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The Thinktank => Min/Max It! => : Necrosnoop110 October 26, 2011, 12:22:15 PM

: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Necrosnoop110 October 26, 2011, 12:22:15 PM
(1) Can a non-optimized Fighter take a standard Astral Construct manifested by a non-optimized shaper in an arena fight? What about at lower levels (1-10) versus higher levels (10-20)? (Note: By non-optimized I mean just an average fighter without being designed purposefully weak nor optimized to be overly strong)  


(2) Can an optimized Fighter take a tricked out Astral Construct cast by an optimized shaper in an arena fight? What about at lower levels (1-10) versus higher levels (10-20)? (Note: Neither build at TO levels, just solid, well done, non-broken optimization)  


(3) Who fulfills the role of "beat stick" better for the party, a fighter or an astral construct (assume the astral construct is a natural non-summoned creature with at least average intelligence) (assume equal levels of optimization) What about at lower levels (1-10) versus higher levels (10-20)?  

Peace,
Necro  
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: skydragonknight October 26, 2011, 12:32:56 PM
2 is a possible yes because Shock Trooper is level 6 and I don't think ACs can fly at that level.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 12:42:17 PM
An optimized fighter being like this one, or have I been reading that one guide too much?

[spoiler]Dragonborn Nezumi Fighter
(1) Hidden Talent (Catfall)
(f) Battle Jump
(f) Up the Walls
(1b) Power Attack
(t) Quick
(2b) Improved Bull Rush
(3) Leap of the Heavens
(4b) Combat Reflexes
(6) Leap Attack
(6b) Shock Trooper
...
(tba)

Weaponry: Lance, Armor Spikes[/spoiler]
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: X-Codes October 26, 2011, 12:46:57 PM
Fighter across the board.  If you use ACs, however, then nobody has to play said Fighter.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Tr011 October 26, 2011, 12:50:11 PM
An optimized fighter being like this one, or have I been reading that one guide too much?

[spoiler]Dragonborn Nezumi Fighter
(1) Hidden Talent (Catfall)
(f) Battle Jump
(f) Up the Walls
(1b) Power Attack
(t) Quick
(2b) Improved Bull Rush
(3) Leap of the Heavens
(4b) Combat Reflexes
(6) Leap Attack
(6b) Shock Trooper
...
(tba)

Weaponry: Lance, Armor Spikes[/spoiler]
Sounds good to me, that one will obviously take down any AC.
To point 1: Does the Fighter have equipment by his WBL or just a regular weapon?

/edit: (1) Simply compare the AC to a Half-Orc Fighter (17 str, 14 dex, 13 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 6 cha using elite-array).
lvl 1: Fighter has Longsword, Chain Shirt and Heavy Steel Shield and took Weapon Focus (Longsword) and Toughness, total: +5 att (1d8+3), 18 AC, 14 hp
lvl 3: Fighter has MW Longsword, MW Fullplate, MW Heavy Steel Shield and took WF(LS), Toughness (2), Dodge, total +8 att (1d8+3), 23 AC, 33 hp
lvl 5: Fighter has +1 Longsword, +1 Fullplate, +1 Heavy Steel Shield and took WF(LS), WS(LS), Toughness (2), Dodge, +1 to str, total +11 att (1d8+7), 25 AC, 46 hp
Gets more difficult to compare at higher levels because I don't know what items that Fighter (nonoptimized) would have. The Fighter has more HP and AC above lvl 1 and he clearly deals more damage. The AC would have to take Extra Attack from Menu B to stay at the same number of attacks on AC 4 vs. lvl 7 Fighter. So I think the Fighter wins, but it's not by far and shows very easy how much worse Fighters are compared to Psions.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 26, 2011, 12:53:46 PM
The answer to 2 is hell no.  An optimized shaper is using power link shards.  Consider this build

Level 6
Kalashtar with 28 point buy, with 8 Str, 10 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha
Feats
1: Boost Construct
1 PBF: Free
3: Free
5 PBF: Craft Universal Item
6: Extraordinary Artisan
Powers chosen:  Astral Construct, Bestow Power
Power Points: 53 Total=35 base, 12 bonus, 6 Kalashtar
Hit Points: 28 Total=16 Levels (4 followed by 5 different 2.5)+18 (Con)-6 (Power Link Shards)
Starting Wealth 13,000
6 Power Link Shards you craft yourself, thus 1500*6*.75=6750.  You now have 6250 wealth to play with.

So at level 6 you have 53 power points.  You can also activate your power link shards three time a day and get 12 free power points that can be used for augmentation and these augmentation allow you to surpass your manifester level.  Thus you can use 6 power points and with a free action to activate your power link shards you can now be using 18 pp at level 6, and you can do this 3 times a day.

Now here are the stats for a Level 9 astral construct, lets see the level 6 fighter take on this
Huge Construct
Hit Dice:   19d10+40 (144 hp)
Initiative:   +0
Speed:   50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class:   33 (+25 natural, –2 size), touch 8, flatfooted 33
Base Attack/Grapple:   +16/+38
Attack:   Slam +28 melee (2d6+16)
Full Attack:   2 slams +28 melee (2d6+16)
Space/Reach:   15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks:   —
Special Qualities:   Three abilities from Menu C (two base, 1 from boost construct),
construct traits, damage reduction 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., lowlight vision
Saves:   Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities:   Str 43, Dex 11, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10


The answer to 3, is that the Astral Construct is a better beat stick, while the fighter (if build correctly) can be a better battlefield control
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: PhaedrusXY October 26, 2011, 12:54:45 PM
TO stuff
No DM is going to allow that kind of BS in a real game.  :rollseyes
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Mixster October 26, 2011, 12:55:32 PM
1. Define un-optimized fighter, if you are taking toughness at all level, and the Astral Construct chooses its' talents at random, my money is on astral construct.

2. Fighter wins.

3. Either, beat-stick is a simple enough job. Fighter is better at BC
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: X-Codes October 26, 2011, 01:12:51 PM
TO stuff
No DM is going to allow that kind of BS in a real game.  :rollseyes
No kidding.

Feats aren't as good as class features, but ACs don't even really get feats.  Therefore, Fighters > ACs, but see my caveat.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Tr011 October 26, 2011, 01:23:13 PM
Wow much answers in that short time, plz look at my edit for a try to compare for answer 1. I assume non-optimized Fighters take stuff like Dodge, Weapon Focus/Specialization and Toughness, maybe Power Attack.
And @Phoenix: Remember that Manifester +1 Shruiken are pretty cheap (286gp IIRC) and they grant +5 PPs.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 26, 2011, 01:23:27 PM
TO stuff
No DM is going to allow that kind of BS in a real game.  :rollseyes
An arena fight is not a "real" game.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 02:02:14 PM
Holy crap those link shard items are powerful.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 26, 2011, 02:08:25 PM
Holy crap those link shard items are powerful.
Correct, they let you bypass your ML limit (and thus are really powerful).  Furthermore they are a cheap source of extra pp.  (They do cost money though and each 1 takes 1 hp away, thus 20 of them take up to 20 hp away, finally you are limited to ML for the number of them you can integrate into your body.)

Buy it outright for 3,000 gp.  This gives you what is effectively 6 pp so 500gp per pp.
Craft it yourself for 1,500 gp.  This gives you what is effectively 6 pp so 250gp per pp.
Craft it yourself with extraordinary artisan for 1,125 gp.  This gives you what is effectively 6 pp so 187.5gp per pp.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 02:20:35 PM
So how much experience did you spend there, or can we assume experience halfway to 7th level for crafting purposes?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Rebel7284 October 26, 2011, 02:30:19 PM
So how much experience did you spend there, or can we assume experience halfway to 7th level for crafting purposes?

Can't you just harvest liquid pain/ambrosia/sell souls to get XP for crafting? :D

On a serious note: "The XP cost equals 1/25 of the cost of the item in gold pieces."
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 02:35:36 PM
So how much experience did you spend there, or can we assume experience halfway to 7th level for crafting purposes?

Can't you just harvest liquid pain/ambrosia/sell souls to get XP for crafting? :D

On a serious note: "The XP cost equals 1/25 of the cost of the item in gold pieces."

So 270xp, got it.

