to one or two targets (they're going to spread out just because of your breath weapon), while the rest of the party is free to beat the crap out of you.
Regardless of whether or not the dragon makes it's reflex save, it can't leave the web without spending a full round to move.Thanks for agreeing with me. So the Adapt Spends a Standard Action to Web the dragon, them either the Move Action to get into range, or to move away. The Dragon makes his save avoiding being pinned, beats teh Str DC by more than enough to move out of it (there by resuming his normal movement speed) and is now standing next to the Adapt whom without Tumble is looking at an AoO for fleeing, or if he decides to Web him self, suicide.
The dragon's touch AC, WITH cover, is 12.The Scorching Ray tactic relies on zombies.
The "pokemon" thing, as you called it, is a pretty explicit class feature of the everyone, it's called Diplomacy. But the Adapt gets other people to do everything he can't to cus I like him.I know.
No, his 1/day DDoor was bashed because it barely does shit. More than the Adapt, but I refuse to acknowledge that.Yeah.
Saying that you get a other people to do the things you can't speaks measures of your capabilities, and at the very least speaks more to the strength of the Finger Darts feat than the strength of the Adapt.I know right.
The Adept's effective range is 55', compared to the dragon's 50'. Therefore, the Adept doesn't have to catch the Dragon, he just has to wait for it to get in range.Geez, see what I mean? The Dragon whom can rape the Adapt with his melee, stop his spellcasting with his mouth, is going to stand at the maximum range of his breath weapon.
Eh, SorO's just arguing for arguing's sake (his own words). In other words, just trolling. No sense debating with that.For the same reason X-Codes over looks everything and you continue to quote Gia on his poor monk.
Why is it that all the Monk supporters are trolling (SorO), just arguing against non existant arguments (Oslo), or, well, whatever Giacomo's doing?
Troll threads attract trolls?And yet you're here. :p
And yet you're here.So? ???
But it's Adept. Not Adapt. That bothers me as much as "Factorum" used to.I've seen JaronK also make such mistakes (sometimes). Why won't you correct him as well? :smirk
But it's Adept. Not Adapt. That bothers me as much as "Factorum" used to.I've seen JaronK also make such mistakes (sometimes). Why won't you correct him as well? :smirk
But it's Adept. Not Adapt. That bothers me as much as "Factorum" used to.I've seen JaronK also make such mistakes (sometimes). Why won't you correct him as well? :smirk
The discussion has already moved on – but you did not seem to have noticed.Ah, trying the Bush strategy, are we?
Then @JaronK/Halinn: the adept hoping to escape notice in his zoo of zombies that exactly follow HIM and look to HIM for where to go will make the dragon wonder…If the standing order is “follow me and attack if XY happens”, then they will as mindless automatons do exactly that, in exactly the distance that the adept commanded. (even the dragon’s intelligent treasure +1 sword will see who is in charge of the group and who follows whom – the zombies will always stop just after when the adept pauses, and resume walking when the adept does, for instance).
Likewise, the adept’s animal pets will focus their attention on him (ever see people with trained dogs? They constantly communicate through gestures and commands etc. with the animals to have them do what they want them to do. They will not go on “ignore me except if I command you” because an animal cannot understand this kind of subtlety. And no cyst-dominated adept dummies are going to change that (and as outlined by quite few already, bringing more minions with game effects into the picture that the monk could also do, the comparison loses significance).
To sum up: The animate dead spell as well as trained animals are exactly the BEST way NOT to remain unnoticed for this tactics. This has been pointed out repeatedly – so please at long last see: the animated dead are virtually a dead end of the expert. ;) (apart from all the group-damaging elements that I already outlined and which you so far failed to argue against).
Aren't zombies already dead? ???
Dear JaronK, X-Codes, Halinn, Minxster, Lycanthromancer, and all others still clinging to that imo irrational monk aversion:
The discussion has already moved on – but you did not seem to have noticed.
The adept can do it with the combination of
- the corrupt spell Lahm’s finger darts (doing 4d4 DEX damage) from BovD
- the item belt of battle (for taking another action for a second spell casting of 4d4 DEX damage) from MiC
- the feats soulmeld (strongheart vest), bonus essentia (soulmeld) from MoI
- the race Azurin (human, incarnate) from MoI which combined with the MoI feats reduces the finger and ability damage of the corrupt spell to 0 (otherwise it would be an unsustainable tactics).
- the feats night haunt and arcane mastery (from CA) to safely defeat the dragon’s spell resistance.
Method: cast darts, activate belt, cast another darts spell for 8d4 DEX damage.
Effort: items for 12,000 gp (belt of battle), 2 spell slots, 4 feats (and four extra sources beyond core)
- Giacomo
Good god, people! Why are you all acting as if Giacomo is wildly flailing about like the Wizard of Oz in order to distract people from the fact that he was a sad little man in a cheap suit?...Is that a hypothetical question?
The Carnexes only need to be kept safe for the sake of the current encounter. The majority of their cost can be re-couped by salvaging the bands from a dead Carnex, so they're ridiculously cheap.Aren't zombies already dead? ???
No, they're undead. There's a big difference!
But Giacomo made the claim a while ago that it was too expensive to deal with Animate Dead because your undead are so fragile and would die all the time. This is of course silly... undead are actually very durable, due to having high HPs (especially if you make them right) and tons of immunities, as well as many easy healing options. But Giacomo stuck with this claim and never retracted it, despite the fact that every Monk we've seen is less durable than any of the undead (except the Carnexes, which are indeed fragile and must be kept safe).
JaronK
I implicitly stated that tripping was not something you would use in all circumstances (certainly not when it would be stupid to attempt, such as against a larger creature). The stated circumstance that I DID provide was against an NPC humanoid, orc to be exact, which you know, one also encounters frequently in D&D. Tripping is most effective against medium-sized enemy casters as it prevents them from getting away and casting. Unless you want to get into action boosting tactics and/or swift teleportation yadda yadda.I like how the monk is assumed to be able to be a similarly effective tripper to a fighter, similarly consistent with evasion as a rogue, accurate enough to use power attack, and/or tough enough to survive getting close on purpose. This with 3/4 BAB, a mediocre HD, and too much MAD to heavily invest in Str, Dex, or Con.This. If we're still talking 12th level, you will probably have, at most, a Strength score of 22 (including a +4 item). That's a base modifier of +6, and then you get another +5 from Enlarge Person and a +4 from Improved Trip for +15. White Dragon is Huge (+8) with a +8 Strength Mod (+8) and has 4 legs (+4). That's a +20 mod with no magic whatsoever.
Sure, that's just one monster with a CR of 12, and a very strong one at that. Going through the MM...
Abyssal Greater Basilisk: +15 vs. Trip
Displacer Beast Pack Lord: +20 vs. Trip
11-headed Pyro-/Cryohydra: +18 vs. Trip (same modifier as the Hydras 2 CRs lower)
Kolyarut: +2 vs. Trip (is a caster, however, so tripping him is just going to keep him from running away easily)
Leonal: +8 vs. Trip (but has Polymorph at-will, so could easily transform into something with a significantly higher value here)
The Carnexes only need to be kept safe for the sake of the current encounter. The majority of their cost can be re-couped by salvaging the bands from a dead Carnex, so they're ridiculously cheap.
