Vow of Poverty

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Cloistered Cleric 1 /Human paragon 2 is probably the best method, since the earlier you take VoP the better.

Level 1: Heretic of the Faith (choose some cool alternate domain for your cleric)
Human Bonus: Sacred Vow
Human Paragon2: Vow of Poverty

No flaws needed.  You still lose two of the exalted feats, but that doesn't really matter at all.

[Benly]

Does Heretic Of The Faith technically work on VoP, though? It's not exactly "your deity's code of conduct" unless all clerics/paladins/whateveryouare of your god take vows of poverty.

AS stated for grey guard, get VoP via Class bonus Feats. That was it falls under "Class abilities".

Yeah, but Heretic of the Faith specifically protects you from consequences for breaking "your deity's code of conduct". If clerics of Foobar don't have to maintain poverty, you can be breaking a Vow of Poverty without breaking your deity's code of conduct and Heretic wouldn't protect you - it's pretty specific about only protecting you from breaches of the deity's code of conduct that would make a cleric lose his powers.

Obvious workaround: make your character a member of a mendicant order for whom vows of poverty are the standard, and then make him a heretic to that order. Splinters of ascetic orders that figure out workarounds to accumulate wealth are unsurprisingly common. The logical route to that would probably be to take VoP first and Heretic afterwards, since it could be a hard sell to take a Vow of Poverty after you've declared your heresy that poverty is unnecessary. This does mean two levels of actually suffering the restrictions of Vow of Poverty, but VoP actually isn't all that bad at level 1-2 anyway since it's not like you'd have great equipment without it.

[Endarire]

How do you get Vow of Poverty as a class bonus feat?

[jojolagger]

How do you get Vow of Poverty as a class bonus feat?

Please see Human paragon 2 at top of page, or some PrC's I've seen (Can't remember names)

[Echoes]

Yeah I think the goliath nets an extra +2 con and +4 strength (+2 from goliath and an extra +2 when mountain raging).  so really that's an extra + 1 HP/level and + 2 attack/damage.

Note that Mountain Rage increases your size category, meaning you get +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 NA, and -1 attack/AC while it's up on top of your rage bonuses. Yeah, it's kinda good.

With +1 LA for free and LA buyoff ... Half-Minotaur Goliath Barbarian 1. Natively, you're Large (and count as Huge when it would benefit you). When you rage, you become Huge for real, and gain the stat adjustments. With an 18 in Str, your base Str should be around 34 or so. When you rage, you should go to 48. That's naked at level 2 (after LA buyoff). If you can stand the extra LA and waiting to buy it off, Feral Half-Minotaur Goliath pretty much rocks the house. Huge Str and Con, 2 primary claws and a secondary gore, pounce, fast healing, rend and rakes eventually. The major downside: your Dex and Int get tanked. Hard. Don't count on being smart or quick, but damn if you aren't a bruiser.

[weenog]

Note that Mountain Rage increases your size category, meaning you get +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 NA, and -1 attack/AC while it's up on top of your rage bonuses. Yeah, it's kinda good.

No, you get that from a size increase from gaining HD.

When you rage, you become Huge for real, and gain the stat adjustments.

Also no.  Mountain Rage makes you Large, not 1 size larger than you are.


In fact just re-read all the rulebooks involved in this, it'd be simpler than correcting all the individual mistakes in that pile.

[Bauglir]

Yeah, I don't think Heretic of the Faith really works for VoP. It only protects you when you violate your deity's code of conduct. You don't lose VoP for breaking your deity's code of conduct unless you gained VoP BECAUSE you follow your deity's code of conduct. Even if the same action violates VoP and your deity's code of conduct, the two restrict you independently, so even though you can violate your deity's code of conduct with impunity, you cannot violate VoP's code with impunity.

Greyguard still works, though, since it works on class-granted codes of conduct, which VoP is if you get it from a class bonus feat.

[Benly]

Yeah, I don't think Heretic of the Faith really works for VoP. It only protects you when you violate your deity's code of conduct. You don't lose VoP for breaking your deity's code of conduct unless you gained VoP BECAUSE you follow your deity's code of conduct. Even if the same action violates VoP and your deity's code of conduct, the two restrict you independently, so even though you can violate your deity's code of conduct with impunity, you cannot violate VoP's code with impunity.

Greyguard still works, though, since it works on class-granted codes of conduct, which VoP is if you get it from a class bonus feat.

