Author Topic: Tier system for templates  (Read 87839 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #140 on: June 09, 2010, 08:47:38 PM »
Figured this was a better place than the simple QA, what what should a DM do about a freed yellow husk zombie. There is no mention in this template of it being 'lost' while every other template that presumably can be lost does mention what happens.

It seems the DM would have to assign an LA. The CR is +0, so should the post-zombie LA be +0?  +1 seems way too steep for losing EVERYTHING you previously knew...
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sud

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Re: Tier 4 templates
« Reply #141 on: June 17, 2010, 09:20:43 PM »
Also +1 template divine minion is tier one, give wildshape as a level 11 druid.
I think that divine minion is off the chart (depending on the associated deity, of course)

Clarification: Is this the "Mulhorandi divine minion" from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a?

As written, the at-will, unlimited, free-action(!) "wildshape as a level 11 druid" (in metal armor, no less) is limited to a few forms that depend on your deity, right?  None of the forms listed are particularly earth-shattering: lion, brown bear, large scorpion....  The only relevant detail relating to "level 11 druid'' is that it allows for tiny animal forms: cat, hawk, etc.

Also, the LA is +2 for any of the better animal forms.

By itself, it's not all that great: overwhelming at low levels, but a wash by midlevels. 

It becomes ridiculous only when mated with MoMF or some other "now let me change from kitty-cat to Elemental Monolith" capability, right?

just trying to understand...


Prime32

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #142 on: June 17, 2010, 09:30:21 PM »
On top of that it makes you an outsider (possibly with an alignment subtype) which is great for Fiend of Possession. It possibly lets you qualify for Wild feats and use them at will. And let's not forget insanities like Frozen Wild Shape.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 09:33:56 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
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Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Ian Frost

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #143 on: June 17, 2010, 11:09:36 PM »
If I'm not mistaken it also lets you heal as if with a full nights rest, at will, as a free action   :)
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Fast Wild Shape (Su): A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves (divine minions of Set also have a vermin form). The divine minion can use this ability at will, can change form as a free action, and can spend time in animal form indefinitely. They prefer to keep their shapechanging abilities secret so that they can use them to surprise their enemies in combat. Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor.
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Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 12:20:45 AM by Ian Frost »

Nachofan99

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #144 on: August 05, 2010, 02:42:27 PM »
Has anyone mentioned or seen the Abomination Dragonspawn template from Bestiary of Krynn?

For +1 LA you could potentially have:  Barbarian rage, fly speed, burrow speed or 2 extra legs PLUS four of the following (There are more also, but I feel like these are the best of the bunch): SR, +1 Effective Sorcerer level, Blur as an extraordinary ability, +4 to Str/Dex/Con, 2 extra dice on breath weapons, fast heal 3.

Think it is easily potentially tier 2, but on average, tier 3.

There is, however, ye olde poorly thought out clause:  "Feel free to add any mutations desired..."  RAW that catapults it into Tier 0 Wizard Fiat status.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #145 on: August 05, 2010, 03:10:43 PM »
The main issue is that it's irritatingly random - doomwarding helps a bit (since it lets you reroll anything), but otherwise it's just not consistent enough.  Theoretically you could get like +2 or +4 effective sorcerer levels, but the odds are way against it.
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Nachofan99

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #146 on: August 05, 2010, 03:36:48 PM »
How optimized could we make the rolling process?


And yes, getting a mish-mosh of abilities that don't work together at all (like getting an improved claw attack - which then gets REPLACED by a slam attack - or having barbarian rage with effective sorcerer levels) makes it probably around tier 3 most of the time.  Still, it's possible to get +4 effective sorcerer levels so it's worth noting.

dna1

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #147 on: August 05, 2010, 04:56:14 PM »
Just wait to decide what your going to make til after you see what random things you rolled?
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #148 on: September 17, 2010, 03:07:55 PM »
Why is Phrenic Tier 2 and Half-Fey Tier 1?

snakeman830

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #149 on: September 17, 2010, 03:56:21 PM »
Half-Fey is Tier 2 and always has been.  You must be looking at Unseelie Fey
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #150 on: September 17, 2010, 03:58:30 PM »
Ah.  I r teh suk.

I'd put them in Tier 1, personally.  At least en par w/ Mineral Warrior.  Particularly Phrenic: those abilities get auto-augmented to HD/level.

Actually, I take that back...  Would you consider redefining Tier 1?  If I weren't playing a spellcaster, I'd never play a White Dragonspawn.  Nor would I play a Feral Mineral Warrior if I were playing a spellcaster.  Great templates, though, but I can't see them as being used every time they're available.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 04:00:17 PM by jameswilliamogle »

snakeman830

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #151 on: September 17, 2010, 04:22:22 PM »
That too is covered before I define the tiers.  I state that the rankings are all based off of the assumption the template's strengths are being played to.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #152 on: September 17, 2010, 04:29:58 PM »
Well, I guess I'll just go suck on a bag of rats or something...

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #153 on: September 17, 2010, 06:08:59 PM »
Half-Fey is Tier 2 and always has been.  You must be looking at Unseelie Fey

It's better with feytouched 0/Halffey transition, but that's a rather cheesy exploit.
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carnivore

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #154 on: September 17, 2010, 06:52:48 PM »
id like to suggest that Shadow Walker

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #155 on: September 17, 2010, 06:55:41 PM »
Eh, it's ok, but the SLAs aren't fantastic.
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carnivore

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #156 on: September 17, 2010, 07:00:25 PM »
true ... but it is only +1 LA and it is Acquired

 :D

snakeman830

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #157 on: September 17, 2010, 07:04:16 PM »
I think Tier 2 is where it caps.  You don't actually get a good variety of abilities, but it is worth a class level for a sneaky-type (who prefer darker areas anyway, usually).  Tier 2 or 3 is where it belongs.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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jameswilliamogle

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #158 on: September 17, 2010, 08:51:17 PM »
Maybe its worth mentioning the Magic in the Blood feat?  As some templates really, really shine with it?

Praef

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Re: Tier system for templates
« Reply #159 on: September 18, 2010, 12:11:41 AM »
Logically, this makes no sense, but I think it works RAW. 
Incarnate Construct Warforged with the Half Minotaur, Primordial Giant, and White Dragonspawn. 
For no LA, that's +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, and +2 Wis, large size, +9 nat armor, flight, +1 caster level to SLAs, some SLAs, scent, track, a gore attack, darkvision, skill bonuses, and of course, +4 to escape a maze spell.
The only part i'm not sure about is the white dragonspawn, because dragonlance is not one of books I have.