Author Topic: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.  (Read 13906 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Hi is a first level Druid. His hobbies include long walks in the woods, gazing at the starlit sky, and demonstrating the superiority of nature. Of course he's also only level 1, which means he only has Entangle, his choice of pewpewpew with Produce Flame or beatdown with a Shillelagh, and a Fighter as a class feature. Poor Hi. Whatever shall he do? Oh right, train it as a warbeast prior to game start. It now looks something like this:

[spoiler]Hit Dice:      3d8+12 (25 hp)
Initiative:     +2
Speed:     60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class:     14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple:     +2/+5
Attack:     Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack:     Bite +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach:     5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:     —
Special Qualities:     Combative mount, link, low-light vision, scent, share spells
Saves:     Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities:     Str 16, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills:     Jump +14, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +4, Survival +2*
Feats:      TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite) (one extra)[/spoiler]

So then you throw studded leather barding on it and it has about the same AC as a hypothetical fighter at this level, a little less DPS, about twice the HP, and a free trip. Better saves and double the move speed too. At level 1. Thereby proving that in Soviet Russia, warbeast rides you! Hell, you could practically spend the time at levels 1 and 2 admiring the plant life while your canine friend eats all the enemies for you. Oh and you get another feat already. Power Attack and Improved Initiative are good choices here. There are plenty of other options too.

You think that's bad? Then you hit level 3.

[spoiler]Hit Dice:      5d8+20 (42 hp)
Initiative:     +3
Speed:     60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class:     17 (+3 Dex, +4 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple:     +3/+6
Attack:     Bite +8 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack:     Bite +8 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach:     5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:     —
Special Qualities:     Combative mount, evasion, link, low-light vision, scent, share spells
Saves:     Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities:     Str 17, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills:     Jump +14, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +4, Survival +2*
Feats:      TrackB, Weapon Focus (bite) (one extra)[/spoiler]

Not bad. With studded leather barding you have an AC of 20, which again shoves it to the beatstick by matching him while now tripling his speed (as 20 AC on a Fighter would require heavy armor, thus move 20). All of the other stats, except DPS are also scaling ahead of them. Your damage leaves a bit to be desired but the free trip is nice. Oh and Hi is level 3 now. He takes Natural Bond, which doesn't do anything. Yet.

Until he hits level 4. You know what comes at level 4, don't you? :evillaugh

In case you don't, I'll give you a hint. It's in the MM3, and it might or might not pilot fighter aircraft in its spare time. It also might or might not have been specially bred to be FASTER, STRONGER, AND MORE WARLIKE THAN EVER BEFORE!

I bring you... the Magebred Warbeast Fleshraker! :evillaugh

And then the moment you bond with it it evolves into WHARGABUL due to Natural Bond, getting EVEN STRONGER! :evillaugh

And to the beatsticks a hearty :fo. You know, just in case they didn't get the point already.

The fleshraker, being not OGL content can't be reposted in its entirety.

But I can still post all the juicy bits. Say Hi to Welcome!



66 HP (and 7 HD)! Holy shit.
AC 28/16/22 without barding! Huzzah for Thick Skinned Breed!

4 natural attacks, 2 at +11 to hit and 2 at +9 to hit with the primaries doing 1d6+7 each and the secondaries doing 1d6+3 each. If charging (and you will be) you even get a free rake. You also get 3 chances for a 1d6 Dex poison at DC 18, a free trip at +7, and if that works a free grapple at +11. The only downside to these last two abilities is that they only work on Medium or smaller creatures. Oh and you get automatic claw and rake damage on a successful grapple. I'm not sure how the hell rake damage is supposed to be calculated, but it's still free. Remember kids, this is at level 4. Which means it's like having your very own Giant Enemy Crab, sans the weak point for massive damage. Consider buffing your friend up for even more carnage. A shared Bear's Endurance is a good choice, and also makes its poison even stronger. Bull's Strength gives more DPS. Plenty of options there. You also get a feat for HD advancement. I suggest Power Attack, because you probably have the attack bonus to use it.

Getting to level 5 should be no problem. Now as a Druid you get Wild Shape. Which means you can turn into a Fleshraker too if you want. Your friend is stronger than you though so it might not be worth it. Or you can continue summoning Pokeymons for flanking buddies and such. You're a Druid, you have options.

But you think that's broken? Oh no... we're not done yet! Level 6 is the best level of all! Because at level 6 we get... no, not Natural Spell you fool. Better than that! But first let's check on our dino friend!

