Author Topic: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.  (Read 36373 times)

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Kaelik

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CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« on: March 19, 2011, 01:43:52 PM »
There is a lot of talk about how Wizards break the game (and they do) and about how fighters are weak (and they are) but it's become overblown a great deal. The prevalence of knowledge about tricks like Shadow Miracles, or Persisting stuff through method that is not a higher level spell slot or using calling magic at all and breaking the game has filtered backwards, and combined with a habit of playing monsters short to make the bad PCs feel good has resulted in a mentality of

Remember that this advice was also written with the blaster-mage mentality, where a moderately-challenging fight might require 3-4 spells. With a CO-mentality, you can reasonably beat pretty much any expected encounter with 1 spell, which is far fewer than your maximum by 6th level, not to mention 9th.

The fact that multiple encounters can potentially be bypassed by the same spell (overland flight vs. non-flying, non-ranged threats) only amplifies this.

Unless you have Arcane Thesis and Easy Metamagic somewhere on your sheet, you are not going to be beating CR appropriate encounters with a single spell.

So the purpose of this thread, I'm going to try to create a CR encounter arena, in which people can make parties, either as four people, or one person playing four characters, and then I will run them through a set of four CR appropriate encounters, as per the encounter guidelines, that are also at least somehow a likely set of four encounters to hit in the same day, for whatever reason. Each encounter will start with me setting the scene, as PCs are likely to do something, or trying to do something, and they will then face encounters as they run into them.

Basically, you can make your PCs, and try to beat things with one spell (or however else you want, IE team fighters are totally not underpowered can try to prove it with fighters if they want).

Now, obviously, the purpose of this is not to break the game, we all know ways to break the game, but this is to show that an actual party without the super gamebreakers can beat the party.

That said: Here is a short ban list, and if you want to use something on the same line, think about if I'm going to allow it:

1) Incantatrix
2) Tainted Scholar
3) DMM Persist
4) DweomerKeeper
5) Planar Shepard
6) Anything involving calling magic at all, or Dread Warrior.
7) Anything that involves applying a bunch of meta feats to a spell that would normally increase it several levels over your ability to cast, but is instead reduced by a lot of reductions from some combination of Arcane Thesis/Easy Meta/Practical Meta/Class abilities ect.
8) Shadowcraft Mage
9) Ur Priest/Sublime Chord anything, yes there are non game breaking Ur Priest/Sublime Chord builds. Most of them make more sense as Clerics/Sorcerers. Save me the hassle and use the Cleric/Sorcerer.
10) Anything involving the existence of a Thought Bottle.
11) Any claim to having more than WBL through any means at all.
12) Special mention for Faerie Mysteries Innate. Yes, anything that increases your HP by 5-15 HP per level, and increases your casting modifier by 1-2, and gives your more ability points to distribute to other stats is absurd. Also, Kobolds can not be Epic or Loredrakes, or ect.
13) No Leadership, and I might punch you in the face through the internet if you try to tell me what absurd creatures you have Dominated or Animated before this starts. If you want to animate something, it better be readily accessible, and usually travel in packs with a lower EL than your level, so no, your level 5 character cannot have a Fire Giant Skeleton.
14) Dragon Magazine
15) Hulking Hurler


For level, try to build parties that would make sense at every level, because where possible, I'd like to run them against several, but I will take requests for specific levels, sometimes, depending on time, and no, your level 17 9th level spells party is not as interesting to me as a level 5-13 party. And no, your level 1 Fiery Burst for 3d6 damage is also not something that interests me too much either.

32 PB for everyone, no LA buyoff or bloodlines, or anything else that fuzzes the level of your characters, and use average HP.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 10:30:04 AM by Kaelik »

Amechra

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 01:56:26 PM »
I might want to run a lvl 6 party.

Probably a:
Binder/Something (probably our good friend Anima Mage, entered through Precocious Apprentice and the like)
Idiot Crusader of some description
Song of the White Raven/Dragonfire Inspiration/Words of Creation/Songs of the Heart Bard
Beguiler/Mindbender with Mindsight, and some way to pass on the information.

Question: Are bloodlines allowed, and if so, what interpretation should be used?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2011, 02:27:09 PM »
I'll swing a check on Words of Creation to see if it's another game breaker, as for bloodlines:

Some interpretation that doesn't give you something for nothing, so no, you won't want them.

Eviltedzies

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2011, 04:01:14 PM »
The Buffer: Domain Wizard (Transmutation) 5/War Weaver 5

The BSF: Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem & Pounce Variants)/Fighter 6 (Dungeon Crasher Varient)/Champion of Gwynharwyf 2

The Skill Junkie: Factotum 10

The Healer/Battlefield Controller: Druid 10

Barring obvious cheese I think that would be a fairly well rounded party setup.
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Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2011, 04:52:14 PM »
Unless I'm missing something, Words of Creation is just a free extend spell on some spells, and increase of Bardic Music. I assume Songs of the Heart is same deal, where is that?

