Author Topic: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.  (Read 31512 times)

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Anklebite

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2009, 06:00:48 PM »
well, the whole party called him a twink, despite his lack of wow-playing... and the term "twink" actually originated from furcadia, i believe....

that aside, he and the druid were the only ones among us who were optimized... the rogue was roguex/swash3/master throwerx/invisible bladex/somethingx and the druid was druidx/something1(might have been mineral warrior, he had a dig speed)/scion(the unupdated 3.0 divine PRC dragonborn who had a raptor for a pet(might've been a fleshraker).

incidentally, the scion PrC was totally imbalanced for druids.... it gave them fully spontainious spellcasting.
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Incendax

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2011, 12:16:58 AM »
well, the whole party called him a twink, despite his lack of wow-playing... and the term "twink" actually originated from furcadia, i believe....
Twink originates from the gay community to indicate an attractive young man with no fashion sense that is dressed stylishly by his gay partner. This made the attractive young man similar to a 'twinkie' since he looked good but had no substance. As you might imagine, this translated into the online community as giving 'powerful' items to young characters.

Furcadia never used the word correctly, for the obvious reason that there were no items in Furcadia. People just used it interchangeably with Powergamer, Godmoder, and Munchkin.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2011, 12:43:09 AM »
For me "Munchkin" always defined the guy who did the well-known obviously broken shit that you don't need any skill to break.

For example this board can produce a lot of Munchkins because everyone who reads this shit doesn't have to actually be smart enough to think of it themselves, so they are a Munchkin not an optimizer.

Someone who actually figures the stuff out is an Optimizer/Power gamer. It's the difference between a trendy person (munchkin) and a trendsetter (something more original and impressive).

This board is filled by a lot of power-gamers/optimizers, but a lot of munchkins can lurk and profit from the work.
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veekie

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2011, 12:54:27 AM »
Also Optimizers =/= Powergamers.
Powergaming means as a goal, you start and end with character power.
Practical optimisation rarely involves that.
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Incendax

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2011, 01:00:52 AM »
In my experience, the best definitions are as follows...

Munchkin = Someone who actually cheats at the game.
Powergamer = Someone who enjoys the mechanical aspects of the game more than the acting aspects.
Roleplayer = Someone who enjoys the acting aspects of the game more than the mechanical aspects.
Optimizer = The act of selecting feats/powers/skills/etc in an efficient and goal-oriented manner.

In this sense, there is nothing 'wrong' with enjoying the game as either a Powergamer or a Roleplayer and Optimizing is not mutually exclusive with either gaming style. You could just as easily be a Powergamer that does not Optimize as a Roleplayer that does Optimize. This goes back to the Stormwind Fallacy.


The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2011, 03:09:07 AM »
Basically, optimization is making a character who can survive a few bad rolls.  Munchkinism is using dice that don't give you bad rolls.
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Endarire

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2011, 03:12:31 AM »
What happened in this campaign?
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Kuroimaken

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2011, 12:03:02 PM »
It finished, mostly by the group growing apart.
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Endarire

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2011, 03:15:33 PM »
Kuro, did you achieve your goal?  Details!
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Kuroimaken

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2011, 03:27:29 PM »
I didn't. Like I said, the group pretty much grew apart over time.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Ikeren

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2011, 04:44:15 PM »
Yeah, clearest problem with Pathfinder are these two things:

1) Generalist wizards get far more powerful (Free metamagic)
2) Specialist wizards get far more powerful (prepare from banned schools)

3) All classes except a couple (Cleric, druid) get minor bumps in power/class features, but they're all minor. None of them are far enough to actually move a class in or out of a tier. So the Tier system still functions, just slightly differently.

4) Desire to be backward compatible with 3.5E ports in all the garbage of 3.5E without any attempt to fix it. If they had been clever, they would have plagerized and repackaged some of the basic fixes on various optimization and house rule forums and been like "Backwards compatible, except this garbage, and here we're explaining to the stupid among you why infinite loop wishes and action-abuse are problematic."


Possible other factor; I've heard the accusation that the CMD/CMB system actually lowers the odds of succeeding on a melee maneuvers in comparison to 3.5E; but I haven't seen a full numbers breakdown (though there exists an optimization by the numbers thread for both 3.5E and Pathfinder (Pathfailure, as people like to call it), so it would be possible to do this relatively easily).