He now has 9 HD. Which gives him 85 HP. At level 6.
His AC is now 30/16/24. Again without even counting barding.
His attacks are now at +14/+14/+12/+12, doing 1d6+8/1d6+8/1d6+4/1d6+4.
His saves are now 11/13/6 (10 vs enchantment).
He gets another feat, which we will make Improved Initiative.

But... wait a second...

Quote
Advancement: 5–8 HD (Medium); 9–12 HD (Large)

 :lmao

Holy fucking shit, our dino isn't overpowered enough already what with all that shit and DC 19 poison to boot.

It needs MOAR DAKKA!

Quote
Medium      Large      +8 str      -2 dex      +4 con      +2 natural armor      -1 attacks/AC

So now it has 103 HP, +17/+15 to hit with +12/+6 added damage. Its AC is the same overall, but it loses 2 touch AC and gains 2 flat footed AC. Its trip is now +16 and its grapple now +22 and works on Large or smaller creatures. -1 Reflex saves, trade 5 Hide for 4 Jump. I also think you get reach now, which makes it even more broken. Oh and +2 poison DCs also for a total of 21.

Now remember what I was saying about something better than Natural Spell?

Turns out the team of Hi Welcome has gained a lot of renown. And you know how it is when you're famous. People love writing stories and singing about how awesome you are.

You guessed it! Leadership for a Bard! But not just any Bard, oh no. This fellow takes pride in his performance. When he spreads the good word of Hi Welcome everywhere, he wants everyone to remember and repeat it!

So he has Song of the Heart, a Badge of Valor, and the Inspirational Boost spell along with a MW horn.

At which point combat goes something like this:

Bard blows the Horn of Awesome(tm). Hi summons Pokeymans or fleshraker charges or whatever. Welcome eats enemies' faces with a +4 to hit/damage boost, PAing for full for a final result of +17/+17/+15/+15 to hit and 1d8 +22/+22/+16/+16 damage. If for some reason enemies actually survive this the Bard uses his Badge on the next round for another +1 to hit and damage.

Hi Welcome easily hits level 8, and his cohort hits 6. Now Hi can Wild Shape into Large creatures. Unfortunately he can't pick an advanced to Large Fleshraker. Too bad. Welcome doesn't get any better... but level 6 Bards can take Words of Creation. Which means double the song benefits. He also takes some minor nonlethal damage which can just be wandwhipped away.

At this point beatsticks everywhere commit ritual suicide, and you win. The enemies won't have given up though, but they'll quickly become flayed dino food once the +8/+10 Ode to Hi Welcome starts playing.

This build is completely playable 1-20. It is a bit front loaded, and past this point it stops scaling as quickly. More to the point you're also close to the point where HP damage in any amount isn't really a good contribution. But you're a fucking Druid, I'm sure you'll think of something to stay awesome. You'd have a hard time not doing so.

Pretty simple to build.

Race: Must be something with a bonus feat or this build will not work. Human or Strongheart Halfling are both good choices, and the latter also lets you ride your dog and later, dinosaur. If you're in Eberron you'll fit right in. Any other race is fine as long as it has a bonus feat and is LA 0. If you can get some Con and/or Wis out of the deal, even better. I don't recommend the halfling Druid thing. It doesn't do a whole lot for you. If you have an alternate means of getting a bonus feat or ignoring the need for Spell Focus: Conjuration you can pick any race you want that doesn't penalize Con or Wis. If you have an alternate means of getting another feat (flaws) you can pick any race you want that doesn't penalize Con or Wis.

If you really have your heart set on something that doesn't give a bonus feat, consider Greenbound Summoning instead of Augment Summoning. Note this will require your cohort to take a special feat in order to bolster your Pokemon army. Namely, this one.

Quote
Green Ear CV: You can affect plants with your mind-affecting bardic music-like abilities, but they receive a huge save against them. I only find this useful for allies with the plant subtype, so that they receive the bonuses of your songs. For example, a druid/bard pair with greenbound summoning, this feat and optimized inspire courage can produce really impressive summons.

Note though that he won't actually be able to take this until level 7 (actually 9, because you get no feat at 7 or 8) which delays access to songs that work on your summons for 5 levels. So there are significant drawbacks to this approach instead of it being a given.

Your cohort's race can also be anything LA 0 as long as it doesn't penalize a stat other than Str or Wis.

Feats:

1: Spell Focus: Conjuration.
H: Augment Summoning.
3: Natural Bond.
6: Leadership.
9: Natural Spell.
12: Whatever you want.
15: Whatever you want.
18: Whatever you want.