Still want to know what we are going with. Neither Shaper nor Fighter has the capability to harvest those items. :P (Also most things the Fighter could do with experience will cost more of it.)
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 02:46:41 PM
Also, grr, having trouble getting to more than 123 damage dealt before running out of touch attacks, god help me if it grapples.

Still, the fighter can do a lot more damage in one hit.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 26, 2011, 02:49:01 PM
So how much experience did you spend there, or can we assume experience halfway to 7th level for crafting purposes?
: Kajhera
So 270xp, got it.

Still want to know what we are going with. Neither Shaper nor Fighter has the capability to harvest those items. :P (Also most things the Fighter could do with experience will cost more of it.)

It would be 720xp (120xp*6). It is 1/25th of the item base cost and since the item base cost is 3,000 gp, 1/25 of 3,000 is 120xp.

The psion is literally crafting those power links shards.  He meets all the prerequsities via 6th level (or you can get it as early as 5th level depending on what you take as the open feats).

So there are several ways you can assign the differences of xp.

1)  If you want to count the xp cost against the psion.  So we could say the fighter is 6th level (15,000 xp) and the psion is 5th level (14,280).  If you do this then the psion, the two free feats go to Imprint Stone (Psion 1 Bonus Feat) and Extraordinary Artisan is moved to level 3.  Moving these feats around allow you to craft these stones as early as level 5 instead of level 6.  You would only needs 5 power link shards, and he is summoning an 8th level astral construct instead of a 9th level.  The battle would still be practically identical with an 8th level astral construct instead of a 9th level.

2)  720xp is 14.4% of the difference between 5th and 6th level.  A very small amount.  This is why I ignored it in my original post

3)  Or you could make the psion a 6th level character, and the fighter having another 720xp, which means the fighter is 12% closer to 7th level than the psion is.

Also, grr, having trouble getting to more than 123 damage dealt before running out of touch attacks, god help me if it grapples.

Still, the fighter can do a lot more damage in one hit.
I am curious what your build is  :)
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: amalcon October 26, 2011, 02:50:00 PM
I played a mildly-optimized wilder with AC in a recent game that also had a mildly-optimized fighter and a mildly-optimized warblade.  At levels 5 and 6, it was generally fighter < AC ~= warblade.

Now, the construct was level 4-5 (due to Wild Surge 2 and a psionic port of the FR Spell Thematics feat) at those levels.  An optimized shaper could plausibly pull off the same (Midnight Augmentation + Improved Essentia Capacity + Overchannel), but an unoptimized shaper would only have level 3 constructs.  Make of this what you will.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 02:55:34 PM
Also, grr, having trouble getting to more than 123 damage dealt before running out of touch attacks, god help me if it grapples.

Still, the fighter can do a lot more damage in one hit.
I am curious what your build is  :)
[/quote]

Right now it's as follows, but I don't have anything to deal with continual invisibility yet... or grapples. I may be forced into Leadership by your silly items.  :P

[spoiler]1) Wild Cohort
1b) Mounted Combat
2b) Spirited Charge
3) Natural Bond
4b) Power Attack
6) Improved Sunder
6b) Combat Brute

Race: Water Orc
Companion: Dire Eagle
Weapon: +1 Impaling Lance

Damage on a charge, power-attacking full: ( 1d8 + 1 + 1.5 * Strength + 12 ) x 3 = 3d8 + 66 (average 79.5)
Damage on round after: 1d8 + 1 + 1.5 * Strength + 18 = 1d8 + 28 (average 32.5)
Damage on last round: 1d8 + 1 + 1.5 * Strength + 6 = 1d8+16 (average 20.5)[/spoiler]
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 26, 2011, 03:09:35 PM
Don't worry about invisibility, unless I know the situation before hand, this is what I would pick for my menu abilities.

Menu C
1)  Concussion (Ps) :The astral construct can manifest concussion blast (manifester level 7th) as a free action once per round. (free actions are fun)
2)  Blindsight (Ex) The astral construct has blindsight out to 60 feet. (since I don't know the situation before hand, and I may have an invisibile attacker)

For my 3rd Menu C ability I trade out it for 2 Menu B abilities
Menu B
3a)  Improved Fly (Ex) The astral construct has physical wings and a fly speed of 40 feet (average). (flight is fun, and drastically reduces the number of things that can affect my astral construct at level 6)
3b)  Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, the construct must hit with its slam attack. A construct can use this ability only on a target that is at least one size smaller than itself. (affects creatures of size large or smaller, use that +38 grapple score to your advantage and attack at the same time.)
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Sinfire Titan October 26, 2011, 03:22:17 PM
An arena fight is not a "real" game.
And this thought experiment was not posted in the YBIYBI section, thus TO material should be left out.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Tr011 October 26, 2011, 03:30:04 PM
1d8 + 28 (average 23.5)
Sorry, it's too funny to not be pointed out... xD
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 03:31:30 PM
1d8 + 28 (average 23.5)
Sorry, it's too funny to not be pointed out... xD
Crap, I must've switched the numbers there. /dyslexic apparently  :p
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: X-Codes October 26, 2011, 03:43:42 PM
An arena fight is not a "real" game.
And this thought experiment was not posted in the YBIYBI section, thus TO material should be left out.
Nevermind that Eberron stuff could have been better balanced by a retarded goldfish.  (Link shards on one extreme, the Finesse weapon enhancement on the other.)
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 03:49:10 PM
Not done yet, nevermind
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Sinfire Titan October 26, 2011, 04:26:18 PM
An arena fight is not a "real" game.
And this thought experiment was not posted in the YBIYBI section, thus TO material should be left out.
Nevermind that Eberron stuff could have been better balanced by a retarded goldfish.  (Link shards on one extreme, the Finesse weapon enhancement on the other.)
While I agree, the same can be said for the entirety of 3.5.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 26, 2011, 04:34:30 PM
Thread needs more undead, venerable, dragonwrought kobold fighters taking epic level feats.   ;)

Fighter wins this handsdown in pretty much every way at equal levels of optimization (high end or low end).  Fighters have a lot more material to mix/match than Astral Constructs so, more options=more better.   An Astral Construct has no Int score - it's all on the Shaper.  Granted, Shapers will be smart enough to pilot the AC's it's just something to note.

I think I'm going to see a lot of "Let me have TO optimization for the Shaper/AC pair, and make sure we hamstring the Fighter with restrictions that *my character* doesn't have to follow, but your's has to."
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 04:39:32 PM
Thread needs more undead, venerable, dragonwrought kobold fighters taking epic level feats.   ;)

Fighter wins this handsdown in pretty much every way at equal levels of optimization (high end or low end).  Fighters have a lot more material to mix/match than Astral Constructs so, more options=more better.   An Astral Construct has no Int score - it's all on the Shaper.  Granted, Shapers will be smart enough to pilot the AC's it's just something to note.

I think I'm going to see a lot of "Let me have TO optimization for the Shaper/AC pair, and make sure we hamstring the Fighter with restrictions that *my character* doesn't have to follow, but your's has to."

I was going to almost definitely beat the astral construct but then I realized I couldn't get a steel dragon wyrmling cohort til 8th level.  :(
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: X-Codes October 26, 2011, 05:28:48 PM
Thread needs more undead, venerable, dragonwrought kobold fighters taking epic level feats.   ;)

Fighter wins this handsdown in pretty much every way at equal levels of optimization (high end or low end).  Fighters have a lot more material to mix/match than Astral Constructs so, more options=more better.   An Astral Construct has no Int score - it's all on the Shaper.  Granted, Shapers will be smart enough to pilot the AC's it's just something to note.

I think I'm going to see a lot of "Let me have TO optimization for the Shaper/AC pair, and make sure we hamstring the Fighter with restrictions that *my character* doesn't have to follow, but your's has to."
No worries.  The level 9 AC can be countered by a Candle of Invocation.
I was going to almost definitely beat the astral construct but then I realized I couldn't get a steel dragon wyrmling cohort til 8th level.  :(
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 05:33:33 PM
I can manage 9th level astral constructs by 10th level, if going optimized. I'm not sure a fighter at 10th can quite compare to that, especially since my shaper/constructor can give the construct equipment to use for a double-Extended 40 minutes (with that feat in Hyperconscious) and 4 menu C abilities via multiple Boost Construct feats. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b)

[edit] WITHOUT shards.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 06:15:56 PM
Ooh. Tenth. I can get the dragon then.  :)

Regrettably, though, *you* will probably grab Invisibility, which will reduce it to melee range, which makes my strategy of grabbing a wand of Acid Arrow and dealing minor damage from five hundred twenty feet away while running like hell somewhat less viable, not that it was particularly stylish in the first place. And that whole matter of giving it equipment could be troublesome indeed.

