Anti-caster build ideas 2: Building the caster

[mans0011]

Edit: I see that mans0011 also suggested the Diviner + Insightful Divination in his earlier big wall of text (post).

hah! You know my big wall of text is awesome! I provides cover, concealment and blocks LoS/LoE. Yeah... was totally late at night and super tired when I wrote that. :-/ Sorry.

Wizard 8/Loremaster 10/Archmage 2 is really great, actually. It lets us drop scribe scroll for Improved Initiative and we can keep Spontaneous Divination. You really cannot argue with the sheer power of Spont Div. Then again, that just might be the reason for not using it. "See, we don't even NEED spontaneous divination to destroy you utterly and thoroughly."

Loremaster has some cool tricks and Archamge 2 gives us Arcane Reach (? but with no Enchantment we lose irresistable dance, and THAT's a funny thing to beat a fighter with.) and Spell power? Or Maybe Spell power and Mastery of Shaping? An AMF donut kind of hinders our familiar, though. /shrug.

If we're not doing anything better with Shapechange, Shapechange ->Formian Queen + Mindsight should deal with any sneakytypes (as darkstalker doesn't protect against Mindsight).

My understanding of darkstalker is that it does stop mindsight. Seeing as how mindsight functions like blindsense and this hides from blindsense.

I've got more to say about all this, but I'm at work so I cannot really do it now.

[jameswilliamogle]

fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects."

"[Mindblank] protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects..."

"...all fear effects are mind-affecting fear effects." 

But not all "fear" is a "fear attack".  In fact, "fear attack" isn't defined.  "Fear effect" is defined as something that leaves one shaken, frightened, or panicked (but not cowering) in the PHB.

My take on it:
"Cowering", "shaken", "panicked", and "frightened" never is called a "fear attack".  They are instead "conditions generated by fear", from the wording of the above.

"Intimidate's Demoralize Opponent" never is called a mind-affecting or fear effect or attack.  It just says "frozen in fear".

Intimidate makes anyone susceptible to Demoralize Opponent put in the "cowering" condition without being a fear attack or mind-affecting ability, therefore it works on creatures otherwise immune to fear.

Intimidate's inability to target creatures immune to fear don't apply here, as there is at least one ability which is not a "fear attack" that'll scare the wizard.  Call that ability "threat of Pun-Pun".  Mindblank characters can get scared, just not by "fear" effects.  So, intimidate works.

Am I too hung up on "fear attack"?  Probably.  But, if the Wizard side is going full-bore, so will I.[/spoiler]

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, accepting that a rogue could kill you if it found you (which I don't believe for a moment, considering you're a dire tortoise with twenty Contingencies, a half a hundred buff spells running, while in a tower on your plane, where you're next to your familiar and surrounded by Simulacrums), through what means is someone going to locate you?

Is the rogue going to use a scroll of Ice Assassin to become Corellon? If we're allowing that, then the wizard really can't be beat.

[juton]

I think I'm going to wait a few hours for more suggestions then update the build on the front to match Phaedrus's.

Really, the most powerful school is Divination, but how is a Wizard going to use it? I like Spontaneous Divination, but with Uncanny Forethought and extra spells from being a Diviner do we really need it?

A general questions to the posters on this thread : What would make things easier for the mundane, limiting the Wizard to core only or banning him from casting, using or having cast on him divination spells?

[mans0011]

I think I'm going to wait a few hours for more suggestions then update the build on the front to match Phaedrus's.

Really, the most powerful school is Divination, but how is a Wizard going to use it? I like Spontaneous Divination, but with Uncanny Forethought and extra spells from being a Diviner do we really need it?

A general questions to the posters on this thread : What would make things easier for the mundane, limiting the Wizard to core only or banning him from casting, using or having cast on him divination spells?

I really don't know if that's a legit condition. Divination is such an important part of wizardliness that you are not permitted to ban it as a specialist. Ever. Period.

James, I think you are getting caught up on the fear thing. Can you use intimidate to affect constructs or undead? Mindblank makes you immune to emotional effects. I think you're trying to be too precise here.

Also, I really don't think we need to resort to the Axis of Evil (Shapechange, Timestop, Mage's Disjunction and Gate). I think we can win with other tactics. I don't see how a mundane class wins initiative against us. Am I wrong?

[jameswilliamogle]

James, I think you are getting caught up on the fear thing. Can you use intimidate to affect constructs or undead? Mindblank makes you immune to emotional effects. I think you're trying to be too precise here.