Extend Spell and Improved Initiative are good choices, as are many others. You could consider Greenbound instead of Augment Summoning and take Augment Summoning later. If your bard cohort has Green Ear, his songs will still work on your summons (but remember you're level 11 by this point and missed out on songs for 6-10). However you will be unable to use animal specific spells on them which means it is most useful at lower levels (where you're already insanely overpowered) and less useful at higher levels (where this specific strategy becomes less effective, even though Druids themselves are still awesome). Otherwise +6 NA, possible damage die increase, at will entangle, 1/day wall of thorns, low level DR, FH 3, +4 grapple, cold and electric resist 10, tremorsense 60, +6/+2/+4/+0/+0/+4 stats and +16 conditional racial bonus would be too awesome to pass up. Even if you can't use the SLAs at all, it still leaves no doubt in anyone's mind that FR was written for one purpose and one purpose only - to make insanely overpowered stuff.

For your cohort make sure you have Words of Creation at 6 and Song of the Heart at 1 or 3. Improved Initiative is also highly recommended to get songs up quickly. How you advance him depends on what you want him to do. If you want this guy fighting directly consider the stat substitution stuff and the usual gish stuff (arcane strike, etc). Between Knowledge Devotion, Inspire Courage, Arcane Strike, and something that lets you use your Cha to attack and damage you'll do decent DPS while having real defenses like mirror image and such to survive counterattacks. If you want him in more of a supporting role stick to things like Extend spell and such. Either way though he should have those defensive spells as he will become a target and while Druids can get enough AC to make enemies miss them from time to time, Bards really can't.

Stats are 8/8/14/10/18/10 which is 26 points. If you have any more points left throw them in Int or Cha or Con or something. You must have at least 10 cha or Leadership will not work in the manner I describe. Obviously you want Con min 14 because you're an adventurer and Wis maxed because you're a Druid.

For your cohort go 8/12/14/15/8/15 which is 26 points. If you have any more points throw them in Cha, Dex (up to 14), or Con. You must have Int and Cha 15 for Words of Creation, and more Cha is always nice.

Skills: Make sure to pump Handle Animal until the point of no further benefit (total modifier +11). That's good enough for any Warbeast training mentioned here along with the tricks and such you'll be teaching them. Speaking of which...

Make sure they have attack anything, along with whatever other tricks you want. You'll have plenty of room, so pick based on what you want to do.

For your cohort, I'd suggest lots of Knowledge skills (other than the ones you have), UMD, the usual Bard stuff. You'll have plenty of skill points to go around.

Gear: Doesn't really matter much. Studded leather barding for your animal friend is a good low level item, and consider upgrading later. Keep in mind a fleshraker probably won't be able to use the same barding as a riding dog, and once your fleshraker grows bigger it won't fit in its armor anymore either. There is surprisingly little room for improvement here, as Fleshrakers have a high Dex and you don't want your dino slowed down anyways. While there is nothing technically preventing an animal companion from using metal armor you're supposed to not like lots of metal, so opt for dragonscale alternatives if you go that route. For you a Wis item and a Con item will cover most of your basic needs. You have Barkskin if you care about AC, and Superior Resistance for your saves along with Wild Shape to attack so you don't need to worry about most of the usual suspects for items. An Animated wooden shield is a good choice and doesn't depend on Wilding Clasps, which you should load up on. Naturally this means you'll have plenty of money left, so consider spending some on nice items for your animal friend. MIC has a good selection, and str/con items are always nice. Also consider Bracers of Natural Attacks. The reason why the Amulet is 6k squared is because it's offslotted. Bracers aren't, so it comes out to be 4k/16k/36k/64k/100k for +1/+2/+3/+4/+5. Or you could just cast Superior Magic Fang (Greater at lower levels), whatever.

I'm sure this idea could be improved upon to make it even more broken. I wrote this because I was bored and felt like smiting any fools who think a Fighter is a worthwhile party member by showing them a Druid who cranks it to 11.

Contested point or people raining on my parade:

[spoiler]The Eberron Campaign Setting has a well hidden line saying that Druids (and Rangers, but no one cares) cannot have Magebred animal companions. Of course it was then stealth errataed in Five Nations to say that they can and if anything seems to give it to them 3 levels sooner. Of course this is extrapolation from the examples given. Without it you lose 4 natural armor, 4 str, 2 dex, 2 con and have to take multiattack as your 6 HD feat (since you won't get it for free) and power attack at 9 HD (delaying Improved Initiative to 12). But honestly, if your DM is letting you play this build to begin with I doubt he cares about taking the conservative reading of ambiguous rules. :P[/spoiler]

If you're even more of a bastard, it gets better!

