What does it take to be effective in melee?

[Shiki]

RAI is a myth, hey.

False.  There definitely exists a developer intent for all the rules.

I wasn't trying to imply that there was not btw. Sarcasm intended, hence the "hey .", but I guess I wasn't really clear.

[Senevri]

RAI is a myth, hey.

The only myth more hilarious than RAI is RAW.

I have to agree, though if there were no rules we'd be playing Magical Tea Party. :/

...We're not?
<puts cookies down>
Sheesh, I thought Arnold was just being bossy.

[Benly]

RAI is a myth, hey.

The only myth more hilarious than RAI is RAW.

I have to agree, though if there were no rules we'd be playing Magical Tea Party. :/

...We're not?
<puts cookies down>
Sheesh, I thought Arnold was just being bossy.

The terrible secret of D&D is that we are, in fact, playing Magical Tea Party. It's just that we use dice because unlike small children we don't trust our friends not to be dicks about it.

[Sinfire Titan]

@Carnivore
I've always contended that melee builds are much more challenging at the build stage.  But, picking spells (or invocations, etc.) is where all that work is for spellcasters.  Conjurer 20 is a fine build, but can still suck if you pick the wrong spells.  

like PhoenixInferno said a long time ago .... "a Random pick from a Bag of Awesome is still good" .... its very hard to suck with most spellcaster builds

If you are picking the right spells each time you cast one, then yes, it is very hard to suck with them. But you just need an inexperienced player/party to make your spellcaster "suck".


I cry a little every time I think about how much GP our party would have saved if the dumbass Rogue stayed out of my Cloudkill/Black Tentacles combo. And then the idiot has the gall to insult me for being a lousy spellcaster...

[Senevri]

Here's a fun thing for DMs to try: On one game session, or a one-shot game, have your players succeed, as long as they themselves don't declare they fail.

The game works surprisingly well like that, too.

[weenog]

@Carnivore
I've always contended that melee builds are much more challenging at the build stage.  But, picking spells (or invocations, etc.) is where all that work is for spellcasters.  Conjurer 20 is a fine build, but can still suck if you pick the wrong spells.  

like PhoenixInferno said a long time ago .... "a Random pick from a Bag of Awesome is still good" .... its very hard to suck with most spellcaster builds

If you are picking the right spells each time you cast one, then yes, it is very hard to suck with them. But you just need an inexperienced player/party to make your spellcaster "suck".


I cry a little every time I think about how much GP our party would have saved if the dumbass Rogue stayed out of my Cloudkill/Black Tentacles combo. And then the idiot has the gall to insult me for being a lousy spellcaster...

Paying for a very thorough assassination once is cheaper than paying to reverse the consequences of suffering an idiot to live daily.

[Senevri]

This reminds me: A totally random spell set has a certain likelihood of being BETTER than allowing a PC to pick spells on their own.

"I'm going to be a Ray sorcerer!"
"I'm going to be a Fire sorcerer!"

And of course, it's a straight sorcerer with a bunch of unrelated feats....

T_T;

[Benly]

This reminds me: A totally random spell set has a certain likelihood of being BETTER than allowing a PC to pick spells on their own.

"I'm going to be a Ray sorcerer!"
"I'm going to be a Fire sorcerer!"

And of course, it's a straight sorcerer with a bunch of unrelated feats....

T_T;

I consider it an enormous failure of the system that playing a sorcerer whose spells actually follow a theme is suboptimal compared to a grab bag of unconnected powers cherry picked from the best of each role. In terms of fluff, it seems like sorcerers should be rewarded for following a theme, but no such luck.

[Littha]

This reminds me: A totally random spell set has a certain likelihood of being BETTER than allowing a PC to pick spells on their own.

"I'm going to be a Ray sorcerer!"
"I'm going to be a Fire sorcerer!"

And of course, it's a straight sorcerer with a bunch of unrelated feats....

T_T;

I consider it an enormous failure of the system that playing a sorcerer whose spells actually follow a theme is suboptimal compared to a grab bag of unconnected powers cherry picked from the best of each role. In terms of fluff, it seems like sorcerers should be rewarded for following a theme, but no such luck.

You would be playing something other than sorcerer at that point, Dread Necro, Beguiler or Warmage probably.

[lans]

Totemist can get a grapple of 17+ strength at 5th level. 6 Girralion arms, 4 from invested essentia, 4 from improved grapple, 3 BAB. Good enough for the flesh golem with some strength, and with great strength it should be good enough to handle the hill giant. 24 vs 20.

Next level it goes to 22+strength.

Going  back to this with access to bonus feats it can get another +4 from Mauling Gauntlets, and there is a trait for another +1

At level 10 the check goes up to 33+strength and size increases, which should be able to handle the storm giant and definitely will handle the golem.

