the true arcane dilliante

[KellKheraptis]

KELL. Can you afford 4 levels in your 110CL build?

Check out page 45 of Champions of Valor. Paladin variant that allows you to add arcane caster level to your paladin casting to determine the CL. This would effectively double the end CL of the build.

High One Warrior Wizard?  Or Sword of the Arcane Order feat?  Because I already have the latter.  It would take some monkeying to get HOWW, though if the base CK ended above say...70, it'd be worth it so long as it still got Ur and SC 9's.  As is now I get CL 110 with dual nines, and both Sor only and Wiz only (along with conceivably every divine spell).  But if I know the variant for sure I'll have a better idea if it can fit.

[bearsarebrown]

Mystic Fire Knight.

[KellKheraptis]

Mystic Fire Knight.

Which sub-level is it?  Like...what class feature does it replace, as it might be a different level on PrC Pally.

EDIT : Looks like it's the same level as Turn Undead, which PrC Pally gets at level 1, though I don't know if it'd be possible to append the Improved Spellcasting onto the end of it.  If it is, it's a whole new mess of figuring out the CL, since it'll figure into base now, plus Ur-Priest twice.  And we get a few freebie spell slots, woot!

[Anklebite]

Ok, his thesis spell needs to change, or SWS dropped for Mindbender or some other tasty 1 level dip, BUT!  There is something far more important here.  This is the first build to my knowledge that one-shots the Twice-Betrayer.  Like, no questions asked pounds it, as a single MDJ eradicates all AMF's and buffs/contingencies.  He'll have to come back from a clone/time shift and specifically ward against it, which is IMO still a victory (especially since I can do the same thing).  The mere fact that he's assured a win on round 1 though is sexy.

I never thought about using it that way....

holy hell! I discovered the lead in method to making a character to kill the twice-betrayer!
....


holy fuck kell, you just killed the twice betrayer!

[KellKheraptis]

Ok, his thesis spell needs to change, or SWS dropped for Mindbender or some other tasty 1 level dip, BUT!  There is something far more important here.  This is the first build to my knowledge that one-shots the Twice-Betrayer.  Like, no questions asked pounds it, as a single MDJ eradicates all AMF's and buffs/contingencies.  He'll have to come back from a clone/time shift and specifically ward against it, which is IMO still a victory (especially since I can do the same thing).  The mere fact that he's assured a win on round 1 though is sexy.

I never thought about using it that way....

holy hell! I discovered the lead in method to making a character to kill the twice-betrayer!
....


holy fuck kell, you just killed the twice betrayer!

Icing on the cake : Sub the level of PrC Pally for Silver Pyromancer, and you blithely ignore the challenge's one pitfall for our magechild of doom, which was no UA.  SP's get the Pally list, which is all we care about for SotAO.  CL is pinned at 110 for that version, but meh.  Also, if we do get Improved Spellcasting from Mystic Fire Knight sub level on the level a pally would get Turn Undead, our ending CL leaps to 224.

[Archmage Joda]

A couple questions about your build, Kell:

1) How are you meeting sanctified one's +5 BAB requirement?

2) How are you getting the turn undead requirement to enter PrC Paladin? All Ur-Priest gives is rebuke, and that's at the second level of it.

[KellKheraptis]

A couple questions about your build, Kell:

1) How are you meeting sanctified one's +5 BAB requirement?

2) How are you getting the turn undead requirement to enter PrC Paladin? All Ur-Priest gives is rebuke, and that's at the second level of it.

1) Ironically I hadn't posted it yet, but I'd noticed that discrepancy as well.

2) This will also be fixed by the solution to 1) above.

Sub out Sanctified One with a level of Cloistered Cleric.  You don't lose the domain granted powers or turn undead, only spellcasting from going Ur-Priest.  And you have at least 4 BAB fractionally, allowing entry into PrC Pally.  Alternately you can find another arcane class to jam in there, and pick up Silver Pyromancer in place of PrC Pally (such as if UA is frowned upon, though if they allow this beast, UA is the least of their worries).  SOoK was only there for Holy Fire, and there are enough ways to make damage whatever type you want, anyhow.  Hell, sell your soul to deal 1/2 vile, 1/2 unholy damage on every spell with the two feats you get

[KellKheraptis]

Ok, here's one centered around Wizard, that gets an even higher CL.

Build Skeleton
[spoiler]1)Spellthief 1-
2)Wizard 1-
3)Wizard 2-
4)Wizard 3-
5)UM 1-
6)UM 2-
7)Incantatrix 1-
8)Incantatrix 2-
9)Incantatrix 3-
10)Bard 1-
11)SC 1-
12)UM 3-
13)UM 4-
14)UM 5-
15)UM 6-
16)UM 7-
17)UM 8-
18)UM 9-
19)UM 10-
20)Incantatrix 4-[/spoiler]

CL Calc
[spoiler]Spellthief 4+8+40=52
Wizard 40+4+8=52
Bard 40+4+8=52
SC 40+4+8=52
--------------------------
208 * 1.5 = 312 (Consumptive Field)[/spoiler]

[bearsarebrown]

In Dragon Magazine there is a Spellthief variant which would give you I think 5 more CL.