[spoiler]
Craven is in the Champions of Ruin Faerun book, or some-such.  Venomfire + the Lesser Rod of Maximize is good.  Since the build is so RAW fuzzy, anyways, might as well go for broke.

Use Extra Spell to get into a single level of Sacred Exorcist.  Then use DMM: Persistant Spell on your Druid goodies (Sirine's Grace, for example).  And stack those Nightsticks for Bite of the Werebear and that Form of the [landshark] spell.  Nothing like having a 43 Str all day long.  Might as well add Nymph's Kiss and Touch of Golden Ice.  Don't forget to put Improved Unarmed Strike on yourself and that fleshraker: you want to add iterative attacks on top of your natural attacks, particularly after pouncing.  If that's too much, just use all that on your animal companion, and use your rod of maximize spell with Control Winds (while under a Control Weather) to have maximized tornado kill everyone (well, 30 damage per round over 10 rounds... plus falling damage... whatever).  Persist Stormlord (or whatever, SpC spell), and call yourself "Stormy", while flying around; make sure to share that last one with your Dire Polar Bear.  But why stop there?  Hire a spellcaster to make an eternal wand of Persistant Wraithstrike and Heroics (Power Attack), and crossclass UMD a bit.  Might as well use Divine Power and Righteous Might, too.  These are all things I did with my Druid when the DM forced casters to multiclass (one level of Cleric + the Planning and Undeath domains, the fool).  The DM was passing out Epic items to the other party members like crazy to help them keep up.  I'll never play a Druid again.

Honestly, I don't think advancing the size really matters if you're already using a fleshraker.
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 09:22:03 PM by Sunic_Flames »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Phoenix00

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2010, 03:52:35 PM »
If I remember correctly bonus HD is not the same as normal HD and thus you don't automatically advance to the next size category.  I believed this was addressed in the FAQ

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2010, 03:57:53 PM »
If I remember correctly bonus HD is not the same as normal HD and thus you don't automatically advance to the next size category.  I believed this was addressed in the FAQ

The FAQ, aka Skip Smokes Crack?

Even without that bit, this is still incredibly broken but is there a more... consistent source that says the same thing?
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

BeholderSlayer

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2010, 03:59:49 PM »
If I remember correctly bonus HD is not the same as normal HD and thus you don't automatically advance to the next size category.  I believed this was addressed in the FAQ
Yes, that's what the FAQ says.

If I remember correctly bonus HD is not the same as normal HD and thus you don't automatically advance to the next size category.  I believed this was addressed in the FAQ

The FAQ, aka Skip Smokes Crack?

Even without that bit, this is still incredibly broken but is there a more... consistent source that says the same thing?
Not that I know of.
Hi Welcome
[spoiler]
Allow me to welcome you both with my literal words and with an active display of how much you fit in by being tone deaf, dumb, and uncritical of your babbling myself.[/spoiler]

Caelic

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2010, 04:16:28 PM »
No Initiate of Nature, so your fleshraker can have friends?

snakeman830

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »
I think it's actually mentioned in either the PHB or the MM that the bonus HD don't advance size categories.  I'm AFB, though, so I'll have to look it up later.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2010, 04:52:35 PM »
No Initiate of Nature, so your fleshraker can have friends?

I haven't done any 3.5 work in years. What is IoN?

Edit: The SRD says nothing of the sort. My actual PHB has only this to say:

Quote
An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus
HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice (see the Monster
Manual).

No mention one way or the other, but a pointer for advancing monster HD by the MM.

The MM says absolutely nothing about animal companions not growing in size. It just explains the rules for size increases with HD advancement.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 05:16:05 PM by Sunic_Flames »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Lunaramblings

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2010, 05:05:37 PM »
Strong Heart Halfling. Gets Bonus feat, plus qualifies for the Halfling Druid racial sub levels.

cru

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I love druids but this thread is a FAIL.
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2010, 06:25:51 PM »
> train it as a warbeast prior to character creation
You cannot, a 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind... you might try to apply the template after becoming druid 1, however:
* MM2 says warbeasts are born (i.e. not available as companions) (but I agree this is not really clear)
* MM2 says warbeast is not available for "war creatures", riding dog might be one of them (it is trained for war)
* A warbeast based on a wild animal must be reared for one year (Handle Animal DC 15 + HD of the warbeast), then trained for 2 months (Handle Animal DC 20 + HD of the warbeast).

