On lich style suck, and the fixing thereof.

[Sunic_Flames]

I assume everyone here already knows this and why. But for the benefit of the court, here are the reasons:

First, liches have an LA of 4. High LA is practically as a rule unworkable. Especially on a spellcaster, as they lose more by missing out on actual class levels. Here it means no 9th level spells until Epic, which just sucks. It's not even that good an LA 4. Minor stat and skill gains, and the whole respawning thing is done better via other, cheaper means.

Second, it's a double whammy penalty as you also have to pay 120,000 gp and 7,200 xp. You won't even have 120k gp at the minimum level you can become a lich (11) even if you sold everything you had and somehow got full price for it. You aren't doing it until later and even then it's still a sizeable chunk of your income. The XP cost comparatively isn't that big a deal. See: Riding the Gravy Train. Though the LA still fucks with it.

Ok, so now you're a lich. Great. You get some immunities... and you get some new weaknesses. At this level vs intelligent opponents your weaknesses matter more than your strengths. The biggest one is that an equal level cleric who hasn't optimized turning gets a coin toss to render you useless (turn) or their bitch (rebuke) with no save. The turn resist +4 offsets the 4 LA, leaving you counting as an undead with a HD = to your character level. And if they have Greater Turning? Sucks to be you. Also, Disintegrate, and you might actually lose HP here. You get the idea.

There's also a third one. By RAW you have to become evil. Now I don't mind that, but some DMs might and some players might. It's rather limited in what games you could do it in even if it didn't suck.

So now the question. How to make this cool concept not suck horribly in execution so it might actually be worth doing?

[Prime32]

I saw an arena game once where if you payed for the phylactery, you didn't have an LA. Then again, in that game you could play a gestalt cerebremancer/eldritch disciple.

Possible additions:

Remove the HD limit on the Fear Aura
Increase Turn Resistance to +8
The +8 racial skill bonuses include Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana)
Add SR equal to 11+character level
Ability bonuses are increased to +4 Int/Wis/Cha
Can create a cloud of mist at will which provides concealment and drains the Strength of adjacent creatures.
Bonus to caster level
Extra hp equal to Cha x HD



If you start as a lich, though, you can dump Con, and you still have 16d12 hp.

[Sunic_Flames]

Paying for the phylactery = no LA would help. As would those adjustments.

[Runestar]

I am not sure what I am being charged for either.

Necropolitan pretty much grants you all the undead traits you ever need without LA. I can live without the minor boost to my mental stats, the useless fear aura and the just as useless touch attack (considering what they are costing me).

Go elf (since the con penalty will be moot), take initiate of the faerie mysteries and maybe age to venerable (might as well lower it all the way to 1).

I think the better question is - what sort of benefits do you think is worth giving up a spellcaster lv for? You obviously can't just get them for free. Though I think the gp cost alone may suffice, if we treat the lich's abilities as the equivalent of additional magic gear and price them accordingly.

On a side note, do you think the template is worthy of being +2cr? This is essentially suggesting that a lich spellcaster is supposed to be as challenging as 2 ordinary spellcasters?!? But in actual gameplay, I find that its myriad of immunities were rarely ever applicable, with the only real benefit being more hp and more annoying to take down permanently. Is part of the challenge supposed to include tracking down its phylactery or something?

Same for the dracolich template. Love the flavour, but it causes the dragon to lose 2/3 of its hp!!! Worth it?

[Prime32]

I think the better question is - what sort of benefits do you think is worth giving up a spellcaster lv for?

What are the weaknesses of spellcasters? Negating them would be my first answer, and the lich already attempts to do that with high hp and a lethal touch attack.

[Sunic_Flames]

It takes a stupidly high amount to justify even a single level. Losing 4... let's put it this way. Planar Shepherd would still arguably be worth it with -4. Anything less... not a chance.

The gold alone should cover it, as really you can get an auto revive for 4,150 gp. You just need Craft Contingent Spell, and a decent UMD. And you don't become a magnet for clerics, especially those designed to turn/rebuke, Disintegrate spells, and so forth.

I can't see it as being worth +2 CR either. So it takes less damage from attacks that as a spellcaster probably shouldn't affect it anyways, minor stat and skill gains, and comes back a lot to annoy you. Woo. And that assumes it's optimally used and not say... the Ghostlord. Anyone who has played RHoD will get the reference, no spoilers to those that don't.

[Brainpiercing]

Liches the way they are are perhaps good as Warlocks (although a warlock can't RAW become one, right? At least not by himself.)

A lich should definitely get Infernal Toughness.

Let's just add up and compare to other benefits:

Undead traits (LA +0)
Elemental Immunities (ca. +0.5)
Abilities (Fear and Paralysing Touch, of which Paralysing touch is actually quite useful with high Cha)( +0.5)
Stat and skill boosts, compared to races and other templates: (+1)
Phylactery: This one is partially neat, partially totally useless. The biggest drawback: That total badass Lich necromancer loses control over all his undead as soon as he is destroyed the first time. Well, perhaps another +0.5, although it should be +0 when you pay for it.

This adds up to +2.5 LA max. Manageable with buyback.

