Vow of Poverty

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Yeah, I don't think Heretic of the Faith really works for VoP. It only protects you when you violate your deity's code of conduct. You don't lose VoP for breaking your deity's code of conduct unless you gained VoP BECAUSE you follow your deity's code of conduct. Even if the same action violates VoP and your deity's code of conduct, the two restrict you independently, so even though you can violate your deity's code of conduct with impunity, you cannot violate VoP's code with impunity.

Aren't exalted feats supernatural entirely because they're granted by a deity?  

So you swear a vow to do X, and your deity gives you power because of that.  How is that not power granted by following your deity's code of conduct?

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

The AC bonus is more like +10.

and yeah my DM rolls all magic randomly from the dmg or if were lucky the mic.  It's also a world in which spellcasting is outlawed save through a cabal of extra planar wizards and the closest we've come to a magic shop is a snarky old gnomish wizard who stocks only what the DM decides and the bastard tries to overcharge us...


Unfortunately the DM and other players are so set in their old school ways that the DM frowns upon any attempt to optimize or even take classes outside of the core books.  My by the book Dragonfire Adept is considered cheesy...

[jojolagger]

and yeah my DM rolls all magic randomly from the dmg or if were lucky the mic.  It's also a world in which spellcasting is outlawed save through a cabal of extra planar wizards and the closest we've come to a magic shop is a snarky old gnomish wizard who stocks only what the DM decides and the bastard tries to overcharge us...

Perhaps a non-spellcasting route to magic items is needed. That means warlock or *twitch* truenamer.

Unfortunately the DM and other players are so set in their old school ways that the DM frowns upon any attempt to optimize or even take classes outside of the core books.  My by the book Dragonfire Adept is considered cheesy...

But core wizard 20 is one of the most cheesy things ever!

[jameswilliamogle]

yeah i think we can cheese it up pretty good in core w/ any class these days.

[Bauglir]

Yeah, I don't think Heretic of the Faith really works for VoP. It only protects you when you violate your deity's code of conduct. You don't lose VoP for breaking your deity's code of conduct unless you gained VoP BECAUSE you follow your deity's code of conduct. Even if the same action violates VoP and your deity's code of conduct, the two restrict you independently, so even though you can violate your deity's code of conduct with impunity, you cannot violate VoP's code with impunity.

Aren't exalted feats supernatural entirely because they're granted by a deity?  

So you swear a vow to do X, and your deity gives you power because of that.  How is that not power granted by following your deity's code of conduct?

Because that's just a fluff explanation. VoP has a list of rules you have to follow in order to benefit; your deity's code of conduct exists completely independently of the restrictions on VoP. Even if the same rules appear on one or the other. Besides, what would you do with an Exalted character who had no deity? I thought that exalted feats just came from your inherent purity and awesomeness, but were supernatural because they gave powers based on spiritual attributes (purity of heart, etc).

I mean, really, I don't see a real difference between saying, "My deity's fluff includes VoP's restrictions as part of its code of conduct, so if I'm protected from consequences of violating my deity's code of conduct, I'm protected from the consequences of violating VoP." and "My character's fluff includes being an in-game paladin (even if his character sheet says Cleric), so if I can quicken all my Paladin spells, I can quicken all the spells I cast."

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You have to have a sponsor, though.  That's why they're (su) and not (ex)

[jojolagger]

Yeah, I don't think Heretic of the Faith really works for VoP. It only protects you when you violate your deity's code of conduct. You don't lose VoP for breaking your deity's code of conduct unless you gained VoP BECAUSE you follow your deity's code of conduct. Even if the same action violates VoP and your deity's code of conduct, the two restrict you independently, so even though you can violate your deity's code of conduct with impunity, you cannot violate VoP's code with impunity.

Aren't exalted feats supernatural entirely because they're granted by a deity?  

So you swear a vow to do X, and your deity gives you power because of that.  How is that not power granted by following your deity's code of conduct?

Because that's just a fluff explanation. VoP has a list of rules you have to follow in order to benefit; your deity's code of conduct exists completely independently of the restrictions on VoP. Even if the same rules appear on one or the other. Besides, what would you do with an Exalted character who had no deity? I thought that exalted feats just came from your inherent purity and awesomeness, but were supernatural because they gave powers based on spiritual attributes (purity of heart, etc).

