Tier system for PrCs?

[bogsnes]

We have it for base classes, so why not for PrCs...
I know it is much harder to rate, but at least the top two or three tiers could be possible...

Which should be in Tier 1?

ScM, Incantatrix and Planar Shepherd I think should be in, but what more?

IoSV?

[ninjarabbit]

Ur-priest, abjurant champion, frenzied berserker, shadowcraft mage, fist of raziel

[bogsnes]

fist of raziel? source?
frenzied berzerker looks nice, but it is nowhere near the power of tier 1 prcs, maybe about tier 3

Sublime Chord is probably tier two

Ur-priest is tier 1 material, and maybe AC too, though I am a little bit unsure, probably is, though...

[Prime32]

Fist of Raziel is from Book of Exalted Deeds

The main thing about the frenzied berserker is that he cannot die while frenzying, and his presence changes party tactics. Plus, his damage output can get so high that it can rival the power of save-or-dies.

[bogsnes]

Yeah, that means a REALLY strong tier 3, probably, as you can't become tier 2 without having the power of sorcerers or better, but with limited versatility...

What do they do when a contigencied time stop suddenly happens, followed by imprisonment or something...

Is fist of raziel really that good? loses one CL, and gains... some smites per day?

[ReaderOfPosts]

Some of these certainly depend whether your counting them as passable dips for full investment class. Similarly, is a prestige class tier 1 if it is a no brainer to take, or if it's stand alone good (for example, master specialist, archmage, or paragnostic apostle are good to add to builds because they're something for nothing, while better prestige classes give more powerful abilities then them, but at a greater cost (like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil).

That said, my EPH rankings
Tier 1: Thrallherd (maybe two, since it's not that much better than the leadership feat)
Tier 2: Slayer
Tier 3: Warmind, Cerebremancer (and really most "multi-class" prestige classes) Elocater for select builds, Uncarnate
Tier 4: Psionic Fist, Pyrokineticist
Tier 6: Metamind

[ErhnamDJ]

I like Cerebremancer a lot. Probably more than most, I'd imagine, but...

It opens lots of options wizards don't normally have, at a cost I find acceptable, though it is certainly debatable.

I wouldn't put it at tier 3. What is the psion alone?

[Tshern]

It's really quite useless to rate prestige classes like this, because they depend too much on the entry and several PrCs have multiple viable ways of entering...

[RobbyPants]

Well, I guess we have to figure out how we rank a PrC tier wise.  I mean, would any full-casting PrC be tier one?  If it improves a tier one's casting and gives extra goodies, I can see the argument.  Are we looking at just the PrC itself, and not what it improves?  Depending on how we answer these will have a lot to do with how we rank PrCs.

I can see rating the Abjurant Champion as a tier one in that it's full casting and grants some nice martial goodies (full BAB and d10 hit dice), as well as the other class abilities.  It's rediculously easy to qualify for, other than having to blow a feat on Combat Casting.

I agree that I don't think I'd put Frenzied Berzerker as a tier one.  It can do one thing really well, but that's about it, so by definition, I think that puts it in tier three.  I agree that it's a really high tier three.

Also, certain other PrCs can bump any given PrC up a tier or so.  Take Mystic Theruge.  I'm not sure where to rank it by itself, but if you start using Ur Priest and similar tweaks, you can easily bump it up a tier or so.

Out of curiousity, how would you rank some of the Complete Divine PrCs like Radient Fist of Pelor, Church Inquisitor, and Sacred Exorsist?  Again, I think this depends on our tier criteria.  If we look at it seriously beefing an already tier one class, than that makes these PrCs tier one themselves.  If we compare it to existing PrCs independatnly of the base classes, I think I'm leaning more toward tier two.

[woodenbandman]

Relative tier system: For caster advancing classes/physical classes, put something about how it will improve the build, and by how much. For instance, Planar Shepherd is a -1 or even -2 tiers class, making tier 0 optimization possible. A frenzied berserker drastically improves a barbarian's damage potential, so it'd probably be a -1 tier class too, even with the frenzy's bad stuff. It'd probably have to go level by level for some to show the goodness of dips, like Mindbender which rocks for 1 level, and gives maybe -.5 tiers, but after 1 level it's back to +.1 and gets only worse from there. Negatives are good, by the way.

