Convince me about psionics.

[woodenbandman]

Will someone explain to me why psionics are considered good? I'm aware of the coolness that a Psychic warrior gets and how good they are at melee, but as a primary caster, I feel that a psion is very lacking. I don't know why, I just get this feeling that they're woefully underpowered, and the stuff that they do that IS powerful is just so cheesy it should be thrown out along with Wish, Gate and Shapechange.

I've looked over the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and I just can't quite figure out: What is the deal with psionics? Could someone show me a build that will change my mind about psionics being weak?

[bogsnes]

The Psion isn't actually underpowered, it is at a power level a small bit above the sorcerer since level 1 powers can be useful your whole career as they can be augmented. Which means that Astral Construct, a level 1 power, can replace the whole SM line...

The only problem is, it can't be used too much for utility...

The damage powers does also scale as good, 1d6 per PP...

[archangel.arcanis]

Bogsnes hit it on the head. Psions are good but not nearly so as wizards and don't get any love from WotC so their list almost never got expanded.

blasting is where a psion can outpace a wizard at a basic level since all of the energy x powers let you choose what type of energy on manifesting and scale upward to your level, but at a cost. They also can manifest in any armor which is nice but nothing really special.  I also personally prefer the point system over the spell slots so i can use the points devoted to lower level powers to fuel higher ones, ie i don't have 10 1st level spell slots that will never get used.

Psionics also has the advantage on never having to move to use a power, so hold person just keeps them from getting into position they can still manifest. It also has some nice flavor of its own and has almost no broken powers besides some of the ones that are direct translations of spells. 

Also i would advice against using the errata they made us pay for to nerf things that didn't need to be nerfed, ie the Complete Crap Psionic book.  The rules changes in this book served no purpose other than to remove the psion from any consideration as being near the power level of a wizard. The most grievous being Astral construct being limited to only 1 at a time while summon monster left alone, and Damage reduction applying to all non-energy powers by default unlike spells that have to specify that DR applies. Your typical double standard stuff.

[Prime32]

A "Convince me psionics aren't underpowered" thread? Wha, did I stumble into Bizarro World?

Casting in full armour helps. And psicrystals are better than familiars.

[RobbyPants]

A lot of why people love psionics is the same reasons they love ToB: it's a more balanced system than the alternative.  So, as ToB balances melee by improving it, psionics balance magic by limiting it (well, that is, if you were to replace magic with psionics).

There are a lot of good design principles in psionics, and one of the best of them is the concept of the psionic focus.  If casters could only use their best tricks by droping their magical focus (or whatever), and had to spend a full round action to gain it back (or a move action and a feat), then it would help with some of the metamagic schenanagenz.

Of course, as mentioned, psionics lacks a lot of the basic utility of magic, so it's not so much fun off the battlefield.

In terms of blasting, I think it's easier to blast out of the box with psionics, assuming you're not putting too much effort into it.  A wizard or sorcerer can do far better at blasting later in the game when they can bring all their metamagic feats to bear.  The problem with metapsionic feats is you have to pay for them with PP, and you're limited on how many PP you can spend based on your manifester level.  So, while a psion has to choose between spending some PP to directly augment a power or to fuel a metapsionic feat, the wizard doesn't need to; his spells simply scale with caster level for free.

[PhaedrusXY]

One thing psions can do better than wizards: They can put the psionic equivalent of a Time Stop into their Contingency without resorting to Craft Contingent Spell.

Of course, if you add enough splatbooks, wizards are definitely better. That's a problem of having more support for wizards, not a fundamental flaw with psions.

[pfooti]

In terms of blasting, I think it's easier to blast out of the box with psionics, assuming you're not putting too much effort into it.  A wizard or sorcerer can do far better at blasting later in the game when they can bring all their metamagic feats to bear.  The problem with metapsionic feats is you have to pay for them with PP, and you're limited on how many PP you can spend based on your manifester level.  So, while a psion has to choose between spending some PP to directly augment a power or to fuel a metapsionic feat, the wizard doesn't need to; his spells simply scale with caster level for free.