At level 15 it should add another 4 BAB, 4 from Giralion Arms, 2 from Mauling Gauntlets, and 2 From Kraken arms for 45+strength+size increases vs the 44 or 49 from the dragons looks pretty good.

[Senevri]

I consider it an enormous failure of the system that playing a sorcerer whose spells actually follow a theme is suboptimal compared to a grab bag of unconnected powers cherry picked from the best of each role. In terms of fluff, it seems like sorcerers should be rewarded for following a theme, but no such luck.

+1.

There's a bunch of little flaws all around 3.x, the above being one, and another being the fact that PrCs are often more powerful than base classes instead of doing something different.

[Shiki]

RAI is a myth, hey.

The only myth more hilarious than RAI is RAW.

I have to agree, though if there were no rules we'd be playing Magical Tea Party. :/

...We're not?
<puts cookies down>
Sheesh, I thought Arnold was just being bossy.

The terrible secret of D&D is that we are, in fact, playing Magical Tea Party. It's just that we use dice because unlike small children we don't trust our friends not to be dicks about it.

Then why did they even bother creating a system with all those options and all that math behind practically everything and et cetera? Magical Tea Party needs to be simple, and D&D clearly is not. I never really played WoD like I played D&D, but I can say that oWoD clearly looks more like Magical Tea Party than D&D ever will. (Can't say about nWoD since I never played it.)

[Tenebrus]

I'm having a new idea 

Next time I dm these dopes, I'll have a chaotic effect that moves their personalities from character to character, including an NPC, so that the same personality can direct a character with different abilities.  Maybe that will get them to "Oooh!  THAT'S what a Warblade does."

@Benly, +1 on sorcerers.  Did Pathfinder make this bloodlines thing happen correctly, or did they fuck that up too?

@Senevri, I don't think many PrCs are all that good.  There are those that are such hose jobs I think most dms won't allow them (Incantrix, Recaster) and some that are just putridly bad (Temple Raider).  I guess here's a question for the experts, best PrC's for Rogues and melee'ers.  Some do rock, like the RKV, but it seems good PrCs are few and far between.

[Senevri]

Tenebrus,
PF Sorcerers are very cool. Especially after APG. ( Archetypes <3 ) Protean and Shadow bloodlines are quite fun...

And, yeah, there are a lot of bad PrC:s... it's largely a problem with how Base classes were originally designed, and other things... 3.X has been very, very educational. And really, PF house rules are the best DnDish rules, especially after APG came out (although, like usual, there were a couple of idiotic things. )

Conan D20 works, since there really isn't casting,  by default, so the brainpower can be spent on figuring out the combat system. Plus, armor as DR and an armor piercing value on weapons just makes tons of sense to me.

Cthulhu D20 also works, since there are NO class features. You get your 7 feats and that's it. It's pretty cool, actually, and shows how robust the core mechanic really is.
...Wow, rambling. What were we talking of, anyway?

[veekie]

@Benly, +1 on sorcerers.  Did Pathfinder make this bloodlines thing happen correctly, or did they fuck that up too?

A little from column A, a little from column B.
Sorcerors get a Bloodline Arcana, which gives them bonuses to a given theme of magic, usually a small bonus to DCs for a descriptor, +1 or +2 depending on how narrow.
They also get bonus spells and bonus feats from the bloodline. These are sometimes pretty random.

[Senevri]

a cat is sleeping on my right hand.
it's mostly a bit of flavor, expanded spell list and bonus feats. however some cool stuff too:
undead incorporeal form, destined rerolls, fey fleeting glance and sr beat reroll, protean reality wrinkle, shadow's shadow master...

it does work better within itself, but you can utilize majority of wotc stuff without trouble.

[Benly]

The terrible secret of D&D is that we are, in fact, playing Magical Tea Party. It's just that we use dice because unlike small children we don't trust our friends not to be dicks about it.

Then why did they even bother creating a system with all those options and all that math behind practically everything and et cetera?

To help an audience of men presumed to be insecure in their masculinity pretend they are playing a Serious Business With Serious Numbers game instead of Magical Tea Party.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It's shopping, except you're shopping for superpowers and don't have to leave your house.

[Shiki]

Poor geeky boys getting bashed for playing a tabletop game.. .. 'Nyway [/derailment]

[Tenebrus]

Conan D20 works, since there really isn't casting,  by default, so the brainpower can be spent on figuring out the combat system. Plus, armor as DR and an armor piercing value on weapons just makes tons of sense to me.

Cthulhu D20 also works, since there are NO class features. You get your 7 feats and that's it. It's pretty cool, actually, and shows how robust the core mechanic really is.

I agree on armor as DR.  No secret that I am a BRP booster, and have played a bit of CoC in that system as well.  There's an awful lot of this system that doesn't make sense, but I can look past it if it makes a game happen.  Maybe I can wean you off the d20 hit point concept as well?