> natural bond
uncertain if allowed

> magebred
not RAW at all

> size increase
FAQ says no, page 14: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
rules of the game says no: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a

> leadership
anyone can take leadership


anyone can buy magebred warbeast fleshrakers and take bard cohorts with leadership. how exactly does this make druid shine?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 06:29:10 PM by cru »

Sunic_Flames

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Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2010, 06:50:40 PM »
> train it as a warbeast prior to character creation
You cannot, a 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind... you might try to apply the template after becoming druid 1, however:
* MM2 says warbeasts are born (i.e. not available as companions) (but I agree this is not really clear)
* MM2 says warbeast is not available for "war creatures", riding dog might be one of them (it is trained for war)
* A warbeast based on a wild animal must be reared for one year (Handle Animal DC 15 + HD of the warbeast), then trained for 2 months (Handle Animal DC 20 + HD of the warbeast).

This is how they get it. I should have said before game start.

Quote
> natural bond
uncertain if allowed

Cannot raise effective Druid level over your actual Druid level. Which it doesn't.

Quote
> magebred
not RAW at all

What isn't RAW about buying and bonding with a magebred animal, other than that stealth errataed bit?

Quote
> size increase
FAQ says no, page 14: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
rules of the game says no: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a

Is rules of the game a credible source? If no, see Skip Smokes Crack. If yes, see spoiler block at the end.

Quote
> leadership
anyone can take leadership


anyone can buy magebred warbeast fleshrakers and take bard cohorts with leadership. how exactly does this make druid shine?

Animal companion boosts, share spells, the fact this is only a tiny fraction of what you can do (indeed, you aren't actually doing anything, your minions are doing it), the fact that the chances that a DM will let you buy magebred fleshrakers for a few hundred gold (obviously broken rule) are a lot lower than the odds you'll get a magebred animal companion (much tamer, and merely ambiguous rule)? How about that commanding an animal companion is much faster than commanding any other animal, such that your fleshraker can do any of the 10 tricks it knows by you commanding it as a free action? Anyone without this feature has to burn a move action which is mildly annoying for spellcasters and crippling for anyone else. Yes, even if you take Wild Cohort which is a watered down Animal Companion anyways.

The build would work better with an actual player running the Bard build but self sufficiency is key because chances are you're not going to get people on the same page as you.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 10:28:14 PM by Sunic_Flames »
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

thebigstupidfighter

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2010, 07:19:51 PM »
One (small) downside of this is you'll have to actually ressurect your companion if it dies, since you'll never get a chance to train another warbeast.

I don't know about the whole magebred thing, common sense tells me you shouldn't be allowed to do it, since magebred animals are not typical for their kind, unless there's something in the Five Nations specifically saying they're allowed to take them as a higher level companion or somesuch, do you have a page reference to such a rule?

I'd also like to point out that building your own Cohort is in no way allowable by RAW or RAI from what I can see, only way you get to do that is if you have a lazy DM (not that I'm by any means suggesting that isn't a possible or even likely scenario)

Whether this is really any good depends on the various components of it working. Advanced HD(Large) Magebred Warbeast Fleshraker its nothing WBL couldn't give you anyway, but I do agree this is more likely to fly in an actual game.

EDIT: Having seen the rule that is supposedly allowing you to take Magebred Companions, it seems clear to me that being allowed to do so would be nothing more than a houserule. If the designers wanted Magebred versions of animals generally available for Breelish Druids, they could have made that rule instead of giving two specific examples of magebred animals that were acceptable to take. This is still pretty good, considering that AFAIK Rules of the Game is not a widely accepted source, though I could be mistaken.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 07:31:57 PM by thebigstupidfighter »

jojolagger

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Re: I love druids but this thread is a FAIL.
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 07:25:36 PM »
> size increase
FAQ says no, page 14: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
rules of the game says no: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a
FAQ is well know as a bad source, and I can't see anything in the rules of the game that says no.
Considering the FAQ has been referred to as skip smokes crack, and the rules of the games is by skip, Rules of the games is likely equally credible as the FAQ.
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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2010, 07:43:17 PM »
an army of Pokeymans (backed up by Augment Summoning)
... Level one Summon Nature's Ally lasts for one round. Hardly an army.
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Re: I love druids but this thread is a FAIL.
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2010, 08:24:52 PM »
I can't see anything in the rules of the game that says no.
The animal companion, however, does not increase in size
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a

Skip Williams is one of the authors of MM2, so I guess you should not really use the warbeast template seriously.
Oh, he is one of the authors of PHB, so this entire discussion is based on Skip smoking crack.