Edit: Though he specified non-summoned in the descriptor so I think someone went and made it permanent via that Hyperconscious power.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 06:19:15 PM
Ooh. Tenth. I can get the dragon then.  :)

Regrettably, though, *you* will probably grab Invisibility, which will reduce it to melee range, which makes my strategy of grabbing a wand of Acid Arrow and dealing minor damage from five hundred twenty feet away while running like hell somewhat less viable, not that it was particularly stylish in the first place. And that whole matter of giving it equipment could be troublesome indeed.

Edit: Though he specified non-summoned in the descriptor so I think someone went and made it permanent via that Hyperconscious power.
I believe that costs somewhere in the range of millions of xp.

You'd have to be WAAAAAY into epic for that.

Also, since I'd be early-entry for constructor (psion 5/constructor 5, via Favored Contact psyref'd out later), it'd only be 36 minutes, as I wouldn't bother with the Hyperconscious feat, and would rely on the Extended Construction ability instead.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 06:20:29 PM
Ooh. Tenth. I can get the dragon then.  :)

Regrettably, though, *you* will probably grab Invisibility, which will reduce it to melee range, which makes my strategy of grabbing a wand of Acid Arrow and dealing minor damage from five hundred twenty feet away while running like hell somewhat less viable, not that it was particularly stylish in the first place. And that whole matter of giving it equipment could be troublesome indeed.

Edit: Though he specified non-summoned in the descriptor so I think someone went and made it permanent via that Hyperconscious power.
I believe that costs somewhere in the range of millions of xp.

You'd have to be WAAAAAY into epic for that.
Maybe someone epic made a creature with that as a psi-like ability.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 06:23:03 PM
Ooh. Tenth. I can get the dragon then.  :)

Regrettably, though, *you* will probably grab Invisibility, which will reduce it to melee range, which makes my strategy of grabbing a wand of Acid Arrow and dealing minor damage from five hundred twenty feet away while running like hell somewhat less viable, not that it was particularly stylish in the first place. And that whole matter of giving it equipment could be troublesome indeed.

Edit: Though he specified non-summoned in the descriptor so I think someone went and made it permanent via that Hyperconscious power.
I believe that costs somewhere in the range of millions of xp.

You'd have to be WAAAAAY into epic for that.

Also, since I'd be early-entry for constructor (psion 5/constructor 5, via Favored Contact psyref'd out later), it'd only be 36 minutes, as I wouldn't bother with the Hyperconscious feat, and would rely on the Extended Construction ability instead.

Hey now, go pure Shaper, I keep wanting to go into prestige classes but don't have books so all I can look up are feats and some templates. >>'

Edit: Also, if you can get 9th level constructs without link shard things, there's no point in using them ... Heh.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Bloody Initiate October 26, 2011, 06:54:10 PM
TO stuff
No DM is going to allow that kind of BS in a real game.  :rollseyes
An arena fight is not a "real" game.

And TO isn't a "real" tactic so your build isn't a "real" build.

Eventually there ARE rules, and just as the limits of the arena are defined so will the limits of the rules.

And Arenas CAN make appearances in real games, it's a common trope for arenas to show up in fantasy genres. Plenty of D&D games feature arena fights as part of the plot. People have loved arenas since they could first build them. This topic's existence is proof of the matter.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Mixster October 26, 2011, 07:18:31 PM
Isn't there a feat somewhere that allows a Psion to combine Summon Monster and Astral Construct into one ability? So you could summon celestial Bisons with improved grab, wings and blindsight?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: bearsarebrown October 26, 2011, 07:23:40 PM
Yes. Dragon 313 has it. Dual Plane Summons.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 08:05:03 PM
Ooh. Tenth. I can get the dragon then.  :)

Regrettably, though, *you* will probably grab Invisibility, which will reduce it to melee range, which makes my strategy of grabbing a wand of Acid Arrow and dealing minor damage from five hundred twenty feet away while running like hell somewhat less viable, not that it was particularly stylish in the first place. And that whole matter of giving it equipment could be troublesome indeed.

Edit: Though he specified non-summoned in the descriptor so I think someone went and made it permanent via that Hyperconscious power.
I believe that costs somewhere in the range of millions of xp.

You'd have to be WAAAAAY into epic for that.

Also, since I'd be early-entry for constructor (psion 5/constructor 5, via Favored Contact psyref'd out later), it'd only be 36 minutes, as I wouldn't bother with the Hyperconscious feat, and would rely on the Extended Construction ability instead.

Hey now, go pure Shaper, I keep wanting to go into prestige classes but don't have books so all I can look up are feats and some templates. >>'

Edit: Also, if you can get 9th level constructs without link shard things, there's no point in using them ... Heh.
You said "optimize for astral constructs." That means the constructor PrC. Otherwise, you aren't optimizing as well as you could be (sans TO).

Also, the constructor is online. Google it. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b)
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
Ooh. Tenth. I can get the dragon then.  :)

Regrettably, though, *you* will probably grab Invisibility, which will reduce it to melee range, which makes my strategy of grabbing a wand of Acid Arrow and dealing minor damage from five hundred twenty feet away while running like hell somewhat less viable, not that it was particularly stylish in the first place. And that whole matter of giving it equipment could be troublesome indeed.

Edit: Though he specified non-summoned in the descriptor so I think someone went and made it permanent via that Hyperconscious power.
I believe that costs somewhere in the range of millions of xp.

You'd have to be WAAAAAY into epic for that.

Also, since I'd be early-entry for constructor (psion 5/constructor 5, via Favored Contact psyref'd out later), it'd only be 36 minutes, as I wouldn't bother with the Hyperconscious feat, and would rely on the Extended Construction ability instead.

Hey now, go pure Shaper, I keep wanting to go into prestige classes but don't have books so all I can look up are feats and some templates. >>'

Edit: Also, if you can get 9th level constructs without link shard things, there's no point in using them ... Heh.
You said "optimize for astral constructs." That means the constructor PrC. Otherwise, you aren't optimizing as well as you could be (sans TO).
I didn't say it but yeah this is true. Since it's available online I'll concede the point easily. :P
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Endarire October 26, 2011, 08:37:12 PM
When we say "Fighter," are we talking a single-classed Fighter?  Kuz, y'know, even Fighters can be Hoods (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_35_Dragoon).

Are we talking a Lycanthromancer-like Shaper who can manifest much higher level astral constructs than normal?  That matters lots.  Even an optimized Fighter8 Hood may have trouble against a Shaper8 or ShaperX/ConstructorY focused on astral construction.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 08:44:54 PM
When we say "Fighter," are we talking a single-classed Fighter?  Kuz, y'know, even Fighters can be Hoods (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_35_Dragoon).

Are we talking a Lycanthromancer-like Shaper who can manifest much higher level astral constructs than normal?  That matters lots.  Even an optimized Fighter8 Hood may have trouble against a Shaper8 or ShaperX/ConstructorY focused on astral construction.

We're talking about a single-classed fighter. My first proposed build was a Hood, or so I believed. I welcome someone better at them - since I failed at Leadership earlier I'm probably too tired to be optimizing characters for the day.  :)

Regrettably, for the second scenario, Lycanthromancer is *precisely* who we are up against.  :bigeye I fear facing his legal builds much more than simple cheese. Simple cheese I could more or less solve with a wand.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Endarire October 26, 2011, 08:48:49 PM
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 08:58:55 PM
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 09:00:58 PM
So, level 10, optimized for whatever, one PrC, all books (with Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential?) and online content, two flaws and one or two traits, standard WBL? How about 42 point buy, to make it easier on the fighter?

Races? LA-buyoff? No crafting, I assume.

Also, just one fighter vs one astral construct? Fighter can't attack the psion, and the psion can't do anything but make a construct and, what, augment it as he likes during the fight? Or can the psion get more involved, so long as he doesn't directly attack the fighter with anything but his construct?

Any other houserules?

Oh, and the arena has to be rather large. Large enough to fit both the construct and the fighter.