The Carnexes only need to be kept safe for the sake of the current encounter. The majority of their cost can be re-couped by salvaging the bands from a dead Carnex, so they're ridiculously cheap.
They're pretty vulnerable in general though, so I'd actually prefer to use Black Sand for the primary out of combat healing, and only have the Carnexes pop out when needed. Luckily they're not too big and don't breathe, so you can keep them in extradimensional space if you have any.
Theilaxu: The question of this thread isn't "can you make a Monk that's useful in a party" but rather "how does a Monk's contribution to the party compare to an Adept's contribution?" But yes, Monks can be useful in a party. Of course, so can Commoners, but that's a whole other thing.
JaronK
Where does the greatsword come in?I just picked a random 2H weapon that the monk might carry whenever it wasn't possible to make use of flurry of blows and power attack was a viable option. Upon review, quarter staff (wielded as a 2H weapon) is probably more legal. Same idea, though. It's not something the monk needs much, but it covers a corner case.
Hell, anything can be useful in the right circumstances and with a little imagination. That doesn't make it a resource you can take seriously in general. I found a modified silver raven figurine that records and plays back voices and managed to employ it successfully in a fight, once. Fired it up inside an obscuring mist playing me giving generic commands and battle noises, and snuck away to get into diving charge position on a bruiser that still thought I was in there. Doesn't make a silver raven figurine a combat tool.What I just read in your statement: "Suppose X is combat tool if it can always be found in set C, a subset of B, with fractional size >=Z compared to set B. Then, if Y in set A, and A has size Q, then Y = X iff Q >= Z." Obviously in your example A has size Q << Z. Substituting the word "combat tool for 'effective'", I think you're implying that monks are not effective because it has yet to be shown that they are successful in a sufficient number of combat instances. That is to say that monks lie within set A, which has size Q, and Q <= Z. You haven't really defined, however, what size Z would suffice nor have you defined what constitutes success.
You are, I thought it was Adapt, and Factotum. The only one I've deliberately misspelled is the crewsader (that I recall). But it's a pun on it's awesome help the party out strikes and stances.But it's Adept. Not Adapt. That bothers me as much as "Factorum" used to.I've seen JaronK also make such mistakes (sometimes). Why won't you correct him as well? :smirk
My guess is he thinks that SorO goes on w/ "Adapt" deliberately like Sunic continued the legacy of the "Factorum" when he was still here ( :( ) but I may be wrong.
the monk ACF invisible fist for (greater) invisibility for one round from EoEIt's not Greater Invisibility, It's Blink (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm), the Total Concealment is in a Web Enhancement for Champions of Valor. And it is freaking AWESOME and the only reason to ever consider taking levels in Monk past the 2nd level.
Assuming a +4 Con item, the Monk also has a mere 84 HP on average, and no AC or miss chance.Whoa there. No AC? It gets a +1~+5 class bonus to AC, Dex to AC, Wis to AC, and can still UMD up a Wand or ask for Greater Mage Armor and even make use of Animated Shields later on. Not to mention, it's the only class to get a an uber wtf Total-Concealment ability and it gets Blink and miss chances FAR out weigh AC so much not even I can come up with a proper analogy and these miss chances interfere with spells. Maybe like comparing an ant to Mount Rushmore, or like a grain of salt to the Salt Flats in Utah, or everyone's opinions vs your Ego viewed in your prospective, or maybe a proton to Sol (our sun).
Where does the greatsword come in?I just picked a random 2H weapon that the monk might carry whenever it wasn't possible to make use of flurry of blows and power attack was a viable option. Upon review, quarter staff (wielded as a 2H weapon) is probably more legal. Same idea, though. It's not something the monk needs much, but it covers a corner case.Hell, anything can be useful in the right circumstances and with a little imagination. That doesn't make it a resource you can take seriously in general. I found a modified silver raven figurine that records and plays back voices and managed to employ it successfully in a fight, once. Fired it up inside an obscuring mist playing me giving generic commands and battle noises, and snuck away to get into diving charge position on a bruiser that still thought I was in there. Doesn't make a silver raven figurine a combat tool.What I just read in your statement: "Suppose X is combat tool if it can always be found in set C, a subset of B, with fractional size >=Z compared to set B. Then, if Y in set A, and A has size Q, then Y = X iff Q >= Z." Obviously in your example A has size Q << Z. Substituting the word "combat tool for 'effective'", I think you're implying that monks are not effective because it has yet to be shown that they are successful in a sufficient number of combat instances. That is to say that monks lie within set A, which has size Q, and Q <= Z. You haven't really defined, however, what size Z would suffice nor have you defined what constitutes success.
If one wished to transform this thread from a mostly unenlightening discussion to one with more substance, I think this could be accomplished by establishing more clear guidelines. Particularly a set Z should be specified and a success criteria needs to be established. Once these are provided, it should be a simple matter of demonstrating a build which satisfies the criteria. If we find that both Adept and Monk satisfy the criteria, then you could expand Z or make the success criteria more difficult until one is established to be superior. The latter exercise is, in my opinion, unnecessary once you demonstrate, for a reasonable Z, that the class can succeed.
In my previous post, I implied that set Z was: R = ratio of weighted damage to average monster health at CR = level in two cases: max AC and average AC. Success criteria was undefined in my post, but with such a simple definition for Z, you could make it something like, R must be > 50%. In that case, my build would fail. If you set the success criteria to R > 25%, it would pass all of set Z, with conditions. I highly doubt under these more rigorous definitions of success that a commoner could be lumped in the same category as a monk. One could surprise me, though.
Where does the greatsword come in?I just picked a random 2H weapon that the monk might carry whenever it wasn't possible to make use of flurry of blows and power attack was a viable option. Upon review, quarter staff (wielded as a 2H weapon) is probably more legal. Same idea, though. It's not something the monk needs much, but it covers a corner case.Hell, anything can be useful in the right circumstances and with a little imagination. That doesn't make it a resource you can take seriously in general. I found a modified silver raven figurine that records and plays back voices and managed to employ it successfully in a fight, once. Fired it up inside an obscuring mist playing me giving generic commands and battle noises, and snuck away to get into diving charge position on a bruiser that still thought I was in there. Doesn't make a silver raven figurine a combat tool.What I just read in your statement: "Suppose X is combat tool if it can always be found in set C, a subset of B, with fractional size >=Z compared to set B. Then, if Y in set A, and A has size Q, then Y = X iff Q >= Z." Obviously in your example A has size Q << Z. Substituting the word "combat tool for 'effective'", I think you're implying that monks are not effective because it has yet to be shown that they are successful in a sufficient number of combat instances. That is to say that monks lie within set A, which has size Q, and Q <= Z. You haven't really defined, however, what size Z would suffice nor have you defined what constitutes success.