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2010, 08:28:42 PM »
Sunic, what animal are you using at level 1 ?
You're talking about a free trip, which seems to me indicate that you're using a Riding Dog.
Riding dogs aren't a legal target for Warbeast.

Quote from: MM2
The Monster Manual describes a few “war creatures” that
have qualities similar to those of a warbeast but differ from
standard creatures of a given kind. These creatures are considered
to already have a separate “war template” and cannot
have the warbeast template added. For example, one cannot
apply the warbeast template to a heavy warhorse.

Quote from: MM
Combat

If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
.

It's clear that Riding Dogs that gain a trip attack can't be trained for war even more (adding Template).



If you're using another animal, either you're not saying what it is or I failed my spot check.
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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2010, 08:37:44 PM »
Sunic, what animal are you using at level 1 ?
You're talking about a free trip, which seems to me indicate that you're using a Riding Dog.
Wolf?
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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2010, 08:43:46 PM »
One (small) downside of this is you'll have to actually ressurect your companion if it dies, since you'll never get a chance to train another warbeast.

With stats like this, it's more likely YOU will die than it will. Though that is true, barring taking 2 months off you won't get your warbeast back otherwise.

> size increase
FAQ says no, page 14: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
rules of the game says no: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a
FAQ is well know as a bad source, and I can't see anything in the rules of the game that says no.
Considering the FAQ has been referred to as skip smokes crack, and the rules of the games is by skip, Rules of the games is likely equally credible as the FAQ.

Rules of the game actually does say no. But if it's Skip Smoking Crack again the only good thing about it is that he is being consistent for once.

an army of Pokeymans (backed up by Augment Summoning)
... Level one Summon Nature's Ally lasts for one round. Hardly an army.

I was being facetious. Though that is a good point. Fine. Pewpewpew with Produce Flame or swing a Shillelagh around. Better?

Sunic, what animal are you using at level 1 ?
You're talking about a free trip, which seems to me indicate that you're using a Riding Dog.
Riding dogs aren't a legal target for Warbeast.

Quote from: MM2
The Monster Manual describes a few “war creatures” that
have qualities similar to those of a warbeast but differ from
standard creatures of a given kind. These creatures are considered
to already have a separate “war template” and cannot
have the warbeast template added. For example, one cannot
apply the warbeast template to a heavy warhorse.

Quote from: MM
Combat

If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
.

It's clear that Riding Dogs that gain a trip attack can't be trained for war even more (adding Template).



If you're using another animal, either you're not saying what it is or I failed my spot check.

Fuck. Missed that. Ok. Use a normal Wolf at levels 1-3. You lose 2 str and I think everything else is the same. Including a natural trip ability, so it works fine.
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jojolagger

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Re: I love druids but this thread is a FAIL.
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2010, 09:55:32 PM »
Skip Williams is one of the authors of MM2, so I guess you should not really use the warbeast template seriously.
Oh, he is one of the authors of PHB, so this entire discussion is based on Skip smoking crack.
one of the authors. for all that means he could have only wrote the grappling rules in the PHB.


Back on topic, why shouldn't the animal increase in size? Size increase would likely be based on the animals growth and development.
Would would know the best way to raise such animals? Druids.


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There is: Kill shit and loot the corpse!
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Caelic

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2010, 10:24:17 PM »
I haven't done any 3.5 work in years. What is IoN?



Initiate of Nature is an often-overlooked feat in PGtF that allows you to rebuke or command plants and animals as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead.

Lasts a lot longer than SNA, too. ;)


As for the whole "That doesn't count because it's Skip Williams!"...c'mon, guys.  There's saying "We can't know RAI, so we use RAW," and then there's saying, "We don't like RAW, so we're going to find some way to discount the inconvenient parts."

It's WotC published material, by a WotC approved author who's been writing D&D material since damned near the beginning.  I don't recall seeing anything in the RAW saying "Rules written by Skip Williams don't count."
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 10:29:03 PM by Caelic »

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Re: Introducing Hi Welcome or shoving it to beatsticks at every level.
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2010, 10:25:40 PM »
I haven't done any 3.5 work in years. What is IoN?



Initiate of Nature is an often-overlooked feat in PGtF that allows you to rebuke or command plants and animals as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead.

Lasts a lot longer than SNA, too. ;)
Well hell... all you could command with that at first level are TOADS!... oh wait...