Author Topic: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue  (Read 10676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2010, 08:23:56 PM »
so even with (potentially smaller) modifiers someone in the party is probably going to go first.
And they have to be able to kill or incapacitate the wizard in one round, who is 4 levels higher than them, for that to matter. So a lot of it comes down to pre-cast buffs, and specifics of the encounter set-up.

Look at it this way: Since we're talking about a party facing off vs. a solo character 4 levels higher than them, do you think that a wizard 10 is an appropriate challenge for a 6th level party? Even the DMG guidelines say this is asking for a TPK, and I think we all know that wizards, with even moderate optimization, are above what their CR indicates as far as power level.

If we have both sides prebuffing and if we have a team that works together I think the party has a shot. EBT is really hard to deal with at level 6 though, the spell casters could dispel it, the Cleric could have the travel domain and just walk through it but it would incapacitate most of the party. The fighter and the rogue could ready an action to attack the wizard, assuming they won initiative and he's not invisible, but that probably means the rogue loses his sneak attack (the Rogue tumbles into his square so that even if he 5 foots away he is still threatened.)

Echoes

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2010, 09:29:37 PM »
The wizard can also cast Celerity at this point. So if he can survive long enough to not be flat-footed, he'll likely win.

Quote from: SRD
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Casting nerveskitter at the start of combat automagically negates being flat-footed, because it specifically lets you cast it while flat-footed.

As far as Wizard 10 (Grey Elf, Int 24 [16 base + 2 racial + 2 level +4 enhancement) vs. Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard 6 (Fort +10/+10/+4/+4 with decent stats and assuming a +2 item and grapple mods of +6/+11/+5/+3), you can just go EBT (+18 mod, CL 10 wand from familiar) + cloudkill (Fort DC 22). So, on average the Wizard and Rogue are grappled and dead, the Cleric is grappled and takes Con damage, and the Fighter takes some Con damage but isn't grappled. Actually, you have a 60% chance of killing the Cleric and Fighter outright, and that number goes up each round they remain stuck in the cloud. Follow-up, celerity (if you won initiative the old-fashioned way + baleful polymorph the fighter (DC 24 w/ GSF Trans) and wait for the Cleric to die. Or whoever didn't die/get stuck in the cloud of murder-rape.

If by some miracle they both get free of the tentacles, you're still flying and they aren't. So ... yeah.

The fun part is, if you drop the celerity bit, that's all core.
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

Nachofan99

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2010, 10:18:01 PM »
All of that neglects to take into account that the higher level a primary spellcaster is, the more options it has for making opponents' actions completely worthless.

This entire statement neglects what I said about being on the same optimization footing.

4 Pun Puns > 1 Pun Pun with +4 Levels - It doesn't matter that Pun Pun+ 4 levels has more options than 4 regular Pun Puns; whoever goes first basically wins.

Look at the Dragon Fire Adept build that can infinitely use its breath weapon and fly at level 1.  That's just potentially 1 of 4 of the non-Pun Pun party; your non-Pun Pun Wizard is going to 100% of the time neutralize all 4 of the opposition with 1 spell *and* go first?  I don't think so.

Don't want to take it to ridiculous extremes?  Don't want to take RAW to 11?

Then it's an even simpler initiative battle; a battle which a party of 4 within 4 levels of the solo character will *practically always* win by having 4 rolls to 1 roll.  But, 1 character with 1 level of Marshall(Bard/Etc/Etc) makes it that much easier.  4 boosted initiative rolls > 1 boosted initiative roll    If even *1* of the party goes first, then the odds of the solo character +4 drops like a rock - but what about all the possibilities?  All 4 go before?  3 go before?  2 go before?  0 go before?  All 4 go before, AND don't KO the solo? etc.  The solo character is looking at practically no shot of being in a good situation.  This is all before we know ANYTHING about the details of the encounter; just that the party makes 4 initiative rolls to the solo character's 1 roll and there are far more favorable outcomes to the party than the solo.