If one wished to transform this thread from a mostly unenlightening discussion to one with more substance, I think this could be accomplished by establishing more clear guidelines. Particularly a set Z should be specified and a success criteria needs to be established. Once these are provided, it should be a simple matter of demonstrating a build which satisfies the criteria. If we find that both Adept and Monk satisfy the criteria, then you could expand Z or make the success criteria more difficult until one is established to be superior. The latter exercise is, in my opinion, unnecessary once you demonstrate, for a reasonable Z, that the class can succeed.
In my previous post, I implied that set Z was: R = ratio of weighted damage to average monster health at CR = level in two cases: max AC and average AC. Success criteria was undefined in my post, but with such a simple definition for Z, you could make it something like, R must be > 50%. In that case, my build would fail. If you set the success criteria to R > 25%, it would pass all of set Z, with conditions. I highly doubt under these more rigorous definitions of success that a commoner could be lumped in the same category as a monk. One could surprise me, though.
It's completely TO, but commoners can draw an infinite number of chickens from their spell component pouches, and if you can think of an encounter that CANT be resolved by infinite chickens, you are doing it wrong.
Personally, I think an R of 25% is much too low. That means 3 encounters per level you contribute? That seems pretty underwhelming. Even if we were to say that was acceptable the whole point is that R could be higher for an Adept build and it would still pass.
Combine sudden leap with jump skill optimization and you can move around as a swift action. IIRC there is a feat somewhere that lets you ignore the running jump part DC increase.PHBII Leap of the Heavens.
Whoa there. No AC? It gets a +1~+5 class bonus to AC, Dex to AC, Wis to AC, and can still UMD up a Wand or ask for Greater Mage Armor and even make use of Animated Shields later on. Not to mention, it's the only class to get a an uber wtf Total-Concealment ability and it gets Blink and miss chances FAR out weigh AC so much not even I can come up with a proper analogy and these miss chances interfere with spells. Maybe like comparing an ant to Mount Rushmore, or like a grain of salt to the Salt Flats in Utah, or everyone's opinions vs your Ego viewed in your prospective, or maybe a proton to Sol (our sun).shadow blend is so unbelievably awesome it's mind-boggling. honestly, this defensive capability pushes the monk in the low t4 region in my opinion. however, invisible fist's blink option is not so hot, since you get a 20% miss-chance yourself. or is there a way around that?
shadow blend is so unbelievably awesome it's mind-boggling. honestly, this defensive capability pushes the monk in the low t4 region in my opinion.It is pretty damn powerful.
however, invisible fist's blink option is not so hot, since you get a 20% miss-chance yourself. or is there a way around that?Ethereal Reaver is a +2 Longsword, Complete Psionic, Specific Weapons (not SRD material, cough costs 40k cough) can freely attack Ethereal/Material creatures as the blade it's self exists in both planes. Either use it, rip the ability, Morph the weapon into a Monk weapon, or heck play an Elf and pick up Weapon Focus(longsword) & Whirling Steel StrikeECS to Furry with longswords.
btw, do these two add up to a total miss chance of 60%? (50% for total concealment + 20% for the etherealness -> 60% total)Like Cover it has a stacking clause.
Whoa there. No AC? It gets a +1~+5 class bonus to AC, Dex to AC, Wis to AC, and can still UMD up a Wand or ask for Greater Mage Armor and even make use of Animated Shields later on. Not to mention, it's the only class to get a an uber wtf Total-Concealment ability and it gets Blink and miss chances FAR out weigh AC so much not even I can come up with a proper analogy and these miss chances interfere with spells. Maybe like comparing an ant to Mount Rushmore, or like a grain of salt to the Salt Flats in Utah, or everyone's opinions vs your Ego viewed in your prospective, or maybe a proton to Sol (our sun).Actually, Monks lose their AC bonus if they use Animated shields. Let me google the relevant passage:
Animated
Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.
Given they are rolling a 50% chance for not knowing where you are and a 50% (or 20% with the ability to see ethereal) chance for an affect they can see but are simply unable to hit as you phase out they should stack for a 75%/60% chance respectively. Assuming they are even attacking the space you are in which pretty much requires stuff on par with Blindsense to do.as far as i know you can't have any more than total concealment, which makes sense. ;-)
On another note, SorO, you've put forth some excellent insights. The Shadow blend seems so amazing that I might have to play a Monk in the future.invisible fist + dark moon disciple are incredibly awesome (from a monk's perspective).
Actually, Monks lose their AC bonus if they use Animated shields. Let me google the relevant passage:My bad.
Edit: There is also Ethereal reaver in MIC. +3 enchantment, gives See invisibility and works like a Ghost touch weapon. Not sure if this is a direct update though.Can't be. MiC's is a +3 enhancement that gives Ghost Touch and See Invisible (who the hell would buy it?), and in Complete Psionic Ethereal Reaver is a named specific weapon that affect Ethereal Creatures.
In hindsight, yeah Concealment probably does cap at Total-Concealment. And I see how you keep using 60% too, since Blink is only worth 20% outside of what you can or cannot see.Given they are rolling a 50% chance for not knowing where you are and a 50% (or 20% with the ability to see ethereal) chance for an affect they can see but are simply unable to hit as you phase out they should stack for a 75%/60% chance respectively. Assuming they are even attacking the space you are in which pretty much requires stuff on par with Blindsense to do.as far as i know you can't have any more than total concealment, which makes sense. ;-)
thus, it's either 50% or 60%. probably 60% since concealment and etherealness are two different sources. :)
Edit: There is also Ethereal reaver in MIC. +3 enchantment, gives See invisibility and works like a Ghost touch weapon. Not sure if this is a direct update though.Can't be. MiC's is a +3 enhancement that gives Ghost Touch and See Invisible (who the hell would buy it?), and in Complete Psionic Ethereal Reaver is a named specific weapon that affect Ethereal Creatures.
MiC's is a +3 enhancement that gives Ghost Touch and See Invisible (who the hell would buy it?), and in Complete Psionic Ethereal Reaver is a named specific weapon that affect Ethereal Creatures.i'm pretty sure that this must be an unerrata'd mistake. see invis + ghost touch cannot be a +3 weapon enhancement, that's ridiculous. as is, even the enhancement's name doesn't make any sense. it should probably bestow the same properties the specific ethereal reaver from cpsi has.
Interestingly, the command was NOT "follow me." It was stay within 30' of me. There's a difference. They can wander within that range. This prevents exactly what you're talking about. They also do not "look to HIM." They just do what they're told.
Heck, when the dragon appears, the dominated minions (who can be given intelligent orders like "act as though I'm part of your adventuring party") will attack, triggering the Zombies to attack... making said minions look like the leader. Heck, if you just follow behind one of your dominated minions, it looks like both you and the zombies are just following him.
This is party of the basic technique of being a minion master. You don't keep shouting commands. You exercise just enough control to keep your minions on task, without being the obvious leader. Don't assume that just because you don't know how to do it no one does.
Monks don't have this route towards minions. This is an Adept ability.
