Astral Construct vs Fighter

[Phoenix00]

If the astral construct is permanent can't you do non typical things such as have the construct wear armor made for him, or coat himself with lotus poison?

[PhaedrusXY]

If the astral construct is permanent can't you do non typical things such as have the construct wear armor made for him, or coat himself with lotus poison?

If you have to resort to that, then you have already lost. 

[ninjarabbit]

This will end up being like the fighter vs animal companion thread where ther fighter was a little bit better but the gap was close enough to where a fighter could be replaced in a party by an animal companion or in this case an astral construct without losing too much (and actually gaining a bit since the party doesn't have to share treasure with the the animal or astral construct).

[Phoenix00]

If the astral construct is permanent can't you do non typical things such as have the construct wear armor made for him, or coat himself with lotus poison?

If you have to resort to that, then you have already lost.  

I disagree, I am just asking what are the rules of the engagement, and I am pointing out possible exploits prior to the engagement.   The rules need to be discussed before hand, if you do not talk about the rules before hand then you can't have a fair contest that satisfies everyone on a "fair fight."

Here are some possible questions I have off the top of my head.

1)  Is it really fair for the fighter to have a mount if the psion can't do anything after summoning the astral construct.
2)  If the psion can't do anything doesn't the fighter have a wealth by level advantage since the fighter has a full wealth by level while the psion can only buy things that help him buff his manifester score.
3)  How does psionic/magic transparency work?  Does this mean ioun stones raise manifester level.  How about the spell-gifted trait in UA (if traits are allowed) does this mean you can treat your metacreativity powers as 1 ml higher.
4)  Can the psion summon multiple astral constructs if he takes the constructor prestige class.  The 9th level ability (available at ecl 15) allows you to have up to 4 astral constructs out at one time for the cost of 6 extra power points.  Torc of Power Preservation (either old or new) allows you 1 extra pp, overchannel+talented gives you 3 extra pp that is 4 extra pp (and thus 2 extra constructs) effectively for free
5)  Is 4 on 1 fair?
Etc...

This will end up being like the fighter vs animal companion thread where ther fighter was a little bit better but the gap was close enough to where a fighter could be replaced in a party by an animal companion or in this case an astral construct without losing too much (and actually gaining a bit since the party doesn't have to share treasure with the the animal or astral construct).

Agreed.  The strength of the Astral Construct as a "beat stick" is that it takes effectively nothing for a psion/shaper (an already T2 class) to bring him out.  All you need to do is memorize the power synchronicity and take the feat linked power.  The Astral Construct appears in round 2, and due to synchroncicity regiving you your standard action you didn't even lose your action, the only cost for the astral construct beat stick is some pp, your psionic focus, 1 power known, and 1 feat.

[nijineko]

i lean towards the psion being allowed to manifest astral construct boosts after the fight start. if it is really fig vs astcon then there should only be one astcon in the arena, but the psion should be allowed to do something like manifest repair ectoplasm via psicrystal, to simulate healing, etc., but no direct or indirect influence on the fight except via the astcon.

[Kajhera]

... How in the world would it not be fair for the fighter (who may be a mounted charger) to have a mount?   Particularly if he got it by a feat? Or by spending wealth? Or... you know I'm just not sure what that sort of question is doing there.

Psion is not equal to mount.

[Nachofan99]

... How in the world would it not be fair for the fighter (who may be a mounted charger) to have a mount?   Particularly if he got it by a feat? Or by spending wealth? Or... you know I'm just not sure what that sort of question is doing there.

Psion is not equal to mount.

I agree but...for different reasons.

I think (and I could be wrong) that part of this is "PC Fighter" vs "summoned Astral Construct".  PC's have wealth, so the Fighter really should be able to spend his wealth on "whatever"; he is a frickin PC.  While the Manifesting PC has wealth (and should have no restrictions on using that wealth to improve his *summoning* capabilities), the summoned Astral Construct DOES NOT HAVE WEALTH - he is a frickin summoned creature with no wealth. 

Otherwise this turns more into wealth optimization than char op IMO.

Plus, Ride is one of a *piddly handful* of class skills for the Fighter, so actually using his class ability does require having a mount of some kind.  Just saying.

Also, we can do a "no mount" scenario later on.  Or it can be one of the things that Team Astral Construct wants to veto if Team Fighter objects to something else.  Tit for tat.

