Kell's at it again-needing a few good PrC's

[KellKheraptis]

I've been reading up on some combinations lately, in reference to both my Warmage guide on 339 and the UM thread I made here, and am wondering a few things :

-How many full caster PrC's (at least for 4-5 levels) can you get into at level 1 besides Rainbow Servant?

-Is there a means other than Prestige Paladin to qualify for Sword of the Arcane Order (i.e. a class that explicitly grants Paladin spells), particularly without losing a/two casting level(s)?*

-Has anyone else other than Endarir noticed the passage in Complete Divine under Contemplative that basically gives you the entire Cleric list for free with one level?

-Aside from three feats reclaiming the school lost to Incantatrix, is there a means to get the same level of versatility in application of metamagic as Metamagic Effect without losing a caster level/casting progression level (Spelldancer doesn't work on Necromancy and one other school IIRC, and unless Anima Mage doesn't require a Binder level to progress Binding, it's out too)?

I think that covers it for now.  What I have so far is sneaking into Singer of Concordance to nab Magic domain, followed by at least 4 levels of Dweomerkeeper (accessible via Alternate Source Spell) and somewhere in there a level of Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative, and 4 of Prestige Paladin to get Sword of the Arcane Order.  It barely squeaks into 9th level spells, but with the full Cleric, Sor/Wiz, Paladin, and Warmage lists.  It just has a bunch of goo-levels that could be filled with some godly shit, and that's where I'm drawing a blank.  If I can get better shit to throw in and save those two lost CL's, awesome

* - shaky territory, and probably technically TO, as it's used as a replacement for the base class.  Disclaimer administered

[GawainBS]

I believe the Silverflame Pyromancer from Five Nations gives you access to Paladin spells and only sacrifies one caster level, possibly none.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you are a dragon, there's a loophole in "races of the dragon" that lets you into "singer of concordance" immediately (dragons automatically qualify).  It's not the best, but it's decent.

Looks like contemplative gives you first level cleric casting for a single level dip... not really that good.

[KellKheraptis]

It didn't mention anything about the level of spellcasting, only that you have the effective spellcasting of a cleric.  I'm reading it as full access (which can't be RAI, but from the looks of it that's the RAW).

[Emy]

If you're a true dragon, some archetypes [DoE] can give you the ability to cast spells from the druid list (Child of Eberron) or the Cleric list and some domains (Fortune's Fang, Guide of the Weak, Lightkeeper, Master of the Hoard, Passion's Flame) as arcane spells. These normally apply to a dragon's racial spellcasting ability, but it doesn't say that it applies to racial or sorcerer spellcasting only, so a warmage could use them... if the warmage is a true dragon -- generally a suboptimal choice.

edit: Unless you think that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, in which case it is very optimal.

[KellKheraptis]

If you're a true dragon, some archetypes [DoE] can give you the ability to cast spells from the druid list (Child of Eberron) or the Cleric list and some domains (Fortune's Fang, Guide of the Weak, Lightkeeper, Master of the Hoard, Passion's Flame) as arcane spells. These normally apply to a dragon's racial spellcasting ability, but it doesn't say that it applies to racial or sorcerer spellcasting only, so a warmage could use them... if the warmage is a true dragon -- generally a suboptimal choice.

edit: Unless you think that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons, in which case it is very optimal.

Bloody Cheesewrought Instabolds...now if only one of them added Sor/Wiz >.>  I'll take that into consideration, as the Rainbow Servant and now it seems Contemplative are ironclad in giving the Cleric list.  The big gem is the Sor/Wiz list, and anything that comes with it is just pure gravy.  Do each of those Sovereign Archtypes (of which I'm only moderately familiar with Loredrake and Wyrm of War) state they add access to spells/domains/lists?  Any time I'm on the dinosaur computer I'm away from my books (stupid Win98...but at least it's not too slow browsing), other than the duplicate hardcopies I have (which are core, and Complete Arcane, LM, Stronghold Builder's and a couple other 3.0's, all the climate books other than Sandstorm, and no Eberron ).

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you gain cleric spells, it doesn't advance your other spellcasting.  It's an "either or" thing, part of the class's "spells per day/spells known".  It's just like those monk PrCs that stack with monk levels or grant monk abilities if you don't have them.

[Archmage Joda]

I believe the Silverflame Pyromancer from Five Nations gives you access to Paladin spells and only sacrifies one caster level, possibly none.

Except Silver Pyromancer has that clause that says that warmage and its ilk don't get to add the paladin spells to their class list through it.

[GawainBS]

I believe the Silverflame Pyromancer from Five Nations gives you access to Paladin spells and only sacrifies one caster level, possibly none.

Except Silver Pyromancer has that clause that says that warmage and its ilk don't get to add the paladin spells to their class list through it.

I was going from memory. Besides, it still grants access to those spells.

[Endarire]

Maybe this will help qualifications. Complete Divine 32, along the left column under Spells per Day/Spells Known, says this for Contemplative:

"If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric."

Here is the full text.

"Spells per Day/Spells Known: A contemplative who was previously a spellcaster continues to gain access to more  powerful divine magic while following the contemplative path. Thus, when a new contemplative level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in the spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefi t a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, more frequent remove disease, and so on).  This essentially means that she adds the level of contemplative to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day accordingly. For example, if Theresa, an 11th-level cleric, gains a level as a contemplative, she gains new spells as if she had risen to 12th level as a cleric, but uses the other contemplative
aspects of level progression such as base attack bonus and save bonus. If she next gains a level as a cleric, making her a 12th-level cleric/1st-level contemplative, she gains spells as if she had risen to 13th level as a cleric.

If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a contemplative, the player must decide which class to assign each level of contemplative for the purpose of determining divine spells per day and spells known.

If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric."

My understanding is you get access to the full cleric list, but your official cleric caster level is the same as your contemplative level.

I'm unsure how you'd get this bonus, because qualifying for contemplative says:

"To qualify to become a contemplative, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Skill: Knowledge (religion) 13 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells.[/i]
Special:

[Endarire]

Full caster PrCs enterable at level 2 with the right tricks:

-Master Specialist (Complete Mage) - Requires you be a specialist wizard with L2 casting and 5 Spellcraft ranks.
-Ruathar (Races of the Wild) - Requires L3 casting

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'm unsure how you'd get this bonus

Oooh!  I know that one!

You take magical training, versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, and alternative source spell.  That gives you first level divine spells independent of class.

[Endarire]

I'm unsure how you'd get this bonus

Oooh!  I know that one!

You take magical training, versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, and alternative source spell.  That gives you first level divine spells independent of class.

Would this allow you to enter Mystic Theurge as a full Wizard then?  If so, how would the divine spells progress?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I'm unsure how you'd get this bonus

Oooh!  I know that one!

You take magical training, versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, and alternative source spell.  That gives you first level divine spells independent of class.

Would this allow you to enter Mystic Theurge as a full Wizard then?  If so, how would the divine spells progress?

They wouldn't.  The trick's really only good for qualifying for prestige classes that don't advance casting.

[Brainpiercing]

What exactly does Alternate Spellsource do? Do you get to pick and choose which spells are arcane or divine?

In any case, I think it doesn't work. You advance only the cleric casting portion, and the spells are not added to the Warmage list, unlike Rainbow Servant.

[Tshern]

I'm unsure how you'd get this bonus

Oooh!  I know that one!

You take magical training, versatile spellcaster, heighten spell, and alternative source spell.  That gives you first level divine spells independent of class.

Would this allow you to enter Mystic Theurge as a full Wizard then?  If so, how would the divine spells progress?

Too many feats there. Magical training, Alternative spell source and Sanctum spell are all you need.