Unbeliever

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2011, 06:04:15 PM »
...
Possible other factor; I've heard the accusation that the CMD/CMB system actually lowers the odds of succeeding on a melee maneuvers in comparison to 3.5E; but I haven't seen a full numbers breakdown (though there exists an optimization by the numbers thread for both 3.5E and Pathfinder (Pathfailure, as people like to call it), so it would be possible to do this relatively easily).
From what I understand, here's the two basic problems w/ the CMB: 

(1) CMB includes both stat (typically strength) and size alone w/ base attack bonus.  But, base attack bonuses scale much quick for monsters than they do for PCs, i.e., a monster of CR 10 tends to have a BAB of a lot higher than 10, and the rate of that increase only gets steeper as CRs get higher.  So, the gap in your check and the monster's check has increased. 

(2) The feats that made these checks easier have been nerfed, so that the maneuver is either less effective (trip) or the bonus is less (typically +2 vs +4).  The feats stack, though, so you can bring yourself up to the 3.5 standard +4, but you are still missing lots of the other options 3.5 has for improving these checks, such as more unusual feats, magic items, etc. 

So, the net result is that it not only takes more resources to get just as good as someone in 3.5 would be, but your relative ranking has gone down.  To the point where the builds usually aren't very viable.  All that is predicated on the monsters in Pathfinder having analogous stats to the ones in 3.5, but I have seen nothing that would indicate any major change. 

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2011, 06:24:23 PM »
It's quite understandable that a human can't (easily at least) trip a dragon or giant. That's why when I'm going for a triper build, then I'm thinking more about enemy NPCs then monsters.
I would have to be stupid to go and try to grapple a dragon, even when I'm an optimized grappler. :)
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Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2011, 06:51:37 PM »
well, the whole party called him a twink, despite his lack of wow-playing... and the term "twink" actually originated from furcadia, i believe....
Twink originates from the gay community to indicate an attractive young man with no fashion sense that is dressed stylishly by his gay partner. This made the attractive young man similar to a 'twinkie' since he looked good but had no substance. As you might imagine, this translated into the online community as giving 'powerful' items to young characters.

Furcadia never used the word correctly, for the obvious reason that there were no items in Furcadia. People just used it interchangeably with Powergamer, Godmoder, and Munchkin.
Well said.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2011, 06:57:52 PM »
It's quite understandable that a human can't (easily at least) trip a dragon or giant. That's why when I'm going for a triper build, then I'm thinking more about enemy NPCs then monsters.
I would have to be stupid to go and try to grapple a dragon, even when I'm an optimized grappler. :)
It's quite possible to make a favored soul, cleric, wizard, psychic warrior, or a totemist that can trip or grapple the biggest monsters in D&D. Not so much in Pathfinder.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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SorO_Lost

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2011, 07:02:56 PM »
I should really look into Pathfinder some time. I don't suppose there is a short list of big changes it did now is there?
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Unbeliever

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2011, 07:03:17 PM »
It's quite understandable that a human can't (easily at least) trip a dragon or giant. That's why when I'm going for a triper build, then I'm thinking more about enemy NPCs then monsters.
I would have to be stupid to go and try to grapple a dragon, even when I'm an optimized grappler. :)
What Lycan said.

Also, what is the typical encounter in a D&D or Pathfinder game?  To the extent that it's a monster, then that kind of reasoning is tantamount to saying "don't play a tripper/grappler/disarmer/etc."  So, those maneuvers have effectively been written out of the system for PCs.  It wouldn't be quite as bad, though still bad in my opinion, if these maneuvers required only a small investment -- if you just tossed something into disarming b/c you thought it was cool and it would occasionally come in handy.  But, that's made even worse in PF b/c they have increased the number of feats required to get any mileage out of these maneuvers.  

Akalsaris

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2011, 07:14:56 PM »
Epic Fail is Epic.

quoted for truth, justice and cookies...

siriously, how'd they manage that?  I mean sure, when my group first started up DnD, we ran around blasting the hell out of everything that moves.... but with two arcane casters and a druid, along with a monk a twink rogue and a barbarian.... it worked anyways by sheer force of damage.

So...you spent more than 500 Gold on enchantments for your level 29 rogue ? :LOL (sorry, couldnt resist)

Hey man, you weren't the only one thinking that.  I'll bet the bastard went crusader/lifestealing too  :P

veekie

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2011, 08:19:54 PM »
Well, the CMB thing, they reduced the impact of size on the check, which makes monsters, while difficult to maneuver, no longer impossible(because their modifier is like 20 above yours between size and str). Not that it changes much.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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McPoyo

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Re: I want to CHEAT like a motherfucker at Pathfinder.
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2011, 08:26:39 PM »
That said, if you build specifically for it, you will almost never fail against an on-cr opponent from 3 through 13ish, unless they are also built for it. Especially if you are a grappler and do the initiating, due to that +5untyped bonus you get in the subsequent rounds.
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They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
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