The end all binder....

[mBelchezere]

Okay so here's my conundrum guys....I have an upcoming arena battle planned with my brother, our other brother is DMing, and I am at a wall w/o a wand or staff of passwall available, it seems.

The challenge: Can a 20th lvl focused Binder defeat a 20th lvl devoted spell caster?

We are building 20th lvl gestalted characters. The rules laid down are as follows...
1. All books that are in DnD and attached to the entire d20 system are allowed including AEG, Green Ronin and so on...also magazines, but all must be published in written form to be allowable as a pdf
2. Any template with a LA is allowed however LA and HD count as class lvls
3. Any race is allowed as a PC as long it has an LA but applied just as rule 2
4. Any class and Prestige class are allowed as long as you meet the prereq's
5. We are using the uuber elite array for our base stats before mod 2-20's 2-18's 2-16's and one stat can be lowered by 2 to up another by 2
6. We are not allowing miracle but wish is available however strictly and literally monitored
7. We will have 3 rounds upon starting the match to prepare
8. we will be battling in a sphere that is 400ft in diameter but filled half way with dirt
9. We have the starting gold, as described in the DMG, for our class lvl and can purchase any item we can afford from any Item list, book, etc.
10.We are not allowed to use anything epic even if we qualify...example: A Venerable Dragon wrought kobold automatically qualifies for epic feats

Now that this has been established here's my problem...I wish to be able to cram as many vestiges inside of myself as I possibly can, I need to have great saves that I can hopefully use my CHA mod as the base for or find a way to add my mod to them, I need to have an outrageous CHA score for all of my plans to work and I also need a very good CON. It has been threatened that prismatic spheres and effects will be used and also that an anti-magic field will be brought into the battle as well as massive force effects including but not limited to damage and imprisonment. Recently something has been said about a Dread Witch build to be able to scare me to death with no save SR, DR, or immunity. I need to find a way to make myself almost completely invulnerable or at least very prepared for these problems especially since an anti-magic field will almost completely shut me down and my brothers PrC will allow him to still cast in his AMF. This is my first Arena Battle and I really don't want to lose to him. I know that in DnD a spell caster is the worst possible enemy you can face at higher lvls, especially if they are devoted and prepared to some extent...I'm just trying to prove that my favorite class, the Binder stands a good chance against such a foe. Please help?! Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.

I should also mention that yes I have read and also have the Consolidated Binder handbook bookmarked, but I need good if not better ideas for the immunities or precautionary measures I need to take plus CHA mod feats so I can add CHA to almost everything. Hopefully you'll give me a serious look and not just write me off...please I seriously need some help here?!?!?!

[Solo]

Take a level of Marshal.

[Zaxter]

I hate to say it, but I don't think the Binder does stand a chance against such a foe. However, you did mention that the characters are gestalt. What were you planning on taking on the other side? You could use those levels to boost your saves or get other defenses (paladin of slaughter/hexblade/blackguard gets 3*cha to saves against spells and mettle, for example).

If you're against getting any spellcasting for yourself, you might at least consider binding Karsus and using staffs/wands/scrolls to get some good buffs for the prep rounds. Things like Mind Blank (which Binders get for free), Freedom of Movement, and True Seeing counter huge numbers of spells, which makes them pretty good for arena combat.

Also, if your brother is using the Dread Witch PrC, you probably don't have to worry about that "scare you to death" bit. As stated before, Binders get Mind Blank as a class feature at level 19. Dread Witches can bypass immunity to fear, but not mind blanks (you may have to do some rules lawyering to make that clear).

