What does it take to be effective in melee?

[weenog]

Well yeah, if you can get to him while he's sleeping, killing him with a CDG should be pretty easy, done that one myself.  Not sure why you added the poisoning attempt, likelihood of doing anything useful is pretty low and it just adds another possible failure point.

The slam is fairly weak, but it has its uses, mainly threatening out to 15' whether or not he's got his other weapon.  Kind of a problem when his opposed attack bonus for disarm or sunder attempts is so high, he's got Improved Sunder, and he can attempt to disarm from outside your reach to make an AoO.

It's certainly not an impossible kill, it's just a big pain in the ass if the stealth assassination doesn't pan out.

[Senevri]

I still think ranged character might be able to beat it relatively easily. Especially with a FE:Giants ranger/horizon walker, or somesuch...

Lessee, something like Greater focus archer fighter, probably move+multishot, as there's the whole hitting issue. STR 14 could be adequate, presuming Bull's STR or a +4 item. Bow would be +2, Dex... 18 naked, presuming elf, so 22 boosted. To-hit of +20 vs. AC 27, doable. Damage isn't that good at 1d8+8, presuming WS and a +2 mighty (4) bow.

If we simply clone five of them, they deal 100ish points of damage per round, and take the giant out in 2-3 rounds under favorable conditions. The giant will likely kill one, maybe two of them, but I think that's about it since it's denied the chance to attack the whole group at once. Without too much investment in AC, it should still be in the 22-27 range, so the to-hit advantage will start to show.

Now, of course, if the giant can reach the group in melee, they're in a bit of trouble. Higher ground or flight would certainly be favorable. Still, they do require access to magical gear appropriate for their level to have a chance.

These are with a cost of 5 feats spent on bows, so they're pretty dedicated archers, really.

Looking at the title, and the storm giant, it seems what is needed is an AC of 10+3x level (or equivalent defense), an attack at least 2x your level, ( between 2x - 3x level range ),  dealing at least your level in damage, and ability to withstand about twice your level in damage, for four-five rounds.

[Mixster]

Ok this isn't core, but here is my thoughts for throwing out decent damage in a melee-ish situation.

Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 4/Ranger 5. (only loses one BAB with Partial BAB and two BAB without it).
Feats would be Improved Skirmish and Swift Hunter
Cloistered Cleric is there for Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion.
Combat style could be either TWF or Archery, but for the purpose of this thread let's assume TWF since it is melee based:
You run up to the giant and full attack, You'd get a total damage of: (assuming +1 Kukhris) 1d4(2.5)+5d6(17.5)+3+2+1=26 damage per attack on average, and you could be pumping out as many as 5 attacks with haste.
Going Archery style would probbaly be better, since you'd be able to run around the giant, while still full-attacking and getting skirmish damage, especially if you activate haste and buff yourself with expeditious retreat (hello 110ft movement). With Rapid shot you'd do more damage than you would in close combat.
I did use a cleric dip, but I still think it is a melee build only dipping cleric, not a cleric build dipping some melee for getting lower power.

I'm not sure the build would work, since I don't have my books at the moment, but I do think a Daring Outlaw or a Swift Hunter build could do some decent damage to those monsters, and probably win against them in the damage department.

Another option is the Spiked-Chain version of the supercharger.
He is a regular super-charger, but with the trippiness of a Spiked Chain user. Sadly giants are huge, so he'd need something to buff his size to at least large to have a decent chance at downing the bad as brother, but if he did get him down to the ground fairly easily he would be able to keep him down fairly easily. I'm thinking something Like: Dragonborn Water-Orc Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserker 4 With some sort of item increasing his size. Using levels of Warblade would probably be better than fighter though, since it could arguably make him retrain his weapon familarity with Double Axe into Spiked Chain.

[PhaedrusXY]

I am now.  I really should've spotted the Armor thing, though, especially as it has come up before.

Still, the slam deals much less damage, although getting an AB high enough might be tricky. +22 attack, +2 charge, +2 flanking, +2 aid another and +2 invisibility... still only nets a 50% chance of success at disarm, even using a True Strike potion. Well, presuming a party of 5, the Aid Another can go up to +8, but that's still a 20% fail chance.

It really doesn't have any other sunderable equipment, unless you go straight for the weapon ( which may be a good idea, and more likely for a Barbarian to do than disarm, really. )

True Strike is personal range. You can't make it into a potion. And go calculate the hit points for a storm giant's weapon, and then come back and say if it is a good idea to try and sunder it. Especially since you have to beat his attack roll, too.