[edit] Oh, and I believe I shall give my construct a nice fat Int score...
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 26, 2011, 09:27:19 PM
While I don't think that Arena style matches really definitely proves anything, for the love of Pun-Pun, could we please *really* have builds and *really* see this play out?  I will donate my time to help make it happen if required.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 09:29:22 PM
While I don't think that Arena style matches really definitely proves anything, for the love of Pun-Pun, could we please *really* have builds and *really* see this play out?  I will donate my time to help make it happen if required.
Well, you know I'm good for it. How many times have I posted something paroxysm-inducing on these boards?

Also, I really need to know the restrictions for this. What am I allowed to do, and what am I restricted from doing in the actual thing? Can I use any powers and effects that affect myself, my psicrystal, and the construct, and nothing else, after it enters the fray? Obviously using SoDs on the fighter is right out, as is boxing him up in...well...a box. No Disintegrates, etc.

But what about the rest?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: TC X0 Lt 0X October 26, 2011, 09:29:30 PM
Honestly it depends if the Fighter has Flight or not, and who is manifesting the Astral Construct.

1) Low Levels, pretty even, both have advantages. Higher level. if the fighter has flight, probably the fighter. If not, the Astral Construct.

2) Low Levels, Probably Fighter, but the AC can trip real nasty like and has DR/magic. Higher Levels fighter.

3) Fighter Across the board.

The only thing to note is the advantage of Astral Construct is that you can replace the Construct easily. Astral Constructs ae not meant to be more powerful then fighters per say, but large numbers and the being easily sacrificed are the advantages of Astral Constructs, and when utilize to their fullest easily outmatch a fighter.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 26, 2011, 09:36:31 PM
While I don't think that Arena style matches really definitely proves anything, for the love of Pun-Pun, could we please *really* have builds and *really* see this play out?  I will donate my time to help make it happen if required.
Well, you know I'm good for it. How many times have I posted something paroxysm-inducing on these boards?

Also, I really need to know the restrictions for this. What am I allowed to do, and what am I restricted from doing in the actual thing? Can I use any powers and effects that affect myself, my psicrystal, and the construct, and nothing else, after it enters the fray? Obviously using SoDs on the fighter is right out, as is boxing him up in...well...a box. No Disintegrates, etc.

But what about the rest?

Of course we need limits, but, I think we can have gentlemen's agreements to decide that designed by the participants amongst themselves.

So level 10 - agree or disagree?
LA or no LA - agree or disagree?
42 pt buy - agree or disagree?
etc.

I believe in tit for tat.  If one side says "Well I don't like this aspect of your build" then the other side could say "Well I don't like this aspect of your build.  I won't use X if you won't use Y" or "I think X works this way - you say X works that way."  If neither side can agree then I would suggest "both" things be disallowed, but that's just my 2 CP.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 09:37:16 PM
Honestly it depends if the Fighter has Flight or not, and who is manifesting the Astral Construct.

1) Low Levels, pretty even, both have advantages. Higher level. if the fighter has flight, probably the fighter. If not, the Astral Construct.

2) Low Levels, Probably Fighter, but the AC can trip real nasty like and has DR/magic. Higher Levels fighter.

3) Fighter Across the board.

The only thing to note is the advantage of Astral Construct is that you can replace the Construct easily. Astral Constructs ae not meant to be more powerful then fighters per say, but large numbers and the being easily sacrificed are the advantages of Astral Constructs, and when utilize to their fullest easily outmatch a fighter.
Basically, this. Though I can make a construct more powerful than a fighter. But I'm special, and that's hardly an appropriate yardstick for this kind of thing.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Ithamar October 26, 2011, 09:40:18 PM
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?

Perhaps randomly select one of my 12 arenas (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=87120)?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Mixster October 26, 2011, 09:43:09 PM
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?

If the ground is made of sand, a Mineral Warrior might gain an unfair advantage?

---
Also does the Astral Construct guy have to be a Psion, or can it be an Erudite who happens to like manifesting Astral Construct?
---
I suggest we give each party 2-3 rounds to buff. However the Astral Construct can't be buffed by the psion who created it at all.
---
If using Dual Plane Summons is ok, I suggest the following build for Mr. Astral Constructor:
Assuming LA is a river (so +1 LA is pretty much free)
Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Kobold Sorcerer 2/Ardent (creation mantle) 1/Cerebremancer 5/Incantatrix 2
With Boost Construct and Practiced Manifester, you could summon up a Flying Chain Devil with increased reach that could absolutely terrorize ground bound attackers if it gets fly by attack.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 09:44:54 PM
Before I propose my build, I need to know where this fight is happening.  Environments matter, y'know!

Takes place in an arena. Anyone want to propose further features?

If the ground is made of sand, a Mineral Warrior might gain an unfair advantage?

---
Also does the Astral Construct guy have to be a Psion, or can it be an Erudite who happens to like manifesting Astral Construct?
---
I suggest we give each party 2-3 rounds to buff. However the Astral Construct can't be buffed by the psion who created it at all.
---
If using Dual Plane Summons is ok, I suggest the following build for Mr. Astral Constructor:
Assuming LA is a river (so +1 LA is pretty much free)
Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Kobold Sorcerer 2/Ardent (creation mantle) 1/Cerebremancer 5/Incantatrix 2
With Boost Construct and Practiced Manifester, you could summon up a Flying Chain Devil with increased reach that could absolutely terrorize ground bound attackers if it gets fly by attack.
Why no AC buffs? After all, the fighter can buff himself. :p

What about 'no buffs on the AC after the buff round(s)'?

And can the fighter attack the psion? Or is he like a Pokemon trainer? Attacks on Pokemon only.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Bozwevial October 26, 2011, 09:47:01 PM
Why no AC buffs? After all, the fighter can buff himself. :P
Because the time it takes for the psion to manifest buffs for his Astral Construct is significantly less than the time it takes the fighter to put a "wizard wanted" notice in the local paper.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 09:50:33 PM
Why no AC buffs? After all, the fighter can buff himself. :P
Because the time it takes for the psion to manifest buffs for his Astral Construct is significantly less than the time it takes the fighter to put a "wizard wanted" notice in the local paper.
And how many buffs are you aware of that can affect an astral construct, without using a StP erudite (which I'm NOT using)?

I say, buffing is fine in the buff rounds, at least. And if I'm out on the battlefield (rather than, say, in the stands), I'm fair game. If I'm up in the stands watching my Pokemon fight, the fighter isn't allowed to attack me. Sound fair? Actually, scratch that. I'm going to be pulling some other tricks out of my hat. So long as it's the effects of the Astral Construct doing the beating it's fair game, right?

MUAHAHAHAHA
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Bozwevial October 26, 2011, 09:57:59 PM
I honestly don't care either way, I was just taking a cheap shot at the fighter. :P
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 26, 2011, 10:02:20 PM
I honestly don't care either way, I was just taking a cheap shot at the fighter. :P
Well, I have ideas on what I want to do the tanking in this, so I do rather need to know what's on and what's off the table for me. Both on specs on the build and allowed sources, as well as rules to use in forging my ectoplasmic warrior.

I can't do this in a vacuum, y'all!
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: lianightdemon October 26, 2011, 10:03:24 PM
Go Ectoplasm! I Choose you!
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 26, 2011, 11:30:41 PM
So, level 10, optimized for whatever, one PrC, all books (with Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential?) and online content, two flaws and one or two traits, standard WBL? How about 42 point buy, to make it easier on the fighter?

Races? LA-buyoff? No crafting, I assume.

Also, just one fighter vs one astral construct? Fighter can't attack the psion, and the psion can't do anything but make a construct and, what, augment it as he likes during the fight? Or can the psion get more involved, so long as he doesn't directly attack the fighter with anything but his construct?

Any other houserules?

Oh, and the arena has to be rather large. Large enough to fit both the construct and the fighter.

[edit] Oh, and I believe I shall give my construct a nice fat Int score...

Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: PhaedrusXY October 26, 2011, 11:54:02 PM
Bah, goddamned boards ate my post. Equal optimization, I think the fighter will win every time, except at what I'd consider TO levels.

Level 1 = sword and board fighter with weapon spec. vs. base level 3 AC. The fighter has all around better stats.