[mBelchezere]

thanks for the ideas. I was trying to use the other side as fully as possible for PrC's and defenses I did want to take some low lvl templates to increase my CHA and give me some neat things like unearthly grace and divine grace to up my ac and such but I'm pretty much opened to any suggestions for my other side but yes one side is just the full 20 on the binder. Also I was just recently considering that having as immediate actions as I possibly can wouldn't hurt. Just not quite sure how to get those, and yes I'm also trying to stay with in the original challenge so that I won't be casting spells but utilizing the heck out of my SU and EX abilities as well as whatever my vestiges give me. I'm trying to be the best versatilist (own word for the binder;) ) I possibly can. I also have every other vestige out there created by anyone and have cleared them all.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

your're going to need some serious firepower to go up against a 20th caster with a binder, now don't get me wrong, Binder is one of my favorite classes, but it's no wizard...

 Binder20//black ethergaunt20                    you can hangout on the etherial plane, and spam binder abilities(Zceryll's summon monster as a 20th lvl Sorcerer)
(leaves room forPRC's(KoSS))   LA buyoff allowed?- reason being Black ethergaunt casts as 17th lvl wizard, so if u can buy off....
also with the black ethergaunt's Total Vision ability, he can "discern all objects within 40 feet, even through the mask that hides its face..." would this get around the SCM's illusions? esp tricky, if he has his illusions at over 100% "real"- whatever that means...
what about cohorts? leadership? blowing your entire wealth by level to hire help for one day allowed?

 Binder20//Druid5,Planar Shepherd10,Druid5: pick the region of dreams for the 10-1 time ratio: again spam binder abilities(30 rounds buff time while he gets 3 ha)
                               that's 6 uses of Zceryll's summoning + all your daily wildshape uses for outsider sp, or su's + some summon nature's ally 9's maybe?
Initiate of Nature feat lets you rebuke plants + that vestige that can rebuke, could fuel some Divine MetaMagic....
venerable dragonwrought kobold if you need the +3 to mental stats....
Divine Minion Template at LA +1 to add 11HD worth of wildshape on the druid side, this puts over 30HD outsiders / dragons into range
wait, with abberant wildshape you can Wildshape into a black ethergaunt if need be-
also an animagic field only has a range of 10ft, maybe you can use that dirt and elder earth elementals to bury him(remember10-1 time ratio)

edit: you could creative with this, focusing on spells/abilities that net you more actions/round, that also can outlast a wizard in an encounter
 like the time ratio abuse + summoned pixies flying around dumping out water..(whats that item that never runs out of water?) hang out on the etherial plane
or burrowing as a wildshaped longhorn minotaur(swims through earth) wait for the enemy to drown in the quicksand..
box him in with walls of force, (fill with water),
throw eversmoking bottles everywhere so you can't see his fear attacks, and he cant see you... you can't see his illusions
combine invisible spell with summon spells
point is 30(29) rounds should be plenty of time to set up shenanigans

[kabof]

Binder 20//Bariaur 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Feat Rogue 2/Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Blackguard 2/7 LA woth of templates that can pump Cha

- Evasion and Mettle;
- Cha x3 to saves against spells and SLA;
- Pride Domain (rerolls 1 on saving throws);
- SR 31.

The problem is that this build is kind of passive: the caster may have some troubles killing you, but that does not mean that he'll be easier to kill.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

i posted something similar to this for your original question, but just to have it all in one place (modified after your situation was clarified)
Binder20//Archivist4,Anima Mage10(divine variant), Tenebrous Apostate5,Tainted Sorcerer1
EBL35
cast any spell in the game(archivist)
Tainted Sorcerer + the rebuking vestige for endless metamagic

if you can convince the DM to let you spend your Wealth by Level on undead stuff...(black sand, unholy arrows, great things to be haunt shifted etc...)
Binder20//Dread Necromancer20   or Binder20//Dread Necromancer8, whatever PrC's that are better (PrC palladin1(of..tyranny)=all wiz spells spontaneously
would be interesting if you can start with a massive undead army firing unholy arrows(whats his alignment?)and flying around dropping black sand everywhere
scratch that your fear effects would make him stronger...
still i would enjoy this in a campaign....

[snakeman830]

I know you don't want to use scrolls or such, but a scroll of Disjunction looks like it's necessary to open with just to get rid of that AMF.

