I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.

[Solo]

By all means, contribute constructively to the discussion.

And right back at ya.

Wow, you sure showed me.

Yeah, that post earlier was unnecessary. Can someone delete it? And this to, please.

Unfortunately, there is no way for us to delete posts. When I want to get rid of a post, I simply edit it and introduce better content.

[Kuroimaken]

No, seriously. Think about it for a second.

In 3.5, you basically had two directions to go if you wanted to be effective as a beatstick: battlefield control (albeit weaker than a spellcaster's) and direct damage. The first, they pretty much took away. The second got weaker.

How is this an improvement?

I'd like to think that the first wasn't taken away, it's just different.  It works marginally better against enemies that are predominantly class-oriented and marginally worse against enemies that are big, bad monsters with a bucket of HD, with the differences being relatively small at low levels and much more noticeable at higher ones.

The second only got weaker so far as using Power Attack.  You just have to get your damage fix somewhere else.

Power Attack is actually core-stronger because you require less optimization to use it to effect. And it actually works at all with light weapons. Unless you are using Shock Trooper or some other way to dump it all to hit AND still connect, you profit from PF PA.

The first though, they mostly reintroduced differently. And I might add the whole CMB/CMD business favors PCs somewhat more than the old ability checks.
Trip went from Str(expected +4 to +6)+Size(usually 0)+Feat vs Str(+5 to +10)+Size(which adds +4 to +8),
to
Str/Dex(expected +5 to +7 due to easier stat boosts from human)+BAB+Size(still +0)+Feat vs Str(+6 to +11)+Dex(usually 0 to +2 on a strong monster)+BAB(often 3/4 but about equivalent thanks to monstrous HD numbers)+Size(+1 to +2).
So it becomes a problem at later levels, because monsters have absurd stats(which they have in either version).

Again, no real improvement, the points shifted around a bit but the good and bad don't fundamentally alter the game.

I'd think that looks bad regardless of what you're up against.

If you're up against a monster, it probably has buckets of HD, as you mentioned yourself - and thus, a higher BAB along with the fact it's adding two attributes plus size already. Yes they reduced the size bonuses, then turned around and gave twice the benefit to a side that already has plenty. In essence, at best you're spending feats to be marginally competent, for an ability you might be able to use successfully perhaps 50% of the time (assuming PF didn't change the two size categories trip clause). That doesn't feel like a good investment to me.

[veekie]

It IS pretty screwed up, thats for sure.
Not as screwed up as its sometimes made out to be. And what was there before was a mess to start with.

[Sunic_Flames]

Hi Welcome

I'm right and you know it. You want examples, here's a fucking classic:

Ice Devil.

The Pathfailure Ice Devil has the same or better defenses against melee, and the same other abilities, but worse saves. Significantly worse. So it's a little bitch to any caster, but automatically annihilates beatsticks.

Or how about White Dragons, the CR 15 one? Much better vs beatsticks, easier vs casters.

On the face of it those are good examples, but lets dig a little deeper. The Ice Devil in 3.5 and Pathfinder both have the same AC, Fortitude and Reflex saves, the Pathfinder Ice Devil has 14 more hitpoints and a Will save 3 points lower. I think a SoD based caster will have an easier time against this enemy, both versions of the Ice Devil have below average HP as an aside. What about melee characters then? Well they all have a higher wealth by level, so that should help a little with attack and defense along with two extra feats and their class level in extra HP, at least. The Ice Devil only gains one more HP in the conversion than any single classed character.

You and I both know Pathfailure charges more for beatstick gear. So not only is there no wealth advantage, there is a wealth disadvantage. And that's before you consider things like wealth caps, that really start shoving it to beatsticks around this level. We've already been over why they have less feats as well.

So the Pathfailure caster smashes it's 7-11 point nerfed save, and yes it is 7-11, and not 1 with jacked up DCs, and automatically annihilates it.

Meanwhile the beatstick gets owned by Persistent Image and similar and gets slaughtered. He probably doesn't even get to auto attack its HP, but if he does he's flailing for piddly shit, at a higher HP total.

Lets look at the CR 15 White Dragon, in 3.5 it's a very old Dragon, in Pathfinder it's ancient. The HP increase from 3.5 to Pathfinder is paltry, a mere 7 hit points but it receives a rather sizeable 6 point increase to armour class. Extra feats and WBL can only do so much, I think a melee character will have a harder time. The Pathfinder Dragon also sees his Will save increased by one point and his SR increase by 3 points. Humans and half-humans get a +2 ability modifier that's going to go into the casting stat cancelling out that will save increase but the difference in WBL probably won't afford them a way to negate that increase in SR. So this encounter has gotten more difficult for both melee and caster, especially when you consider the dragon gets access to more powerful abilities with its age category increase.

