Question about LoP's Beholder Mage Trick

[LunaticsLament]

I was just looking at Lord of Procrastination's Beholder Mage Trick.  Summary

Through use of Polymorph any Object and Metamorphic Transfer, characters can qualify for Beholder Mage, a kickarse
class.
Ingredients
Beholder Mage (prestige class) [Lords of Madness, pg 42-44]
Polymorph any Object (spell) [Players Handbook, pg 263]
Beholder (creature) [Monster Manual, pg 25]
Metamorphic Transfer (feat) [Expanded Psionics Handbook, pg 48]

Now I was wondering if there was a plane where Beholder's are considered native outsiders?

If so one could use the Planer Shepard's ability to wildshape into the native outsider of their chosen plane plus the assume supernatural ability feat for druids to wildshape into a Beholder and assuming it's antimagic cone ability so that one might put out the eye.

Would this be possible?

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

There's a valid plane for two cosmologies - standard Greyhawk and FR. In the standard cosmology, the Great Mother is found on the 6th layer of the Abyss (Realm of a Million Eyes); in FR's cosmology, she is the prime inhabitant of the Deep Caverns. In both cases, she's the one who spits out more beholders. You can probably connect the dots from there. 

[LunaticsLament]

Hehehehe...  Wow...  I think I've found the build seed for my first druid :-D

Anyone have things to add?  I'll probably start throwing this together after shopping tonight.

[LunaticsLament]

There's a valid plane for two cosmologies - standard Greyhawk and FR. In the standard cosmology, the Great Mother is found on the 6th layer of the Abyss (Realm of a Million Eyes); in FR's cosmology, she is the prime inhabitant of the Deep Caverns. In both cases, she's the one who spits out more beholders. You can probably connect the dots from there.  

What is the source for the Deep Caverns?

Edit: NM... Found it in Players Guide to Faerun.

Edit:  So would I choose the Abyss as my chosen attuned realm or specifically the Deep Caverns?

[KellKheraptis]

There's a valid plane for two cosmologies - standard Greyhawk and FR. In the standard cosmology, the Great Mother is found on the 6th layer of the Abyss (Realm of a Million Eyes); in FR's cosmology, she is the prime inhabitant of the Deep Caverns. In both cases, she's the one who spits out more beholders. You can probably connect the dots from there. 

Hmm...so get a whole second set of spells/day accessible whenever you're wildshaped, which will be constantly, and it can't be dispelled, unlike the PAO method, while still kicking ass and taking names normally as a fucking Planar Shepard?  Even easier than the Kobold method, and easily FAR more powerful

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

Edit:  So would I choose the Abyss as my chosen attuned realm or specifically the Deep Caverns?

Depends on your cosmology, as above. (The Deep Caverns are explicitly distinct in FR.) Plus, Eberron itself doesn't have an outside plane with beholders as native outsiders. But this sounds more theoretical than practical, so go with whichever you'd prefer.

[altpersona]

looks to me like the only issue is getting to mix settings..

 the part about only being able to use your class stuff while shaped bothers me but thats just me..

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

...and I just realized that this mostly doesn't work.

Why?

Beholders are aberrations rather than outsiders.

Racing after a trick and not noticing something's wrong, that's us.

Aberration Wild Shape would work however with Assume Supernatural Ability, however. So Planar Shepherd is actually unnecessary. 

[OblivionSmurf83]

I don't think this one works anyways. The main reason for this is the Wild Shape doesn't actually change your type. Now, presumably, being a 'true beholder' actually requires you to be an aberration? This is part of the reason why Planar Shepherd efreeti can cast Wish upon themselves, incidentally, they're still nongenies when Wild Shaped... It's just in this situation it comes back to bite us in the ass.