Drop to 4 skill points, lose all sneak attack after level 1, lose trapsense, gain spell casting as a Bard, starting at level 1.

[KellKheraptis]

In Dragon Magazine there is a Spellthief variant which would give you I think 5 more CL.

Drop to 4 skill points, lose all sneak attack after level 1, lose trapsense, gain spell casting as a Bard, starting at level 1.

Forgot all about that, I have that one even   CL 317 and counting!

[Havok4]

Ok, here's one centered around Wizard, that gets an even higher CL.

Build Skeleton
[spoiler]1)Spellthief 1-
2)Wizard 1-
3)Wizard 2-
4)Wizard 3-
5)UM 1-
6)UM 2-
7)Incantatrix 1-
8)Incantatrix 2-
9)Incantatrix 3-
10)Bard 1-
11)SC 1-
12)UM 3-
13)UM 4-
14)UM 5-
15)UM 6-
16)UM 7-
17)UM 8-
18)UM 9-
19)UM 10-
20)Incantatrix 4-[/spoiler]

CL Calc
[spoiler]Spellthief 4+8+40=52
Wizard 40+4+8=52
Bard 40+4+8=52
SC 40+4+8=52
--------------------------
208 * 1.5 = 312 (Consumptive Field)[/spoiler]

You seem to have 12 levels of ultimate magus in this build.

[KellKheraptis]

No I don't, I pick 2 up and then come back to it later to pick up the other 8

[Widow]

Am I missing something, because the master spell theif feat lets you stack spell theif levels with other arcane spellcaster levels.  It is the actual class levels, not the caster level.

I had a similar build back in the day with the Ur-Priest and Nar Demonbinder.  Linking those two together required an algrebra equation since each increase in one also increased the other, back and forth.  The problem was each said levels in an other spell casting class, again not caster level.  Also I have seen it argued both ways if prestige classes that advance spell casting, but lack their own spell casting, add into the equation.

So even if you have 20 different 1 level casting classes each with a +4 caster level bonus, you still only have 20 class levels.

[Anklebite]

well, since the specific wording is
"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack
when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.",
you add together arcane spellcaster levels.  which we artificially pump up using various methods, most notably ultimate magus.  its arcane spellcaster levels (caster levels) after all, not "levels in arcane spellcasting classes" or "spells known levels"(hahaha I wish it was this one; talk about abusable!).

personally, I think it still works, but it is hard to find faults in ones children.  anyone have anything more conclusive than this?

[Kuroimaken]

I think I'm missing something here too. I realize that the addition of Ur and SC makes the calculations wonky because of their very nature, but exactly where does the loop begin?

I think I kind of see it... sort of.

Say we have

Wizard 1
Bard 1
Spellthief 1
Ur-Priest 1 (Mystic Theurge progresses it to 10)
SC 2 (MT progresses it to 10)
Mystic Theurge 10
X Arcane caster 1
So 17 class levels. Forget qualification for a sec here.

The caster levels for each would be...

SC 13 (adds an arcane spellcasting class by default; two base levels, +1 from another, then )
UP 19 (adds half all other arcane spellcasters; this includes SC, which notably increases its CL a lot thanks to MT)
Wizard 16 (Adding all those levels together)
Bard 16 (Same)
Spellthief 16 (Same)
X Arcane caster 16 (Same)

I think I see where the loop begins. Since each class would have to recalculate its CL after determining each class' CL, it gets to something like this:
SC: 29 + 16 (Wiz) + 16 (Bard) +16 (Spellthief) +16 (X) = 93 (SWEET MOTHER OF GOD!)
Wizard: 16 + 16 (Bard) + 16 (Spellthief) + 16 (X) + 29 (SC) = 93
Bard: 16 + 16 (Wiz) + 16 (Spellthief) +16 (X) + 29 (SC) = 93
X: 16 + 16 (Wiz) +16 (Spellthief) +16 (Bard) +29 (SC) = 93
Spellthief: Same as three above.
UP (Oh god...): 19 + 46.5 = 65.5

Problem is, when does the loop stop, exactly?

Also, I still don't figure how song of arcane power adds 36 to that specific build (haven't done the math in mine yet).

[Anklebite]

the fun thing with song of arcane power is that it increases CL, which you then add together. so it gives the same sort of hyperboost that the ultimate magus gives.  one could also have some fun with the +1 CL ioun stone.

[KellKheraptis]

Kuroimaken, for those last three levels, I nominate at least 1-2 of them for Tainted Scholar   You have unbeatable CL, why not have unbeatable DC's with NI spells/day? 

[Kuroimaken]

I'm unfamiliar with Tainted Scholar. Exactly why is it considered so awesome?

[Agita]

I'm unfamiliar with Tainted Scholar. Exactly why is it considered so awesome?

It replaces your casting stat with your Taint score and makes all your spells [evil], which means you accumulate more Taint just by casting them. I think you can see where this is going.

Also, three free levels on a build that abuses stacking of different classes? Dare I suggest a major bloodline?

[Negative Zero]

I'm unfamiliar with Tainted Scholar. Exactly why is it considered so awesome?

You use your taint score instead of Int/Cha for spellcasting. If you're undead, you don't suffer negative effects of taint, so you can go ahead and get an arbitrarily high taint score without worrying about it.