You and I both also know Pathfailure beatsticks can't hit anything, and SR is quite irrelevant. Meanwhile, there's other DC boosts besides the +1 "you exist" bonus, so the dragon is also a caster's bitch.

I could start flipping through monster manuals looking for counter examples, but I won't waste people's time. If you look at the averages from levels 1-20, Pathfinder increased HP about 1 point per level (1.17 to be exact), which is about what a Pathfinder character gets from their favoured class bonus. The outliers have less hitpoints than in Pathfinder, the average difference between average and max hitpoints in Pathfinder is 22 hit points, in 3.5 it's 95 hit points. Pathfinder increases the average AC by 1.38 on average, that's not a huge leap. Pathfinder simple doesn't nerf melee characters, the numbers show it.

tl;dr?
Hi Welcome,
lrn 2 math newb

Ignoring more lies and fail from the flailer.

No, seriously. Think about it for a second.

In 3.5, you basically had two directions to go if you wanted to be effective as a beatstick: battlefield control (albeit weaker than a spellcaster's) and direct damage. The first, they pretty much took away. The second got weaker.

How is this an improvement?

I'd like to think that the first wasn't taken away, it's just different.  It works marginally better against enemies that are predominantly class-oriented and marginally worse against enemies that are big, bad monsters with a bucket of HD, with the differences being relatively small at low levels and much more noticeable at higher ones.

The second only got weaker so far as using Power Attack.  You just have to get your damage fix somewhere else.

So it works slightly better against the things that are so trivial the Mister Cavern might as well make their first action be to Coup De Grace themselves since they cannot possibly pose a threat to you, and significantly (not marginally) worse against everything you remotely care about (read: anything you might remotely consider using crowd control on).

And this is supposed to be anything other than an admission of failure?

I'd expect better, but you're X Codes, the incarnation of fail.

And you don't get your damage fix somewhere else. That's the whole point.

Attention all Pathfailure fuckwits: I will now be stealing 400 dollars from each of you. I will then give you 20 dollars back. You will bend over and thank me for giving you 20 dollars, and conveniently forget I stole far more from you. If you object to this in any way, you must immediately concede that having 400 dollars stolen from you, and getting 20 back still means you have 380 fewer dollars than you started with. Just as you must concede that the beatsticks, who had to struggle and fight every step of the way just to be a blip on the radar, who then lost 400 damage, and gained around 20 back had the fuck nerfed out of them.

[juton]

You and I both know Pathfailure charges more for beatstick gear. So not only is there no wealth advantage, there is a wealth disadvantage. And that's before you consider things like wealth caps, that really start shoving it to beatsticks around this level. We've already been over why they have less feats as well.

I'd like examples of basic beatstick gear that is more expensive. The basic sources of AC are the same, save the changes to animated shields, it costs the same to upgrade your weapon, except now even a fighter can enchant their own equipment in core, but even without that make a better argument about the wealth disparity. Also please go into depth how they have less feats overall.

So the Pathfailure caster smashes it's 7-11 point nerfed save, and yes it is 7-11, and not 1 with jacked up DCs, and automatically annihilates it.

I want to reply to this, but I have no fucking idea what you're rambling about.

Meanwhile the beatstick gets owned by Persistent Image and similar and gets slaughtered. He probably doesn't even get to auto attack its HP, but if he does he's flailing for piddly shit, at a higher HP total.

The DCs for things like Persistant Image hasn't changed, if that screws a beatstick in Pathfinder it screws them in 3.5, stop being disingenuous. The 14 HP gap is trivial an you know, but you can't fucking admit it.

You and I both also know Pathfailure beatsticks can't hit anything, and SR is quite irrelevant. Meanwhile, there's other DC boosts besides the +1 "you exist" bonus, so the dragon is also a caster's bitch.

It would be fairly trivial to make a level 15 character that can regularly hit the Ancient White Dragon, so saying he's going to be missing all the time is a blatant fucking lie. SR is relevant, everytime you go with your second choice of spell team monster has won a little victory.

Attention all Pathfailure fuckwits: I will now be stealing 400 dollars from each of you. I will then give you 20 dollars back. You will bend over and thank me for giving you 20 dollars, and conveniently forget I stole far more from you. If you object to this in any way, you must immediately concede that having 400 dollars stolen from you, and getting 20 back still means you have 380 fewer dollars than you started with. Just as you must concede that the beatsticks, who had to struggle and fight every step of the way just to be a blip on the radar, who then lost 400 damage, and gained around 20 back had the fuck nerfed out of them.

My wallet is still full motherfucker, my wallet is still full.