[Senevri]

40 HP is a bit much to sunder in one blow, admittedly.
So, disarm then. I presume there's a ruling on personal spells, as:

You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.

Target:   You

So unless the brewer isn't a creature, it should work. ( automatic breweries can't make TS potions. )
Still, it isn't in the standard list of potions meaning it's a custom magic item, so fair enough, for a strict core-only.
Especially, as you'd need a caster with a brew potion feat to make it...

Still, Enlarge, Haste and Heroism grant +7 benefit, so,
[spoiler]
assumptions: Party of 5,
str 20, +2 item, raging +4, total 26.
+2 weapon (via oil if necessary),
4 aid anothers +8, flanking +2, invisible +2 (potion)
Total bonus: +32
Enlarge, Haste, Heroism: large +4, haste +1, heroism +2.
Total bonus +39.

Target bonus: 26+8 (huge) = +34
[/spoiler]
 you have a 25% advantage on the disarm during first attempt. With improved disarm, it'd go up to 45%... but it's unlikely a barbarian would have that. Hm.  Use a heavy flail or spiked chain for another +2. ( spiked chain is even a plausible weapon choice, a heavy flail could be carried just in case, but then the use of +2 oil is very likely. )

[PhaedrusXY]

Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

From here, under potions.

[Senevri]

It's nice how all the necessary information is collected in one spot. Wait, no, it isn't. 

[PhaedrusXY]

It's nice how all the necessary information is collected in one spot. Wait, no, it isn't. 

I know... I only knew you couldn't do it because someone else corrected me on it on here once...

[Caelic]

is therefore ready to use again in that turn)."
depends on how DM interprets "that turn" ... current turn(when thrown) or next turn ..... there are several other errors in the build, but the concept might be salvageable

There's really only one valid interpretation here, grammatically speaking; "that turn" references an antecedent, and the only antecedent available is "the creature's next turn."  The fact that "that turn" appears in parenthesis immediately following "the creature's next turn" makes the connection even clearer.

It would be POSSIBLE for a DM to interpret "that turn" as "the wielder's current turn, which is mentioned nowhere else in this discussion," but it would be tossing basic syntax out the window.

[awaken DM golem]

Psi Tattoos don't have the Potion restriction.

Need a Chameleon Crafting feat from Dragon #349.
Or Ph00+KellK's version of Magic Mantle, and more stuff with it.
Or Limited Wish should work.

[BruceLeeroy]

Actually, disarming that storm giant wouldn't be too hard.

Goliath Feat Rogue 2/ Mountain Rage Barbarian 2 / Exoticist Fighter 2/ Any full BAB 4
Str 20 +6(rage) +4 (enhancement) +4 (Augmented Expansion Tattoo) = 34(+12)

+9 BAB, +12 STR, +4 Imp Trip, +2 Exoticist Attack, +10 (+2 Gnomish Swordcatcher wielded in two hands), +12 Size, +2 charge, -3 size = +48

vs the Storm giant's +38. That's with only 3 feats spent on disarming tricks. The Feat Rogue gives evasion, so Chain Lighting probably doesn't help the giant any. Hell, there's room for tripping options in there too, just using a spiked chain. Drops the disarm attempt by two. Some party buffs like haste and heroism more than make up for that.

Sure, not core. But it could beat the hell out of a storm giant without any caster levels. And it's not that specific a build, either. Could be turned into an ubercharger or battlefield control or what-have-you.

[dna1]

whats a gnomish swordcatcher?

[PhaedrusXY]

whats a gnomish swordcatcher?

No kidding. Not specific my ass. I've never even heard of that thing, and without it you're going to have the same bonus as the giant, even with all of that other tweaking.

Disarming a giant = bad idea for most charcters, even badass melee ones. While it is of course possible to build a character that can do it, I certainly wouldn't consider it a "normal" tactic. And even if you succeed... he still has his fists, and he might even have a damned backup weapon, like everyone else does...

[Garryl]

It's from Races of Stone. One-handed exotic weapon, gives a +4 bonus on disarm checks.
Fun fact, unlike Strength bonus and Power Attack damage, Disarm and Sunder don't care how many hands you wield a weapon in, only the type of weapon that it is. Unfortunately, that means you can't get the extra +4 on disarm checks for wielding the Swordcatcher two-handed.