This is what I view as the most annoying thing about psionics - if you want to blast, you have to scale the power yourself. On the other hand, almost all the blasting powers let you choose an element, so you're never without a really good way to stick it to somebody. Also, Energy Missile is the best blasting spell or power in print, other than its low level (making it susceptible to things like globes of invulnerability).

But they do gain a lot of interesting flexibility with their augments, and the use of psionic focus is very interesting. Straight from the SRD, they're pretty comparable to sorcerers in certain roles. They don't have the utility of a wizard (how many sorcerers learn Knock? not many. How many wizards have it in their book for a rainy day? Probably more). But still, when they focus on certain abilities, they can do quite well.

[Bozwevial]

One thing psions can do better than wizards: They can put the psionic equivalent of a Time Stop into their Contingency without resorting to Craft Contingent Spell.

Of course, if you add enough splatbooks, wizards are definitely better. That's a problem of having more support for wizards, not a fundamental flaw with psions.

Because the one splatbook (excluding the XPH) dedicated to psionics was a disaster, and because WotC's only concession towards psionics was a feat, power, or in rare cases, a PrC found in some out of the way book.

[woodenbandman]

Ah. I think I can see the appeal of psionics now. It's SUPPOSED to be underpowered. That makes so much more sense.

Assuming that you reign in the spell->power shenanigans, I would consider just transferring a few powers into spells and banning spells if I wanted a more balanced campaign. ToB, Psionics, Incarnum, Binders, and Factotums, oh my! Also, maybe Bards and Wildshape rangers (though bards are pretty fuckin' house, they'd be the new wizard in this game).

[bogsnes]

Not Soulborn or Soulknives, though.

Also, I don't think psionics was meant to be weaker than spells, it is just the lack of splatbooks that does it, mainly.

If there was a power compendium similiar to spell compendium I think it would be as good, or close to...

[ReaderOfPosts]

There are also a few small character niches that they do do better, such as enchanters (Psionic Dominate is considerably better than the spell equivalents).

[RobbyPants]

Ah. I think I can see the appeal of psionics now. It's SUPPOSED to be underpowered. That makes so much more sense.

Assuming that you reign in the spell->power shenanigans, I would consider just transferring a few powers into spells and banning spells if I wanted a more balanced campaign. ToB, Psionics, Incarnum, Binders, and Factotums, oh my! Also, maybe Bards and Wildshape rangers (though bards are pretty fuckin' house, they'd be the new wizard in this game).

I had seriously considered doing that myself a while back, but I never took the time.  I saw the spellpoint system in Unearthed Arcana and thought, why not take it a step further and convert the mechanic entirely?  It'd be a lot of work, but it could be so much more balanced in the end.

[sonofzeal]

Ah. I think I can see the appeal of psionics now. It's SUPPOSED to be underpowered. That makes so much more sense.

Assuming that you reign in the spell->power shenanigans, I would consider just transferring a few powers into spells and banning spells if I wanted a more balanced campaign. ToB, Psionics, Incarnum, Binders, and Factotums, oh my! Also, maybe Bards and Wildshape rangers (though bards are pretty fuckin' house, they'd be the new wizard in this game).

Supposed to be underpowered compared to what?  Psions are probably in the top 10 most powerful classes printed (below the top 5 though); Psychic Warriors do everything the "Fighter" class was supposed to do and make it much more effective at higher levels (below ToB though); Elans belong on the short list of best La+0 races; and War Mind is one of the most powerful gish PrCs ever printed.  Psionics is not underpowered, it just isn't ludicrously easy to break the game with, like Druids or Wizards.

