the true arcane dilliante

[KellKheraptis]

erm.... I have some dumb questions. 


1. How does Ur-Priest benefit from a Dragonblood Pool?  In order to use the pool you have to be able to spontaneously cast 2nd level or higher spells, which gets one a bonus arcane spell slot for 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level.  How does that make Ur-Priest arcane instead of divine?

2. Sword of the Arcane Order lets you put wizard spells in your paladin spell slots.  Not arcane spells, but wizard spells.  It says nothing about changing the source of those spell slots from divine to arcane.

3. What sane DM would allow the interpretation of Master Spellthief to do what it does here instead of the much more obvious, "spellthief + one other arcane class = CL for that class, repeat for each arcane class you have?"

1.  Ur-Priest is simply the class selected.  By the time it's needed, the character easily fulfills the prereq's for the pool, and where it's appended is open ended.  This is the Algernon trick.

2.  Nor does it state that they are converted from arcane to divine, which is the default for Sor/Wiz spells.  As such, they are arcane, since there is no specific to trump the general.  Unless of course you want the Twice-Betrayer Slayer to start abusing Nightstick tech

3.  Said sane DM would be creating a house rule, as the RAW on the feat is pretty clear (and explained earlier in this thread).

And asdfjkl, having a CL and being able to benefit from spellcasting class increases is all the proof needed to show a warlock most definitely would benefit from this build's CL with Master Spellthief.  Furthermore, they most definitely are considered spellcasters, as if you'll recall, they too are afforded access to the Epic Spellcasting feat if they have 24 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes).  That says it all right there, as far as I'm concerned.  You don't get the nuclear weapons of D&D casters by being a non-caster, plain and simple.

[Kuroimaken]

Sane DMs are the stuff of freakin' legend.

[bearsarebrown]

3. What sane DM would allow the interpretation of Master Spellthief to do what it does here instead of the much more obvious, "spellthief + one other arcane class = CL for that class, repeat for each arcane class you have?"

Because that's flat not what it says.

[asdfjkl]

And asdfjkl, having a CL and being able to benefit from spellcasting class increases is all the proof needed to show a warlock most definitely would benefit from this build's CL with Master Spellthief.  Furthermore, they most definitely are considered spellcasters, as if you'll recall, they too are afforded access to the Epic Spellcasting feat if they have 24 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes).  That says it all right there, as far as I'm concerned.  You don't get the nuclear weapons of D&D casters by being a non-caster, plain and simple.

I didn't know that warlocks got Epic Spellcasting.  Where does it say that exactly?

I only know of three sources where epic warlocks are discussed: Complete Arcane p189 where epic spellcasting isn't mentioned at all, the 3.5 FAQ where warlocks and epic spellcasting isn't mentioned at all (although it is mentioned that eldritch blast is a spell like ability and that the warlock is not a spellcasting class for normal purposes), and the web enhancement, where epic spellcasting is not on the list of bonus feats, nor is it mentioned.

Epic Spellcasting doesn't mention warlocks either, and neither does the 3.5 update or web enhancements that I found.

RAW: Warlock is not an arcane spellcaster.  It doesn't cast spells; it uses spell like abilities.  You aren't advancing warlock CL/invocations with your +1 arcane spellcaster classes, you are using a feat which is different and is stated as such in complete arcane.

I suppose if you houserule that warlocks are an arcane spellcasting class or even "Warlocks count as an arcane spellcasting class for purposes of the Master Spellthief feat" then it will work.