At every optimization level for D&D 3.5 it's basically Rocket Tag.  This is beyond well known.  4 guys have a much better chance of shooting the first rocket than one guy with 4 bonus levels - and it's entirely possible at practically every single level from 1-20 to arm a character with a rocket (aka a 1 hit KO or potential 1 hit KO) - let alone design an entire group of 4 rocketeers that are optimized to work together.

Since the OP basically was just airing a question, there are no parameters for builds.  The boundaries of optimization are exactly what determines who wins this.

"Core Only" inherently limits non-Wizards.  In Core, only spellcasters get their 1 roll, AoE, KO rockets from first level on.  Most of the classes in Core don't have 1 shot KO's but *can* get rockets if you allow more books.

If you say "everything is open" then 4 Pun Puns > 1 Pun Pun +4 levels.

It's likely that the average game is somewhere in the middle which is going to directly make or break team 1 or team 2 simply based on what is or is not allowed.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2010, 11:19:56 PM »
Except when it's level 6 guys vs. a level 10 guy, the level 6's can't be guaranteed a KO with one shot. What's the marshal going to do? Bleed on him? Much the same for the fighter.

The level 10 guy can, if he gets to go, because he can almost certainly kill most of the lower level party with one spell. Or he can at least guarantee his own survival.

We've also left out many powerful defensive spells like Greater Mirror Image.

[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

weenog

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2010, 11:54:10 PM »
The globe of invulnerability series says the one higher-level wizard doesn't give two shits about the lower-level casters' rockets firecrackers.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2010, 02:56:16 AM »
The globe of invulnerability series says the one higher-level wizard doesn't give two shits about the lower-level casters' rockets firecrackers.
Orb spells still by pass that don't they?
So the lower level mage can still go the evocation counter spell route on that front.
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

Echoes

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2010, 05:05:20 AM »
The globe of invulnerability series says the one higher-level wizard doesn't give two shits about the lower-level casters' rockets firecrackers.
Orb spells still by pass that don't they?
So the lower level mage can still go the evocation counter spell route on that front.

No, the globes just say "X level spells stop here". You're thinking of AMF, which doesn't affect instantaneous conjuration effects, such as wall of stone or the orbs, that are cast outside of the AMF and then brought into it.
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2010, 08:22:26 AM »
I can has Polymorph?

Scrap that, a level 10 wizard should just neutralize the entire party with a wall of force. Level 6 wizards don't have disintegrate, so they have to use fly to get out. When they attempt that, dispelling will solve your problems. If they don't attempt to get out, cloudkill ends their pity little lives.

It's just about crowd control, Sleet storm will also lock down the party, so will black tentacles of awesome.

A 3rd level wizard can also almost certainly take down two level 1s. He would have to have his spells prepared for fighting alone and not doing party help, but between alter self, silent image and invisibility there is enough power to completely lock down the fighter and kill the wizard.

Perhaps at 16th level vs 20th level I could start to see problems for the wizard. Even though he could go crazy with crowd control, the party should have the tools to deal with it.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2010, 11:13:49 AM »
Scrap that, a level 10 wizard should just neutralize the entire party with a wall of force. Level 6 wizards don't have disintegrate, so they have to use fly to get out. When they attempt that, dispelling will solve your problems. If they don't attempt to get out, cloudkill ends their pity little lives.
I've never liked WoF that much, because it has to be a single, flat plane. So unless they're in a cave already, you can't seal them in anything with it.
Quote
A 3rd level wizard can also almost certainly take down two level 1s. He would have to have his spells prepared for fighting alone and not doing party help, but between alter self, silent image and invisibility there is enough power to completely lock down the fighter and kill the wizard.

Perhaps at 16th level vs 20th level I could start to see problems for the wizard. Even though he could go crazy with crowd control, the party should have the tools to deal with it.
I see this backwards from what you've stated. A level 3 vs. two level 1s is a lot less likely to win than a level 17+ vs. level 15s. Many 9th level spells are game changing, and almost assure victory themselves. See Gate, Timestop, and Astral Projection for examples.