[sirpercival]

I think this whole "competition" is kind of silly.  The simple fact that this discussion exists shows once again that summoners (including shapers) are much superior BSFs than BSFs.  Who cares if a given optimized fighter can beat a given optimized astral construct?  Which one is more efficient and cost-effective for a party?

A more interesting question (to me) is, which is better -- the BSFs produced by an arcane summoner, a divine summoner, or a shaper, all of a given level?

[Midnight_v]

Psion is not equal to mount.

Being generally uninvested in but (admittedly vaguely interested)this argument, it occurs to me: "That would depend on the mount" wouldn't it?
  Unless of course we break out the: "No sane Dm would allow that" about certain mount options.
No sane Dm is a terrible fallacy btw but still.

This will end up being like the fighter vs animal companion thread where ther fighter was a little bit better but the gap was close enough to where a fighter could be replaced in a party by an animal companion or in this case an astral construct without losing too much (and actually gaining a bit since the party doesn't have to share treasure with the the animal or astral construct).

 I think you might be right and not having to share the treasure/xp with an astral construct is a boon in some ways, but... when I read this thread.
Two things jump out:
1. People play D&D in vastly different ways (Is xp a river, or something else? And, what then?)
and really thats a variable that seems to keep people disagreeing and disatisfied. As illustrated by the scenario "countering" above etc...  
2. There is an oppurtunity cost inherent, in using a fighter as opposed to a "drone", but in the single event 1 fall match, the fighter MAY well win. Which is fine, as it isn't designed to illustate which is a better option in a game over all. Which totally depends on defining the first point.
edit: Somewhat swordsaged my point sirpercival

[Kajhera]

When I say 'psion is not equal to mount' I did not mean that a psion could not be used as a mount.

...

I meant that the mount is a function of a fighter, while the astral construct is a function of a psion. It would be like saying, 'The mount can't have the fighter if the psion can't have his construct'. It just doesn't make much sense.

[skydragonknight]

I personally consider a mount part of a fighting style. There should be no issue as long as the mount doesn't attack the astral construct...right?

[Endarire]

Based on preliminary calcuations, a Hood Fighter10 with standard wealth, access to all 3.x using the latest stuff, and a 42 point buy can take out a single level 9 Astral Construct (a CR10).  It's just a brute on brute fight.

It's when the Fighter is expected to take on more than that when things become difficult.

[X-Codes]

I think this whole "competition" is kind of silly.  The simple fact that this discussion exists shows once again that summoners (including shapers) are much superior BSFs than BSFs.  Who cares if a given optimized fighter can beat a given optimized astral construct?  Which one is more efficient and cost-effective for a party?

Frankly, the competition is only interesting because the AC gets flight at a much lower level than your typical BSF, so the BSF would have trouble dealing with an AC between the times that the AC flies and the BSF starts flying.  A summoner's minions, while good, can't replace the entirety of a BSF.  Just not quite that good.

[nijineko]

if the mount attacks, does the psicrystal get to attack the fighter too? (i'm chuckling about this thread now...)

here are some suggested parameters:

arena: three bouts, three environments: one neutral, one each favorable to each side. ring-out zones should be established, to allow for bull rushes, etc..

combat: fig vs astcon, not psion. indirect support from one's own side is allowed, however.
(since this is pc vs summoned, i think that anything the pc acquires by means of class feature, feat, race, special ability, or wealth is fair to use vs astcon.)

sources:
option 1)100% official wotc only is one possibility.  
option 2) wotc + pf.  
option 3) wotc + author's works.  
option 4) wotc+ pf + authors of either.


anything else?

[awaken DM golem]

<snip>

<snip>

I disagree ...

      ... shh ... there there, kitty avatar. When they fight, they still love each other.

[Phoenix00]

I say for fairness we allow the fighter to have a mount that allows some mobility but does not allow superb mobility.  For example a fighter flying on several different forms of dragons can get a 200+ flight speed.  Combine this fighter with an archery build or a ride by attack and the fighter can attack while the dragon just merely moves so fast the astral construct can't counter attack.  In effect the mount allows the fighter to be superbly more mobile than what you can normally do with magic items (but not necessary spells such as Phantom Steed)

So as a compromise I suggest this be the "generic" mount the fighter gets, even though in theory a fighter in a non arena game can get a better mount.   I also think it is fair to allow the mount hd to be advanced for free to whatever hit dice the fighter is. (I am posting some of the stats that are releated to a mount).

