Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster

[ErhnamDJ]

But both of those both lead to the same scenario: the wizard in his tower, on his plane, who sends out Astral Projections to handle any outside interaction. He can unleash hordes of undead, gated solars, simulacrums, other constructs, Ice Assassins (even if we don't allow it to convey deification). The wizard 'in the party' doesn't have to be 'within physical proximity to the party.'

I can't think of any reason why a wizard 'in my party' would ever be outside his tower. At this level of play, long, drawn-out excursions (actually, excursions of any kind) are beyond necessary and are quite foolish to anyone with a 30+ Intelligence. They're not going to be on a romp through the woods, or sitting in the pub. Even in a party type situation, these are some of the wealthiest and most famous people in existence. They're forced into seclusion one way or the other. Either through adventurers wishing to relieve them of their wealth, or evil forces (or good forces, as the case may well be) wishing to purge the world of the threat to their own power.

These people really only need to 'do things' when the world is in danger. Even if they are a party.

That does not require the wizard to leave the safety of his home.

[jameswilliamogle]

The Binder -
1) uses Astaroth's Divination ability to realize the Wizard is on another plane (and which one) and using Astral Projection (or, alternatively, Karsus w/ a staff for contact other plane); 
2) uses Naberius's skills for "Knowledge Local - Tu'Narath";
3) goes there (via Karus and a staff of teleportation and Plane Shift, maybe);
4) uses massive diplomacy (Naberius + The Triad + maxed Diplomacy) to convince some of the more powerful Githyanki that said wizard is a threat to the Gith (which he probably is);
5) uses Astaroth's Divination again to determine where the silver chord is (or some other divination ability);
6) tells the gith and forces the wizard to deal w/ the situation

The Binder could alternatively use a staff with Astral Projection in it, too.

EDIT: I mean, if we're being silly, then why not?

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, assuming all that other stuff works, how do they 'force the wizard to deal with the situation?'

[jameswilliamogle]

Okay, assuming all that other stuff works, how do they 'force the wizard to deal with the situation?'

Army of Gith hacking the silver chord.

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, they hack it to bits. They have successfully 'forced' the wizard to frown. The Binder... wins? Then the wizard gates in a ton of dragons, hits them up with a Psychic Reformation who take out the binder while all in a Spell Stowaway Time Stop.

The binder never sees it coming and the wizard has now increased his wealth by an amount equal to what the binder had (minus the cost of the dragons).

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So anyway, based on what spells are available to wizards and general defensive concerns, a traditional tower is much less efficient than just making a massive underground complex.

In addition, as the wizard levels he'll be finding better and better locations to set up in, leaving a trail of emptied underground complexes across the countryside, with perhaps some permanent spells remaining in them for air, light, et cetera.

The locations of these, in turn, are given as gifts to powerful nonhuman allies of the wizard, and eventually change hands until a powerful dragon gives one as a gift to its most powerful reptilian servants.

So, in the end, they're filled with kobolds.

Theoretical wizards are responsible for every first level party's dungeon crawls.

[jameswilliamogle]

Okay, they hack it to bits. They have successfully 'forced' the wizard to frown. The Binder... wins? Then the wizard gates in a ton of dragons, hits them up with a Psychic Reformation who take out the binder while all in a Spell Stowaway Time Stop.

The binder never sees it coming and the wizard has now increased his wealth by an amount equal to what the binder had (minus the cost of the dragons).

Breaking the chord kills the projection and the wizard.

EDIT: Plus, he needs a 24/7 method to keep an eye on it if he's to even know that its being attacked (this doesn't seem hard, though).

[jameswilliamogle]

Theoretical wizards are responsible for every first level party's dungeon crawls.

That makes so much sense!

[ErhnamDJ]

Well, I wasn't talking about a traditional 'tower,' but just using the word to represent whatever sort of defenses he creates on his Genesis plane.

It could be an amusement park with his study inside a giant, mechanical clown-head. You can keep the entire plane covered in a Dimensional Lock spell, through the rules in the Stronghold Builder's Guide. There's really no way in short of DM fiat through the creation of an epic spell (or the use of deities; rank 6 or higher would get 'er done, but even still, the deity would have to know where you are. I think there are ways around that).

While I was typing this, James said: "Breaking the chord kills the projection and the wizard."

That's why I said he frowns. You just cost him the use of one of his Revivify Contingencies. Or forced him into one of his clones. Or made him use up a scroll of True Resurrection. Whatever.

It's not like he wouldn't have that chord protected, anyway. And using Astral Projection would only be required for the most dire circumstances, which couldn't be taken care of through the use of minions ordered about from his Genesis plane.