Beyond that, I've always disliked Vancian casting.  It's inflexible, and creates a bookkeeping nightmare.  In a high level group I'm in right now, play routinely grinds to a halt as the Wizard agonizes over her spell list for half an hour before we can actually run around doing things.  That's not fun, that's not good gameplay, and she still never seems to have the right combat spells prepped.  Psionics is mp based, you know, like 99% of console RPGs out there, because the system is easy to learn, elegant to apply, and makes gameplay tick along smoothly.  And it also just makes more sense!  Why should a 20th level Sorcerer only be able to cast Light six times, when he still has enough magical energy to evoke half a dozen Meteor Swarms?  And if he casts his half-dozen Meteor Swarms, why can't he eek out one more when he's still able to keep casting other spells for another 60-70 rounds?  Even more fundamental, why does a Wizard "forget" how to do things every time he does them?  Psionics addresses all of this in a way that simultaneously speeds up gameplay, reduces unnecessary bookkeeping, is more balanced, and generally makes things more fun for everyone involved.

I prefer Psi specialization too - rather than choose one school you can cast more of, you get access to a broad swathe of new and quite effective powers.  A Conjurer Wizard could prepare a lot of Transmutation spells and appear to be a Transmuter, but an Egoist Psion can do things that a Telepath can't, and vice versa.  And discipline powers are generally a little more effective than generalist powers, which is an added motivation to use them.  And of course there's Expanded Knowledge for those who want to be generalists, meaning that being a generalist takes some dedication (in terms of feats) but truly ends up a more flexible character, while a Generalist Wizard often gets strangled by his lack of spellslots and sometimes ends up with less flexibility than a specialist.  (See this article for an explanation of why I think generalist wizards don't work as intended)

So.  I'm of the firm belief that Psionics is a categorically better system than base magic in D&D, hobbled somewhat by its relative lack of support and by botched efforts at incorporating psi in 2e and 3.0e.  It's not perfect (I'd be tempted to remove the Psi Focus mechanic), but it's still the best system for magical power that I've seen come out of WotC.

[pfooti]

Nice post, sonofzeal. I think from an aesthetics viewpoint, you're spot on.

Now, from a strict optimization viewpoint, there are some neat things you can do with psionics that you can't easily replicate elsewhere.

First of all, Ego Whip is an insanely good power. An ego whip specialist can easily trivialize encounters, although they make even better BBEGs. Monsters tend to have decent charismas. PCs almost always have an 8 or lower cha.

Secondly, Energy Current is a VERY efficient power for direct damage. It's a plain old CLd6 power, but it isn't capped, and will keep running each round you concentrate, up to 1 round per level. Drop it on the BBEG, and pick up his buddies when you can. Now, it's not easy to keep running, since you have to spend a full-round action maintaining it, but if you can make it work, it's very nice.

Third, Energy Missile is an amazing power. The sonic version of the power does full damage to objects and bypasses hardness. Each manifestation can target 5 things, including attended objects. So you're not only doing CLd6 damage to some bad guy and his two friends, you're also doing it to the cleric's holy symbol, the wizard's spell component pouch, etc. If you want to risk the loot, you can destroy weapons as well. Even by itself, it can target lots of people, but is selective enough that your day isn't ruined if your buddies all go first and charge into the battle (wait! I need to fireball first!)

And that's just the powers I thought of off the top of my head. The PrCs in there are great, too. Anarchic Initiate is an AMAZING blaster PrC. Each time you manifest a power, you have a chance to get it either maximized or empowered, and if it's empowered, it still can be empowered via an empower feat, so it get double-empowered. Yeah, there's a 25% chance you'll do half damage, but on balance the expected value of Chaotic Surge is well worth it. Plus, it doesn't require any extra pp to use Chaotic Surge! Double-plus: once you've hit anarchic initiate level 3, you can psychic reformat away the Overchannel feat and free up the slot, since the PrC is self-qualifying. Slayer is 100 times better than eldritch knight (not hard to do, admittedly), and Thrallherd will provide you with a limitless stream of willing slaves (you don't have to follow normal leadership rules).

Overall, you can do very well with psionics. If you're prone to nova-ing, or if you know your DM only throws 2 encounters at you per day (or can control the encounters/day number), you can outperform most arcane casters. Really, the only weakness comes from lack of support in terms of official splats (insert plug for the amazing 3rd-party book Untapped Potential right here). Not game-breakingly good, but very good.

