Adept vs monk: the final nail in the coffin

[SorO_Lost]

That doesn't mean Giacomo is any less wrong.

Nope, it doesn't at all.

Actually, if you think about it, I just burned the crap out of him. My first ever mid level Monk was posted a dozen pages ago and could possibly do what his can't. He is the defacto Monk supporter in these boards and had my build and several others to take ideas from. He should be kicking KKK dragon ass and thus have at least some form of point, like at least I could avoid a painful death, to argue with.

But yeah, anyway. Optimization goes a long way into making anything useful.

[veekie]

That doesn't mean Giacomo is any less wrong.

Nope, it doesn't at all.

Actually, if you think about it, I just burned the crap out of him. My first ever mid level Monk was posted a dozen pages ago and could possibly do what his can't. He is the defacto Monk supporter in these boards and had my build and several others to take ideas from. He should be kicking KKK dragon ass and thus have at least some form of point, like at least I could avoid a painful death, to argue with.

But yeah, anyway. Optimization goes a long way into making anything useful.

I think the problem was that hes trying to make the monk something hes not. The monk is primarily a combat class, so you optimize the combat. Optimizing skills and emulating spells doesn't do much more than make you mediocre at those areas compared to a skill focused class or a caster class, AND also makes you weak at your core strength.

[JaronK]

I notice his Monk is considerably less durable than the zombies (fewer HP, no regen, far fewer immunities), so by Gia's own comments the Monk is so fragile that he'll die constantly (since that's what he said about the zombies).  So that's established nicely.

And now my Adept has a nice new Zombie Dragon to fly around.  That'll be fun.

I do have to wonder why we have to fight this dragon.  Shouldn't it be a random set of CR 12 types, as opposed to an encounter specifically designed to counter the zombie hydras?

Also, I suppose the Adept should be pumped up to match the sources Gia is using.  He should probably have an Item Familiar of his own, as well as that Eberron free Domain thing (to match the ACFs).  Not sure what else at this point.  And I'm not sure what Domain he should have... what's an appropriate necromancer domain?  Maybe that one that gives you more undead when used with Animate Dead?

JaronK

[Solo]

I do have to wonder why we have to fight this dragon.  Shouldn't it be a random set of CR 12 types, as opposed to an encounter specifically designed to counter the zombie hydras?

But that wouldn't be fair.

[Lycanthromancer]

I do have to wonder why we have to fight this dragon.  Shouldn't it be a random set of CR 12 types, as opposed to an encounter specifically designed to counter the zombie hydras?

But that wouldn't be fair.

Obviously. Anything that doesn't clearly put the adept at a disadvantage is clearly unfair.

Clearly.

[JaronK]

It does show one of the big advantages of Animate Dead though... if the DM throws something he thinks is a weakness of yours at you (because he's tired of your undead eating everything), you get to animate it.  Then you get that thing as a new advantage.  Hence my Adept now having this awesome dragon to play around with.

JaronK

[oslecamo]

Unless the DM has two brain cells to rub togheter and throws something you can't animate for a change. Since everybody knows vanilla dragons inside and out so they really aren't a challenge unless seriously tweaked. If the adept is geting all those splatbooks, only fair the monsters also get some optimization love.

Bone template for example can be applied to pretty much every living being, whitout any CR increase or loss of significant abilities.

Of course, people will now cry "Ack, what kind of horrible DM would throw you an ecounter you can't just curbstomp and that you can't exploit for extra profit?".

[veekie]

Actually, for more fun, anyone wants to try out the PF Qinggong monk in the same fight?
It'd be fun!

[Lycanthromancer]

Actually, for more fun, anyone wants to try out the PF Qinggong monk in the same fight?
It'd be fun!

Give him rocket fists and we'll talk.

[Solo]

Unless the DM has two brain cells to rub togheter and throws something you can't animate for a change. Since everybody knows vanilla dragons inside and out so they really aren't a challenge unless seriously tweaked. If the adept is geting all those splatbooks, only fair the monsters also get some optimization love.

Bone template for example can be applied to pretty much every living being, whitout any CR increase or loss of significant abilities.

Of course, people will now cry "Ack, what kind of horrible DM would throw you an ecounter you can't just curbstomp and that you can't exploit for extra profit?".

Ozzy, what chance does Giacomo's monk stand against your model of dragon?

[Bauglir]

Assuming it can survive a round (because if there's one thing dragons aren't automatic winners at, it's initiative), a Huge or larger dragon (which we're dealing with here) with even a modicum of sense will just Snatch the poor lone sap attacking it and breath on it every so often (no save) until it dies to death, assuming it can find it. The Adept doesn't have to go it alone and can take measures to reduce being grabbed, so I'm putting my money on the Adept since it at least forces the dragon to move to Plan B.