The level 3 guy doesn't have that many spells, and most of the ones he has aren't that spectacular. His hit points are also likely low enough that he can still be one-shotted by a decent attack from a level 1, and he might fail some concentration checks if damaged while casting, also.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2010, 03:26:09 PM »
But the wizard at level 1 would almost be worthless, and a level 1 party would have no options for catching someone invisible.

Oh, and when you are invisible in 30 minutes, you can cast a lot of sleep spells.

Ah, I've misunderstood wall of force then, scrap that, it's a terrible spell then. Wall of stone could do it though.

And you are probably right, gate does mean the level 20 wizard can go quite nuts, I'd also almost forgot about shapechange, which can give the wizard unlimited spells per day and other cheese.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2010, 04:18:50 PM »
But the wizard at level 1 would almost be worthless, and a level 1 party would have no options for catching someone invisible.

Oh, and when you are invisible in 30 minutes, you can cast a lot of sleep spells.
You can only cast one. After that, you're visible, because it's an attack. Also, Invisibility only lasts 1 minute per level.

You can summon things without breaking your Invisibility, but the enemy party will be able to hear your casting, and might even be able to pinpoint your location. (IIRC they need to be the DC by 20, and the DC is 0). There are also cheap alchemical ways to deal with invisibility that are affordable at level 1, but I wouldn't count on most 1st level characters spending money on them. If ToB is involved, they could have Hunter's Stance for scent, though, and anyone could just buy a (riding) dog. Wizards could have a bat familiar, and druids could have some companion with scent, also. And a mule costs 8 gold pieces, and has scent. So bring on the fleet of trained attack mules.
Quote
And you are probably right, gate does mean the level 20 wizard can go quite nuts, I'd also almost forgot about shapechange, which can give the wizard unlimited spells per day and other cheese.
And Moment of Prescience + Foresight + Celerity + Timestop means you go first, and you can spam enough insane spells to kill nearly anything before it even gets to act, including some gods.

Yeah... Gate is completely insane. 2xCL in hit dice means you can call crap like this. Or a 40 HD half-fiend dragon, etc.

So I think the wiz17 is almost certainly going to win against a party of 15s, assuming moderate optimization levels on both sides.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Echoes

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 476
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2010, 04:40:09 PM »
Heck, even celerity -> time stop (shared) + shapechange (shared) + forcecage on the enemy. Have your familiar turn into a beholder and look at the forcecage. Unless the victim has (Ex) teleportation (shadow jaunt/stride/blink) he's stuck while you decide how best to kill him.
BrokeAndDrive speaks the Truth (linked for great justice and signature limits)

Quotes I Found Entertaining:

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

As a general rule, murdering people and taking their stuff is pretty much superior to breaking their stuff, murdering them, then not having any stuff to take.

Out of Context Theater
[spoiler]
Oh I'll make a party. I'll make a party so hard... I'll make a party that makes you feel so awkward downstairs.

You'll see the party and only be able to respond, "Oh yeah baby."
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2010, 05:16:24 PM »
I've always wondered about the Dream Larva's "Worst Nightmare" ability.  My characters, quite sensibly, are scared the crap out of by the idea of an epic sharn.  But sharns have archetypical form and polymorph immunity.  Would the dream larva just explode when first viewed?
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

weenog

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1706
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2010, 05:22:49 PM »
I've always wondered about the Dream Larva's "Worst Nightmare" ability.  My characters, quite sensibly, are scared the crap out of by the idea of an epic sharn.  But sharns have archetypical form and polymorph immunity.  Would the dream larva just explode when first viewed?
I wonder what would happen if the thing that scares the character most is other characters rejecting him.  Say, one of the rare dragon shamans that worships and serves an individual true dragon directly, whose worst nightmare would be his patron calling him a disappointment and declaring his services will no longer be required, and then as a follow-up blow his maybe-girlfriend ally deciding to leave the party because she doesn't want to be around him anymore.
"We managed to make an NPC puke an undead monster."
"That sounds like a victory to me."