Definitely can't affect creatures which are Mindless; that's a different issue.  Definitely can affect intelligent undead.  This is all my opinion, though.  I respect the position of the opposite side, but just kept getting slammed like a bang-me-in-the-ass federal prison, so have become obstinate.

I'm not really getting caught up on it, though.  Since both Foresight and Mindblank can't be running simultaneously, there's an "in" one way or the other, I think.  In other words, either the character can cast Celerity and can be affected to Imperious Command, or the character can't cast Celerity and can't be affected by Imperious Command...  Unless the wizard avoids being caught flatfooted in some Shapechange form (in which case, I just wait 44 rounds while hidden somehow).  Of course, folks will probably say I'm reading to much into Foresight...

EDIT: Unless there's something that says Foresight and Mindblank can be used together (like FAQ or something - I haven't checked).  I only played one high-level wizard, as I found it not-so rewarding, personally, as it was just too easy.

[mans0011]

I think you make as good an argument as you can, but I ultimately think that it's splitting semantic hairs. I think you might also be reading too much into foresight, but then you kinda have a good argument there, too. I don't think that I would rule foresight/mindblank a combo that fails. Let's see, we've got at least caster level 24 (Rainbow falls location, ring of arcane might, orange ioun stone and the magic tattoo spell [spell compendium]) and possibly 25 if we take archmage. With three castings of any spell and using greater metamagic rod of extend, we've got 24 hours. Not to mention that a Wizard will find out if he's being hunted and just teleport daily to avoid being found. Again, I just don't see how mundane characters will keep up with and track a wizard.

[Straw_Man]

  We should use the Axis of Evil, real casters do. Ortherwise it isn't a proper challenge. 

[Echoes]

As to the BarBinder, fear effects (of which being shaken is one) are all mind-affecting, so mind blank stops that cold.

Mindblank, I contend, also prevents Foresight from being used.  Some of us also discussed the Intimidate thing... I don't remember how it went (it doesn't have the [mind] descriptor, nor does it mention that its a mind-affecting effect).

EDIT: over on 339 it became a silly, contradictory loop sort of discussion.

Shaken is a fear effect. All fear effects are mind-affecting (as per the Rules Compendium).

You might have a point with the mind blank/foresight thing. There are other ways to become immune to mind-affecting effects though. Veil of undeath works for it (and gives a host of other immunities as well), so we can just use that and keep the foresight/celerity combo.

[jameswilliamogle]

Not exactly sure how I'm reading Foresight too far...  Just going to reprint the relevant parts I'm talking about...

Foresight
Divination
...Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell....

Mind Blank
...This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects....

See what I mean?   Mind Blank probably screws over the Diviner about lots of stuff (part of the reason I like Phaer's Diviner is that it doesn't use it, but of course that makes him vulnerable).

EDIT: Intimidate is not a fear effect.  Cowering / shaken is a fear condition, but not a fear effect, just a result of a fear effect normally (but not when Demoralize Opponent is used).  (LATER EDIT - Checking on the Rules Compendium, it has the same wording as the SRD, using fear attack, but not fear effect, anyways.)

I don't want to discuss the Intimidate thing.  I understand my viewpoint is not the majority viewpoint.  I understand why folks don't believe my viewpoint.  I'm willing to accept, for the sake of argument, the opposing viewpoint.  Enough said?

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, going through this one more time:

PHB, page 77: A character immune to fear (such as a paladin of 3rd level or higher) can't be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

Now, page 253 has Mind Blank, part of which states:

"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts."

Now, what I ask is: Is there any way something can cause fear without influencing emotions? If you can find such a thing, perhaps it will get past Mind Blank.

I would dig through the Rules Compendium, but I don't have access to it right now. Perhaps it changes things?

Also, I don't see how Foresight would be blocked by Mind Blink. It doesn't mention anything mind-affecting, nor anything that detects, influences, of reads your emotions or thoughts. It doesn't say through what mechanism it warns you. Perhaps it whispers things into your ear. Perhaps it taps out morse code through vibrations in your foot. It doesn't say.

Foresight isn't relevant, anyway; a cunning item is preferable to Foresight, I think. It's always on. Items of Legacy can't even be disjoined.

[mans0011]

I think that mind blank blocks divinations that try to gather information about you. Foresight is giving you information about other things. I see where you're going with it, but it's kinda iffy.

