Core Class Replacement (Tier 2 & 3)

[Necrosnoop110]

Ok, assume for a moment you wanted to replace the core base classes with a balanced spread of Tier 2 & Tier 3 classes, what would you pick? For this experiment you are forced to pick one and only one class to replace the core class or you have the option of retaining the core class. Try and retain the spirit and intent of core class (see below for my shot at this).

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways.  Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Tier 3:Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so.  Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Core Classes

Code: [Select]

Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard

[Necrosnoop110]

Here's my first stab at this which, admittedly, could use some help. Shooting for power levels at a Tier 2 & Tier 3 for replacement classes and trying to retain core class "role" as much as possible.

Core Class = Replacement Class
Barbarian = ? ? ?
Bard = Bard
Cleric = Favored Soul
Druid = Spirit Shaman
Fighter = Psychic Warrior
Monk = ? ? ?
Paladin = ? ? ?
Ranger = Duskblade
Rogue = Beguiler
Sorcerer = Sorcerer
Wizard = Psion

[Havok4]

Ranger = Wildshape Mystic Ranger
Monk=Swordsage
Paladin=Crusader
Barbarian=Warblade
Rogue = Factotum
Sorceror and Wizard=Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Wizard-> Aramek's blue mage.
Monk -> swordsage
Fighter-> Warblade
Paladin-> Crusader
Rogue-> Rogue

[lans]

Barbarian=Warblade
Bard=same
Cleric=Favored Soul
Druid= Spirit Shaman if its tier 2 . If not Totemist
Fighter=PsyWarrior
Monk=Swordsage
Paladin=Crusader
Ranger=Tier 3 variants
Rogue=Factotum
Sorcerer=Same
Wizard=Wu jen

[The_Mad_Linguist]

What's with people replacing the rogue?  It's like the archetypal tier 3 class.

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought rogue was generally tier 4, and factotum was tier 3?

[CantripN]

Wizard-> Aramek's blue mage.

Having played a few games with those in them, gotta say that Blue Mages are a clear Tier 1. They are on par with Archivists, Clerics & Wizards, and quite often better than either, if you're smart about picking spells.

[veekie]

I thought rogue was generally tier 4, and factotum was tier 3?

Equipment availability issue I believe.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

I would include Binder for this not sure where though,

[Dictum Mortuum]

Ranger = Wildshape Mystic Ranger
Monk=Swordsage
Paladin=Crusader
Barbarian=Warblade
Rogue = Factotum
Sorceror and Wizard=Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer.

This  ^^

[Lycanthromancer]

You can also toss druid for totemist or wildshape ranger, and you can replace fighter with incarnate, in case it matters. Psion definitely will hit the mage role, as will the sorcerer, and barbarian is replaceable with totemist or a warblade with various options for raging. Barbarian's an odd case, though, since it can actually fit quite well in a tier 3 group, since it's got enough flexibility in its skills that it's pretty high tier 4 (something the rogue also has; it's either really high tier 4 or really low tier 3, and is difficult to justify completely on one side or the other).

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Wizard-> Aramek's blue mage.

Having played a few games with those in them, gotta say that Blue Mages are a clear Tier 1. They are on par with Archivists, Clerics & Wizards, and quite often better than either, if you're smart about picking spells.

Yeah, but we're cutting out a bunch of the better spell lists as well.  With no wiz/cleric to draw from, it gets a little more difficult.

[Aliment]

Here's my first stab at this which, admittedly, could use some help. Shooting for power levels at a Tier 2 & Tier 3 for replacement classes and trying to retain core class "role" as much as possible.

Core Class = Replacement Class
Barbarian = ? ? ?
Bard = Bard
Cleric = Favored Soul
Druid = Spirit Shaman
Fighter = Psychic Warrior
Monk = ? ? ?
Paladin = ? ? ?
Ranger = Duskblade
Rogue = Beguiler
Sorcerer = Sorcerer
Wizard = Psion

Its funny because theres a Tome of Battle  class for all the ones you left with a

[fuinjutsu]

Are we talking mechanical similarity or flavor similarity?

Barbarian = Wildshape Ranger, Warblade, Totemist
Bard = Bard, Beguiler, Incarnate
Cleric = Incarnate, Crusader, Ardent
Druid = Wildshape Ranger, Totemist
Fighter = Warblade, Psychic Warrior
Monk = Swordsage, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate
Paladin = Crusader, Psychic Warrior, Incarnate
Ranger = Binder, Totemist, Swordsage
Rogue = Beguiler, Bard, Swordsage
Sorcerer = Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Binder
Wizard = Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Psion

[RobbyPants]

What's with people replacing the rogue?  It's like the archetypal tier 3 class.

Here it comes (there was a thread on this a week or two ago).

Veekie's right about gear.  The rogue has a lot of weaknesses to overcome.

[juton]

Rogues are at the place that if you really like them then they play as tier 3, especially if your sneak attack can hurt undead. To be a good Factotum player it helps if you are a good Wizard player and are familiar with the spells, so you should probably leave it up to the player which to be.

Also for Rogues/Rangers would taking Daring Outlaw/Swift Hunter bump them up into tier 3? It's not a huge surge in power but they are effective.

[veekie]

The rogue with UMD and a wand utility belt is probably acceptable as a Tier 3(wands, which, amongst other things, help deal with sneak attack immunity and provide high damage touch attacks). The rogue played 'straight' and with a DM who doesn't let him stock up is in trouble.

[RobbyPants]

Also for Rogues/Rangers would taking Daring Outlaw/Swift Hunter bump them up into tier 3? It's not a huge surge in power but they are effective.

I like Daring Outlaw a lot, but I don't know if that alone would make the rogue tier 3.  Really, all it does is let you multiclass swashbuckler to play a rouge with less skill points, but more HP and a better BAB.  It's nice for a melee build, but you're still primarily relying on the usual rogue tricks to actually do anything.

Don't get me wrong: I do consider it a straight-up power boost.  You get more HP, better BAB, +Int to damage, Weapon Finesse for free, and a good Fort save, but the stuff you really care about is Sneak Attack (and all the ways to use it more effectively) and UMD.  Daring Outlaw just makes you more survivable and gives you a good in-game reason to put a feather in your hat and wear fancy boots.

[Lycanthromancer]

Daring Outlaw just makes you more survivable and gives you a good in-game reason to put a feather in your hat and wear fancy boots.

Oh?[spoiler][/spoiler]