Tier system for templates

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Figured this was a better place than the simple QA, what what should a DM do about a freed yellow husk zombie. There is no mention in this template of it being 'lost' while every other template that presumably can be lost does mention what happens.

It seems the DM would have to assign an LA. The CR is +0, so should the post-zombie LA be +0?  +1 seems way too steep for losing EVERYTHING you previously knew...

[sud]

Also +1 template divine minion is tier one, give wildshape as a level 11 druid.

I think that divine minion is off the chart (depending on the associated deity, of course)

Clarification: Is this the "Mulhorandi divine minion" from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a?

As written, the at-will, unlimited, free-action(!) "wildshape as a level 11 druid" (in metal armor, no less) is limited to a few forms that depend on your deity, right?  None of the forms listed are particularly earth-shattering: lion, brown bear, large scorpion....  The only relevant detail relating to "level 11 druid'' is that it allows for tiny animal forms: cat, hawk, etc.

Also, the LA is +2 for any of the better animal forms.

By itself, it's not all that great: overwhelming at low levels, but a wash by midlevels. 

It becomes ridiculous only when mated with MoMF or some other "now let me change from kitty-cat to Elemental Monolith" capability, right?

just trying to understand...

[Prime32]

On top of that it makes you an outsider (possibly with an alignment subtype) which is great for Fiend of Possession. It possibly lets you qualify for Wild feats and use them at will. And let's not forget insanities like Frozen Wild Shape.

[Ian Frost]

If I'm not mistaken it also lets you heal as if with a full nights rest, at will, as a free action   

Fast Wild Shape (Su): A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves (divine minions of Set also have a vermin form). The divine minion can use this ability at will, can change form as a free action, and can spend time in animal form indefinitely. They prefer to keep their shapechanging abilities secret so that they can use them to surprise their enemies in combat. Unlike a druid, minions can use this ability even if they're wearing metal armor.

Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

[Nachofan99]

Has anyone mentioned or seen the Abomination Dragonspawn template from Bestiary of Krynn?

For +1 LA you could potentially have:  Barbarian rage, fly speed, burrow speed or 2 extra legs PLUS four of the following (There are more also, but I feel like these are the best of the bunch): SR, +1 Effective Sorcerer level, Blur as an extraordinary ability, +4 to Str/Dex/Con, 2 extra dice on breath weapons, fast heal 3.

Think it is easily potentially tier 2, but on average, tier 3.

There is, however, ye olde poorly thought out clause:  "Feel free to add any mutations desired..."  RAW that catapults it into Tier 0 Wizard Fiat status.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The main issue is that it's irritatingly random - doomwarding helps a bit (since it lets you reroll anything), but otherwise it's just not consistent enough.  Theoretically you could get like +2 or +4 effective sorcerer levels, but the odds are way against it.

[Nachofan99]

How optimized could we make the rolling process?


And yes, getting a mish-mosh of abilities that don't work together at all (like getting an improved claw attack - which then gets REPLACED by a slam attack - or having barbarian rage with effective sorcerer levels) makes it probably around tier 3 most of the time.  Still, it's possible to get +4 effective sorcerer levels so it's worth noting.

[dna1]

Just wait to decide what your going to make til after you see what random things you rolled?

[jameswilliamogle]

Why is Phrenic Tier 2 and Half-Fey Tier 1?

[snakeman830]

Half-Fey is Tier 2 and always has been.  You must be looking at Unseelie Fey

[jameswilliamogle]

Ah.  I r teh suk.

I'd put them in Tier 1, personally.  At least en par w/ Mineral Warrior.  Particularly Phrenic: those abilities get auto-augmented to HD/level.

Actually, I take that back...  Would you consider redefining Tier 1?  If I weren't playing a spellcaster, I'd never play a White Dragonspawn.  Nor would I play a Feral Mineral Warrior if I were playing a spellcaster.  Great templates, though, but I can't see them as being used every time they're available.

[snakeman830]

That too is covered before I define the tiers.  I state that the rankings are all based off of the assumption the template's strengths are being played to.

[jameswilliamogle]

Well, I guess I'll just go suck on a bag of rats or something...

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Half-Fey is Tier 2 and always has been.  You must be looking at Unseelie Fey

It's better with feytouched 0/Halffey transition, but that's a rather cheesy exploit.

[carnivore]

id like to suggest that Shadow Walker

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Eh, it's ok, but the SLAs aren't fantastic.

[carnivore]

true ... but it is only +1 LA and it is Acquired

 

[snakeman830]

I think Tier 2 is where it caps.  You don't actually get a good variety of abilities, but it is worth a class level for a sneaky-type (who prefer darker areas anyway, usually).  Tier 2 or 3 is where it belongs.

[jameswilliamogle]

Maybe its worth mentioning the Magic in the Blood feat?  As some templates really, really shine with it?

[Praef]

Logically, this makes no sense, but I think it works RAW. 
Incarnate Construct Warforged with the Half Minotaur, Primordial Giant, and White Dragonspawn. 
For no LA, that's +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, and +2 Wis, large size, +9 nat armor, flight, +1 caster level to SLAs, some SLAs, scent, track, a gore attack, darkvision, skill bonuses, and of course, +4 to escape a maze spell.
The only part i'm not sure about is the white dragonspawn, because dragonlance is not one of books I have.