And yes, if I get a Commoner minion (why not? Easy to get) I can have him giving the commands for the animals. Now does the dragon eat the Commoner, by your logic? Man, that was easy!
You should try playing a minion master sometime. It's fun to do, and learning not to be the primary target is a big part of it. You don't seem to think it's possible, but it is, and it's something you should learn to do.
But I notice you've still failed to deliver on proving that your Monk is more survivable than a Zombie, having claimed Zombies die all the time. Does this mean you admit your Monks can't survive more than a few fights? Admit this, or prove it wrong. Or you could do the obvious thing: retract that false statement (that Zombies require significant expense because they die all the time).
JaronK
miss chances of blink and total concealment combined, meaning 75% miss chance of foesthere is nothing more than total concealment. if you add the ethereal part of blink (20% miss chance) to the total concealment of shadow blend you end up with a 60% miss chance. nevertheless, 60% miss chance all day long is just awesome.
I'll ask you the following: When these mindless undead are told to "stay within 30' of you" - how will they be able to fulfill this order when they do not regularly look at you to make sure that they stay within this 30'? What will they do when you stop walking? The answer imo is: they will continue walking until they reach 30' distance to you. A hiding dragon observing what kind of monsters enter his lair (or, due to his superior listening skills, notices them approaching and has a look at them from afar while hiding) cannot help but notice this odd pattern.
If you really want to make that stipulation less restrictive, you might consider a dip into warblade to pick up Sudden Leap. Combine sudden leap with jump skill optimization and you can move around as a swift action. IIRC there is a feat somewhere that lets you ignore the running jump part DC increase.If you want to go the direction of Hood, why take monk levels at all? Other classes can optimise jump checks just as well. But have other bonuses, like maneuvers, skill points or regular bonus feats.
And I would suggest to you to consider the considerable problems and occasional drawbacks with using this tactics.
At this point a related question: do you as a DM ever have problems with a group of people with each player running around a dozen npcs aside from his pc? What kind of adventures are that? How is the roleplaying side of this going? How are combats rolling out- are they boring dice orgies or great fun?
I'd really like to know, because in my experience the games that were more fun were those where everyone only played his character and the DM all the rest. But maybe you have some hints how this can be done? (seriously, this is a question without irony from my side).
@LordBlades - interesting. Are there others with similar experiences? I remember from my experience that casters in the group with minions and summoned creatures took up significantly more time vis-a-vis casters and non-casters in the group acting just for themselves. And over time this creates in imbalance in attention time of the game that not all may like.Rather like a monk demanding his party spend tons of buffs on him so he can perform adequately?
Nah. That's totally different, for reasons that I'm sure Giacomo & Co will gleefully reveal.@LordBlades - interesting. Are there others with similar experiences? I remember from my experience that casters in the group with minions and summoned creatures took up significantly more time vis-a-vis casters and non-casters in the group acting just for themselves. And over time this creates in imbalance in attention time of the game that not all may like.Rather like a monk demanding his party spend tons of buffs on him so he can perform adequately?
@LordBlades - interesting. Are there others with similar experiences? I remember from my experience that casters in the group with minions and summoned creatures took up significantly more time vis-a-vis casters and non-casters in the group acting just for themselves. And over time this creates in imbalance in attention time of the game that not all may like.
- Giacomo
Nah. That's totally different, for reasons that I'm sure Giacomo & Co will gleefully reveal.@LordBlades - interesting. Are there others with similar experiences? I remember from my experience that casters in the group with minions and summoned creatures took up significantly more time vis-a-vis casters and non-casters in the group acting just for themselves. And over time this creates in imbalance in attention time of the game that not all may like.Rather like a monk demanding his party spend tons of buffs on him so he can perform adequately?
Somehow.
Tangent: Was it Giacomo of GitP who suggested that the Monk was not dependent on other party members for his buffs because the Monk could take Leadership and get minions?Quite possibly, although similar or even identical arguments are not unheard of.
Tangent: Was it Giacomo of GitP who suggested that the Monk was not dependent on other party members for his buffs because the Monk could take Leadership and get minions?
"This basically gets you everything you need. For the higher spell levels, either get
- other casters casting (via npc spellcasters, cohort spellcasters or team member spellcasters)." - Giacomo ver. GitP
Infected, I find you way of denoting the real Giacomo quite amusing. I assume you noticed the difference in posting style, such as "Giacomo" being very rude and offensive?As I've said before, I find this quite unnecessary. Far as I know, we all operate under a nom de plume and quite a few of us have one that is used by someone else too. Whether or not the Sir Giacomo we have here is the one, who used to write to GitP forums is irrelevant.
As I've said before, I find this quite unnecessary. Far as I know, we all operate under a nom de plume and quite a few of us have one that is used by someone else too. Whether or not the Sir Giacomo we have here is the one, who used to write to GitP forums is irrelevant.Simo Hayha says that there is no kill like overkill.
Well, this certainly is an interesting turn of events.I could remind you to watch the F-word around here.
Infected, I find you way of denoting the real Giacomo quite amusing. I assume you noticed the difference in posting style, such as "Giacomo" being very rude and offensive?
Then again, we have a much less stringent code of conduct here, so it's possible that Roland St. Jude was the only think keeping Giacomo ver. GitP polite, and that he was always a raging douche-fag at heart.
So is a Monk having minions acceptable or not, "Giacomo"?
So is a Monk having minions acceptable or not, "Giacomo"?Häyhä, by the way.As I've said before, I find this quite unnecessary. Far as I know, we all operate under a nom de plume and quite a few of us have one that is used by someone else too. Whether or not the Sir Giacomo we have here is the one, who used to write to GitP forums is irrelevant.Simo Hayha says that there is no kill like overkill.
Also, regarding any minion availability beyond the animated dead and the familiar: see also the monk's diplomacy skill.
I can't make my browser put in umlauts.One of those countries then. It's so weird when I go back to uni and whenever I use their computers I need to readjust to not using the Finnish keyboard. Strange indeed.
So Black Tentacles would also be a non-fun spell to cast, I assume.
So Black Tentacles would also be a non-fun spell to cast, I assume.
What's that got to do with anything?
What's that got to do with anything?Well, it involves a ton of grapple checks per round, damage rolls, reduces movement speed, and involves the grapple rules, which I imagine would slow down combat much like ordering a bunch of minions to go mob someone would, albeit to a lesser degree.
The feat specifically states it "...grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below..." and the prerequisites do not restrict class.
The feat specifically states it "...grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below..." and the prerequisites do not restrict class.Cheerio for both you and weenog, who tried his best. I am going to push my luck further and wonder what spells does this thing grant?
The feat specifically states it "...grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below..." and the prerequisites do not restrict class.Cheerio for both you and weenog, who tried his best. I am going to push my luck further and wonder what spells does this thing grant?
