Revised classed npc crs?

[Runestar]

I am not sure where this should go, but decided to post this here instead of at the house-rules forum, since I am primarily looking for feedback, rather than giving it.

I am sure that by now, it is no small secret that npc crs are ridiculously inaccurate, especially past 3-4th lv. No way is a lv20 fighter worth anywhere near cr20 (at that lv, you are looking at tarrasques and black wyrm dragons). I remember my astonishment when my 5th lv party took down thrull (a supposed cr11 foe) readily enough in the sons of gruumsh module. Then I reviewed his stats and to my bemusement, found them to be inferior to the next best alternative - the hill giant (MM, cr7). 

There are also other hints here and there. For instance, MM5 has this hobgoblin which casts as a 9th lv wizard, and is just cr8. A gnoll cleric2 is cr2 (by wotc's own admission), so a human cleric2 (which is statistically weaker) can't be cr2....

So has anyone tried coming up with new (and hopefully, more accurate) guidelines for determining classed npc crs? Or any of your own experiences to share?

[Prime32]

Doesn't Pathfinder use CR = level -2?

[Sunic_Flames]

CRs are borked when it comes to class levels.

Via advancement rules you can end up with a full caster and high stats or a better than full caster and high stats for a low CR.

As for plain humanoids... a static reduction won't cut it.

Basically NPC beatsticks are just a lot of free XP and gold because they don't get enough gear. Lowering their CR would likely result in them getting even less gear, thereby becoming less of a threat which means lower CR... See where this is going?

The NPC casters are a lot better off because they need less gear, have spells to sub for gear, and so forth.

It practically has to be ad hocced. But none of them are worth their full CR as to do that they'd have to have PC gear. Which means moment they die and get looted the game breaks.

[Runestar]

Lowering their CR would likely result in them getting even less gear, thereby becoming less of a threat which means lower CR... See where this is going?

You have a point there. If I said that a cr20 fighter (with cr20 npc gear) was a cr14, that would in turn reduce his wealth to that of a cr14 npc. Which would in turn lower his cr (because his stats worsen), and he gets even less gear as a result. 

But there has to be a cut-off point somewhere, where you eventually reach some sort of equilibrium. Say you keep reducing the figures until you discover that a fighter20 with gear appropriate for a cr12 npc is a fair cr12 foe?

Whoa...this seems to be getting more tedious and tricky than I had originally envisioned... :-[

[Arquebuz]

Ad Hoc is often the best way to go. As an alternative I often use the "given" CR for an npc as an initial guide, but the system is way too borked to hope for mathmatical precision.  Especially if your PCs are even remotely optimized.  Try starting at -2 and then using the Tier system to knock off or add more, using tier 4 as the baseline.  As in, "these PCs are a tier 3 average party, so I'll knock the CR of this npc down another notch, for a total of -3 from the recommended CR".  Works pretty well for "store-bought" NPCs. 

[Sunic_Flames]

Any sort of store bought NPC is likely to be another few points off right there, simply due to horrific choices such as Fighter 3, and Toughness. Or low Con scores which means they get insta gibbed.

[Orion]

It practically has to be ad hocced. But none of them are worth their full CR as to do that they'd have to have PC gear. Which means moment they die and get looted the game breaks.

It's a pretty piss-poor solution, but can you hand-wave the encounters such that a bunch of your NPCs have "just" received buffs from spells or scrolls? That way, you boost their actual CR and you don't just leave a bunch of goodies for the PCs. As I say, I know it's a pretty ad-hoc solution, but it might work out in the short-term. Every warrior-type gets Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance, for example. They all have Resistance or a few points of Stone Skin left. Stuff like that.

Just a thought.

[Achiever_Type]

A like CR challenge for character level X party of Y members is a group of Y members at Character level X.  So, simply put,  X*1/y = their CR on an individual basis.  Put them together, get a EL of the party's standard level.  If I put even a strongly optimized NPC against a party, they'll slaughter him.  On his own, he's just 1/y their power.

If you must make them fight 1 powerful dude, ad hoc is the best way to go.  Experience goes a long way in figuring out what level of adversary is suitable for your party. As an example, a group of 2nd level, with 4 members (psion, factotum, sorcerer, Draegloth) was able to match up with a 5th level warblade.  The fight ended with nearly a tpk, but they got the best of the warblade in the end.  Yet they were also, at level 5, able to fight four level 5 class-leveled enemies and prevail with little difficulty.  Had I given them the treasure from that encounter and xp as the rules are laid out, it would have been a idiotic move on my part.  

