Author Topic: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?  (Read 7703 times)

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InnaBinder

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2010, 01:45:21 AM »
What is the highest level you play to? Because the only thing DDO does it change it from ML 15 to ML 11.
I don't play DDO. I've heard Fortification is very popular because of the large number of critical hits when fighting lots of monsters over time (grinding). Meaning everyone has it or they die.

I have never seen in my group's games or heard of in any one else's games or heard of someone I personally know or someone I know from the internet consider using Fortification as their "Final Answer" in equipment choice.
I like to use Fortification.
Huh. First time I've heard this. Or are you just being facetious as usual?
I was the first one in my old group to use Fortification.  The other folks thought I was crazy to value CON over DEX.  Fortification + DR + high CON meant soon they were paying attention to how I made my character not to laugh at, but to copy.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2010, 02:01:59 AM »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2010, 09:46:14 AM »
What is the highest level you play to? Because the only thing DDO does it change it from ML 15 to ML 11.
I don't play DDO. I've heard Fortification is very popular because of the large number of critical hits when fighting lots of monsters over time (grinding). Meaning everyone has it or they die.

I meant what is the highest level you played to in D&D. It's the same principle. Don't go splat from random damage spikes. It happens more on DDO, but death means less there so it's about the same.

Also, Dex builds are common among inexperienced players. Give them a clue and they'll shape up.
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RobbyPants

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2010, 10:29:41 AM »
The problem with Heavy Fort as a solution, is by definition, by the time you can afford it, the game's already in full rocket-launcher-tag mode because of the casters.  It's like the designers wanted to give all the meleers some sort of grim choice: be vulnerable to crits or be vulnerable to SoDs.  :smirk

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2010, 11:50:30 AM »
The problem with Heavy Fort as a solution, is by definition, by the time you can afford it, the game's already in full rocket-launcher-tag mode because of the casters.  It's like the designers wanted to give all the meleers some sort of grim choice: be vulnerable to crits or be vulnerable to SoDs.  :smirk



Not quite. Getting full attacked, and being critted on it is death when it's monster on PC. Without that you'd survive at low HP. So in a sense Heavy Fort does protect you from a type of save or die. And yes, it's full RLT at this point. But it's not as if buying Heavy Fort means you'll have bad saves - either you will or won't anyways, and therefore you will or won't be caster bait anyways.

So yeah, casters would fuck you over but they'd do that anyways.
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snakeman830

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2010, 11:54:08 AM »
So yeah, casters would fuck you over but they'd do that anyways.
And in the meantime, precision-damage spammers aren't.
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BeholderSlayer

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2010, 12:18:59 PM »
I always work in a way to snag a heavy fort effect, whether it be a spell or actual Heavy Fortification. We all know that actual immunities are better than increasing your chance of avoidance (i.e. Immunities are better than saves, Immunity to Crits/Sneak attack can be better than having a marginally useful AC, etc.). If you can get a ridiculously high AC, you probably already have the means to be immune to critical hits (i.e. you probably have spells), so you might as well pick that up too. The best spells that offer heavy fort-like effects give other bonuses as well, like Elemental Body (immunity to critical hits, immunity to flanking, posion....flight, darkvision).
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Godless_Paladin

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2010, 12:27:27 PM »
Look at it this way.  What else are people gonna put on their armor besides enhancement bonuses (if they're not just using Magic Vestment at +5 CL) and flat cost bonuses in core?  Spell Resistance 17?  DR 5/magic?  Blinding?  It's pretty much that or Ghost Touch, so it's not a bad bet you'll run into people using Fort armor in a Core Only game.

Completely screwing over Rogues and safety from crits is a decently sound investment.  Especially since non-caster melee damage is more anemic in core (most of the ubercharging tools are in other sourcebooks).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 12:37:59 PM by Godless_Paladin »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2010, 12:42:26 PM »
And in the meantime, precision-damage spammers aren't.

I always work in a way to snag a heavy fort effect, whether it be a spell or actual Heavy Fortification. We all know that actual immunities are better than increasing your chance of avoidance (i.e. Immunities are better than saves, Immunity to Crits/Sneak attack can be better than having a marginally useful AC, etc.). If you can get a ridiculously high AC, you probably already have the means to be immune to critical hits (i.e. you probably have spells), so you might as well pick that up too. The best spells that offer heavy fort-like effects give other bonuses as well, like Elemental Body (immunity to critical hits, immunity to flanking, posion....flight, darkvision).

Look at it this way.  What else are people gonna put on their armor besides enhancement bonuses (if they're not just using Magic Vestment at +5 CL) and flat cost bonuses in core?

All of this. Worst case scenario it's 35k gold to shut down an entire archetype of characters and prevent damage spikes. Well worth every penny. No serious character should be without it, and that includes higher level enemies.