The mother cyst grants you access toLooks to me that anyone who has the feat has these spells on their spell list(s).
a selection of cyst-related spells listed below (and described in
Chapter 4 of this book). You cast these spells like any other spell
you can cast, once you host a mother cyst (if you are a caster who
prepares spells, you can prepare all necrotic cyst spells without
referring to a spellbook, as if you had the Spell Mastery feat for
each such spell).
The feat specifically states it "...grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below..." and the prerequisites do not restrict class.Cheerio for both you and weenog, who tried his best. I am going to push my luck further and wonder what spells does this thing grant?
Jaron, I think you got pretty epicly swordsage'd there.
Jaron, I think you got pretty epicly swordsage'd there.
By the way, a properly optimised dragon could take that feat as well :P
Then you could be entering a lair full of random guys who it has crushed in the past.
Well, this certainly is an interesting turn of events.to add to this "debate" wether it's the real giacomo or not, you mentioned that the real giacomo was german. well, there is evidence which would support that this board's giacomo is from a german speaking country:
Infected, I find you way of denoting the real Giacomo quite amusing. I assume you noticed the difference in posting style, such as "Giacomo" being very rude and offensive?
Then again, we have a much less stringent code of conduct here, so it's possible that Roland St. Jude was the only think keeping Giacomo ver. GitP polite, and that he was always a raging douche-fag at heart.
@zugchef - you are correct, the miss chance of total concealment (from dark moon disciple or invisibility ACFs) and blink combined are 60%, not 75% (since part of the blink miss chance is concealment).i'm currently member on some english speaking and some german speaking boards, and leaving the "s" in "zugschef" is a typical reaction by a lot of german speaking posters who feel themselves compelled to correct an alleged mistake in my username (which of course can happen unintentionally, as it can happen when you quote something with a spelling mistake). ;-)
I almost spat my coffee on my laptop when I read Necrotic empowerment.
Indeed. The bonuses to stats alone are excellent, but for a melee guy the temporary hitpoints are a great frosting on the cake. On another note, I called a friend who has the book and he checked, they are tagged as Cleric spells (Wizard too), so a Cleric could emulate it with Miracle...I almost spat my coffee on my laptop when I read Necrotic empowerment.
No kidding. If you're a divine caster it might be worth the feat just to DMM persist it daily and never cast any other cyst spells, ever.
Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.The description of the feat was just posted here and as snakeman830 just said, they are added to your list. If they are on your list, you can cast them.
- Giacomo
Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.There's that homebrewed spell compelling me to place the palm of my hand upon my face again.
- Giacomo
Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.There's that homebrewed spell compelling me to place the palm of my hand upon my face again.
- Giacomo
Your friend is correct, Tshern. The cyst spells are on the cleric and wizard/sorcerer spell lists and thus not available for the adept.There's that homebrewed spell compelling me to place the palm of my hand upon my face again.
- Giacomo
There's also a homebrewed spell that's compelling him to outright ignore parts of/complete posts.
Hm. This is odd. The BovD has a separate list for the corrupt spells to illustrate that they can be taken by all spellcasters. Meanwhile, the LM lists the cyst spells only as cleric and wizard/sorcerer spells (assasins, for instance, do not have it on their list). The feat is a necaessary prereq for clerics and wizard/sorcerers to cast them, that is all.
Well, whatever, can certainly be ruled adept-friendly.
However, I kindly ask you all to cool down here. Mistakes and misinterpretations have been made on both sides of the argument in this thread.
Thank you
- Giacomo
Adepts, assassins, bards, etc. can meet the prerequisites of the Mother Cyst feat. The Mother Cyst feat specifically states the spells are added to your class list. Specific overrides general, right?
Good Adepts have access to all the Sanctified spells, which adds quite a lot.I thought non-evil casters could cast those? I'm pretty sure the book specifically says that non-evil clerics can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells, as strange as that might sound...
Mother Cyst doesn't actually have any alignment restrictions, nor do Adepts have Cleric like restrictions about alignment casting, so a good or neutral Adept can do everything mentioned here if they want (they'd just have to use their undead entirely for good, only dominate evil people in service to good, etc).Good clerics can give people cancer. Durkon managed to give Elan a colon tumor, and Pelor the BURNING HATE causes skin cancer all the time.
The feat specifically says they're added to your class list, right? So it actually isn't even contradicting the fact that they're already listed on the cleric/wizard class lists... They're on the wiz/clr/sorc class lists even without the feat, but those classes can't cast them without the feat. They're not on anyone else's lists without the feat. However, anyone who takes the feat adds them to their class spell list, and can cast them. There is no contradiction anywhere. It's a bit strange, but not contradictory.Aye, but at least Luminous armor has to be cast on a good creature because of the target entry, which says 'One good creature'. Those without the stipulation work just fine.Good Adepts have access to all the Sanctified spells, which adds quite a lot.I thought non-evil casters could cast those? I'm pretty sure the book specifically says that non-evil clerics can spontaneously cast Sanctified spells, as strange as that might sound...
I don't know why it bothers to list them as sorcerer/wizard and cleric spells, since the norm is you can't cast them at all, and the feat lets you cast them if you're a caster of any sort.
You could even take it as a warlock, but you wouldn't actually gain any benefit from it. That's odd.
Clearly. Even though they weren't even published, yet. :PI don't know why it bothers to list them as sorcerer/wizard and cleric spells, since the norm is you can't cast them at all, and the feat lets you cast them if you're a caster of any sort.
You could even take it as a warlock, but you wouldn't actually gain any benefit from it. That's odd.
Quite clearly because WotC wanted StP Erudites to be able to cast the spells for 4 extra PP without having the feat.
Clearly.
Well, I imagine the Who Can Cast It line does make SOME sense, since it works nicely with items.It does have significant impact on other aspects of the game, but not who can actually cast the spells, since the required focus for all ten spells is provided by the same feat that adds them to your list. The tags mean that Wizards can emulate Necrotic Empowerment with Wish (assuming they didn't ban Necromancy) and Clerics can emulate it with Miracle, for example. It means any Wiz/Sorc/Cleric not barred from casting those spells (such as Good aligned Cleric or specialist that banned Necromancy) can use scrolls, wands, and staffs without needing UMD.
Would the Decicive Strike Acf double the damage from Psionic Fist/weapon etc? What about Stances you might be in?
A 2 level dip for that might be worth while for certain situations.
Good Adepts have access to all the Sanctified spells, which adds quite a lot. Mother Cyst doesn't actually have any alignment restrictions, nor do Adepts have Cleric like restrictions about alignment casting, so a good or neutral Adept can do everything mentioned here if they want (they'd just have to use their undead entirely for good, only dominate evil people in service to good, etc). And before you say it's impossible to have a good aligned caster using undead, I recommend you read the Bone Knight PrC, which is designed primarily for Lawful Good necromantic types (it's a Cleric or Paladin PrC).