I mean, really, I don't see a real difference between saying, "My deity's fluff includes VoP's restrictions as part of its code of conduct, so if I'm protected from consequences of violating my deity's code of conduct, I'm protected from the consequences of violating VoP." and "My character's fluff includes being an in-game paladin (even if his character sheet says Cleric), so if I can quicken all my Paladin spells, I can quicken all the spells I cast."

All vows are sworn to a good deity or good cause, as per Scared vow. A vow sworn to a god is a person specific code of conduct.

[Bauglir]

You have to have a sponsor, though.  That's why they're (su) and not (ex)

Well, looking at the entry for Exalted Feats in the BoED, you're right, even if that is a fucking stupid justification for it (the correct justification is, "These are supernatural powers, because no matter how much ass you kick, arrows swerving aside because you're just so nice is not something that can happen without magic."). Still, the thing is, the requirements for a Vow exist completely independently of a deity's code of conduct; you can adhere to one without adhering to the other, and you can gain Exalted feats from entities other than gods. "Have Vow of Poverty" is not a thing on any deity's code of conduct, even if "Follow all the rules in Vow of Poverty" is. Even if it were, you weren't granted Vow of Poverty by following the code of conduct, you just happen to be adhering to both; so while you're protected from the consequences of violating the code of conduct (losing access to class features dependent on adhering to it), you still suffer the consequences of violating Vow of Poverty (losing access to Vow of Poverty), because those restrictions exist in the feat independently of the deity's code of conduct, and Heretic of the Faith does NOT protect you from the consequences of violating a feat's code of conduct.

Put another way.
Let A = following your deity's code of conduct.
Let B = following Vow of Poverty's code of conduct.
Let C = keeping your class features dependent on obeying your deity.
Let D = keeping the benefits of Vow of Poverty.

Not A -> Not C
Not B -> Not D

Ordinarily, all B is within A, and all D is within C, so the second rule is unnecessary, even though it's still true. However, Heretic of the Faith deletes the first rule. It does nothing to the second, though, which continues to operate.

Yeah, I don't think Heretic of the Faith really works for VoP. It only protects you when you violate your deity's code of conduct. You don't lose VoP for breaking your deity's code of conduct unless you gained VoP BECAUSE you follow your deity's code of conduct. Even if the same action violates VoP and your deity's code of conduct, the two restrict you independently, so even though you can violate your deity's code of conduct with impunity, you cannot violate VoP's code with impunity.

Aren't exalted feats supernatural entirely because they're granted by a deity?  

So you swear a vow to do X, and your deity gives you power because of that.  How is that not power granted by following your deity's code of conduct?

Because that's just a fluff explanation. VoP has a list of rules you have to follow in order to benefit; your deity's code of conduct exists completely independently of the restrictions on VoP. Even if the same rules appear on one or the other. Besides, what would you do with an Exalted character who had no deity? I thought that exalted feats just came from your inherent purity and awesomeness, but were supernatural because they gave powers based on spiritual attributes (purity of heart, etc).

I mean, really, I don't see a real difference between saying, "My deity's fluff includes VoP's restrictions as part of its code of conduct, so if I'm protected from consequences of violating my deity's code of conduct, I'm protected from the consequences of violating VoP." and "My character's fluff includes being an in-game paladin (even if his character sheet says Cleric), so if I can quicken all my Paladin spells, I can quicken all the spells I cast."

All vows are sworn to a good deity or good cause, as per Scared vow. A vow sworn to a god is a person specific code of conduct.

Yes, it is a person-specific code of conduct, in exactly the same way that a Cleric who fights a lot is a paladin. Do Clerics need to start taking Battle Blessing? Besides, it's a code of conduct, sure, but it's not the deity's code of conduct; a deity's code of conduct applies equally to all its followers.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Not really.  If Pelor says "hey dude you're a paladin don't use poison kthx", and to another guy "hey dude you're a cleric don't cast [evil] spells kthx", and to another guy "hey dude you're an adept because I don't like your hairstyle kthx", he's given the first two dudes codes of conduct.  If the then goes to a fourth dude and says "hey your tats are pretty cool, don't cover them up with armor kthx", it'd still be a code of conduct.


That said, you could just gain it from wonderworker or sword of righteousness (which have the whole nine yards of "violate this and face atonement") so whatever.