I find the hardest part is getting DM support for it. If we play in a completely transparent game, then the DM doesn't have to do anything fancy. SR is PR, and so on. It's only when it comes time to hand out treasures that I'm usually passed over if I play a psion. Even still, there's a perception that psionics are way overpowered among many gamers. Staying away from the really abusive powers (metamorphosis / metamorphic transfer, ego whip) helps in that domain.

[Operation Shoestring]

I actually like vancian casting.  But yeah, wizards are just too powerful, which is why, like that other guy I wanna run/play Psionics/Tob/Incarnum/TOM games (throw in factotums and bards too).  It's FAR better balance than core, and frankly, I suspect casting magic is old hat to most of us now, so it'd be fresher and more fun to do it this way.  Psionics and Incarnum, in particular, have superb synergy, and are lots of fun to play.

Sure, a psion will be outmatched by a wizard or sorceror in most cases, but she's still quite powerful.

Though I must note, Erudites get *really* broken with a little spell-to-power abuse....

[anomalousman]

Psions are powerful, but not in a wizard/artificer/archivist/druid way.  Like those other classes, they have tricks that need to be stopped by a DM to make the game work, but it's a much smaller list.

I would say that psions are actually worse blaster than a wizard, except in nova situations.  They can probably put out more damage per round, but their total supply of power points makes this a very inefficient strategy for a standard working day.

The real attraction of psions as a player is that they're vastly more flexible than, say sorcerers.  They have more powers known, and a much larger fraction of them (up to all) are useful for their whole career.  Plus, powers tend to be inherently more flexible than spells.

[woodenbandman]

Just so we're clear, I know psionics is considered more powerful than, say, a fighter, because of Ego Whip (brokenly good), and some standard wizard tricks they emulate... I just think that they're not good enough to justify playing one when you could be, say, a factotum. The wizard's supposed to be the weak guy in the back ( ), and I think that, for the guy in the back, the psion doesn't have enough tricks outside of standard blasting and a few things like psionic grease. hell, there isn't even psionic Web!

[sonofzeal]

Just so we're clear, I know psionics is considered more powerful than, say, a fighter, because of Ego Whip (brokenly good), and some standard wizard tricks they emulate... I just think that they're not good enough to justify playing one when you could be, say, a factotum. The wizard's supposed to be the weak guy in the back ( ), and I think that, for the guy in the back, the psion doesn't have enough tricks outside of standard blasting and a few things like psionic grease. hell, there isn't even psionic Web!

I'd put the Psion well above the Factotum for power, and honestly fairly close to the Wizard in power, and here's why...

- no ASF.  If a Psion doesn't need to make attack rolls, she doesn't take any real penalty for nonproficiency with armor/shields.  This means you can get a much higher and more reliable base AC than a Wizard, with minimal investment.  Or you can use Inertial Armor and be just as good (and scale more smoothly) as a Wizard with Mage Armor.

- Vigor.  The ability to have temp hitpoints out the wazoo at the drop of a hat is not to be underrated, and can significantly extend a Psion's lifespan compared to a Wizard, in situations where hp damage is unavoidable (which, honestly, come up in just about every session I've ever played).  Wizard has no comparable spell I've ever seen.  Try Vigor, shared with a psicrystal, followed by Share Pain.  CL*10 extra hitpoints before you start actually taking damage is pretty sweet.

- Energy Missile.  A better blast power than just about any spell I can think of.  Available at low level, does solid damage that can bypass most defenses based on how you type it, easy to target enemies without catching friends in crossfire.  Categorically superior to Fireball in almost all contexts, and makes Psion blasting quite viable at almost any level.  Yes, blasting's weak for arcanists, but the Psion can take this one power and having blasting covered sufficiently for just about her entire career, and be a solid contribution to most teams.

- Astral Construct.  Pretty solidly superior to most uses of Summon Monster, and again only requires a single power as opposed to an entire chain of spells.