[Lycanthromancer]

Just make yourself a stock-standard Tier 3, and kill it to death.

Psywars, swordsages, crusaders, warblades, and factotums FTW.

[juton]

Just make yourself a stock-standard Tier 3, and kill it to death.

Psywars, swordsages, crusaders, warblades, and factotums FTW.

Thing is I'm not sure every 'stock' Tier 3 has enough power behind it. For instance I think a Factotum might need to abuse poison or it needs to pick up feats useful for power-attacking, the former requires a bit of optimization and the latter probably isn't that common. The Martial Initiators can probably work, at least every other turn, I know there is a maneuver that does +8d8 damage, but in a combat lasting 2 rounds all those classes can only use it once. Saying 'stock' Psywar is like saying stock sorcerer, most of those will be slinging fireballs or lightning bolts, the Psywar can participate but it will require optimization.

[Lycanthromancer]

Just make yourself a stock-standard Tier 3, and kill it to death.

Psywars, swordsages, crusaders, warblades, and factotums FTW.

Thing is I'm not sure every 'stock' Tier 3 has enough power behind it. For instance I think a Factotum might need to abuse poison or it needs to pick up feats useful for power-attacking, the former requires a bit of optimization and the latter probably isn't that common. The Martial Initiators can probably work, at least every other turn, I know there is a maneuver that does +8d8 damage, but in a combat lasting 2 rounds all those classes can only use it once. Saying 'stock' Psywar is like saying stock sorcerer, most of those will be slinging fireballs or lightning bolts, the Psywar can participate but it will require optimization.

Fair, but Tier 3s can easily be optimized in any number of ways to take down equal-CR opponents. Factotums can use Hide + sneak attack, poison abuse, Iaijutsu Focus, UMD/UPD and scrolls/wands/power stones/dorjes, their (Sp)ellcasting (alter self/polymorph in particular), and so on. And a reasonably well-built psywar is death on wheels, even moreso than initiators. Just choose a couple of powers and a small handful of synergistic feats, and there you are.

[BruceLeeroy]

whats a gnomish swordcatcher?

No kidding. Not specific my ass. I've never even heard of that thing, and without it you're going to have the same bonus as the giant, even with all of that other tweaking.

Disarming a giant = bad idea for most charcters, even badass melee ones. While it is of course possible to build a character that can do it, I certainly wouldn't consider it a "normal" tactic. And even if you succeed... he still has his fists, and he might even have a damned backup weapon, like everyone else does...

Heh. That build uses a total of 2 disarm-specific feats and one exotic weapon (which, as Garryl pointed out, is actually worse than using a spiked chain (oops)). Out of a potential (with flaws) 12 feats at level 10, and 4 free exotic weapon profs from exoticist fighter. I didn't even get into the items in the MiC  and various other sources that can put Str-based combat maneuver checks through the roof.

As far as it being a valid tactic? Well, the giant's fists are pretty much useless as damage dealers (1d6+14, can't PA effectively), he gets one less attack on a full attack, and drawing a backup weapon is only going to get it disarmed as well, on top of costing a move action. I would call that a pretty good debuff.

The real bonuses being used here are the size ones, from expansion + mountain rage. Same setup could be used to grapple the shit outta the storm giant, or whatever.

Anyways, all I was trying to point out is that the encounters cited by the OP aren't nearly as hard as his numbers would imply. The only reason a melee character should have a problem with a melee fight out of the MM is that the player is dumb and built a shitty character. Once you throw encounters like a goddamn dragon into the mix, well, then the melee guy is now probably boned, assuming the DM plays the dragon(or other versatile spellslinger) smart.

[Sunic_Flames]

His argument was about core only. Your arguments are invalid.

[carnivore]

his argument also had this:

"assuming that we are dealing with a 4 member party, and that the party and the monsters are focused on doing HP damage to one another. I'm also assuming a complete lack tactics other than stab the baddy, and that the party's tank absorbs all the damage from the monster."

but if the party does its part .... the Tank Should survive .... the builds that have been submitted could all survive easily... especially if they boost thier damage output, so the Party only has to do minimum damage, or do you think the Wizard or Cleric in a CORE only setting cant keep up with the Tank? within this exercise, the tank just needs to boost his output a Little to allow the rest of the party to easily pick up the slack

i would say the Party makeup should be:

Wizard
Cleric
Rogue
"Tank".... then make the Tank Build that can survive keeping the Enemy occupied while everyone else unloads on it