[KellKheraptis]

Ok, my previous wizard was miscalculated, as I was assuming Circle Magic was in play (different build for later).  The Twice Betrayer Slayer, Mk II :

Spellthief 1/Bard 1/Wizard 3/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Sublime Chord 1/Ultimate Magus 2-10

-Experience is a River or Item Familiar to soak up a major bloodline (any, though ideal is custom with 10 bonus feats)
-Spellthief variant granting bardic spellcasting progression from level 1.
-Caster level of 177 without gear or augmentation

Wizard = 17 + 4 + 3|24
SC      =   8 + 4 + 3|15=39

Bard = 46
Spellthief = 46
Wizard = 46
SC = 39

We're built for rocket tag with the [Evil] subtype, properly buffed to always go in a surprise round.  Initiative = pwnt.  Activate the bead as part of the action of casting a spell, fry the TBoS's defenses with an MDJ.  Swift action spell for the kill.  We've got Reserves of Strength and more free metamagic than we know what to do with, especially as a Shadowcraft Mage, so make it showy  Nothing says owned like a Twinned Empowered Maximized Crushing Fist of Spite to the face of the unkillable, as they turn into a grease spot between the dukes

EDIT : Oh, and just curious...does it say what we have to do with stolen spells from Spellthief?  Since I can think of a good home for all of the TBoS's spell slots before I fry him, since this build can cast metamagicked miracles out of cantrips

EDIT #2 : Quickly doing the math, the XP to buy bloodline levels is 3,000+6,000+12,000.  Incidentally, exactly the amount of XP gained by investing XP in an Item Familiar.  Coincidence?

[Anklebite]

nice work. I have spring break coming up, I'll see if I can top that.

[KellKheraptis]

nice work. I have spring break coming up, I'll see if I can top that.

Me too, with the Circle Magic version.  The beauty of this one, though, is that other than an early entry hack on the spell levels, he's pretty tame in terms of questionable rules (i.e. none, and totally RAW legal, PrC Pally free).

[Anklebite]

nice work. I have spring break coming up, I'll see if I can top that.

Me too, with the Circle Magic version.  The beauty of this one, though, is that other than an early entry hack on the spell levels, he's pretty tame in terms of questionable rules (i.e. none, and totally RAW legal, PrC Pally free).

yeah, although with the redone math, the original build has caster level 94 when buck-naked and unbuffed.  plus, with a few well placed practiced spellcaster feats, I can pump the CL even farther.  if I add in some drag mag, for the bardic casting spellthief, that's another +12 to the CL.

we are gonna have fun with this thing. 

[Hijax]

Sane DMs are the stuff of freakin' legend.

+1.

seriously, to take that mantle upon yourself, you have to be barking mad.

i'm not sure which to be more worried about, the fact that i'm apparently mad, or that i just lay down positive arguments regarding that fact.

[McPoyo]

Kell, the previous build you said was in error because it was using circle magic, I'm assuming that's where the +40 cl to each class was coming from? If not, where did that come from?

Edit:

i'm not sure which to be more worried about, the fact that i'm apparently mad, or that i just lay down positive arguments regarding that fact.

Do you wear a hat and/or enjoy tea parties?

[McPoyo]

Yes, double post, however: Kell, re-read the section in sublime chord talking about setting caster level, as Ankelbite pointed out in another thread. It makes all you caster levels for arcane spell casting classes equal to your sublime chord caster level. That increases that total CL quite a bit.

[KellKheraptis]

Yes, double post, however: Kell, re-read the section in sublime chord talking about setting caster level, as Ankelbite pointed out in another thread. It makes all you caster levels for arcane spell casting classes equal to your sublime chord caster level. That increases that total CL quite a bit.

Well, if it resets the Wizard level, but stays put there, it would be (3x37)+33, or 141.  I was keeping it tame, though RAW I believe you're right.  Thus, gearless it pwns the TBoS

Bard             1+4
Spellthief       1+4
Wizard          17+4
SC                8+21=33, resets bard, wizard, and spellthief base to 33

Is this how you're seeing it?

[Anklebite]

Yes, double post, however: Kell, re-read the section in sublime chord talking about setting caster level, as Ankelbite pointed out in another thread. It makes all you caster levels for arcane spell casting classes equal to your sublime chord caster level. That increases that total CL quite a bit.