- Charm/Dominate.  Psionic versions are cheaper, better, and more flexible.  Seeing as how these are some of the best "save-or-lose" spells out there (since you simultaneously lose a foe and gain an ally), that's saying something.  And again, you're bundling multiple spells into a single power that you only have to take once.

- Ego Whip / Crystallize / etc.  Wizards have their famous save-or-lose powers, Psions have their own.  Don't expect a Psion to have the same tricks a Wizard has, and don't expect a Wizard to have the same tricks a Psion has.  Psions don't get "Web", but they get plenty of other useful powers.  And, because so many of their powers cover multiple spells, they're free to choose a wide variety to cover all their bases, without needing to spend half their WBL on scribing.

- Freedom of Movement / Concealing Amorpha / Overland Flight / Contingency / etc.  Psions get their own forms of most of the classic popular Wizard spells, and generally get them at the same level, and they're generally just as effective.  Actually, a lot of them are conciderably better written; check out Genesis vs Genesis.  Several of the most common abuses of the spell have been clarified in the psionic version, and the whole thing has more detail and is spelled out more clearly.

Again, I'm not trying to argue that Psions are better than Wizards.  They're not; Wizards get way more totally broken spells, and scribing extra spells covers the gap (at the cost of gp) in spell/power flexibility.  There's a very good reason that Wizards are commonly agreed to be the pinnacle of 3.5 power, and the Psion isn't going to topple them.  But unless you're Wish-looping or Gate-spamming, it's in the same league.

[Lycanthromancer]

I wrote my psionic powers revision to grant more options to manifesters specifically because they don't have nearly the options that core casters have. I also smoothed over a lot of rough areas, closed a bunch of broken loopholes, and made psionics in general slightly more powerful on average (mostly through giving a standard scaling rate for powers, additional options, and making nigh-useless powers more interesting and useful).

However, even in the plain vanilla XPH, there's a lot of power and versatility under the hood if you look past the most obvious options, and can think around limitations.

For instance, shapers are one of the best grappling classes in the game. Wanna know why? Astral constructs. Seriously, look at the grapple modifier on a level 9 construct. Now add a few menu options. Extra Attack, Pounce, Improved Grab, and Muscle. Now it can make 3 attacks on a charge, making grapple checks for free at a +40 grapple check. On top of that, it's easy enough to pump out large numbers of low-level constructs to Aid Another on your first turn in combat to pump your numbers up to inane levels. And while you're grappling the tarrasque (at absolutely no risk to yourself), you're free to take pot-shots from a distance.

A lot of psionic powers have far more combat/out-of-combat flexibility than they're given credit for on first glance. Look at time hop, and consider all of the uses for being able to making an object disappear for a few rounds. You can bypass doors, hop out chests to get at the gold without searching for traps or breaking the locks, and target the horse of that charging paladin over there (you know, the man with the sky-high Will saves, but with a mount with very small ones, and who wears plate-mail, and is almost useless when ground bound?). Psionics takes a bit of imagination to bring to full power, since, unlike spells, the full uses of a given power are rarely spelled out. They're generally non-specific enough that they can be used for purposes that weren't (necessarily) intended.

Again, look at astral construct. What kinds of things can you do with an ever-changing toolbox of disposable parts that you can craft to make look like almost anything you want it to? Heck, I once held off a CR 23 dracolich by myself for several rounds with a level 16 shaper/constructor that used multiple constructs to confuse it into thinking I'd split myself into 10 different pieces (since we'd blinded it, and it used its blindsense to track me down, since it was determined to abduct me specifically) until my party could kill it. I also used constructs to break down doors, to 'disable' traps, to ride as flying mounts, to act as surrogate blasters (see energy bolt), as pack-mules, to cart my body off when I was paralyzed, and a wide variety of other purposes. (Taking the 3.5 constructor PrC was so worth it; even with the loss of MLs.)

Not to mention all the cool things that I did with psionic minor creation.

Use your imagination, and the only class that can match a psion on sheer awesomeness is a focused illusionist.

That's why I like psions.

[Negative Zero]

+fu. That is all I can say.