Remember kids - you're an adventurer. If you don't have Iterative Probability working in your favor you're going to be faceplanting at least once a session. Saves are only good if you're on a 2 or better basis, which means you are either a full spellcaster or one of a handful of specific builds (anything with Cha to saves, anything with stupid high Str/Con and Steadfast, and even then you'll probably need a Mass Conviction to pull it off). Even if you are, 1/20 chance to faceplant a turn adds up fast, which is why every serious character packs immunities to at least the common effects. Namely precision, death, poison. This also has the interesting but useful side effect of shoving it to power tripping DMs, as they all have a fetish for "Assassin (PRC) attacks you at night, make a Fort save vs death and another vs poison." Even if you were in your Mansion.

And like GP said. There aren't many good special properties. Even in an all open books game. The armor enhancement as touch AC one in the MIC is good, and maybe an energy immunity or two to shove it to any random 'cast a 30th level spell via metamagic reduction' type evokers but that's about it. Oh and Animated shields, just to make Aelryinth cry. :D
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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BeholderSlayer

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2010, 01:05:03 PM »
Back on topic for the OP, Alter Self can potentially break the game, and that's only at level 3. Tack it onto an Otherworldly level 5 wizard and BAM, you've got a Dwarven Ancestor that can cast spells and have higher than 30 AC at level 5, though that isn't core.

IMHO, once Polymorph comes into the picture it's game over. A wizard's options are virtually endless. He ignores environment-based challenges (traps, geography, etc) and he can fight better than a fighter. He also has access to spells that eliminate much of a need for being a sociable person. Writing an Illusory Script on his shirt that suggests everybody "be my bestest friend in the whole wide world" can make social encounters obsolete. He can scout reliability with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

For this reason, I think the true break down level is level 7, in the case of wizards.

In the case of druids, it's level 1. Animal Companion for combat, spells for BFC, summons/speak with animals for scouting. They aren't as good at social encounters, though, and can't quite ignore environmental threats until later. However, they're already stomping on the toes of the fighters and rogues, and can heal to boot. If you don't think that's good enough, by level 7 they roll up the game and light it on fire with strong Wildshapes.

Clerics don't quite have the versatility of either class above. However, at level 1 they are already stepping on the fighter's toes, and by level 5 they are stomping on them, and at level 7 they literally crush the fighter's foot. They don't have the strong scouting abilities of the wizard, but can pass okay at it by level 7. Environmental hazards must be dealt with in a pretty imaginative fashion, but they do have Summon Monster and Air Walk at level 7. I suppose for the cleric, the true breakdown point is level 7.

Just looking at the above, in my opinion the true, absolute break down point is level 7.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:07:40 PM by BeholderSlayer »
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X-Codes

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2010, 05:40:24 AM »
I suppose if you're looking for the point where Casters are clearly better than everything else, that level is around 7 or 8 (Clerics and Wizards get their ridiculously awesome spells at level 7, Sorcerers get the same spells at level 8, and Druids get Wild Shape (Large) at 8).  If we're looking for the point where Casters are capable of doing anything the other classes are doing, just not all at once or all day long, it's about level 5.

That said, if we're looking for the point that casters are sufficiently capable of handling all roles (even though Fighters and Rogues might still do certain things better), then we're really talking about level 3.  Sure, a given caster will probably have to drop 2 buffs to deal enough damage to even compare to a Fighter or Rogue, but it can deal damage worth comparing.  That, combined with the long-term prospects for these guys, really makes it hard for me to want to play a Fighter or a Rogue.

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2010, 09:36:11 AM »
And don't point out 4E. That system fucked up the best part of the Bo9S by breeding it with 3.0 Psionics (Huh, I have a high Cha and I'm a Paladin. Guess I take the Cha-based powers almost exclusively). Then they killed off the recovery mechanic.

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awaken DM golem

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2010, 08:13:26 PM »
Druid 5 ... if it has access to Awaken 1/day somehow, starts a loop.
That loop is part of T_G's breaking the core.

If spellcasting services are available ... then the end happens fast.
Level 3 PCs have enough dough, to buy PAO's.
Arguably, a level 1 Wizard or Sorc can Charm Person + Hypnosis ... ala deathwishjoe.
Even if you say Fanatic is out (from Epic), targeted Commoner 1s still might give you lots of money.
Non Wiz / Sorcs can wait a day, might need a decent Diplo check before hand.
So what about 1800 gp from two of them? 8th level spells right off the bat ?!
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lans

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Re: We know core is broken, but what breaks it, when, and how?
« Reply #53 on: October 20, 2010, 03:48:37 AM »
You think maybe we should make a stickied and condensed version of this? And other broken stuff, considering this gets asked twice a week, and once every full moon.

Contact other plane and other divinations
Most HD based spells
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Force cage
Timestop
Action economy
Save or dies aren't really broken like the other spells are.
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