JaronK
Good Adepts have access to all the Sanctified spells, which adds quite a lot. Mother Cyst doesn't actually have any alignment restrictions, nor do Adepts have Cleric like restrictions about alignment casting, so a good or neutral Adept can do everything mentioned here if they want (they'd just have to use their undead entirely for good, only dominate evil people in service to good, etc). And before you say it's impossible to have a good aligned caster using undead, I recommend you read the Bone Knight PrC, which is designed primarily for Lawful Good necromantic types (it's a Cleric or Paladin PrC).Good RAW point, maybe even RAI. Still...the cyst spells and animate dead have the evil descriptor, while sanctified and corrupt spells are described as good and evil respectively. So, a DM may rule using them pushes the character into the direction of good and evil. The adept is not the same as a prestige class specifically designed to fill the roleplaying gap of "using evil or good ends".
JaronK
But OK, let's assume for this argument that all adepts have all these spells available, irrespective of their alignment.
- Giacomo
And while that prestige class was mentioned, it was in the context of showing that there is precedent for using 'evil' spells while remaining good.
This only works for Conjuration spells though.Indeed. And that's the point of entering a prestige class. Geting special out of the norm abilities.
This only works for Conjuration spells though.Indeed. And that's the point of entering a prestige class. Geting special out of the norm abilities.
Except it doesn't. The class just lets you use a custom, weaker, animating effect that doesn't have the [Evil] tag (which animate dead has). Meanwhile Fiendish Codex is pretty clear that yes casting [Evil] spells will make you evil, and no, casting [Good] spells doesn't counteract it in any way.
Except it doesn't. The class just lets you use a custom, weaker, animating effect that doesn't have the [Evil] tag (which animate dead has). Meanwhile Fiendish Codex is pretty clear that yes casting [Evil] spells will make you evil, and no, casting [Good] spells doesn't counteract it in any way.
The point I was making was that using undead for good while being good is perfectly valid. The Bone Knight shows that.
The other point being, nothing in RAW says it's impossible for a Good Adept to cast [Evil] spells. He's not a Cleric. That's a Cleric restriction.
JaronK
In the begginning of the magic Chapter of BoED (from where it's sanctified magic) it says that sanctified spells are only for those who utterly devote themselves to good. You're claiming that casting corrupting [Evil] spells is devoting yourself to good now? You're dooming your soul to one of the infernal planes and everything by doing it.
In the begginning of the magic Chapter of BoED (from where it's sanctified magic) it says that sanctified spells are only for those who utterly devote themselves to good. You're claiming that casting corrupting [Evil] spells is utterly devoting yourself to good now? You're dooming your soul to one of the infernal planes and everything by doing it. Exalted material explicitly forbids you from comiting Evil deeds to keep it.Then answer me this, how many [Evil] spells do you have to cast before your alignment is downgraded from Good to Neutral, and from Neutral to Evil. I want an exact number and a book/page location.
In the begginning of the magic Chapter of BoED (from where it's sanctified magic) it says that sanctified spells are only for those who utterly devote themselves to good. You're claiming that casting corrupting [Evil] spells is utterly devoting yourself to good now? You're dooming your soul to one of the infernal planes and everything by doing it. Exalted material explicitly forbids you from comiting Evil deeds to keep it.
For example, here's how the various Tiers might deal with a specific set of situations (...)
Situation 1: ABlackWhite Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.
Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.
Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.
In the begginning of the magic Chapter of BoED (from where it's sanctified magic) it says that sanctified spells are only for those who utterly devote themselves to good. You're claiming that casting corrupting [Evil] spells is utterly devoting yourself to good now? You're dooming your soul to one of the infernal planes and everything by doing it. Exalted material explicitly forbids you from comiting Evil deeds to keep it.Then answer me this, how many [Evil] spells do you have to cast before your alignment is downgraded from Good to Neutral, and from Neutral to Evil. I want an exact number and a book/page location.
Time Requirements: Changing alignment usually takes time.
Changes of heart are rarely sudden (although they can be). What
you want to avoid is a player changing her character’s alignment to
evil to use an evil artifact properly and then changing it right back
when she’s done. Alignments aren’t garments you can take off and
put on casually. Require an interval of at least a week of game time
between alignment changes.
In the begginning of the magic Chapter of BoED (from where it's sanctified magic) it says that sanctified spells are only for those who utterly devote themselves to good. You're claiming that casting corrupting [Evil] spells is devoting yourself to good now? You're dooming your soul to one of the infernal planes and everything by doing it.
Um, no. I'm claiming you can be good while casting [Evil] spells. If nothing else, see Hellbred. And consider that a good Cleric/Bone Knight in Eberron (which is where that PrC comes from) can happily cast Animate Dead and use those minions to protect the innocent civilians of Karnath. Note that Sanctified spells are not at all the same as [Good] spells, as they're something of a higher category (much like Exalted is a category above Good).
JaronK
WHAT’S EVIL?(Emphasis mine)
Some would point out that a fireball spell is likely to cause
undue suffering, and it could be used to kill a group of
orphans. Does that make fireball an evil spell?
Fireball, by itself, simply creates a blast of fire. Fire can be
used for evil purposes, but it is not inherently evil. Contrasted
with a spell such as shriveling, whose only purpose
and only possible use is to wither the flesh of another
living creature in a painful and debilitating fashion, it
becomes easier to see why shriveling is an evil spell.
The judgment cannot be based solely on effect.
Your campaign could, for example, have a spell
called vitality leech that calls upon a demon that
drains Strength points from a target for a short
time. The spell’s effect is only slightly different
from ray of enfeeblement, but the approach and execution
are very different. Vitality leech is an evil
spell, while ray of enfeeblement is not. Although the
ultimate game effect is the same, the character in
the game world faced with the two spells
undoubtedly regards them differently. Tapping
into evil power is an evil act in and of itself, no
matter what the effects or the reason for using
the power might be.
In the begginning of the magic Chapter of BoED (from where it's sanctified magic) it says that sanctified spells are only for those who utterly devote themselves to good. You're claiming that casting corrupting [Evil] spells is devoting yourself to good now? You're dooming your soul to one of the infernal planes and everything by doing it.
Um, no. I'm claiming you can be good while casting [Evil] spells. If nothing else, see Hellbred. And consider that a good Cleric/Bone Knight in Eberron (which is where that PrC comes from) can happily cast Animate Dead and use those minions to protect the innocent civilians of Karnath. Note that Sanctified spells are not at all the same as [Good] spells, as they're something of a higher category (much like Exalted is a category above Good).
JaronK: BoVD p.77WHAT’S EVIL?(Emphasis mine)
Some would point out that a fireball spell is likely to cause
undue suffering, and it could be used to kill a group of
orphans. Does that make fireball an evil spell?
Fireball, by itself, simply creates a blast of fire. Fire can be
used for evil purposes, but it is not inherently evil. Contrasted
with a spell such as shriveling, whose only purpose
and only possible use is to wither the flesh of another
living creature in a painful and debilitating fashion, it
becomes easier to see why shriveling is an evil spell.
The judgment cannot be based solely on effect.