Nachofan99

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 05:45:08 PM »
I know we have normal WBL, but what about Point Buy/Other stat generating methods? 

I assume there are no other restrictions besides what was already listed and, of course, theoretical optimization of anything potential infinite or nigh large.  But you missed something as "obvious" and Core as Leadership feat, which I assume is tacitly banned because it's inherently ridiculous.  What I'm getting at is, I can assume all I want what I think is banned/not allowed, but I can't possibly know every exception.  Dragonwrought Kobold seems like it's approaching #11 but isn't called out.


Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2011, 06:29:18 PM »
I know we have normal WBL, but what about Point Buy/Other stat generating methods?

Yeah, good point, let's go with 32 PB.

I assume there are no other restrictions besides what was already listed and, of course, theoretical optimization of anything potential infinite or nigh large.  But you missed something as "obvious" and Core as Leadership feat, which I assume is tacitly banned because it's inherently ridiculous.  What I'm getting at is, I can assume all I want what I think is banned/not allowed, but I can't possibly know every exception.  Dragonwrought Kobold seems like it's approaching #11 but isn't called out.

If it's used for +3 to mental stats, it's not a problem. If it's used for absurdities involving being Epic or having the Dragontype and Loredraking, it is. Definitely Leadership not okay.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 06:31:54 PM by Kaelik »

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2011, 06:34:17 PM »
This is kind of futile unless you agree not to screw around with badly rated CRs.

Going up against, say, a cloaker lord or sharn with additional casting levels is going to be death regardless of whether WotC thought it was "CR appropriate"
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2011, 06:35:14 PM »
Definitely Leadership not okay.
What if we solo using our thralls minions as our other characters? Or for mounts and such?
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Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2011, 06:45:59 PM »
This is kind of futile unless you agree not to screw around with badly rated CRs.

Going up against, say, a cloaker lord or sharn with additional casting levels is going to be death regardless of whether WotC thought it was "CR appropriate"

Yes, let's just go over all the monsters that are too powerful for their CR (IE, Wizards cannot solo them with a single spell) Anything with the Demon or Devil Subtype. Anything with the angel or Archon subtype. Anything with the Dragon type. Anything with the Outsider type actually. Aboleths, Mindflayers, Beholders. Oh wait, let's just ban the entire type. Ect.

Look, I'm going to let everyone know what the encounters are, it's not like people are going to have to take my word on this. If they think that "An Ice Devil" is too overpowered for a level 12 party to face, that's their problem, because it turns out that it's totally expected that level 12 parties will have to fight Gelugons.

Definitely Leadership not okay.
What if we solo using our thralls minions as our other characters? Or for mounts and such?

You can get mounts through other means, You can if you want take Leadership and then bring in a Cohort, but they will count towards Party level for the purposes of CR, so unless you really have a use for followers, it is unlikely to prove too useful, and you would probably be better off just making a party yourself.

My primary concerns are: Minions bog down play a lotttttt. Leadership is an absurdly broken best feat ever feat that if allowed is pretty much mandatory to everyone.

Prime32

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2011, 06:48:32 PM »
This is kind of futile unless you agree not to screw around with badly rated CRs.

Going up against, say, a cloaker lord or sharn with additional casting levels is going to be death regardless of whether WotC thought it was "CR appropriate"

Yes, let's just go over all the monsters that are too powerful for their CR (IE, Wizards cannot solo them with a single spell) Anything with the Demon or Devil Subtype. Anything with the angel or Archon subtype. Anything with the Dragon type. Anything with the Outsider type actually. Aboleths, Mindflayers, Beholders. Oh wait, let's just ban the entire type. Ect.

Look, I'm going to let everyone know what the encounters are, it's not like people are going to have to take my word on this. If they think that "An Ice Devil" is too overpowered for a level 12 party to face, that's their problem, because it turns out that it's totally expected that level 12 parties will have to fight Gelugons.
The problem with the cloaker lord is that it's a CR7 creature that casts as a 9th-level wizard. And has 9d8 HD. And a bunch of crazy powers. According to WotC this is equal in power to a human 7th-level wizard.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 06:52:35 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
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Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2011, 06:54:17 PM »
This is kind of futile unless you agree not to screw around with badly rated CRs.

Going up against, say, a cloaker lord or sharn with additional casting levels is going to be death regardless of whether WotC thought it was "CR appropriate"

Yes, let's just go over all the monsters that are too powerful for their CR (IE, Wizards cannot solo them with a single spell) Anything with the Demon or Devil Subtype. Anything with the angel or Archon subtype. Anything with the Dragon type. Anything with the Outsider type actually. Aboleths, Mindflayers, Beholders. Oh wait, let's just ban the entire type. Ect.