In short, making an iron clad rule on this would be difficult.  Use common sense and slap on appropriate rewards.

[Runestar]

Some general guidelines still would be nice. It is easy to say "ad-hoc it", but the problem here is estimating it to the satisfaction of the gaming group. It doesn't have to be 100% spot-on, but it can't be too far off either, nor do I want to look back and say "Whoops, that cr11 BBEG ended up being way too weak to properly challenge my party". 

Or at least, could you all share some experiences of your classed npcs and whether they were worth their cr or not?

[Arquebuz]

The best way to have CR balanced npcs is really just to optimize the hell out of them.  Lots of work, but often worth it.  I've also found that a few ToB levels combined with the right environment (can't stress that second part enough) does a lot for melee npcs. 
I recently had my group face off against a vampire monk/swordsage who had some back-up from a well-concealed/covered necromancer.  Fight took place on bridge over a giant underground lake of bones.  Obviously it's easier to balance CR if the baddies know your party is coming.
Other recent favorite: the Frost Giant Jarl duskblade with cold-specialist druid cohort.  My players wept like children, and the exp was well-earned.

[Sunic_Flames]

The best way to have CR balanced npcs is really just to optimize the hell out of them.  Lots of work, but often worth it.  I've also found that a few ToB levels combined with the right environment (can't stress that second part enough) does a lot for melee npcs. 
I recently had my group face off against a vampire monk/swordsage who had some back-up from a well-concealed/covered necromancer.  Fight took place on bridge over a giant underground lake of bones.  Obviously it's easier to balance CR if the baddies know your party is coming.
Other recent favorite: the Frost Giant Jarl duskblade with cold-specialist druid cohort.  My players wept like children, and the exp was well-earned.

The only problem is making mundane high level anything worth a damn means giving them some super one trick. Which means if they get off their trick someone dies, then they die easily. If they don't get off their trick that's some easy XP and loot there. A good example would be a Swift Hunter with immunity ignoring effects and custom Raptor Arrows.

[Arquebuz]

Another way to look at the issue:
The solution might not be the application of a particular algorithm.  Instead we can get into some rule 0 kind of territory.  If you need the PCs to be a little bit hampered or the NPCs to get a bit of a non-gear related boost, consider introducing atmospheric elements that the NPCs are accustomed to that the PCs aren't. Weather, temperature, noise, etc. Are simple ways to accomplish this.  It's tough to get out of the gear/CR loop.  Often the solution can involve gear that isn't all that useful outside of the encounter environment.  I know this kind of fix isn't really going to work for urban adventuring and the like, but it helps for homebrew adventures that take place in unusual places.

[veekie]

You could, I suppose, give them permanent buff spells as effective wealth, that does not become PC wealth since buffs usually go poof when they die.

[TheChrisWaits]

You could, I suppose, give them permanent buff spells as effective wealth, that does not become PC wealth since buffs usually go poof when they die.

The book Four-color to Fantasy has some good insight on replacing gear with extra powers and whatnot, and I'd recommend it for any DM. EN Publishing has the PDF for a dollar, I believe.

[Bozwevial]

Another way to look at the issue:
The solution might not be the application of a particular algorithm.  Instead we can get into some rule 0 kind of territory.  If you need the PCs to be a little bit hampered or the NPCs to get a bit of a non-gear related boost, consider introducing atmospheric elements that the NPCs are accustomed to that the PCs aren't. Weather, temperature, noise, etc. Are simple ways to accomplish this.  It's tough to get out of the gear/CR loop.  Often the solution can involve gear that isn't all that useful outside of the encounter environment.  I know this kind of fix isn't really going to work for urban adventuring and the like, but it helps for homebrew adventures that take place in unusual places.

Seconded. Half of an interesting (and challenging) fight isn't just the opponent, but the battleground, especially if the opponent has had time to prepare/is on his home turf.

[woodenbandman]

I had a party of 6 level 7 characters, including a warlock, a fighter, a ninja, an incarnate (which surprised the hell out of me by getting such a huge AC at that level), a beatstick-sage and a DMPC healbot defeat my teleporting duskblade and dual wielding chaintripper, each level 13. It seemed that it would be the impossible challenge, but I had fortunately though ahead and given them contingent planeshifts, fortunately for me. It really is a stumbling process.