[Sunic_Flames]

You and I both know Pathfailure charges more for beatstick gear. So not only is there no wealth advantage, there is a wealth disadvantage. And that's before you consider things like wealth caps, that really start shoving it to beatsticks around this level. We've already been over why they have less feats as well.

I'd like examples of basic beatstick gear that is more expensive. The basic sources of AC are the same, save the changes to animated shields, it costs the same to upgrade your weapon, except now even a fighter can enchant their own equipment in core, but even without that make a better argument about the wealth disparity. Also please go into depth how they have less feats overall.

Stat boosters say Hi Welcome

And since you were kind enough to mention Animated shields, that's a whole slot you don't get to use.

Master Craftsman or whatever the fuck it's called is an automatically invalid argument.

We've also already been over how when you get a third more feats, but have to pay 2-4 times more feats to do the same thing, but not as well, you have less feats. Do try to follow along, though I know it's hard for you Pathfailure fuckwits to think critically.

I want to reply to this, but I have no fucking idea what you're rambling about.

That is because you are a fuckwit, but you play Pathfailure so we already knew this.

The 3.5 Ice Devil has +19 Will saves (and +19 Fort saves, and +18 Ref saves) all the time. The Pathfailure Ice Devil meanwhile has a +12 Will save (and +15/+14 Fort/Ref). Additionally, the 3.5 Ice Devil has a CL 12 Conviction pot for 600, which it always drinks before the fight because you'd have to be a retard not to buff your saves, and therefore has Fort and Will saves of +23, and Ref saves of +22. The Pathfailure Ice Devil cannot do this, as that spell does not exist there, leaving it free to be torn apart by real characters. Namely, save or lose spammers.

So the 3.5 Ice Devil passes all saves on a 2, which means it actually fucking lives more than 1 round, even against a good party and is therefore capable of threatening said party. The Pathfailure Ice Devil most likely never gets a fucking turn.

The DCs for things like Persistant Image hasn't changed, if that screws a beatstick in Pathfinder it screws them in 3.5, stop being disingenuous. The 14 HP gap is trivial an you know, but you can't fucking admit it.

We have already been over how beatsticks are automatically annihilated by save or loses, but since you continue to breath out of your mouth around Buhlman's micropenis here it is, one more time.

Beatsticks have worse saves. A lot worse. And that's before counting the things that improve saves that they cannot access. Like say, Conviction. So while the decent 3.5 beatsticks will pass the saves on a 2, the Pathfailure beatsticks will have Epic Failure for saves, and will spend the entire, short fight beguiled by illusions before getting slaughtered.

It would be fairly trivial to make a level 15 character that can regularly hit the Ancient White Dragon, so saying he's going to be missing all the time is a blatant fucking lie. SR is relevant, everytime you go with your second choice of spell team monster has won a little victory.

So, your piddly little beatstick has +47 to hit, at level 15, and still does relevant damage, keeping in mind this is Pathfailure, and as such beatsticks die at character creation? Because that is the absolute minimum number required to meet the criteria you state, because the dragon has AC 45 without trying at all. This also assumes that the dragon is a routine encounter, which is most likely not the case, which means that you are a lower level than 15, because the fight with the dragon is meant to be something that actually fucking matters. You know, to the real characters, which you are not.

You also know, or would know if you were not a Pathfailure fuckwit that SR is not relevant, because Conjurations are so fucking good anyways that using them is not a power down at all, and is in fact something that you would likely choose to do anyways.

Attention all Pathfailure fuckwits: I will now be stealing 400 dollars from each of you. I will then give you 20 dollars back. You will bend over and thank me for giving you 20 dollars, and conveniently forget I stole far more from you. If you object to this in any way, you must immediately concede that having 400 dollars stolen from you, and getting 20 back still means you have 380 fewer dollars than you started with. Just as you must concede that the beatsticks, who had to struggle and fight every step of the way just to be a blip on the radar, who then lost 400 damage, and gained around 20 back had the fuck nerfed out of them.

My wallet is still full motherfucker, my wallet is still full.

You keep telling yourself that. Now bend over for the casters like a good Pathfailure fuckwit. It's the Druid's turn today, and he wants to get his tiger friend in on the action for a threesome. I hope you like barbed cocks.

[Meg]

Enough with the insults. Tolerance level for this immaturity has been far surpassed.  All done.

[juton]

Stat boosters say Hi Welcome

And since you were kind enough to mention Animated shields, that's a whole slot you don't get to use.

Master Craftsman or whatever the fuck it's called is an automatically invalid argument.

We've also already been over how when you get a third more feats, but have to pay 2-4 times more feats to do the same thing, but not as well, you have less feats. Do try to follow along, though I know it's hard for you Pathfailure fuckwits to think critically.