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2010, 06:05:36 PM »
I've always wondered about the Dream Larva's "Worst Nightmare" ability.  My characters, quite sensibly, are scared the crap out of by the idea of an epic sharn.  But sharns have archetypical form and polymorph immunity.  Would the dream larva just explode when first viewed?
I wonder what would happen if the thing that scares the character most is other characters rejecting him.  Say, one of the rare dragon shamans that worships and serves an individual true dragon directly, whose worst nightmare would be his patron calling him a disappointment and declaring his services will no longer be required, and then as a follow-up blow his maybe-girlfriend ally deciding to leave the party because she doesn't want to be around him anymore.
They'd just die, like everyone else who fails the will save. The rest is just fluff, right?  ;)
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Mixster

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1642
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2010, 06:31:51 PM »
But the wizard at level 1 would almost be worthless, and a level 1 party would have no options for catching someone invisible.

Oh, and when you are invisible in 30 minutes, you can cast a lot of sleep spells.
You can only cast one. After that, you're visible, because it's an attack. Also, Invisibility only lasts 1 minute per level.

You can summon things without breaking your Invisibility, but the enemy party will be able to hear your casting, and might even be able to pinpoint your location. (IIRC they need to be the DC by 20, and the DC is 0). There are also cheap alchemical ways to deal with invisibility that are affordable at level 1, but I wouldn't count on most 1st level characters spending money on them. If ToB is involved, they could have Hunter's Stance for scent, though, and anyone could just buy a (riding) dog. Wizards could have a bat familiar, and druids could have some companion with scent, also. And a mule costs 8 gold pieces, and has scent. So bring on the fleet of trained attack mules.

Eh, the wizard have more money than them combined, he could in theory just use all his money on a fleet of trained attack mules, but then we aren't playing 3.5 but zergling rushing in Starcraft instead.

You are probably right, I don't think it would be a push-over from either side, but even low level wizards can do a lot of neat tricks. Even though they are best at helping their party at that level.

Still with only 3 min invisibility, his raven familiar could utilise a few wands and the wizard could hide.
Or he could fly up with alter self, forcing mr. fighter to fight them with range. And with nerveskitter and improved initative at level 1, he could easily go before the fighter, and once he's got the fighter down, either with sleep, color spray or something else spiffy. He could simply poke the wizard to death with his spear and his combat form of alter self.

The other guys do have a few tricks to pull, but since the level 3 also have more money unless they both have mercantile background, then he would be able to do almost anything they can do, just better.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

JaronK

Meep Meep - Mixster out

lans

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 886
    • Email
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2010, 06:52:32 PM »
Heck, even celerity -> time stop (shared) + shapechange (shared) + forcecage on the enemy. Have your familiar turn into a beholder and look at the forcecage. Unless the victim has (Ex) teleportation (shadow jaunt/stride/blink) he's stuck while you decide how best to kill him.
In response to time stop I cast celerity and maximized+ empowered force orb. Forcing a concentration check of 80ish.
Skill prodigy from Kingdoms of Kalamar

Solo

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2684
  • Solo the Sorcelator, at your service
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2010, 06:53:01 PM »
My god, your internet dicks are huge.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2010, 07:02:30 PM »
Heck, even celerity -> time stop (shared) + shapechange (shared) + forcecage on the enemy. Have your familiar turn into a beholder and look at the forcecage. Unless the victim has (Ex) teleportation (shadow jaunt/stride/blink) he's stuck while you decide how best to kill him.
In response to time stop I cast celerity and maximized+ empowered force orb. Forcing a concentration check of 80ish.
Greater Mirror Image. I interrupt your interrupt.  :D If I had to use Celerity to go first, this isn't possible of course, as I've already used up my immediate action.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

awaken DM golem

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3294
  • PAO'd my Avatar
Re: Wizard vs Fighter+Wizard+maybe Cleric and rogue
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2010, 08:05:06 PM »
... says the one higher-level wizard ...

hmm ... if the level difference is "just" one level, it's a pretty close contest, too close to bet on.