Level 2 = level 4 AC with two menu B choices (Boost Construct) vs. a fighter with a flying mount, a lance, and Ride-by-Attack + Spirited Charge. Fighter wins because they trade blows at a 1 for 1 rate, and he outdamages the AC by a lot. Even if the AC has Improved Grab, it won't work as it is the same size as the fighter.

Level 3 = too many variables. Barring insane TO stuff, I think the fighter probably still wins most of the time, though.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: nijineko October 27, 2011, 12:52:35 AM
i would suggest, that to keep any duel fair, that if the psions spends xp, that they not be able to recover it; and start off at the minimum xp for whatever level the duel takes place at. thus if xp gets spent: specialized craftin, psyref, ect... the psion drops a level.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: oslecamo October 27, 2011, 10:08:08 AM
I have a better idea. For each day of crafting the psion does, the fighter gets one extra day's worth of exp and treasure. The world doesn't stop moving just because the psion decides to take a couple of weeks off. If the psion wants to turn into a crafter slowly building stuff at the rate of 1k per day it's his career choice, but adventuring is just much more profitable.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 27, 2011, 03:37:24 PM
I have a better idea. For each day of crafting the psion does, the fighter gets one extra day's worth of exp and treasure. The world doesn't stop moving just because the psion decides to take a couple of weeks off. If the psion wants to turn into a crafter slowly building stuff at the rate of 1k per day it's his career choice, but adventuring is just much more profitable.

Why do you have to bring sanity and fairness to these forums Oslecamo?  Why can't it just be about crafters having automatic double WBL and experience as a river making sure that crafters effectively get double WBL granted for no cost to them?  Super applause  :clap

I think Lycanthromancer said leaving crafting out is an idea, and I think it's a good one.  Unless, of course, the resource of *Time* is going to be equally spent by both characters; the Crafter crafting, and the non-Crafter going out and adventuring.  In such a scenario, I can't see the crafter coming out ahead anyways.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Halinn October 27, 2011, 03:40:19 PM
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 27, 2011, 03:42:36 PM
A standard 8-hour adventuring day might leave time to craft, maybe.

Fixed for you.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Mooncrow October 27, 2011, 03:43:53 PM
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.

A standard 8 hour adventuring day still leaves time for more adventuring as well.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: PhaedrusXY October 27, 2011, 04:00:08 PM
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.
8 hours? Don't you mean 5 minutes?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Halinn October 27, 2011, 04:53:27 PM
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.

A standard 8 hour adventuring day still leaves time for more adventuring as well.

Unless your party is out of the spells needed for safe-ish adventuring. And if you haven't been fighting (say, you're just walking to a dungeon), then you'll only be able to walk for 8 hours without making constitution checks.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Mooncrow October 27, 2011, 04:59:45 PM
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.

A standard 8 hour adventuring day still leaves time for more adventuring as well.

Unless your party is out of the spells needed for safe-ish adventuring. And if you haven't been fighting (say, you're just walking to a dungeon), then you'll only be able to walk for 8 hours without making constitution checks.

We can make up scenarios at each other all day, but the point stands; if the crafter has 8 hours a day to do his crafting, the fighter has time to do other things as well. 
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 27, 2011, 05:59:34 PM
Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.
Well, most DMs (far as I know) allow both Hyperconscious and UTP if they allow psionics at all, as one was written by the author of the XPH, and the other is widely considered better-written than most official material (and by the official Pathfinder psionics people, no less).

And having a permanent astral construct without the creator nearby doesn't work, because the creator has to direct the construct as it goes. If the construct is there, so is the creator.

The rest of it I can swing with, although not the crafting, as I mentioned.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: PhaedrusXY October 27, 2011, 06:05:44 PM
Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.
Well, most DMs (far as I know) allow both Hyperconscious and UTP if they allow psionics at all, as one was written by the author of the XPH, and the other is widely considered better-written than most official material (and by the official Pathfinder psionics people, no less).

And having a permanent astral construct without the creator nearby doesn't work, because the creator has to direct the construct as it goes. If the construct is there, so is the creator.

The rest of it I can swing with, although not the crafting, as I mentioned.
1) I've played in multiple games where psionics was used, but not UTP or Hyperconscious.

2) What difference does it make? Are you planning to buff and/or heal the construct, or interact with it while it fights? When I play a shaper, I never do that, as I don't want to be in combat and/or waste more power points on a temporary construct. So I don't think that's a realistic scenario at all. It's also not construct vs. fighter, it's construct + psion vs. fighter, which seems to be counter to the purpose here. If you're not planning to do that, then what difference does it make?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: awaken DM golem October 27, 2011, 06:55:12 PM
 :lol ... I saw this thread title and laughed ... loudly.


Divine Mind 5 , ya rilly with the Creation mantle
pops out 1 level 4 AC as a standard action (acf)
pops out 1 level 3 AC as a standard action (acf)
All have the 2 stack AC CPsi modifier thingy, that can attack first
and then blow up the next round with type-less damage.
1 or 2 attacks hit, and then the bang happens.
pops out a level 2 AC as a full action, on 2 encounters.

After doing that, it's a bad Divine Mind vs. a whatever Fighter.
My money is on the Fighter at that point.
So Divine Mind for 4 encounters, but not for the 5th and on.

Something that can ping out more and better ACs , is easy peasy.


EDIT --- Divine Mind only has a chance if he can fight the Fighter too.
 :pout
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nunkuruji October 27, 2011, 06:57:51 PM
A standard 8-hour adventuring day still leaves time to craft.
8 hours? Don't you mean 5 minutes?

A loot conscious group will be taking 20 to search for at least an hour a day, if not more... unless they start spam/persist some spell that lets them take 20 as a standard/move.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: awaken DM golem October 27, 2011, 07:02:13 PM

Scenario, as given: - Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.


How about the -fester of the AC is just outside the arena.
Standard initiative checks.
If fighter wins, he readies or does something.
Regardless of winning the -Fester manifests the AC.
Fighter can attack the AC at that point.
-Fester can buff the AC from outside the arena, otherwise normal rules.

: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 27, 2011, 07:22:10 PM
Idle proposal just because I feel like it:

Level 10, use whatever prestige classes you feel like, Fighter must have at least 5 levels of Fighter and others must be Prestige Class, no Hyperconscious and such unless there is a commonly accepted martial equivalent, no flaws, 0 or 1 traits, standard WBL, 32 point buy, half experience to next level and crafting possible, LA buy-off, any 3.5 race (including unupdated 3.0), fractional BAB.

Scenario, as given:
- Astral Construct is made permanent by mysterious means and must act without the interference of the psion upon reaching the arena, where it arrives in the evening and has to wait til morning.
Well, most DMs (far as I know) allow both Hyperconscious and UTP if they allow psionics at all, as one was written by the author of the XPH, and the other is widely considered better-written than most official material (and by the official Pathfinder psionics people, no less).

And having a permanent astral construct without the creator nearby doesn't work, because the creator has to direct the construct as it goes. If the construct is there, so is the creator.

The rest of it I can swing with, although not the crafting, as I mentioned.
1) I've played in multiple games where psionics was used, but not UTP or Hyperconscious.

2) What difference does it make? Are you planning to buff and/or heal the construct, or interact with it while it fights? When I play a shaper, I never do that, as I don't want to be in combat and/or waste more power points on a temporary construct. So I don't think that's a realistic scenario at all. It's also not construct vs. fighter, it's construct + psion vs. fighter, which seems to be counter to the purpose here. If you're not planning to do that, then what difference does it make?
Astral Construct + psion + Ectoskeleton (UTP) = extremely dangerous vegan meatshield (with meatshield filling).

So the construct is the outer shell with psion as the nougat.

Also, no direct damage, SoDs, debuff powers, or battlefield control.

It's a great way to optimize the Astral Construct power.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 27, 2011, 08:00:41 PM
Yeah I figured "Power Armor" when I saw one of your posts.  I think it's kind of against the spirit of the thread.  I think it's literally about the AC vs the Fighter.  Granted, the Manifester has to make the AC, and if the Manifester has feats and abilities to improve the AC, the AC gets improved - I don't think anyone is at all against that.

But the AC+Fester vs the Fighter; Fighter loses badly.  Then again, I think the AC on its own also loses badly to the Fighter at all levels of optimization.