I'd like to suggest going the route I use for my PbP game, which isn't, however, totally balanced as such:
When a character gets a template you look at the new CR, add +1 to +3 depending on the general qualities of the template, and then gains the difference to his class levels in RHD.

For a lich, this would still suck majorly, since you would get three Undead HD, which are really worthless for anything but HP - but still better than +4LA.

[Sinfire Titan]

Liches are sub-par, as you say. But Dracoliches and Double-Liches are goddamn amazing to play, and very effective.

[Nunkuruji]

Be a Dread Necromancer?

[Prime32]

Liches are sub-par, as you say. But Dracoliches and Double-Liches are goddamn amazing to play, and very effective.

How in the name of Vecna do you become a "Double-Lich"?

[Sinfire Titan]

Be a Dread Necromancer?

DN works nicely, as does the Death Master (Dragon Compendium) and Dragonwrought Kobold (with Dracolich template as early as 1st level using the Player's Guide to Faerun).

Liches are sub-par, as you say. But Dracoliches and Double-Liches are goddamn amazing to play, and very effective.

How in the name of Vecna do you become a "Double-Lich"?

Dragonwrought Kobold Death Master. Apply the Dracolich Template at 16th, buy it off at ECL 20th, get the capstone class feature of the Death Master (which force-applies the Lich template, even if you all ready were one, and the benefits stack). Double-Lich. Triple Lich is possible in either Epic or Gestalt via Dread Necromancer on your other half or Walker in the Waste post-Epic.

[Straw_Man]

Interesting, Double dip Lich, sounds tasty 

  Now, the problem I had the Lich was not so much that you could be turned, but who wants to live forever right?, but that it didn't serve to increase spellcasting. High level casters can't come up with a better solution than something that makes you suck at magic?!

  The MM Lich is a GM tool, make a spellcaster tough enough to take a party in a fight. Using Necropolitan as a template, sprinkle some stat mods, turn resistance, maybe a DR or attack for flavour - that would be a LA 1 or 2 template.

[Prime32]

Now, the problem I had the Lich was not so much that you could be turned, but who wants to live forever right?, but that it didn't serve to increase spellcasting. High level casters can't come up with a better solution than something that makes you suck at magic?!

OBJECTION!

The lich does not make you suck at magic - if anything, it makes you a little stronger due to the ability score adjustments. NPCs don't think like there is a DM making all the monsters they face into their equals.

[Sunic_Flames]

Course, 1 spell level > 1 spell DC...

I could see LA 2 as workable with buyback. I am after all playing an LA 2 race in a game with buyback, and it's working fine. Given about 3 and a third levels, all illusions at will with DCs in the mid to high 30s.

[Straw_Man]

Now, the problem I had the Lich was not so much that you could be turned, but who wants to live forever right?, but that it didn't serve to increase spellcasting. High level casters can't come up with a better solution than something that makes you suck at magic?!

OBJECTION!

The lich does not make you suck at magic - if anything, it makes you a little stronger due to the ability score adjustments. NPCs don't think like there is a DM making all the monsters they face into their equals.

DENIED!
A plus +1 to DC versus having all your spells delayed because of a +4 LA. You'd need to go epic before you get 9th levels spells, and spells my friend of appropriate level and variety are the true power of a spellcaster.

[Prime32]

Now, the problem I had the Lich was not so much that you could be turned, but who wants to live forever right?, but that it didn't serve to increase spellcasting. High level casters can't come up with a better solution than something that makes you suck at magic?!

OBJECTION!

The lich does not make you suck at magic - if anything, it makes you a little stronger due to the ability score adjustments. NPCs don't think like there is a DM making all the monsters they face into their equals.

DENIED!
A plus +1 to DC versus having all your spells delayed because of a +4 LA. You'd need to go epic before you get 9th levels spells, and spells my friend of appropriate level and variety are the true power of a spellcaster.

You misunderstand. NPCs don't have to worry about fitting into a party and will not face stronger monsters just becuase they are stronger, so it is in their best interests to become liches, as they get a power boost, and can keep researching magic at the same rate (and they live longer to research more)


If you suddenly gained 11th-level spellcasting in real life, and you could become a lich, would you? I doubt you will find any reason not to, beyond feeling weird or scaring people.

[Straw_Man]

  Perhaps you misunderstood me? I said the MM Lich, that is the D&D lich, is GM tool, so appropriate for NPC's for those reasons you mentioned. It really doesn't help a player get any better at magic beyond a +1 to spell DC's, which one would assume a player would persue. Assume.

  And myself, if I was worried as a 11th level wizard, I would get Contingency. Lich basically sets yourself as a giant target to most good aligned heroes. And what if my personality altered, would I be me any longer?

[PhaedrusXY]

I would totally become a lich IRL, if I could. Or a cyborg. I'd probably wait till I was old and decrepit, though. No sense throwing away my youth. 

[Sunic_Flames]

11th level spellcaster? Great, I now have Craft Contingent Spell, Revivify, and Heal. Not only am I immortal, I'm the fucking Messiah. Epic win.

How's that for a reason?

[Cyrocloud]

You don't have to epic to get 9th level spells with +4 LA as far as I know you can still buy off one of those levels before 20th (16th ECL) so you still could get 9th level spells with most spellcasters before epic.