Your campaign could, for example, have a spell
called vitality leech that calls upon a demon that
drains Strength points from a target for a short
time. The spell’s effect is only slightly different
from ray of enfeeblement, but the approach and execution
are very different. Vitality leech is an evil
spell, while ray of enfeeblement is not. Although the
ultimate game effect is the same, the character in
the game world faced with the two spells
undoubtedly regards them differently. Tapping
into evil power is an evil act in and of itself, no
matter what the effects or the reason for using
the power might be.
The last sentence says it all.. So casting [evil] animate dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm) is always an evil act no matter what. So if one depends on evil spells then perhaps one's alignment should reflect that as well.
Situation 3 is easily done, create a wight, make it kill a chicken, make all the farmer joes bring in their animals for being turned into wights, then use an army of wights to kill the orcs.Funny thing, this isn't even "evil." Command Undead and Enervation both lack the Evil descriptors. If you want to do it earlier than that, then you can use the Death Devotion feat, which is granted through prayer to any number of Neutral deities (so you can snag it as an LG Paladin of Kelemvor).
...
Could you show me again where it said casting evil spells is tapping into evil powers?
Unless your a cleric who is granted his spells by an evil power, or your getting your spells from the lower planes, i don't see how this is relevant.
ANIMATING THE DEAD OR(emphasis mine)
CREATING UNDEAD
Unliving corpses—corrupt mockeries of life and purity—
are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most
heinous crimes against the world that a character can
commit. Even if they are commanded to do something
good, undead invariably bring negative energy into the
world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.
Many communities keep their graveyards behind high
walls or even post guards to keep grave robbers out. Graverobbing
is often a lucrative practice, since necromancers pay
good coin for raw materials. Of course, battlefields are also
popular places for grave-robbers—or for necromancers
themselves—to seek corpses.
CASTING EVIL SPELLS
Evil spells may create undead, inflict undue suffering, harm
another’s soul, or produce any of a slew of similar effects.
Sometimes, a nonevil spellcaster can get away with casting
a few evil spells, as long as he or she does not do so for an
evil purpose. But the path of evil magic leads quickly to corruption
and destruction. Spells with corruption costs (see
Corrupt Magic in Chapter 6) are so evil that they take a
physical and spiritual toll on the caster.
...
Could you show me again where it said casting evil spells is tapping into evil powers?
Unless your a cleric who is granted his spells by an evil power, or your getting your spells from the lower planes, i don't see how this is relevant.
Well, that part is within the a paragraph that first talks about how evil spells compare to normal spells. So tapping into evil powers is about evil spells, imo. What else could it mean?
There is another quote which may be more descriptive:: BoVD p.8ANIMATING THE DEAD OR(emphasis mine)
CREATING UNDEAD
Unliving corpses—corrupt mockeries of life and purity—
are inherently evil. Creating them is one of the most
heinous crimes against the world that a character can
commit. Even if they are commanded to do something
good, undead invariably bring negative energy into the
world, which makes it a darker and more evil place.
Many communities keep their graveyards behind high
walls or even post guards to keep grave robbers out. Graverobbing
is often a lucrative practice, since necromancers pay
good coin for raw materials. Of course, battlefields are also
popular places for grave-robbers—or for necromancers
themselves—to seek corpses.
CASTING EVIL SPELLS
Evil spells may create undead, inflict undue suffering, harm
another’s soul, or produce any of a slew of similar effects.
Sometimes, a nonevil spellcaster can get away with casting
a few evil spells, as long as he or she does not do so for an
evil purpose. But the path of evil magic leads quickly to corruption
and destruction. Spells with corruption costs (see
Corrupt Magic in Chapter 6) are so evil that they take a
physical and spiritual toll on the caster.
Animating the dead is one of the most heinous crimes against the world - inherently evil.
And non-evil character can get away with casting a few evil spells for good purposes. Note only a few!
If a character solely relies on evil spells (e.g. animate dead) then the character's alignment should reflect evil.
By the BoVD logic for why animating is evil, so should Inflict Light Wounds be. That's adding negative energy to the world as well.And Chill Touch. Same thing with simply Rebuking (which many Neutral clerics do).
...
By this definition, as a variant rule, the following
spells from the Player’s Handbook should
be considered evil and have the evil descriptor:
contagion, deathwatch, desecrate, doom, and trap
the soul.
(emphasis mine)The Wight comes back to life of it's own accord. You just cast a simple level-draining effect, and then forces beyond your power create the Wight.
Animating the dead is one of the most heinous crimes against the world - inherently evil.
And non-evil character can get away with casting a few evil spells for good purposes. Note only a few!
If a character solely relies on evil spells (e.g. animate dead) then the character's alignment should reflect evil.
Situation 3 is easily done, create a wight, make it kill a chicken, make all the farmer joes bring in their animals for being turned into wights, then use an army of wights to kill the orcs.
Situation 2, send in some of your minions under you command. Make them research how to find the leader while you are staying safe outside the city, once your minions have found the leader. You can arrange for a meeting, you just need one meeting, and the rest can be done through the sending spell. Alternatively, you could go about this invisible.
Situation 3, well both adepts already handles this better than both monk builds.
Situation 3: I do not think that this will work, either. How will the adept create the wight in the first place? And then, wights can only spawn humanoids - no chicken army here, I'm afraid. Finally, the army of orcs can be expected to have clerics with them. They could rebuke or turn the fairly low-level wights.Creatures killed by negative levels may possibly turn into the creature that killed them, assuming that creature has that ability. If not, they turn into a wight. So instead you'd have to ambush a small group of orcs, taking one or two out with a negative level. The next night, come back with Command Undead, take control of the wight, and lead it to ambush more orcs.
I think the best part about this thread is that we only have one more page before the lock.
I think the best part about this thread is that we only have one more page before the lock.There is no way a person could agree more with something than I am agreeing with this right now.
The fun part is when Giacomo or some other thrice-bedamned fool starts up a new one.I think the best part about this thread is that we only have one more page before the lock.There is no way a person could agree more with something than I am agreeing with this right now.
And the explicit statement that it inevitably happens. We don't know how long it takes, which is a bit of a stumbling block, but it seems pretty safe to say that a character who regularly makes use of Animate Dead qualifies. The only exception is if you're deliberately defining things to reach the conclusion you want, in which case I'm pretty sure dying means you are restored to full hit points and gain a +20 bonus on all d20 rolls.
I think the best part about this thread is that we only have one more page before the lock.
I think the best part about this thread is that we only have one more page before the lock.
I think the best part about this thread is that we only have one more page before the lock.
To be honest, I'm kind of impressed with the troll. The troll is obvious, no one could be this persistently ignorant, and yet he manages to be just interesting enough to keep folks engaged for 50 pages. He's good at this.
I think the best part about this thread is that we only have one more page before the lock.
To be honest, I'm kind of impressed with the troll. The troll is obvious, no one could be this persistently ignorant, and yet he manages to be just interesting enough to keep folks engaged for 50 pages. He's good at this.
A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.Under Wight:
Create Spawn (Su)So a Wight that slays humanoids with regular damage or level loss makes that humanoid into a wight in 1d4 rounds. But:
Any humanoid slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
Energy Drain (Su)A wight that slays a non-humanoid through only level loss (such as instructing it to hit the chicken with Subdual damage would do), will raise it the next day as the wight as per the ruling from level loss.
