What does it take to be effective in melee?

[Sunic_Flames]

I used d10 hit die and a +2 con modifier, (10 + 5.5x4 + 5x2 = 42).

That's too low. I always put at least a 14 Con on any character I expect to melee at all (no matter how pathetic the point buy is), and buy Con boosting magic items ASAP. At level 7, it should be at least a 16 Con, and it should go up due to upgrades on the Con magic items.

Mostly what you've shown is that AC is a lousy defense, and Constitution is at least the second most important stat for pretty much everyone. Even bad optimizers know that.

If the combatants are just sitting there swapping full attacks anyway, then they should also be flanking, which will increase their chances of hitting by 10%. An AC of 27 isn't that hard to hit at level 13. BAB +13, Str +5, at least +1 from the weapon, +2 from flanking = +21 to hit (70% chance), and that's just what I'd expect from a crappy NPC-type of character at this level. A PC "warrior" should be pretty much auto-hitting with their first swings (and they should be hasted, so they get two of them, even if they have to buy the damned boots).

The example creatures you chose are basically specialized for melee combat, also. So they probably have higher than typical damage outputs and hit points for their CR. Of course... it could be worse... You could have used dragons...

So yeah, what you say is true to a certain extent, but it is a bit biased IMO, and things aren't actually as bad as you claim.

Except that it's a level 5 character, fighting level 7 stuff. You have 9k, are you blowing almost half of it on a Con item?

If he weren't practically optimizing the test subjects I'd be the first to blast him for it.

And picking anything other than a herp derp style autoattacker makes for worse, not better results. So things are biased... in favor of being worse than he says.

[PhaedrusXY]

Yeah, I realized after I posted that it's a level 5 character, not level 7. 

[LordBlades]

@LordBlades
I don't know, what you say is pretty reliably achieved by straightforward melee builds:  Stand Still + Thicket of Blades + reach. 

I'm not saying such builds wouldn't have their weaknesses or their issues, all or most builds do, but if #1-5 are the goal for a tank, I think it can be reliably done. 

Stand still+thicket of blades+reach is a good tactic, but that only gets you so far. Without spellcasting, your safe zone is only 10 ft, or 20 ft. if you use a belt of growth. anything that can hit that far, and you're no longer safe. It is a decent tanking tactic, however, I give you that, but like 99% of the melee stuff, it's based entirely on feats, and it gets quite a bit better if those feats are strapped onto a spellcasting class.

[Runestar]

Isn't this where spellcasters come in? For example, slow would reduce the giant to a pathetic 1 attack/round (though it can still charge+attack, and PA for a decent amount).

Is there any party who just leaves the fighter to take on the foes by his own simply to prove a point? 

[skydragonknight]

A Fighter is an at-will, no action spell that distracts enemies and occasionally kills them. Although it requires expensive material components such as swords and armor, you get those back when the spell expires.

[Mixster]

Is there any party who just leaves the fighter to take on the foes by his own simply to prove a point? 

No, but the fighter sometimes tries to.

[carnivore]

Is there any party who just leaves the fighter to take on the foes by his own simply to prove a point? 

No, but the fighter sometimes tries to.

Depending on the Fighter .... it is Possible, but it is safer to approach things as a group.... an Archer in the right Setting could end encounters before anyone else in the group can even act

 

[sir_argenon]

Isn't this where spellcasters come in? For example, slow would reduce the giant to a pathetic 1 attack/round (though it can still charge+attack, and PA for a decent amount).

Is there any party who just leaves the fighter to take on the foes by his own simply to prove a point? 

a slowed creature cannot take any full round actions. charge = full round.

[skydragonknight]

Isn't this where spellcasters come in? For example, slow would reduce the giant to a pathetic 1 attack/round (though it can still charge+attack, and PA for a decent amount).

Is there any party who just leaves the fighter to take on the foes by his own simply to prove a point? 

a slowed creature cannot take any full round actions. charge = full round.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I will let the quote speak for itself.

[sir_argenon]

never noticed that before. that ruins the point of being slowed, if you can still move and attack on your action. 

[Mixster]

never noticed that before. that ruins the point of being slowed, if you can still move and attack on your action. 

Not really, since they can still never full attack.

It does remove the point of slowing things like zombies. But there are other options to slow them.

And it also halves their speed, meaning a creature with 30ft speed would have you be exactly 15ft away from you in order to charge you. Which effectively makes them not able to charge, since you could just move 5ft closer or further away.

[veekie]

never noticed that before. that ruins the point of being slowed, if you can still move and attack on your action. 

Not really, since they can still never full attack.

It does remove the point of slowing things like zombies. But there are other options to slow them.

And it also halves their speed, meaning a creature with 30ft speed would have you be exactly 15ft away from you in order to charge you. Which effectively makes them not able to charge, since you could just move 5ft closer or further away.

Pounce?

[Mixster]

never noticed that before. that ruins the point of being slowed, if you can still move and attack on your action. 

Not really, since they can still never full attack.

It does remove the point of slowing things like zombies. But there are other options to slow them.

And it also halves their speed, meaning a creature with 30ft speed would have you be exactly 15ft away from you in order to charge you. Which effectively makes them not able to charge, since you could just move 5ft closer or further away.

Pounce?

That depends on the reading of pounce and the DM. Some would rule you cannot full attack because you can't take full round actions, and some would rule you can take the full attack because you charge.