So maybe we can meet in the middle, like the Shark vs the Bear in a shallow river where neither's maneuverability is affected.  The Manifester can direct the AC from outside the Arena but maybe that should be the limit of the Manifester's interaction besides the initial creation of said AC.  Otherwise, the Fighter is definitely posting "Incantatrix Want Ads" all over town before this goes down.  I think that I would personally allow any kind of "AC only" Powers to be used.

Again, it's about the spirit of what is being asked.  A commoner buffed to the gills by other guys is better than a Fighter on his own;  is an Astral Construct on its own better than a Fighter on its own?  At least I think that's what is the heart of the matter.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 27, 2011, 08:08:25 PM
Fair enough, although if you'll note, that was a nice piece of astral construct op-fu, and as you already noted, it's quite probable that the fighter would lose. Note that I could do the exact same thing with my psicrystal.

I'll forego Ectoskeleton, then.

I'll still make a good showing, I think.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Necrosnoop110 October 27, 2011, 09:22:48 PM
Yeah I figured "Power Armor" when I saw one of your posts.  I think it's kind of against the spirit of the thread.  I think it's literally about the AC vs the Fighter.
That was my intention, at least.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: oslecamo October 27, 2011, 09:32:53 PM
Fair enough, although if you'll note, that was a nice piece of astral construct op-fu, and as you already noted, it's quite probable that the fighter would lose. Note that I could do the exact same thing with my psicrystal.

I'll forego Ectoskeleton, then.

I'll still make a good showing, I think.

Would you just mind stoping to bring homebrew? Otherwise the fighter sides reserves itself the side of picking any non-wotc material they want as well. All you've shown so far is that the AC can win if you bring in enough 3rd party material for the psion, which is completely irrelevant when the fighter is limited to just wotc books.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 27, 2011, 09:44:58 PM
I think we're still feeling out the "rules of engagement" and nothing appears to be concrete.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 27, 2011, 11:26:54 PM
If the astral construct is permanent can't you do non typical things such as have the construct wear armor made for him, or coat himself with lotus poison?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: PhaedrusXY October 28, 2011, 12:43:38 AM
If the astral construct is permanent can't you do non typical things such as have the construct wear armor made for him, or coat himself with lotus poison?
If you have to resort to that, then you have already lost.  :P
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: ninjarabbit October 28, 2011, 01:09:06 AM
This will end up being like the fighter vs animal companion thread where ther fighter was a little bit better but the gap was close enough to where a fighter could be replaced in a party by an animal companion or in this case an astral construct without losing too much (and actually gaining a bit since the party doesn't have to share treasure with the the animal or astral construct).
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 28, 2011, 02:24:18 AM
If the astral construct is permanent can't you do non typical things such as have the construct wear armor made for him, or coat himself with lotus poison?
If you have to resort to that, then you have already lost.  :P
I disagree, I am just asking what are the rules of the engagement, and I am pointing out possible exploits prior to the engagement.   The rules need to be discussed before hand, if you do not talk about the rules before hand then you can't have a fair contest that satisfies everyone on a "fair fight."

Here are some possible questions I have off the top of my head.

1)  Is it really fair for the fighter to have a mount if the psion can't do anything after summoning the astral construct.
2)  If the psion can't do anything doesn't the fighter have a wealth by level advantage since the fighter has a full wealth by level while the psion can only buy things that help him buff his manifester score.
3)  How does psionic/magic transparency work?  Does this mean ioun stones raise manifester level.  How about the spell-gifted trait in UA (if traits are allowed) does this mean you can treat your metacreativity powers as 1 ml higher.
4)  Can the psion summon multiple astral constructs if he takes the constructor prestige class.  The 9th level ability (available at ecl 15) allows you to have up to 4 astral constructs out at one time for the cost of 6 extra power points.  Torc of Power Preservation (either old or new) allows you 1 extra pp, overchannel+talented gives you 3 extra pp that is 4 extra pp (and thus 2 extra constructs) effectively for free
5)  Is 4 on 1 fair?
Etc...

This will end up being like the fighter vs animal companion thread where ther fighter was a little bit better but the gap was close enough to where a fighter could be replaced in a party by an animal companion or in this case an astral construct without losing too much (and actually gaining a bit since the party doesn't have to share treasure with the the animal or astral construct).
Agreed.  The strength of the Astral Construct as a "beat stick" is that it takes effectively nothing for a psion/shaper (an already T2 class) to bring him out.  All you need to do is memorize the power synchronicity and take the feat linked power.  The Astral Construct appears in round 2, and due to synchroncicity regiving you your standard action you didn't even lose your action, the only cost for the astral construct beat stick is some pp, your psionic focus, 1 power known, and 1 feat.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: nijineko October 28, 2011, 04:08:40 AM
i lean towards the psion being allowed to manifest astral construct boosts after the fight start. if it is really fig vs astcon then there should only be one astcon in the arena, but the psion should be allowed to do something like manifest repair ectoplasm via psicrystal, to simulate healing, etc., but no direct or indirect influence on the fight except via the astcon.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 28, 2011, 09:48:04 AM
... How in the world would it not be fair for the fighter (who may be a mounted charger) to have a mount?  ??? Particularly if he got it by a feat? Or by spending wealth? Or... you know I'm just not sure what that sort of question is doing there.

Psion is not equal to mount.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 28, 2011, 01:37:32 PM
... How in the world would it not be fair for the fighter (who may be a mounted charger) to have a mount?  ??? Particularly if he got it by a feat? Or by spending wealth? Or... you know I'm just not sure what that sort of question is doing there.

Psion is not equal to mount.

I agree but...for different reasons.

I think (and I could be wrong) that part of this is "PC Fighter" vs "summoned Astral Construct".  PC's have wealth, so the Fighter really should be able to spend his wealth on "whatever"; he is a frickin PC.  While the Manifesting PC has wealth (and should have no restrictions on using that wealth to improve his *summoning* capabilities), the summoned Astral Construct DOES NOT HAVE WEALTH - he is a frickin summoned creature with no wealth. 

Otherwise this turns more into wealth optimization than char op IMO.

Plus, Ride is one of a *piddly handful* of class skills for the Fighter, so actually using his class ability does require having a mount of some kind.  Just saying.

Also, we can do a "no mount" scenario later on.  Or it can be one of the things that Team Astral Construct wants to veto if Team Fighter objects to something else.  Tit for tat.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: sirpercival October 28, 2011, 01:44:38 PM
I think this whole "competition" is kind of silly.  The simple fact that this discussion exists shows once again that summoners (including shapers) are much superior BSFs than BSFs.  Who cares if a given optimized fighter can beat a given optimized astral construct?  Which one is more efficient and cost-effective for a party?

A more interesting question (to me) is, which is better -- the BSFs produced by an arcane summoner, a divine summoner, or a shaper, all of a given level?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Midnight_v October 28, 2011, 01:48:59 PM
Psion is not equal to mount.
Being generally uninvested in but (admittedly vaguely interested)this argument, it occurs to me: "That would depend on the mount" wouldn't it?
  Unless of course we break out the: "No sane Dm would allow that" about certain mount options.
No sane Dm is a terrible fallacy btw but still.
This will end up being like the fighter vs animal companion thread where ther fighter was a little bit better but the gap was close enough to where a fighter could be replaced in a party by an animal companion or in this case an astral construct without losing too much (and actually gaining a bit since the party doesn't have to share treasure with the the animal or astral construct).
 I think you might be right and not having to share the treasure/xp with an astral construct is a boon in some ways, but... when I read this thread.
Two things jump out:
1. People play D&D in vastly different ways (Is xp a river, or something else? And, what then?)
and really thats a variable that seems to keep people disagreeing and disatisfied. As illustrated by the scenario "countering" above etc...  :rollseyes
2. There is an oppurtunity cost inherent, in using a fighter as opposed to a "drone", but in the single event 1 fall match, the fighter MAY well win. Which is fine, as it isn't designed to illustate which is a better option in a game over all. Which totally depends on defining the first point.
edit: Somewhat swordsaged my point sirpercival
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Kajhera October 28, 2011, 02:27:24 PM
When I say 'psion is not equal to mount' I did not mean that a psion could not be used as a mount.

...