[jameswilliamogle]

Right, except the Binder convinced the high-Gith Lich Queen to drop multiple Barghest's Feasts on the body the moment the wizard passed.

I consider this all in the realm of impractical optimization.  I think its OK to do it in those terms, but its kind of pointless.

EDIT: What protections (aside from minions) could he cast on the chord?  Army vs. minions to me means the minions die (maybe rapidly).  Besides, this all costs the wizard XP and tons of cash (unless we're up to "breaking the economy" stuff).

[ErhnamDJ]

Of course, I said "assuming all that other stuff works." It doesn't.

The Binder -
1) uses Astaroth's Divination ability to realize the Wizard is on another plane (and which one) and using Astral Projection (or, alternatively, Karsus w/ a staff for contact other plane)

-- Doesn't work. Wizard is immune due to Mind Blank. As is his tower (which is an Intelligent item, which also has Mind Blank). As does everything else on his plane. "This spell protects against all . . . information gathering by divination spells or effects." Remember?

5) uses Astaroth's Divination again to determine where the silver chord is (or some other divination ability)

-- I'm sensing a pattern here...

[jameswilliamogle]

Lol, put up a build, then  !  I can't assume the Wizard you're describing is the same that was a page ago or so.

I did say a long time ago that I'd already admitted defeat, but I don't see how the Wiz could have all this barring infinite cash-generating schemes.  Except for a few choice staffs, the Binder is totally equipment independent (but, could also do the same shenanigans via staff usage).

[ErhnamDJ]

The wizard doesn't need much in the way of cash, either. He gets his stronghold from the Landlord feat. His Legacy Item doesn't cost much. He can sit around with an assortment of scrolls. Most of his costs are in experience and there are ways around that.

If I somehow find myself with a large amount of free time on my hands, I may work some exact build up.

[jameswilliamogle]

Cool!  Looking forward to it!

Anyways, the build in the other thread has no real cheese on it, currently.  I'm going to put a version of it over on the ConsolBinderHandbook over on 339, just to get more input over there.

[juton]

I think in a real campaign you might not go to Ye Olde Dungeon of Death, but what's the point of being the most bad-assed mortal in all the planes if you are holed up in your tower for the rest of your life.

Assuming a 20th level has something approaching the same psychological needs as a regular person they will need interaction, real face-to-face (and physical) human interaction or they will go insane. That's not hyperbole, stick someone in solitary long enough and they'll crack.

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, sure. He could fit a whole large sized city in his plane. All you'd need to do is make sure everyone was high enough level to found their own legacy and get an item with Mind Blank. So, guess that means a few more castings of Genesis are required. Might want Leadership for that, but I feel it extends beyond the scope of this challenge.

How about he just have some awakened constructs and undead *cough*thoughtbottle*cough*.

Definitely need a Simulacrum of a Midgard Dwarf *cough*thoughtbottle*cough*

And, of course, the rest of his life will probably be for eternity. Every once in a while, he'll need to get hit up with a True Reincarnation or whatever it's called.

Also, if we need Epic Spellcasting, it's certainly possible to get at level twenty. Since we're using Dragon Magazine, we can even buy (I mean Wish for *cough*thoughtbottle*cough*) scrolls of Fusion, which we can use on any number of fun friends we've just gated in.

Why settle for only one compound full of faithful servants willing to go to war with the cosmos to keep you alive? Why not have three or four?

Perhaps we should disallow the Thought Bottle from this experiment.

[juton]

Wouldn't of thousands of Mindblanked citizens in a city on your demiplane, be um..., a security risk?

[ErhnamDJ]

I don't see how they could be. If it's that much of a concern, we can craft an Epic spell to make a species of beings who are most certainly not such a risk.

Or they could all just be first level commoners, who are unable to cause any harm. And, if they're all created on that plane to start with, no one would ever even know they exist. Only a god or--

That brings to mind the idea that the opposition could use Epic Spellcasting to reach us. A troubling thought indeed. We must use our own Epic Spellcasting to prevent such an eventuality from occurring.

Still, though, our largest defense is the lack of knowledge concering the existence of the Genesis plane.

[juton]

Let's say that you have a bunch of mindblanked constucts that look like Elves. I polymorph into an Elven contstruct with mindblank up, how are you going to tell us apart?

Also, how exactly do you get Epic spellcasting?

[ErhnamDJ]

Well, you'd have to make a disguise check.

But you could do that already if you could find out that the plane existed and get there. You could disguise yourself as part of the wall or as one of the many Simulacrums or craft some epic invisiblity spell that got around Mindsight.

Anyway, Mindsight is my answer, as is the dire tortoise, along with all the defenses inside the actual stronghold.

Epic Spellcasting comes from using Fusion with a gated in dragon or something that can qualify for the feat.