Living creatures hit by a wight’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 14 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the wight gains 5 temporary hit points.
And the explicit statement that it inevitably happens. We don't know how long it takes, which is a bit of a stumbling block, but it seems pretty safe to say that a character who regularly makes use of Animate Dead qualifies. The only exception is if you're deliberately defining things to reach the conclusion you want, in which case I'm pretty sure dying means you are restored to full hit points and gain a +20 bonus on all d20 rolls.
"But mr. Strawman, won't it seem silly when I am only arguing points that I made up?"
"Of course it won't, because that means you are winning the argument, and people who win arguments never seem silly."
"But what if I'm not winning arguments that the other posters are engaging me in?"
"There's a simple solution to that problem. Just claim that you have won and ignore all posts that say you haven't."
I'm on the Adept's side here, you have to understand, but I'm even more on the side of intellectual honesty. We don't need to bend the rules or interpret them creatively here, guys. It's a spellcaster versus the monk. If our argument really hinges on "Well, the rules don't say when I become evil", we are fucking failing. And if it doesn't, just concede it and move on, and crush the monk with better, sounder arguments.Who said the adept can't be evil, anyway?... How did we get on this tangent? :pout
And the explicit statement that it inevitably happens. We don't know how long it takes, which is a bit of a stumbling block, but it seems pretty safe to say that a character who regularly makes use of Animate Dead qualifies. The only exception is if you're deliberately defining things to reach the conclusion you want, in which case I'm pretty sure dying means you are restored to full hit points and gain a +20 bonus on all d20 rolls.My character will eventually become evil just like he will eventually finish that Ghost Savage Progression. Promise.
Hell, I'd say a character that tries to game the alignment system to gain maximum power (committing Evil acts in the process) becomes evil, because morality actually has a lot of catch-22s like that.
And we know that an Adept that regularly casts [Evil] spells is regularly performing evil acts, because the rules say that.
What's wrong with the adept being evil again? Evil is cool and sexy.Dark Helmet: So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
What's wrong with the adept being evil again? Evil is cool and sexy.
Who said the adept can't be evil, anyway?... How did we get on this tangent? :pout
To be honest, I'm kind of impressed with the troll. The troll is obvious, no one could be this persistently ignorant, and yet he manages to be just interesting enough to keep folks engaged for 50 pages. He's good at this.
Remarkably good. I'm falling for it over and over.
Situation 2: Huh? Well I'm just sending my minions in there for the rebel leaders, I don't need them to trust my low level minions, I need them to trust me. And honestly, why wouldn't they? I would be ready to meet them anywhere, with my minions long away from me if they wanted to, and then I could tell them that I am here to help them against the Tyrant, and I bring with me an army of undead that I will depart with when they are done fighting. Then I also tell him that I will attempt to aid them through use of a sending spell. If they want me to grab a few of the tyrants guys hostage to prove that I'm loyal to the resistance, I could easily do that, and send them down there dominated.
Situation 3: From the SRD:
Level Loss:A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.Under Wight:Create Spawn (Su)So a Wight that slays humanoids with regular damage or level loss makes that humanoid into a wight in 1d4 rounds. But:
Any humanoid slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.Energy Drain (Su)A wight that slays a non-humanoid through only level loss (such as instructing it to hit the chicken with Subdual damage would do), will raise it the next day as the wight as per the ruling from level loss.
Living creatures hit by a wight’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 14 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the wight gains 5 temporary hit points.
So yeah, we just need one negative level to fire this off, and we will have loads of wights in a weeks time, so many wights that the orcrish army wont be able to rebuke the lot of them.
EDIT: If you need a way to get a wight, Ebberron adepts can add hunger domain (from libris mortis) and get enervation.
Anyway, Giacomo, I'm not discussing that sillyness with you. You have to come up with something better than cry loophole. And Domination doesn't work. You control the first wight through The Necrotic Cyst you implant in it.
(edit: also the DMG clearly distinguishes throughout between player characters/characters -terms used interchangeably and non-player characters).
Highest-Level NPC in the Community for Each Class
Use the following tables to determine the highest-level character in a given class for a given community.
NPC Attitudes
In general, you run an NPC just as a player would run a PC. You take whatever actions the character would take, assuming the action is possible. That's why it's important to determine an NPC's general outlook and characteristics ahead of time if possible, so you know how to play the character properly.
Fleshing out NPCs
...You should strive to make many of the NPCs you use in your game memorable characters whom the PCs will either like or dislike depending on how you play them.
What I've seen is 50 pages of the monk being a punching bag with one guy with his fingers in his ears yelling "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
Condition Summary
If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If certain effects can’t combine, apply the most severe effect.
...
Prone
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Condition Summary
If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If certain effects can’t combine, apply the most severe effect.
...
Prone
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
ShakenGuess no one intimidates NPCs in Giacomo's game either.
A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.
I'm kinda thinking that the adept is really tier 3 or really high tier 4
Dibs on the last post!Nah I'll get it
NOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo.......!Dibs on the last post!Nah I'll get it
We just went over post 50!
"I don't see any GOD up here?"
I'm going to be really miffed if this thread doesn't auto-lock, or if someone posts after me.I'll try not to.
The thread doesn't auto-lock. The mods tend not to bother, either, since we usually have a new thread started before the 51st page comes up.Too late!
That said, PLEASE DON'T start a new topic. This thread will never produce anything productive to anyone ever.
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!!!!!!He's sitting next to me on my couch, wagging his tail.
(edit: also the DMG clearly distinguishes throughout between player characters/characters -terms used interchangeably and non-player characters).: Page 138 of the DMGHighest-Level NPC in the Community for Each Class
Use the following tables to determine the highest-level character in a given class for a given community.: Page 128 of the DMGNPC Attitudes
In general, you run an NPC just as a player would run a PC. You take whatever actions the character would take, assuming the action is possible. That's why it's important to determine an NPC's general outlook and characteristics ahead of time if possible, so you know how to play the character properly.
Fleshing out NPCs
...You should strive to make many of the NPCs you use in your game memorable characters whom the PCs will either like or dislike depending on how you play them.
Much though I hate to prolong this argument, the DMG does no such thing.
How many ways do monks have of starting a wightocalypse, hmm?
But with his massively pitiful Wis (from pumping Cha and Int), he'll have an equally massively pitiful AC to dodge your puny enervation!How many ways do monks have of starting a wightocalypse, hmm?
The monk could be hit by an empowered maximized twinned split rayed enervation.
But only if the monk is a player character.How many ways do monks have of starting a wightocalypse, hmm?
The monk could be hit by an empowered maximized twinned split rayed enervation.
And not if it's not played by Giacomo, since his monks are so very not durable and not impossible to kill.But only if the monk is a player character.How many ways do monks have of starting a wightocalypse, hmm?
The monk could be hit by an empowered maximized twinned split rayed enervation.
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!!!!!!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7hc5CDzmnU