Drakkensteeds from Dragon Magic p113

• Animal (Dragonblood Subtype), Large Size
• AC 15, Touch AC 11,Flat-footed 13, Str NA, Dex 15, Con 19
• Speed Land 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 60 ft.  (poor)
• Feats: Alertness, Wingover

So in sum the fighter gets a mount to allow mount releated feats and items (such as damage boost from lances), but he doesn't get such a superb mount where the mount is practically an animal companion.  Nor the mount allows tactics that a normal fighter couldn't do via magic items.

Furthermore I think it is fair to prohibit the mount from every attacking.

This seems fair to the other guys?

[Midnight_v]

I think that sounds pretty fair.

Are the astral construct rule as presented in the Xph good or are they updated heavily in the Cpsi?

[Phoenix00]

I think that sounds pretty fair.

Are the astral construct rule as presented in the Xph good or are they updated heavily in the Cpsi?

From memory, complete psionic nerfed Astral Construct to only 1 construct at a time, I do not remember any other changes to Astral Construct from complete psionic, complete psionic did introduce some minor feats to improve astral constructs called ectopic feats.  Most DM ignore this nerf unless they only limit 1 summon nature ally or 1 summon monster at a time for it makes no sense to limit Psionics but not touch Arcane and Divine.

[Midnight_v]

^K. Cool...
Just noticed this: 

No DM is going to allow that kind of BS in a real game.

Well... No TRUE Scottman would put up with such talk! 

[Endarire]

Assumptions
42 point buy.  No level adjustment.  Standard wealth by level.  Limit 2 flaws and traits.  All 3.5 material available, including unupdated 3.0.  Latest errata for everything.  No magazines nor third party.  Level bonuses applied to form changes, such as via polymorph.  PCs get max HP on first HD and average HP for other HD.  Battle Jump requires at least a standard action to trigger.

It's just the astral construct vs. the Fighter.  2 buff rounds.

Build Summary
This guy figures he has one hit.  It's all or nothing.  Therefore, his build is around getting in that one lovely hit that will down this nasty level 9 astral construct.  With all his accuracy buffs and using Deep Impact, he can hit this construct's touch AC on a natural 2.

Just in case he doesn't go first, he has Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, and a Spiked Chain.

The Hidden Talent power doesn't matter much.  Getting him 2PP is enough for his Deep Crystal weapon.  He expends his Psionic Focus to trigger Deep Impact then the 2PP to fuel the Deep Crystal weapon.

With these rules, he doesn't even need proficiency to hit.

I wasn't sure how legal an item of heroics was for extra feats.  This build performs well, even without it.

Warforged Stats
26 STR = 18 base + 2 levels + 2 item + 4 expansion
14 DEX = 18 - 2 template + 2 item - 4 expansion
18 CON = 12 base + 2 race + 2 template + 2 item
14 INT = 14 base
6 WIS = 8 base - 2 race
6 CHA = 8 base - 2 race

Dragonborn Warforged Fighter10
1: {Aggressive}, {Quick}, {Shaky}, {Vulnerable}
1: [Battle Jump], Combat Reflexes, Hidden Talent: astral construct, Improved Initiative
2: [Power Attack]
3: Psionic Weapon
4: [Improved Trip]
6: [Martial Study: Shield Block], Deep Impact
8: [Combat Expertise]
9: Leap Attack
10: [Martial Stance; Thicket of Blades]

Relevant Equipment (49,000G is ECL10 Wealth by Level)
-Deep Crystal +1 Construct Bane Valorous Spiked Chain (effectively a +3 weapon)
-Item of expansion at manifester level 7
-Item of a Devoted Spirit maneuver (Shield Block chosen)
+2 STR, +2 DEX, and +2 CON items
+Jump item

He has plenty of wealth to spare, but his defenses don't mean much.  He'll probably be hit anyway.

Damage Analysis
12d6 Huge Spiked Chain base damage (3d6) x4 from Battle Jump, Dragonborn Dive, and a Valorous weapon
+ 2d6 (Deep Crystal)
+ 2d6+8 (Construct Bane with the plus quadrupled)
+160 (Power Attack with Leap Attack x4)
+4 (+1 weapon x4)
+32 (+8 STR modifier x4)

Final Notes
Y'all can probably do better.  Then again, if this Hood hits with everything, he should expect to one-shot said Construct.  Taking Leaping Dragon Stance may be better than Thicket of Blades for reliable jump attacks.