Failing that, see if any of the monsters on the Sumon Monster list have Wall of Force as a spell-like ability.  AMF specifically does not suppress it.  It might be a lifesaver.  Also look for any with ranged attacks or buffs that can be applied to you.

[Ithamar]

Binder 20 || Ghost 5 / Evolved Undead 15 -> Huge CHA, use Telekinesis to great effect, super high AC.  Drop a few levels of Evolved if you want to stack on Paladin or Hexblade levels.

Alternately go with Monster of Legend (+7 LA) and take the continuous Spell Turning ability.  Then boost your saves via other means.  You're impervious to targeted spells, and anything that allows a save you can easily beat.

[PhaedrusXY]

JamesWilliamOgle had some interesting ideas about a binder here that you should definitely dig around and find. They'd probably defeat all but the most insane TO casters, IIRC.

[Ithamar]

I think you mean this one:  Raging / Intimidating Binder?  That does seem like a decent start.  Especially in gestalt could be paired with some nice and powerful options.

[dna1]

From his post it sounds like the challenge is to beat his brother without adding any arcane classes on his character.

Afew ideas came to mind, I was also thinking druid/planar shepard as someone above mentioned. Also the instant rage/intimidating rage might be usefull to interrupt a key spell your brother is casting.

And going off of Ithamar's idea, a monster of legend could be nice...


All that being said, I dont know jack about binders. 

[PhaedrusXY]

Also the instant rage/intimidating rage might be usefull to interrupt a key spell your brother is casting.

IIRC it was a LOT more potent than that. Due to Imperious Command (or whatever lets you use Intimidate instead of Diplomacy), you could basically turn someone fanatical as an immediate action with a high enough Intimidate check.  

[jameswilliamogle]

I never got a chance to play that build...  le sigh...

[Saxony]

i posted something similar to this for your original question, but just to have it all in one place (modified after your situation was clarified)
Binder20//Archivist4,Anima Mage10(divine variant), Tenebrous Apostate5,Tainted Sorcerer1
EBL35

Technically, you can't use dual progression Prestige Classes that way. If you have two classes which offer the same thing (Binding), you take the faster of the progressions. The Gestalt rules in UA straight up forbid dual progression prestiges classes on top of it all.

It is a variant rule in a splatbook and is therefore even more mutable than regular DnD stuff. I'd run this trick by the group beforehand.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

i posted something similar to this for your original question, but just to have it all in one place (modified after your situation was clarified)
Binder20//Archivist4,Anima Mage10(divine variant), Tenebrous Apostate5,Tainted Sorcerer1
EBL35

Technically, you can't use dual progression Prestige Classes that way. If you have two classes which offer the same thing (Binding), you take the faster of the progressions. The Gestalt rules in UA straight up forbid dual progression prestiges classes on top of it all.

It is a variant rule in a splatbook and is therefore even more mutable than regular DnD stuff. I'd run this trick by the group beforehand.

ya, my bad.... I threw that build together quickly, using my groups loose interpretation of stacking abilites(habit), we play so that if the ability says it stacks, it stacks, like wildshape HD(only), sneak attack etc...

@ mBelchezere  :  so... strict RAW gestalt rules? or....

[daken201]

actually the rules are prety loose when it comes to gestalt for us...I'm playing the wizard. the way we are playing it is that yes the dual classes can be taken but only one side progresses. so you would have to pick one. prestiege classes can be taken on both sides at once and anything that says +1 caster level....stacks.

To make this fair i am playing a black ethergaunt with factotum on one side for 11 levels and incantrix for 10. the build will be black enthergaunt 16, factotum 4//la3, factotum 7, incantrix 10. i will be buying off one of the la at 12.

[fuinjutsu]

factotum/black ethergaunt.....  You're getting to to play that?   *green eyed monster*

[daken201]

yes yes yes. i know but he is the one that set the rules...not me. lol. he has acsess to the tome of secrets and the classes therein by the way. also has villins of pact magic.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

so would there be any benefit to have an EBL over 20 if not using epic?