I meant that the mount is a function of a fighter, while the astral construct is a function of a psion. It would be like saying, 'The mount can't have the fighter if the psion can't have his construct'. It just doesn't make much sense.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: skydragonknight October 28, 2011, 02:35:16 PM
I personally consider a mount part of a fighting style. There should be no issue as long as the mount doesn't attack the astral construct...right?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Endarire October 28, 2011, 06:09:47 PM
Based on preliminary calcuations, a Hood Fighter10 with standard wealth, access to all 3.x using the latest stuff, and a 42 point buy can take out a single level 9 Astral Construct (a CR10).  It's just a brute on brute fight.

It's when the Fighter is expected to take on more than that when things become difficult.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: X-Codes October 28, 2011, 06:25:55 PM
I think this whole "competition" is kind of silly.  The simple fact that this discussion exists shows once again that summoners (including shapers) are much superior BSFs than BSFs.  Who cares if a given optimized fighter can beat a given optimized astral construct?  Which one is more efficient and cost-effective for a party?
Frankly, the competition is only interesting because the AC gets flight at a much lower level than your typical BSF, so the BSF would have trouble dealing with an AC between the times that the AC flies and the BSF starts flying.  A summoner's minions, while good, can't replace the entirety of a BSF.  Just not quite that good.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: nijineko October 28, 2011, 06:26:24 PM
if the mount attacks, does the psicrystal get to attack the fighter too? (i'm chuckling about this thread now...)

here are some suggested parameters:

arena: three bouts, three environments: one neutral, one each favorable to each side. ring-out zones should be established, to allow for bull rushes, etc..

combat: fig vs astcon, not psion. indirect support from one's own side is allowed, however.
(since this is pc vs summoned, i think that anything the pc acquires by means of class feature, feat, race, special ability, or wealth is fair to use vs astcon.)

sources:
option 1)100% official wotc only is one possibility.  
option 2) wotc + pf.  
option 3) wotc + author's works.  
option 4) wotc+ pf + authors of either.


anything else?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: awaken DM golem October 28, 2011, 06:26:47 PM
<snip>
<snip>
I disagree ...

 :(    :sobbing ... shh ... there there, kitty avatar. When they fight, they still love each other.

: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 28, 2011, 08:54:52 PM
I say for fairness we allow the fighter to have a mount that allows some mobility but does not allow superb mobility.  For example a fighter flying on several different forms of dragons can get a 200+ flight speed.  Combine this fighter with an archery build or a ride by attack and the fighter can attack while the dragon just merely moves so fast the astral construct can't counter attack.  In effect the mount allows the fighter to be superbly more mobile than what you can normally do with magic items (but not necessary spells such as Phantom Steed)

So as a compromise I suggest this be the "generic" mount the fighter gets, even though in theory a fighter in a non arena game can get a better mount.   I also think it is fair to allow the mount hd to be advanced for free to whatever hit dice the fighter is. (I am posting some of the stats that are releated to a mount).

Drakkensteeds from Dragon Magic p113
So in sum the fighter gets a mount to allow mount releated feats and items (such as damage boost from lances), but he doesn't get such a superb mount where the mount is practically an animal companion.  Nor the mount allows tactics that a normal fighter couldn't do via magic items.

Furthermore I think it is fair to prohibit the mount from every attacking.

This seems fair to the other guys?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Midnight_v October 28, 2011, 09:24:42 PM
I think that sounds pretty fair.

Are the astral construct rule as presented in the Xph good or are they updated heavily in the Cpsi?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Phoenix00 October 28, 2011, 09:42:56 PM
I think that sounds pretty fair.

Are the astral construct rule as presented in the Xph good or are they updated heavily in the Cpsi?
From memory, complete psionic nerfed Astral Construct to only 1 construct at a time, I do not remember any other changes to Astral Construct from complete psionic, complete psionic did introduce some minor feats to improve astral constructs called ectopic feats.  Most DM ignore this nerf unless they only limit 1 summon nature ally or 1 summon monster at a time for it makes no sense to limit Psionics but not touch Arcane and Divine.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Midnight_v October 28, 2011, 10:14:49 PM
^K. Cool...
Just noticed this:  :lol

No DM is going to allow that kind of BS in a real game. :rollseyes

Well... No TRUE Scottman would put up with such talk!  :eh
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Endarire October 28, 2011, 11:40:10 PM
Assumptions
42 point buy.  No level adjustment.  Standard wealth by level.  Limit 2 flaws and traits.  All 3.5 material available, including unupdated 3.0.  Latest errata for everything.  No magazines nor third party.  Level bonuses applied to form changes, such as via polymorph.  PCs get max HP on first HD and average HP for other HD.  Battle Jump requires at least a standard action to trigger.

It's just the astral construct vs. the Fighter.  2 buff rounds.

Build Summary
This guy figures he has one hit.  It's all or nothing.  Therefore, his build is around getting in that one lovely hit that will down this nasty level 9 astral construct.  With all his accuracy buffs and using Deep Impact, he can hit this construct's touch AC on a natural 2.

Just in case he doesn't go first, he has Combat Reflexes, Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, and a Spiked Chain.

The Hidden Talent power doesn't matter much.  Getting him 2PP is enough for his Deep Crystal weapon.  He expends his Psionic Focus to trigger Deep Impact then the 2PP to fuel the Deep Crystal weapon.

With these rules, he doesn't even need proficiency to hit.

I wasn't sure how legal an item of heroics was for extra feats.  This build performs well, even without it.

Warforged Stats
26 STR = 18 base + 2 levels + 2 item + 4 expansion
14 DEX = 18 - 2 template + 2 item - 4 expansion
18 CON = 12 base + 2 race + 2 template + 2 item
14 INT = 14 base
6 WIS = 8 base - 2 race
6 CHA = 8 base - 2 race

Dragonborn Warforged Fighter10
1: {Aggressive}, {Quick}, {Shaky}, {Vulnerable}
1: [Battle Jump], Combat Reflexes, Hidden Talent: astral construct, Improved Initiative
2: [Power Attack]
3: Psionic Weapon
4: [Improved Trip]
6: [Martial Study: Shield Block], Deep Impact
8: [Combat Expertise]
9: Leap Attack
10: [Martial Stance; Thicket of Blades]

Relevant Equipment (49,000G is ECL10 Wealth by Level)
-Deep Crystal +1 Construct Bane Valorous Spiked Chain (effectively a +3 weapon)
-Item of expansion at manifester level 7
-Item of a Devoted Spirit maneuver (Shield Block chosen)
+2 STR, +2 DEX, and +2 CON items
+Jump item

He has plenty of wealth to spare, but his defenses don't mean much.  He'll probably be hit anyway.

Damage Analysis
12d6 Huge Spiked Chain base damage (3d6) x4 from Battle Jump, Dragonborn Dive, and a Valorous weapon
+ 2d6 (Deep Crystal)
+ 2d6+8 (Construct Bane with the plus quadrupled)
+160 (Power Attack with Leap Attack x4)
+4 (+1 weapon x4)
+32 (+8 STR modifier x4)

Final Notes
Y'all can probably do better.  Then again, if this Hood hits with everything, he should expect to one-shot said Construct.  Taking Leaping Dragon Stance may be better than Thicket of Blades for reliable jump attacks.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Midnight_v October 28, 2011, 11:56:22 PM
I hate these stupid fights...  :nonono

You'll need and item of see invisibility.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: X-Codes October 29, 2011, 01:23:40 PM
I hate these stupid fights...  :nonono

You'll need and item of see invisibility.
Ring of the Darkhidden + Iron Heart Vest [IHS]

Use IHS to put out the sun, be invisible with Ring of the Darkhidden.  Perfect victory!
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 29, 2011, 02:10:25 PM
I think that sounds pretty fair.

Are the astral construct rule as presented in the Xph good or are they updated heavily in the Cpsi?
From memory, complete psionic nerfed Astral Construct to only 1 construct at a time, I do not remember any other changes to Astral Construct from complete psionic, complete psionic did introduce some minor feats to severely nerf astral constructs called ectopic feats.  Most DM ignore this nerf unless they only limit 1 summon nature ally or 1 summon monster at a time for it makes no sense to limit Psionics but not touch Arcane and Divine.
Fixed that for you.

And it doesn't matter if we use them or not, since the psion would only get one AC anyway.

I agree that the fighter can use a drakkensteed, assuming he pays for it. And if it doesn't have a listed cost, go with a cost that seems reasonable.