Well, if it resets the Wizard level, but stays put there, it would be (3x37)+33, or 141.  I was keeping it tame, though RAW I believe you're right.  Thus, gearless it pwns the TBoS

Bard             1+4
Spellthief       1+4
Wizard          17+4
SC                8+21=33, resets bard, wizard, and spellthief base to 33

Is this how you're seeing it?

that's how the RAW works. 

the twice betrayer can kiss out collective behinds.  we can kill him in one round with MDJ+quickened wings of flurry(or any reserves of strength blast spell, really)

[McPoyo]

Yes, double post, however: Kell, re-read the section in sublime chord talking about setting caster level, as Ankelbite pointed out in another thread. It makes all you caster levels for arcane spell casting classes equal to your sublime chord caster level. That increases that total CL quite a bit.

Well, if it resets the Wizard level, but stays put there, it would be (3x37)+33, or 141.  I was keeping it tame, though RAW I believe you're right.  Thus, gearless it pwns the TBoS

Bard             1+4
Spellthief       1+4
Wizard          17+4
SC                8+21=33, resets bard, wizard, and spellthief base to 33

Is this how you're seeing it?

that's how the RAW works. 

the twice betrayer can kiss out collective behinds.  we can kill him in one round with MDJ+quickened wings of flurry(or any reserves of strength blast spell, really)

Yup, certainly looks like it, doesn't it?

[Anklebite]

Yes, double post, however: Kell, re-read the section in sublime chord talking about setting caster level, as Ankelbite pointed out in another thread. It makes all you caster levels for arcane spell casting classes equal to your sublime chord caster level. That increases that total CL quite a bit.

Well, if it resets the Wizard level, but stays put there, it would be (3x37)+33, or 141.  I was keeping it tame, though RAW I believe you're right.  Thus, gearless it pwns the TBoS

Bard             1+4
Spellthief       1+4
Wizard          17+4
SC                8+21=33, resets bard, wizard, and spellthief base to 33

Is this how you're seeing it?

that's how the RAW works. 

the twice betrayer can kiss out collective behinds.  we can kill him in one round with MDJ+quickened wings of flurry(or any reserves of strength blast spell, really)

Yup, certainly looks like it, doesn't it?

yeah, I can't image an unbuffed caster with no magic items (cause we MDJ'ed his ass) surviving 141d6 of anything.

[KellKheraptis]

Yes, double post, however: Kell, re-read the section in sublime chord talking about setting caster level, as Ankelbite pointed out in another thread. It makes all you caster levels for arcane spell casting classes equal to your sublime chord caster level. That increases that total CL quite a bit.

Well, if it resets the Wizard level, but stays put there, it would be (3x37)+33, or 141.  I was keeping it tame, though RAW I believe you're right.  Thus, gearless it pwns the TBoS

Bard             1+4
Spellthief       1+4
Wizard          17+4
SC                8+21=33, resets bard, wizard, and spellthief base to 33

Is this how you're seeing it?

that's how the RAW works. 

the twice betrayer can kiss out collective behinds.  we can kill him in one round with MDJ+quickened wings of flurry(or any reserves of strength blast spell, really)

Yup, certainly looks like it, doesn't it?

yeah, I can't image an unbuffed caster with no magic items (cause we MDJ'ed his ass) surviving 141d6 of anything.

Hell, as high of a CL as we have, we could be real dicks and throw the MDJ as a swift action and then power attack as a Solar and squish him like a bug   Really once the buffs go down, he's boned.  Wanna really be a dick?  Ready actions (using Shadow Miracles to emulate the Synchronicity shuffle if desired) to steal his spells as he attempts to rebuff.  Thanks for the refill, here's a consolation prize of 261d6 of Force in the eye!

[bearsarebrown]

Being Immune to HP damage.

[KellKheraptis]

Being Immune to HP damage.

Not unbuffed he's not

[Anklebite]

Being Immune to HP damage.

that went away when we disjunctioned him.  

[bearsarebrown]

That's true. You can cover most bases with Ex things but you just can't keep full coverage without spells. I'm just trying to figure something out that will stop it.