This is why I suggested the "mendicant order" thing. If you can make maintaining the VOP part of your clerical code of conduct, Heretic of the Faith should work, but it would basically require your DM being willing to go along with it - it's not quite a houserule, but it requires some liberal interpretation. Of course, any kind of attempt to dodge VOP requirements while gaining benefits essentially requires your DM being willing to go along with it anyway.

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

a-ah-aaah-AAH-AAAACHOOOO!

Sorry... Lactose intolerant...

[weenog]

a-ah-aaah-AAH-AAAACHOOOO!

Sorry... Lactose intolerant...

That doesn't make you sneeze, it makes you shit and fart a lot.  Wouldn't have been terribly witty even if it were accurate.

[Bauglir]

a-ah-aaah-AAH-AAAACHOOOO!

Sorry... Lactose intolerant...

That doesn't make you sneeze, it makes you shit and fart a lot.  Wouldn't have been terribly witty even if it were accurate.

Also the really stinky cheeses have practically no lactose due to their aging processes. Yes, I'm just being a dick.

But anyway. The mendicant order thing is arguable, I suppose, but I'd still argue that since your deity's code of conduct exists independently of the feat, even if the two have identical rules, Heretic of the Faith doesn't extend to your feat's code of conduct, since it doesn't say it does. I suppose you could argue that taking Vow of Poverty is part of the faith, but even so, it seems like the mechanical restrictions exist separately, even if they are identical. It seems like being a Wizard and taking Battle Blessing, justifying its application to all your spells because you call yourself a Paladin in-game, so all your spells are "paladin spells".

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

My point is that the RAI specifically state that VoP is meant to  offset the usual item heavy DnD play style, not to mention the ultra high standards an Exalted character is supposed to be held to...

Then again, this *is* after all the min/max forum...

[Bauglir]

Oh, yeah, VoP is definitely designed to do that. It just fails hilariously.

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

I dunno, aside from flight as was mentioned, the stats and bonuses seem pretty good to me...

...or am I just naive?

[weenog]

Oh, the stats and bonuses are plenty good, you're much better off having them than not having them.  The problem is, you give up things that are not only much better, but also mandatory to contribute meaningfully, in order to get those stats and bonuses.

It's a nifty feat, but it's not even close to being worth the opportunity cost, even if your DM is a stingy SOB.

[Bauglir]

You're right, the stats ARE good. Slightly better than you'll get without VoP. The problem is that the true power of magic items comes in their versatility and special options. For instance, no matter how high your stats go, a Wounding weapon probably would have been nicer for your average melee combatant. No amount of AC is going to be better than a Shadow Cloak on those 3 attacks per day that you just get to lol at. No amount of Dex is going to be better than a Belt of Battle letting you take a whole extra round's worth of actions. An orange ioun stone is just plain awesome for most casters. And so on.

EDIT: And yeah, it's better if your DM refuses to let you have any choice in magic items and keeps you perpetually underwealthed, but that's only because you're avoiding one of the ways in which you're getting screwed. You still have the problems VoP doesn't solve, but you would've had them anyway.

[jameswilliamogle]

What are the consequences of a VoP Binder?  I'm trying to think of the consequences...  Assuming a level 18 VoP and thus you're able to invest in a +5 tome or two before then. 

So you can't use a +6 enhancement bonus item.  Can't use about +3 in items for DC min/maxing.  So thats +5 in DC boosters you can't use.  On the other hand, you get +8 to your stats, so thats +4 to the DC...  So you only lose +1 to it.

You lose out on a lot of melee tactics you could want to do...  unarmed isn't so bad as you lose +5 to hit, sure, but gain +5 exalted strike.  You also get that touch of Golden Ice or whatever it is as a bonus feat. 

+15 to AC and that all stacks with Savnok armor...

The main thing is that you lose weapons... but it seems like there's plenty still available.  Either go Ronove or Eurynome or crazy natural attack style.

[Sinfire Titan]

I dunno, aside from flight as was mentioned, the stats and bonuses seem pretty good to me...

...or am I just naive?

What you get:

+8 AC
+5 Attack Bonus
Energy Resistances
Etc.

What you are giving up:

A good deal more AC (Deflection bonuses, Armor at all, etc)
Damage bonuses (weapon enhancements)
Healing items (until you get Regen, but that ability is shit by comparison)
Utility Magic Items (Wands of Knock, etc)


Seriously, in DnD it's better to be greedy and buy magic items. Even Druids/Totemists/Incarnates/Binders/Clerics/Etc all give up considerably more than they could buy.

[Maat_Mons]

+15 to AC and that all stacks with Savnok armor...

[jameswilliamogle]

ah.  that does suck a bit.