And we can go with Endarire's setup, if everyone else is okay with it. I'll use it to do my setup, assuming 'net sources are allowed (since The Mind's Eye IS official 3.5).
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Nachofan99 October 29, 2011, 02:50:34 PM


And it doesn't matter if we use them or not, since the psion would only get one AC anyway.

I agree that the fighter can use a drakkensteed, assuming he pays for it. And if it doesn't have a listed cost, go with a cost that seems reasonable.

And we can go with Endarire's setup, if everyone else is okay with it. I'll use it to do my setup, assuming 'net sources are allowed (since The Mind's Eye IS official 3.5).

Looks pretty fair all around.  Let's see some builds.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 29, 2011, 04:04:39 PM
Also, Endarire? Is that Expansion item a custom one?

If so, it's a no-go. Unless you have UPD and it's a power stone?
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Endarire October 29, 2011, 08:57:17 PM
Psionic tattoo of expansion at ML7.  I assumed it worked.
: Re: Astral Construct vs Fighter
: Lycanthromancer October 29, 2011, 09:12:18 PM
I'm going to assume that only effects that last 24 hours or more are in effect, which basically means that only Midnight Augmentation has actually been activated. I have a few options for 9-hour powers, but I don't really need them.

Okay, 42 point buy, two flaws (really doesn't matter which ones, as they won't affect anything either way -- Noncombatant and Vulnerable?), no traits.

Human shaper 5/constructor 5 (used Favored Contact from Cityscape, then retrained it away once I got into constructor and had enough skill ranks to sustain it).

90 pp
85.5 average hp

Str - 8
Dex - 8
Con - 18 (+2 item) = 20
Int - 16 (+2 item) = 20
Wis - 16 (+2 item) 18
Cha - 14

FEATS:
Flaw 1 - Psicrystal Affinity (Single-Minded)
Flaw 1 - Linked Power
Racial - Overchannel
HD 1 - Midnight Augmentation
Psion 1 - Boost Construct
HD 3 - Psicrystal Containment
Psion 5 - Metamorphic Transfer
HD 6 - Psionic Meditation
HD 9 - Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
Constructor 9 - Boost Construct (2)

PSICRYSTAL FEATS
HD 1 - Hidden Talent (Precognition, Seer 1)
HD 3 - Twin Power
HD 6 - Practiced Manifester
HD 9 - Protection Devotion

Items:
[spoiler]Torc of power preservation (MIC, 4,000 gp)
Bead of karma (DMG, 20,000 gp)
+10 skill shard (UMD, XPH, 1,000 gp)
Synaptic Mask (Hyperconscious, 3,000 gp, not relevant to this game, but an awesome item anyway)
Lesser rod of Extend (DMG 3,000 gp, totally not necessary, but still nice)
+2 Con item (4,000 gp)
+2 Int item (4,000 gp)
+2 Wis item (4,000 gp)

TOTAL SPENT: 43,000 gp[/spoiler]

RELEVANT POWERS
[spoiler]1. Astral Construct
1. Ecto Protection
1. Psionic Minor Creation
1. Vigor
1. Synchronicity
1. Hammer
1 Seer. Precognition (Hidden Talent)
2. Share Pain
4. Dimension Door, Psionic[/spoiler]

SKILLS:
Full ranks in:
UMD (Cross-Class, 6 ranks), Concentration, Craft (Poisons), Psi

Tactics:
[spoiler]Earlier that day, adds 1 point of essentia to Midnight Augmentation (Astral Construct) to lower the augmentation cost by 1 (-1 total, not -1 per augment cycle). Ensure I have both psionic focuses active.

Buff rounds:
[spoiler]FIRST
--Standard action: Overchanneled (by +1, -1d8 damage) Feat Leech (on psicrystal, which forgoes its saving throws) to gain Hidden Talent, Twin Power, and Practiced Manifester, which is Linked to Metamorphosis (choker) for next round. Cost: One focus, 10 pp, and -1d8 damage (average 4.5).
--Move action: Regain focus
--Swift action: Hammer Linked with Psionic Minor Creation to create a Huge-sized Guisarme on the ground in front of me. Cost: 2 pp and one focus

SECOND
--Psicrystal's Action: Activate Protection Devotion
--Free action: Use Metamorphic Transfer to grab the Quickness Su ability of the choker.
--Choker standard action: Manifest Precognition on self for +2 to one roll. Cost: 1 pp.
--Swift action: Manifest Overchanneled (+2) Ecto Protection (1 pp), Linked with Astral Construct (17-1=16 pp). Use torc of power preservation (+1 ML) and use UMD to activate bead of karma for +4 manifester levels for 10 minutes. (Precognition grants +2 and skill shard grants +10 to UMD (for a total of +19 to emulate class feature (divine spellcasting) and a success on a natural 1). This results in a manifester level of 9 + 1 (Practiced Manifester) + 4 (bead) + 2 (Overchannel) + 1 (torc) = ML 17, with -1 to the augment cost for Midnight Augmentation. Costs 17 pp, -3d8 damage, and one psionic focus. ESSENTIALLY this means that I now have a level 9 astral construct coming by next round. MANIFESTER LEVEL is now 14 for as long as the bead and the Feat Leech  both last.
--Full-round action: Delay until right before fighter's first turn.[/b][/spoiler]

FIRST ROUND
[spoiler]Get initiative on fighter through delay. Astral construct appears at the beginning of my turn.
--Move action: Regain focus
--Choker standard action: Twinned Synchronicity. Cost: 7 pp
--Synchronicity standard action: Use torc with Vigor for 75 temp hp (Cost: 15 pp)
--Synchronicity standard action: Manifest Share Pain on astral construct (Cost: 3 pp)
--Regular standard action: Regain focus
--Swift action: Hammer (manifested on construct) Linked with Psionic Minor Creation to create whichever of these poisons (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.msg162790#msg162790) I feel like the fighter in question could be affected by; if the fighter is undead or a warforged, skip this step. Cost: 2 pp and one focus

ASTRAL CONSTRUCT'S ROUND
--Move action: Pick up Guisarme from ground
--Standard action: Ready grapple when fighter comes within guisarme reach to trip
--Free action: Attack of opportunity to grapple.[/spoiler]

The astral construct has the following stats, and PROBABLY beats the fighter on initiative, due to my delaying:

[spoiler]9th Level Astral Construct
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 19d10+40 (144 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 37 (+25 natural, -2 size, +4 Protection Devotion), touch 12, flatfooted 37
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+40
Attack: Slam +30 melee (2d6+18) or guisarme +26 melee (3d6+27)
Full Attack: 2 Slams +30 melee (2d6+18) or guisarme +26/+21/+16 melee (3d6+27)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. (15 ft./30 ft. with guisarme)
Special Attacks: Constrict, Improved Grab
Special Qualities: Four abilities from Menu C, construct traits, Blindsight 60', damage reduction 15/magic, darkvision 60 ft., lowlight vision, Natural Invisibility
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +6
Abilities: Str 47, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -
Alignment: Neutral
Menu Picks: "Menu B: Fly 40' (average), Muscle (+4 Str)
Menu C: Blindsight 60', Constrict, Natural Invisibility"
   
Construct Traits: An astral construct has immunity to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects or is harmless.  It is not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.  It cannot heal damage, but it can be repaired.

Blindsight (Ex):   The astral construct has blindsight out to 60 feet.

Constrict (Ex):  On a successful grapple check, the astral construct deals damage equal to its slam attack.

Improved Grab (Ex):  To use this ability, the construct must hit with its slam attack.  A construct can use this ability only on a target that is at least one size smaller than itself.)

Natural Invisibility (Su): The astral construct is constantly invisible, even when attacking.  This abilty is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.[/spoiler]

It takes half-damage on a hit, and is wielding a Psionic Minor Creation-fashioned ironwood guisarme that doubles its reach to 30' and deals 3d6 + 27 damage (though it takes a -4 to hit on a flat-footed-due-to-invisibility attack). It uses its slams if the fighter gets within 15', and attempts to grapple.

The psion Metamorphosises into something incredibly difficult to damage (like a Superior Invisibility'd pixie, or an ooze, for the bonuses vs piercing and slashing against a lance-using opponent), and hides under the AC, using it as cover.

-------------------------------

Okay, guys. I PROBABLY made a few errors here, given how quickly I did this, so let me know if you find any, 'kay?