Tier system for templates

[bearsarebrown]

Proto-Creature from Bestiary of Krynn is a +0 LA template that has some pretty interesting changes. Notably, +4 Strength, +2 Con and Rage as a Barbarian of their HD. You lose your race's Su abilities and SLAs, but regardless, that's a pretty great template for a bruiser.

You keep the Human bonus feat?! Holy shit that's insane!

[PhaedrusXY]

Proto-Creature from Bestiary of Krynn is a +0 LA template that has some pretty interesting changes. Notably, +4 Strength, +2 Con and Rage as a Barbarian of their HD. You lose your race's Su abilities and SLAs, but regardless, that's a pretty great template for a bruiser.

You keep the Human bonus feat?! Holy shit that's insane!

WTF!!!!! Ok... I need to see that... That would go well on my RHoD brute.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Apply to a necropolitan for extra lulz.

It also increases racial HD size, so presumably that would increase your d12 hd to the next size up...

Oh, and it has -2 int and -4 cha as well as the +4 str and +2 con.

[Negative Zero]

Yay I helped.

On another note, what qualifies as "Racial" spell-likes for the purposes of Magic in the Blood?

[bearsarebrown]

Yay I helped.

On another note, what qualifies as "Racial" spell-likes for the purposes of Magic in the Blood?

I assume inherited template and races.

[NiteCyper]

re: dragonspawn:

"I don't have access to "Dragonlance - Dragons of Krynn" (non-anthology, rpg) which apparently has more Dragonspawn information in it."

"not recommended, cheesy, backstoryrific, non-humans become Abomination Spawn [which are actually bonuses].
"I wrote some errata for the template that appears in the Age of Mortals campaign modules and in the Bestiary of Krynn, essentially making their type "dragon" and not monstrous humanoid, etc." - Cam Banks
http://yfrog.com/evdlcs223px
http://yfrog.com/jurevisedbestiaryofkrynn4px"

"http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/163412-dragonspawn-race-template.html
http://www.dragonlanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?2200-Dragonspawn-born-or-made
http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/17632.aspx
http://www.google.ca/search?q=white+dragonspawn"

"The "spawning" was typically done on Humans and Half-elves. When done on other humanoids it would result in an Abomination Spawn. The process took about half an hour. The victim would have to ingest an amount of draconian blood mixed with some alchemical substances. The draconian is usually brought close to death in this process. The victim's mind and soul is fused with parts of the draconian. The victim then changes physically and looses all memories of its past life. They are now under the control of the Overlord that made them, although a rare few sometimes retain their free will.

...

The patron Dragon Overlord of a dragonspawn can communicate back and forth with it telepathically and see through its eyes.

...

Death of an Overlord

Dragonspawns' existence is linked to their Overlord. When an Overlord is killed or their skull totem is destroyed the dragonspawn feel a backlash that may kill them. Some die, but others manage to survive barely but are insane. Others that are strong will survive and gain their free will back, but still have no memories of their past. Rarer still are the few that survive and regain their free will and their memories of their past lives." - Dragonlance Nexus: Dragonspawn

This is why I don't play a Ghost either.

Reference(s):
excerpts from my ScMIC
Dragonlance Nexus: Dragonspawn - http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/17627.aspx

[TheEndIsNear]

Apply to a necropolitan for extra lulz.

It also increases racial HD size, so presumably that would increase your d12 hd to the next size up...

Oh, and it has -2 int and -4 cha as well as the +4 str and +2 con.

You know, except it says it won't work that way...

It specificaly says D12 max.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Apply to a necropolitan for extra lulz.

It also increases racial HD size, so presumably that would increase your d12 hd to the next size up...

Oh, and it has -2 int and -4 cha as well as the +4 str and +2 con.

You know, except it says it won't work that way...

It specificaly says D12 max.

That's what I get for using a crib sheet 


Honestly, white dragonspawn has been rewritten, errataed, derrated, powered up, powered down, flipped turn-ways and written backwards that it's pretty difficult to get a consistent version(other than it being awesome).  That, and the questionable third-partiness of some dragonlance stuff, making it even murkier.  Even the worst version is fairly easy to overcome the downsides of, though.

[TheEndIsNear]

Wait, where has it been rewritten?

Is there a list of all the places?