The monk is going to auto-lose the grapple, basically, because high-strength, huge enemy with obnoxious BAB. Do monks have abundant step yet? If so, the monk can escape by wasting its turn, then get Snatched again. If not, it can rely on magic items that grant short-range teleportation that the Adept already has in addition to its other tactics.

[Shinzen]

Unless the DM has two brain cells to rub togheter and throws something you can't animate for a change. Since everybody knows vanilla dragons inside and out so they really aren't a challenge unless seriously tweaked. If the adept is geting all those splatbooks, only fair the monsters also get some optimization love.

Bone template for example can be applied to pretty much every living being, whitout any CR increase or loss of significant abilities.

Of course, people will now cry "Ack, what kind of horrible DM would throw you an ecounter you can't just curbstomp and that you can't exploit for extra profit?".

Uh, I think a Dragon with Nerveskitter, Entangling Exhalation, and a bunch of other optimized feats counts as "seriously tweaked"

Seriously, what else could I possibly have changed without magic items?

White dragons are also the weakest of them all though, so there wasn't a whole lot to work with. 7d10 damage with the breath weapon would have made a significant difference.

Like I said before though, I could toss together a set of CR 12 encounters both combat and utility if you want. You both might want to rebuild first to being generalists instead of specifically dragon hunters though, and JaronK can include his new smelly and scorched draconic friend.

[SorO_Lost]

The monk is going to auto-lose the grapple, basically, because high-strength, huge enemy with obnoxious BAB. Do monks have abundant step yet? If so, the monk can escape by wasting its turn, then get Snatched again. If not, it can rely on magic items that grant short-range teleportation that the Adept already has in addition to its other tactics.

Blink lets you physically move though walls (and yes other creatures) and a FAQ ruling even gives it a 50% chance to avoid being grappled by the auto-start-a-grapple Black Tentacles. So if a certain someone was smart enough to nab the Blink ACF, Grapple shouldn't be auto win.

What is a Qinggong Monk?

[JaronK]

I actually quite intentionally didn't build as a dragon hunter, so I'd be good to go anyway.  Heck, the dragon was brought up specifically to be a dangerous counter to exactly the kind of Adept I was mentioning, and I stayed with that theme.  I mean let's face it, if I had skeletons they'd all be immune to his breath weapon anyway.

Also, I notice it was mentioned that the Adept used a lot of splat books... I actually didn't.  I used Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis) and Corpse Crafter (same), along with Nimble Bones (also Libris Mortis.  Otherwise... that was just a lot of DMG, really.  I think I even stuck to DMG only magic items.

Giacomo used... well, what all books did he use anyway?  There were a ton in ACFs alone. 

JaronK

[X-Codes]

One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.

In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.

[Shinzen]

One of the things that makes Dragons so dangerous is not only that they're under-CRed for the basic aspects of them (high saves, AC, HD, etc.), but also that they're supposed to be statted out by the DM.

In other words, every True Dragon you fight is an optimized True Dragon.

You have no idea how fun it is making a Great Wyrm a paranoia caster.

Especially evil ones. They'd basically need to to survive that long.

[Infected]

Giacomo used... well, what all books did he use anyway?  There were a ton in ACFs alone. 

JaronK

If anything, then he "proved" that the core Monk skeleton is really underpowered. Else he wouldn't need to switch out 3/4 of it for something else.
Also didn't he say something about options outside of core needing DM-Approval, because they are "Home-brew-territory" ?

[Kajhera]

If you're arguing his monk is notably unpowerful, I'm not sure how him using a lot of ACFs proves anything about the monk's core skeleton.

[weenog]

If you're arguing his monk is notably unpowerful, I'm not sure how him using a lot of ACFs proves anything about the monk's core skeleton.

It may not prove much of anything, but it implies pretty strongly that even he believes the monk's core skeleton is inadequate.  Or maybe he just thinks splatbooks = optimization and is trying to beat everyone else at their own game by reconfiguring the monk beyond recognition.

[SorO_Lost]

If you're arguing his monk is notably unpowerful, I'm not sure how him using a lot of ACFs proves anything about the monk's core skeleton.

Hi Welcome.

If anything, then he "proved" that the core Monk skeleton is really underpowered.

More fail.

I used Libris Mortis

This isn't a Core-Only concept to begin with.

Jaronk's comment about using less books (guess what, it always will since items/feats are the only noncore thing an adapt can have) is being taken way out of parturition.