Some -1 or more tier classes:

Planar Shepherd
Telflammer Shadowlord
Frenzied Berserker
Incantatrix
Spelldancer
Rainbow Servant(warmage only)
Contemplative
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Master of Nine
Anima Mage
Shadowcraft Mage
Malconvoker

[CannibalSmith]

Relative tier system sounds good, though it works only for when you have only one base class. Gishes, for example, cannot be fit into any tier system.

IMO:

Tier +0:
Arcane Hierophant
Master of the Sevenfold Veil
Atavist

Tier +2:
Mystic Theurge
Dragon Disciple

[woodenbandman]

If by Master of the Sevenfold Veil you mean Initiate, I'm going to disagree and say that that class gives -1 tier. I've heard it gives immunity to antimagic field.

EDIT: further, the arcane hierophant gets 2 sets of ninth level spells as well as wildshape as a 13th level druid and gets familiar companion, which is cool as hell. Just throw a few Mystic Theurge levels on after and you're easily looking at a build more powerful than a wizard or a druid just from sheer versatility (this assumes of course that we're obeying practical optimization and that a wizard cannot get cleric spellcasting just by transforming himself into a solar, because if that happens classes are irrelevant anyway). I'd say that an arcane hierophant may be a tier -1 class, provided that both sets of spellcasting are completed to ninth level spells.

I think that a gish can be fit into a tier system as it is actually a bit of a downgrade from a full caster, though not much. A build such as Neraph Focused Conjuror3/Master Specialist2/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword1 would be about a tier +.5 since it delays spellcasting by 1 level. And it gets BAB of +17, which is nice.

[CannibalSmith]

What? How?

[woodenbandman]

I've just heard, I don't know how. I could be wrong.

[juton]

Having a tier system works for base classes, a Wizard with levels in Incantrix still does all the Wizardly things he could normally do. Most characters will have two or more prestige classes before level 20, it becomes less about how one prestige class works and more about how they work together as a whole.

I think it would probably be more productive to create a metric to assign completed characters to a Tier ranking. Barring that relative ratings will probably work the best, if you absolutely had to rank the prestige classes.

Becoming a Dweomer Keeper is good, but it's a lot better if you're a Cleric and not a Paladin so you can't assign an absolute Tier to that prestige class.

[Endarire]

The aforementioned neraph qualifies for Spellsword by blowing feats on all armor and proficiencies, perhaps even tower shield proficiency.  Another EK level is more cost-effective.

Remember that outsiders gain proficiency with all martial weapons, thereby qualifying for Eldritch Knight.

[woodenbandman]

I forgot that you needed armor proficiencies for spellsword. Yeah, fuck that, one more EK level.

[PhaedrusXY]

What? How?

The veils act as a skin-tight Prismatic Wall. Prismatic Wall is immune to AMF, and blocks its Line of Effect (LoE). So the veils would keep your buffs and magic items active while inside an AMF, and you could even cast spells. They wouldn't be able to take effect inside the AMF area itself, but they could affect you or creatures outside of it (because the Rules Compendium said that AMF does not block LoE).

[Kuroimaken]

What? How?

The veils act as a skin-tight Prismatic Wall. Prismatic Wall is immune to AMF, and blocks its Line of Effect (LoE). So the veils would keep your buffs and magic items active while inside an AMF, and you could even cast spells. They wouldn't be able to take effect inside the AMF area itself, but they could affect you or creatures outside of it (because the Rules Compendium said that AMF does not block LoE).

So THAT'S why IotSV is considered so good! I can't believe I totally missed that...

Remember that outsiders gain proficiency with all martial weapons, thereby qualifying for Eldritch Knight.

Not a whole lot of LA+0 outsiders out there, sadly, but I see your point.

Mystic Theurge, for me, would be one of the weirdest PrCs to classify into a tier. Another one might be Unseen Seer. Sure it gives you lots of goodies (medium BAB, more skill points, sneak attack, advanced learning) but the prereqs are such a pain to work with without delaying either spellcasting or entering the class...

[Bozwevial]

Sublime Chord is probably tier two

Why? It grants 9th level spells in 10 levels.