[deuxhero]

What is the best use of the 2 "free" la from an Incarnate Construct (or whatever the name of that -2 la template was) Warforged (which has a warforged's ability mods and nothing else, effectively a "build a race" gimmick)

[NiteCyper]

stuff in references?

Warforged Charger (MMIII) or Warforged Titan have huge LA.

The problem is the cost of attaining the template itself, like Half-Golem, Mineral Warrior, Dragonspawn, and (probably) Saint.

I used to be on a bent about it too. (reference 2)

Reference(s):
1. Google "incarnate construct warforged" - http://www.google.ca/search?q=incarnate+construct+warforged&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
2. Mage Assassin - http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864606/35_Op_Help_Needed_Mage_Assasain?post_id=338187494

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

What is the best use of the 2 "free" la from an Incarnate Construct (or whatever the name of that -2 la template was) Warforged (which has a warforged's ability mods and nothing else, effectively a "build a race" gimmick)

Though that probably works by raw, since warforged are alive this really goes against the fluff and is likely to get a DMG to the face.

BTW unseelie fey is not suitable for PCs. Its has no "LA:" line and therefore defaults to "LA: -"

The +0 in the gnome description is clearly before the template. I really can't see any DM allowing this as LA+0 because it has no indication that it is meant to be for PCs. Free wings? Blindsense? Don't abuse typos...


and why the heck is magic blooded tier 1? trading wis for cha hurts. and the SLAs are dinky...

quasilycanthropes aren't tier 2 either. Shapechanger sub-type and DR... who cares?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Magic-blooded is tier 1 for a cha-based character (IE: a caster who won't be hurt by -1 to will saves).

It's crappy for what it isn't intended for, but incantrix is crappy for fighters as well

[snakeman830]

BTW unseelie fey is not suitable for PCs. Its has no "LA:" line and therefore defaults to "LA: -"

The +0 in the gnome description is clearly before the template. I really can't see any DM allowing this as LA+0 because it has no indication that it is meant to be for PCs. Free wings? Blindsense? Don't abuse typos...

Wether a DM would allow it or not isn't what this is covering.  As written, the template has an LA of +0.  After all, the Gnome example has the template already applied.

Also

Tier 1: These templates are ones that you would take almost without a second thought if they were allowed.  In fact, these templates are so good, there had better be a good reason why you didn't take them.  Most of the templates in this category can easily be considered broken.

emphasis mine.

Quasilycanthrope is a solid template for those who want to tank.  The DR is higher than that of Mineral Warrior and also less likely to be overcome, but the template gives fewer benefits.  One class level in exchange for 10 less damage taken on every attack and the ability to enter Warshaper is generally a good trade for tanking.

[deuxhero]

Now someone needs to rank ACFs.

it should probably be done in the "+/-" format, in relation to the class feature it is replacing.
if it is done in the "1-5" format, then each ACF should be judged based on it's effect on the respective class, as opposed to in relation to other classes' ACFs.

How about
-3: bad enough to lower the tier of the class.
-2: Strictly worse than the default Never take this unless it gets you qualifications
-1: Worse than default, but may work for some builds
+0: About even, may varry depending on campaign
+1: Better than default, but there are still reasons to take the default
+2: Strictly better than default, always take this if you don't need the class feature
+3: Enough to change the tier of the class upward or something for nothing.

[wotmaniac]

Now someone needs to rank ACFs.

it should probably be done in the "+/-" format, in relation to the class feature it is replacing.
if it is done in the "1-5" format, then each ACF should be judged based on it's effect on the respective class, as opposed to in relation to other classes' ACFs.

How about
-3: bad enough to lower the tier of the class.
-2: Strictly worse than the default Never take this unless it gets you qualifications
-1: Worse than default, but may work for some builds
+0: About even, may varry depending on campaign
+1: Better than default, but there are still reasons to take the default
+2: Strictly better than default, always take this if you don't need the class feature
+3: Enough to change the tier of the class upward or something for nothing.

me likes 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Not sure I agree with that, given that the domain wizard variant is "something for nothing", but I wouldn't put it in the same class as "abrupt jaunt".

[Ed-Zero]

From what it looks like, the iron half-golem template should have a +4 LA based on CR. But that's just me eyeballin' it.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So, is there going to be a tier system for races?

[bearsarebrown]

The tier listings here are really skimping on the low end stuff. there are a ton of really shitty templates. But it's true that there really is no point in listing them.