Look, I'm going to let everyone know what the encounters are, it's not like people are going to have to take my word on this. If they think that "An Ice Devil" is too overpowered for a level 12 party to face, that's their problem, because it turns out that it's totally expected that level 12 parties will have to fight Gelugons.
The problem is that cloaker lords cast as wizards of a higher level than their CR. And also have more HD than their CR.

So do Planetar, except Cleric casting. Still CR monsters. Yes, there are abnormalities that exist, between CR NPCs and Players of level X, but those are usually accounted for by WBL differences between Monsters and NPCs vs PCs. Like I said, I will be presenting the encounters during and/or after the battles, so that anyone can see what the encounter consisted of, and whether they think that's appropriately representative or not.

Amechra

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2011, 07:49:47 PM »
So we're going with the interpretation that you take them as actual levels, but those levels advance each class?
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

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Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2011, 07:58:53 PM »
Since you are trying to make me miserable, I looked at bloodline, and as I suspected, there is literally nothing there other than a generic bonuses that serve only the purpose of giving something for nothing.

So no, you can't have any bloodlines of anything, and I'm going to use an Aboleth on you as punishment for making me read that pile of crap ruleset that possess no useful qualities whatsoever.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2011, 08:02:40 PM »
So no, you can't have any bloodlines of anything, and I'm going to use an Aboleth on you as punishment for making me read that pile of crap ruleset that possess no useful qualities whatsoever.
Bring on the tentacles.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Amechra

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2011, 08:10:53 PM »
Alright, so I'm going to need to adjust the party up a bit...

Probably going to swap out the Beguiler for a War Weaver of some description...

Do I know beforehand the location, environs, and whether or not the Aboleth has any Skum?

And is the win condition on my part any single character surviving, who is able to resurrect the other characters?

This should be fun.
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Amechra

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 08:21:31 PM »
Sorry, but what is your stance on Insane Defiance (character takes 1 wisdom damage, and then redirects a targetted mind-affecting ability to anyone who could be affected by that ability)?

I put it on most of my characters (if it fits), and offers decent protection vs. the Enslave ability...
[spoiler]Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

On a strange note, would anyone be put out if we had a post about people or events we can spare a thought for, or if its within their creed, a prayer for? Just a random thought, but ... hells I wouldn't have known about either Archangels daughter or Saeomons niece if I didn't happen to be on these threads.
Sounds fine to me.
probably over on "Off-topic".
might want to put a little disclaimer in the first post.

This is the Min/Max board. We should be able to figure out a way to optimize the POWER OF PRAYER(TM) that doesn't involve "Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu".
[/spoiler]

My final project for my film independent study course. It could do with a watching and critiquing

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 08:24:26 PM »
Well, since your party is level 6, the Aboleth is only one fourth of the encounters you will be facing that day, though you can be sure that at least one of them will be EL 5, out of fairness.

Basically, the plan would be that you give me four character sheets, then I come up with my four encounters (or pick them from a really big list and flavor to work together as a single coherent likely day's events) then tell you what situation you are in at the beginning, and you can prepare spells (and in your case, Bind Vestiges) and then you can progress from there based on what you know.

Whether the Aboleth has any skum or not would be something that you figure out based on that.

EDIT: Where is insane defiance from?

Also, win condition (if a standard party of four) is surviving all four encounters with all four party members at the end of the day. If you do that with 3 party members dying every fight, that's still fine. Though, I reserve the right to declare you a loser if your strategy is clearly not repeatable each day, or if it would never result in you leveling up at all, because you expend more XP than you gain.

Remember, solo options are fine too, and will face easier fights because of that.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 09:08:39 PM by Kaelik »

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2011, 08:57:50 PM »
This will be a PbP here on BG, or via PMs?
I'm assuming this is for decent optimizers who want to test their builds/CO skills, right?
Fights only, or can it be any encounter?
DnD 3.5 only?
Party must be "generic" (Meleer, Skillmonkey, Caster, Support) or can be anything (4 Fighters or 4 Wizards)?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 09:13:20 PM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

Kaelik

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Re: CR Appropriate encounters Arena.
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2011, 09:04:52 PM »
Hopefully BG, if I get my requested forum whenever Prime next gets on. Otherwise, work something out.
Yes/No. It can certainly be used for that, but a large part of it is to show people how level appropriate encounters are actually not that easy.
It could be "Any encounter" but in practice it will be fights, since at most levels "A trench" is very CR inappropriate, and "A door" is usually only part of something like "Get to X quickly, without alerting Z."

Yes 3.5 only.
Anything if you want. Since part of the point is to prove that a party of four Wizards is actually still challenged by CR appropriate encounters, that's good.