[carnivore]

actually ... look at Slow:

Slow

Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes

An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions)

so NO Charges ... notice:

CHARGE

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

 

[carnivore]

but usually it is easier to just throw a Tanglefoot bag ....notice:

Tanglefoot Bag: When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.

then cast Grease on the Floor

 

[juton]

[Sunic_Flames]

Isn't this where spellcasters come in? For example, slow would reduce the giant to a pathetic 1 attack/round (though it can still charge+attack, and PA for a decent amount).

Is there any party who just leaves the fighter to take on the foes by his own simply to prove a point? 

Well, then we go to beatstick needs caster, caster does not need beatstick, beatstick is only good for finishing off crippled and effectively dead foes. Which is also old news.

[carnivore]

hows this .... does not require the rest of the Party(other Player Characters) to help

CR 10

Human
Ranger 2/ Fighter 8

Attributes: (32pt buy)
18 Str(15 +1 Lvl +2 Enhancement(belt)
20 Dex(16 +2 lvls +2 Enhancement(Gloves)
16 Con(14 +2 Enhancement(Amulet)
14 Int(14)
8 Wis(10)
8 Cha(8)


Feats:
Quickdraw(Human Bonus)
Track(Ranger bonus)
1st lvl: Weapon Focus(Throwing Axe)
2nd lvl: TWF(Ranger bonus)
3rd lvl: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finnesse(Fighter Bonus)
4th lvl: Far Shot(Fighter Bonus)
6th lvl: Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization(Throwing Axe)(Fighter Bonus)
8th lvl: Imp TWF(Fighter Bonus)
9th lvl: Imp Initiative
10th lvl: Greater Weapon Focus(Throwing Axe)(Fighter Bonus)


Equipment=Ave 49000 GP

4000gp +2 Str
4000gp +2 Dex
4000gp +2 Con
1205gp +1 Darkwood Buckler
2100gp +1 Mithral Chain Shirt
8308gp +1 Returning Throwing Axe
8308gp +1 Returning Throwing Axe
2000gp +1 Ring of Protection
12000gp Boots of Speed
2500gp 10x Guard Dogs
250gp 5x Tanglefoot Bags
200gp 20x Acid Flasks
129gp left


Combat Stats
+9 Initiative
AC 33(Base 10 +5 Dex +2 Shield +5 Armor+1 Deflection +10 (5 dogs:Aid Another) )

Full Ranged Attack with Throwing Axes +haste
+10 BAB +2 GWF +1 PBS +1 Enhancement +1 Haste +5 Dex +10 (5 dogs:Aid Another)= +30/+30/+25
TWF+Rapid Shot:
+26/+26/+26/+26/+21/+21
Damage:
3.5 Axe +1 Enhancement +2 WSp +1 PBS +4 Str= 11 Damage

Full Ranged Attack with Alchemical Splash Weapons +TWF+Rapid Shot+Haste=
+24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+19

Tactics:
use all 10 Dogs Aid Another(Attack bonus) and start @ 100'(5 Range Increments) .... already assumed in above stats, when Melee Starts,dogs regroup: 5 Dogs for AC, 5 Dogs for Attack

Surprise Round:Activate Boots of Speed)(Free Action), throw Axes(6 throws) (Full Round Action) : result 66 Damage
1st round:get Initiative, throw Axes(6 throws) (Full Round Action) : result 66 Damage
Giant move to Melee @ Double Move 35'+35' = Giant @ 30' away .... still out of Range
2nd round: throw Axes(6 throws) (Full Round Action) : result 66 Damage .... dogs regroup for AC and Attack
Giant move to Melee Full Attack with Greatsword.... does great Damage
3rd round: Melee Axes(5 attacks: +28/+28/+28/+23/+23) (Full Round Action) : result 55 Damage
Storm Giant dead


 

[weenog]

build

Uh, you can't do that with returning weapons.  They return just before your next turn, not just before your next attack.  If there's some errata or whatever changing this, please point it out, as it's something I've wanted to use before and it didn't work.

I'm curious about why you're using axen instead of daggers.  Do you find the extra 1 average damage per attack to be worth more than the higher crit chance, easier concealment, and more common appearance as loot?  Would you still choose throwing axe over dagger in actual play?

[Garryl]

Aid Another does not work like that. It only affects the next attack roll (singular) not all of them. It only affects melee combat, too, and the dogs need to be threatening the giant to do it anyways.
Returning thrown weapons are good for one attack per round each, not a full attack sequence. They don't come back until the start of your next turn.
Your damage calculations for round 1 assume a paradox. You are including the benefit of Point Blank Shot while at 100' away. Similarly, you are including the PBS bonus on the damage rolls in round 3 which are melee attacks.
You only get a single standard action in a surprise round, not a full-round action.
Is there any reason that the giant is double moving over to you instead of running? It would only lose its meager +2 Dex bonus. I can't think of any reason that running would not be the proper tactical decision. It's easy to forget about the Run option, but it's there.

Edit: The Storm Giant could also use its 1/day Chain Lightning to blast you and kill your dogs, too, instead of standing 30' away from you like a sucker. Or are we not supposed to consider tactics and spells/SLAs for this experiment? (Seriously, I forget. The testing methods were mentioned a while back in the middle of the thread and I forget the details and location.)

Edit again: I can't stand my own typos.