Mind you, if someone came up with a way around that problem, you would still not really be able to combine 10 levels of Beholder Mage and 10 levels of Planar Shepherd (Or rather, 9 levels of each since that's when they get their capstone abilities). A somewhat sneaky way around this problem, assuming you again qualified as a 'true beholder' would be to also take the Divine Minion template. This gives you the Wild Shape ability of an 11th level Druid. This qualifies you for Beholder Mage after level 1. The build would go something like this:

Druid 1/Beholder Mage 9/Planar Shepherd 9

In this case, you'd be using your Beholder Mage levels for all your spellcasting, with your Planar Shepherd levels just there to give you some Wild Shape goodies. Incidentally, does anyone know if Divine Minion stacks with a Druid's Wild Shape ability? Does anyone have an authority for it stacking? If it does, I can't see how the template isn't mandatory for all Planar Shepherds, given how much it would increase your Wild Shaping ability by.

[telehax]

The PAO trick also doesn't let you keep the new type IIRC, so if that doesn't work, the entire trick doesn't work in the first place, thus, I think for the sake of discussion, it should probably be assumed that True Beholder refers to the fact that there are lesser beholders like the gauth which aren't considered true.

In eberron, the plane of Xoriat contains any creature with the pseudonatural template, so basically almost anything. Allowing you to perform the trick without setting-mixing. However, the issue is whether or not pseudonatural beholders count as beholders..

[Brainpiercing]

PAO gives types without problems. You'll lose everything if you're dispelled, but.... the trick should work.

[LunaticsLament]

There may be a way around the type: Aberration problem.  IIRC the Planar Shepard has a bit in it specifically mentioning that templated creatures from the realm in question are allowed for your wildshape.  Can anyone think of a template one could slap onto a beholder which would make them an outsider?

EDIT:  Now that I'm looking at the level 9 Planar Shepard ability, it gives you all extraordinary, spell like and supernatural abilities of the creature.  I think that would be enough to qualify as true beholder at that point if you got it with the right template.

[awaken DM golem]

... lemme see if I get this.

Druid 1 / Divine Minion +1 with Aberrant Wildshaping Feat
qualifies for Beholder Mage.
Nice.
But how long can the wildshaping be kept up ?

[Endarire]

Maybe pseudonatural (Complete Arcane) would outsiderize our beholder.

[Negative Zero]

Maybe pseudonatural (Epic Level Handbook) would outsiderize our beholder.

[telehax]

I like how everyone completely ignored my suggestion about pseudonatural.

It's as if it wasn't there!

[InnaBinder]

I like how everyone completely ignored my suggestion about pseudonatural.

It's as if it wasn't there!

Did you post?   

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Mind you, if someone came up with a way around that problem, you would still not really be able to combine 10 levels of Beholder Mage and 10 levels of Planar Shepherd (Or rather, 9 levels of each since that's when they get their capstone abilities). A somewhat sneaky way around this problem, assuming you again qualified as a 'true beholder' would be to also take the Divine Minion template. This gives you the Wild Shape ability of an 11th level Druid. This qualifies you for Beholder Mage after level 1.

Wow, it sounds like someone has been reading up on my Triple 9's

I don't think this one works anyways. The main reason for this is the Wild Shape doesn't actually change your type.

The type is not required explicitly. RAI however might support this.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Haven't read your triple 9's thread, actually! Would like to, though, link?

Also, Telehax, pseudonatural doesn't work. The templated exception only applies to Wild Shaping into a magical beast, so you'd need a template that changed the Beholder's type into Magical Beast, rather than Outsider... Is there even a template that's capable of doing that? (I'm a little fuzzy on 'type' hierarchies)

[McPoyo]

Haven't read your triple 9's thread, actually! Would like to, though, link?

Also, Telehax, pseudonatural doesn't work. The templated exception only applies to Wild Shaping into a magical beast, so you'd need a template that changed the Beholder's type into Magical Beast, rather than Outsider... Is there even a template that's capable of doing that? (I'm a little fuzzy on 'type' hierarchies)

Nope. Magical beast is pretty far down the line, and definitely lower than outsider or aberration, both.