[sir_argenon]

all i know is.. with the exception of maybe 3-4 of them.... exalted feats suck really really badly.

[Bauglir]

Not really.  If Pelor says "hey dude you're a paladin don't use poison kthx", and to another guy "hey dude you're a cleric don't cast [evil] spells kthx", and to another guy "hey dude you're an adept because I don't like your hairstyle kthx", he's given the first two dudes codes of conduct.  If the then goes to a fourth dude and says "hey your tats are pretty cool, don't cover them up with armor kthx", it'd still be a code of conduct.


That said, you could just gain it from wonderworker or sword of righteousness (which have the whole nine yards of "violate this and face atonement") so whatever.

Well, except, deities have codes of conduct as parts of their faith. Followers of Pelor aren't supposed to raise EDIT: animate the dead, stuff like that. There's a difference between a request and a code of conduct. But you're right, "code of conduct" is poorly defined outside of classes such as paladins that have class-specific codes; a deity's code of conduct is usually awfully vague, with a few exceptions, so whatever.

The thing is, I'm still not seeing what makes it so that the restrictions on your character from VoP can be ignored. I mean, to be blunt, the Heretic of the Faith feat doesn't say it affects codes of conduct associated with feats, which is an additional stipulation the feat provides, regardless of what your deity's code of conduct is. Like I said, even if you can ignore "not A -> not C", you still have to deal with "not B -> not D".

The only reason Greyguard works is because it's a blank check that says you don't lose your class abilities as long as you're pursuing a just cause, PERIOD (incidentally, negative level avoiding loophole?). There's a mechanical link between "class abilities" and Vow of Poverty if you're granted Vow of Poverty as a class feature.

There's no mechanical link between having Vow of Poverty and having a god that demands poverty of his followers, even if the fluff says that because you forsake material goods, you get superpowers. Any more than there's a mechanical link between having Cleric spells and using Battle Blessing, even if the fluff says that because you crusade in the name of your god and all that's right and holy, you're a paladin.

[Azoriel]

That feat is transcribed incorrectly from the book.

The original prerequisite line reads as follows:

Prerequisite: Patron deity and either divine spellcasting ability or code of conduct class ability.

(Underlining mine)

Thus, "code of conduct" is defined as its own class ability.  If you have "code of conduct", it should be spelled out in your class abilities specifically as a "code of conduct".  Example:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if...

This is more-or-less what that line in the feat was intended for.  There is also one more PHB class that received the "code of conduct" class ability through shoddy writing:

Ex-Clerics A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct

(again, underlining mine)

(That's a pretty disgusting way to insert a "class ability", but at least it defines what that ability is.)

Since code of conduct is defined as a its own ability, the phrase "You can grossly violate your deity's code of conduct..." does not let you violate your exalted feats, as the behavioral requirements for each exalted feat do not explicitly identify themselves as codes of conduct.

[Benly]

There's no mechanical link between having Vow of Poverty and having a god that demands poverty of his followers, even if the fluff says that because you forsake material goods, you get superpowers. Any more than there's a mechanical link between having Cleric spells and using Battle Blessing, even if the fluff says that because you crusade in the name of your god and all that's right and holy, you're a paladin.

There would be a mechanical link if there was an order which demanded that its members maintain an actual, supernatural-juiced Vow of Poverty, which is what I was suggesting. There are no specific limitations on what a cleric's code of conduct can or can't be, so if you managed to sell the DM on the idea of an order whose code of conduct required maintaining good VoP standing and if the DM was also okay with you starting a heresy which permitted the violation of a vow of poverty having been a member of that order, Heretic Of The Faith could let you get VoP benefits without maintaining poverty. Of course, this is just barely this side of DM fiat, since it relies on the DM approving certain worldsetting elements as well as approving your particular heresy for use.

[Amechra]

Question: would getting VoP from that Elder Good in Eberron count as part of your religious code of conduct, and thus be protected from VoP losing?

Consider a level of cleric to skip HotF, which is one of my all-time favorite feats.

And thanks for the cookie.

Prostitute (to Paladin with Vow of Chastity and HotF): Hey good lookin' want a good time?
Paladin: Ummmmm...
(Looks at his God. God smiles and gives a thumb up.)
Paladin: It's OK with my Deity, so yep!

Heretic of the Faith: it let's Paladins have sex.