I believe you are incorrect, stat boosters like a Periapt of Wisdom +2 cost the same in both editions. You may be referring to the Adding/Improving Common Item Effects rules from page 235 of the rules compendium, I believe this is not a relevant comparison because we must constrain ourselves to the core books. Otherwise a system with 8+ years of product will obviously have more options than a system with 2+ years of products, with volume of product not reflecting the quality of mechanic. Likewise bring conviction into the conversation is not relevant because it is not a core spell.

Animated shields are still in Pathfinder, you simply can't animate a Tower Shield, also the shield will only remain animated for a few turns, while this is less advantageous than in 3.5 I believe it can still be worth the gold to purchase. Master Craftsman is relevant, it lets a Fighter or Monk provide half price magic arms, armour and wondrous items to the party for half the cost with enough downtime (which at least several of the Paizo APs provide). As covered else where your assertion that the trip technique requires 2-4 times the feat is invalid.

That is because you are a fuckwit, but you play Pathfailure so we already knew this.

The 3.5 Ice Devil has +19 Will saves (and +19 Fort saves, and +18 Ref saves) all the time. The Pathfailure Ice Devil meanwhile has a +12 Will save (and +15/+14 Fort/Ref). Additionally, the 3.5 Ice Devil has a CL 12 Conviction pot for 600, which it always drinks before the fight because you'd have to be a retard not to buff your saves, and therefore has Fort and Will saves of +23, and Ref saves of +22. The Pathfailure Ice Devil cannot do this, as that spell does not exist there, leaving it free to be torn apart by real characters. Namely, save or lose spammers.

So the 3.5 Ice Devil passes all saves on a 2, which means it actually fucking lives more than 1 round, even against a good party and is therefore capable of threatening said party. The Pathfailure Ice Devil most likely never gets a fucking turn.

You are assuming that the Ice Devil is being played with the full cunning of a PC, is this is true of at least the boss monsters in a campaign how likely is it that a party will succeed? Many campaigns feature casters several levels higher than the party, if these characters are played with the same skill as a PC, especially reinforcing with minions then how would the PCs be able to complete the campaign?

We have already been over how beatsticks are automatically annihilated by save or loses, but since you continue to breath out of your mouth around Buhlman's micropenis here it is, one more time.

Beatsticks have worse saves. A lot worse. And that's before counting the things that improve saves that they cannot access. Like say, Conviction. So while the decent 3.5 beatsticks will pass the saves on a 2, the Pathfailure beatsticks will have Epic
Failure for saves, and will spend the entire, short fight beguiled by illusions before getting slaughtered.

Beatsticks regularly get high enough saves to survive, there are several ways they can go about it, there are options available though. I'm sure there are after-action reports circulating on the outlining beatsticks who've survived and contributed through the higher levels. In specific I'd like to reply to the allegation that I am a fan of Jason Buhlman's work on the Pathfinder line, as I've written in several threads that is not true, in specific I'd like this allegation retracted.

So, your piddly little beatstick has +47 to hit, at level 15, and still does relevant damage, keeping in mind this is Pathfailure, and as such beatsticks die at character creation? Because that is the absolute minimum number required to meet the criteria you state, because the dragon has AC 45 without trying at all. This also assumes that the dragon is a routine encounter, which is most likely not the case, which means that you are a lower level than 15, because the fight with the dragon is meant to be something that actually fucking matters. You know, to the real characters, which you are not.

If I showed you a core Pathfinder build that could hit those targets would it really change anyones mind?

[X-Codes]

So it works slightly better against the things that are so trivial the Mister Cavern might as well make their first action be to Coup De Grace themselves since they cannot possibly pose a threat to you, and significantly (not marginally) worse against everything you remotely care about (read: anything you might remotely consider using crowd control on).

Or there's the war cleric that is maybe one or two levels higher than you but has 3/4 BAB instead of full BAB and lower Strength, and therefore has a notably lower CMD than you have CMB.  Before you say something about casting while prone, he's still threatened and he can't take a 5' step.  I'd say that's a pretty useful thing to lock down.

And you don't get your damage fix somewhere else. That's the whole point.

At 12th level (likely when fighting a Gelugon), you're going to have 4 attacks dealing something on the order of 2d6+10(Str*1.5)+12(Power Attack)+other small mods (enhancement bonus, morale bonus, maybe Weapon Spec).  So starting with a conservative estimate of 30 damage per hit, you can two-round it as a character one level lower pretty easily (or you can have 2 beatsticks in your party).

No, beatsticks can't one-round creatures of their CR +4 anymore.  That doesn't mean they're now suddenly unplayable.