(Actually, Paladin Prostitutes would be jawesome; all that Charisma, and absobloodylutely no chance of getting STDs. Wait, what was the name of that Chaotic Good Deity from BoED that teaches that sex is OK?)

[jojolagger]

Prostitute (to Paladin with Vow of Chastity and HotF): Hey good lookin' want a good time?
Paladin: Ummmmm...
(Looks at his God. God smiles and gives a thumb up.)
Paladin: It's OK with my Deity, so yep!

Even better when another character is playing a de-throned god or if the players have divine rank and the paladin's god is another PC.

[jameswilliamogle]

all i know is.. with the exception of maybe 3-4 of them.... exalted feats suck really really badly.

Yeah they do.  Never take VoP until 18th level until you can get your inherent bonuses and a bunch of stuff that can't be undone.  Take Touch of Golden Ice as the immediate bonus feat.  That's the only two worth taking.  (Works very well w/ a psion and paying for psychic churergery)

[Bauglir]

There's no mechanical link between having Vow of Poverty and having a god that demands poverty of his followers, even if the fluff says that because you forsake material goods, you get superpowers. Any more than there's a mechanical link between having Cleric spells and using Battle Blessing, even if the fluff says that because you crusade in the name of your god and all that's right and holy, you're a paladin.

There would be a mechanical link if there was an order which demanded that its members maintain an actual, supernatural-juiced Vow of Poverty, which is what I was suggesting. There are no specific limitations on what a cleric's code of conduct can or can't be, so if you managed to sell the DM on the idea of an order whose code of conduct required maintaining good VoP standing and if the DM was also okay with you starting a heresy which permitted the violation of a vow of poverty having been a member of that order, Heretic Of The Faith could let you get VoP benefits without maintaining poverty. Of course, this is just barely this side of DM fiat, since it relies on the DM approving certain worldsetting elements as well as approving your particular heresy for use.

I'm still not sure that's an actual link. I mean, you're taking Vow of Poverty to adhere to the code of conduct, you're not gaining Vow of Poverty BECAUSE you're following the code of conduct, if you see what I mean. Still, I think between the Elder Good and Azoriel's post it's probably possible to work something out.

A Paladin in Faerun has to have a god, and gains additions to their codes based on the god they choose. Choose the Elder Good, and a side effect of devoting yourself to it is VoP; because devoting yourself to the Elder Good qualifies as a class feature because of your Paladin code (which arguably doesn't work for a cleric since they don't have a class feature called "code of conduct", so their code is not, itself, a class ability they're protected from losing, even though they have one they have to keep to), I think it might work. If you can talk your DM into counting VoP's restrictions as part of your code of conduct rather than just special restrictions on the feat.

[weenog]

What are the consequences of a VoP Binder?  I'm trying to think of the consequences...  Assuming a level 18 VoP and thus you're able to invest in a +5 tome or two before then. 

all i know is.. with the exception of maybe 3-4 of them.... exalted feats suck really really badly.

Yeah they do.  Never take VoP until 18th level until you can get your inherent bonuses and a bunch of stuff that can't be undone. 

How many DMs do you really expect to let you take Vow of Poverty after you've already gotten rid of all your money by spending it on permanent buffs?

[something random]

What are the consequences of a VoP Binder?  I'm trying to think of the consequences...  Assuming a level 18 VoP and thus you're able to invest in a +5 tome or two before then. 

all i know is.. with the exception of maybe 3-4 of them.... exalted feats suck really really badly.

Yeah they do.  Never take VoP until 18th level until you can get your inherent bonuses and a bunch of stuff that can't be undone. 

How many DMs do you really expect to let you take Vow of Poverty after you've already gotten rid of all your money by spending it on permanent buffs?

How many DMs do you expect to allow the VOP HotF stuff to work?

[jameswilliamogle]

Heh, "Min/Max"?  Anyways, do you think people joining the nunnery don't sell off their possessions and give some stuff to their family before they do?  Its a good question, though...

I've encountered exactly two 3.5 DMs that would let this stuff fly (I've only played with six in 3.5 ed total).  One also allowed Venerable White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer cheese.  And Bloodline / Binder + PrC / Ardent / alt Anima Mage cheese.  And had a house rule allowing Clerics to spontaneously cast anything from their spell list.  These were RL games, too.

So, yeah, this stuff is worth talking about.