[jameswilliamogle]

Now, what I ask is: Is there any way something can cause fear without influencing emotions? If you can find such a thing, perhaps it will get past Mind Blank.

Sure!  The character is just afraid.  No game mechanic required.  He's not immune to fear, just things with the [Fear] descriptor.  Maybe his mother is sick.  This is how I see Intimidate working, and why I think it works.

I would dig through the Rules Compendium, but I don't have access to it right now. Perhaps it changes things?

Nah, it has exactly the same wording as the SRD, essentially (even the annoying "fear attack" wording).

Also, I don't see how Foresight would be blocked by Mind Blink. It doesn't mention anything mind-affecting, nor anything that detects, influences, of reads your emotions or thoughts. It doesn't say through what mechanism it warns you. Perhaps it whispers things into your ear. Perhaps it taps out morse code through vibrations in your foot. It doesn't say.

It generates "instantaneous warnings" and is a divination spell, where Mind Blank protects from any "information gathering by divination spells or effects."  I think that any way Foresight communicated it, its information.  Anyways, as before, if the majority view is that you can have both, I won't argue it (though I won't like it).

Foresight isn't relevant, anyway; a cunning item is preferable to Foresight, I think. It's always on. Items of Legacy can't even be disjoined.

I agree.  Again, more item dependence, but it has to be done, I guess...

EDIT: I guess I ought to work on items for the BarBinder, but I'm tired.

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, I think I see what you're saying about Foresight.

Is it that it would protect you from being detected by Foresight if you had your own Mind Blank?

So if you had Foresight up, it would warn you about a tree about to fall on you, but not a rogue sneaking up with Mind Blank on?

[jameswilliamogle]

Okay, I think I see what you're saying about Foresight.

Is it that it would protect you from being detected by Foresight if you had your own Mind Blank? <-Yes, I believe so.

So if you had Foresight up, it would warn you about a tree about to fall on you, but not a rogue sneaking up with Mind Blank on? <-I don't think it would do either

(I'm assuming you mean, if both Foresight and Mind Blank were up.)
"This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another."  Since its in relation to yourself (unless you cast it on someone else), I don't think you'd get info on either the tree or the rogue.

EDIT: Less fluffy - "Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell."  Since that has to be via information transfer of some sort, and Mind Block stops information via divinations in relation to yourself, it can't work (in my opinion).  So, Mind Block foils Foresight (I believe this includes every aspect of what Foresight offers).

Its easy to get around, either way, of course.  Mind Blank, I believe, is what people are using to avoid Imperious Commandage.  The majority opinion is that immunity to [Mind] also means immunity to Commandage, so there's options there (although I'm not sure 4-5 people are a majority, but I'm the only one defending my position, so I'll concede it for this thread). 

People are using Foresight to never be caught flatfooted, so they can use Celerity.  You've mentioned some ways to get past this, too, though I'm not familiar w/ them (sourcebooks?  I'd like to read up on them).

[ErhnamDJ]

Okay, I think I see what you're saying about Foresight.

Is it that it would protect you from being detected by Foresight if you had your own Mind Blank?

So if you had Foresight up, it would warn you about a tree about to fall on you, but not a rogue sneaking up with Mind Blank on?

(I'm assuming you mean, if both Foresight and Mind Blank were up.)
"This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another."  Since its in relation to yourself (unless you cast it on someone else), I don't think you'd get info on either the tree or the rogue.

EDIT: Less fluffy - "Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell."  Since that has to be via information, and Mind Block stops information via divinations in relation to yourself, it can't work (in my opinion).  So, Mind Block foils Foresight (I believe this includes every aspect of what Foresight offers).

Its easy to get around, either way, of course.  Mind Blank, I believe, is what people are using to avoid Imperious Commandage.  The majority opinion is that immunity to [Mind] also means immunity to Commandage, so there's options there.  People are using Foresight to never be caught flatfooted, so they can use Celerity.  You've mentioned some ways to get past this, too, though I'm not familiar w/ them (sourcebooks?).

I see now what you mean. Mind Blank says: This spell protects against all . . . information gathering by divination spells or effects.

Not sure why they worded it the way they did, but it sure does screw you over.

[Straw_Man]

  Hmm, it's no foresight (no pun intended) on their parts, but it feels very RAI. Your spell makes you hidden from all spells and magical scrutiny, but at the cost of being unseen by your divinatory efforts as well.

[jameswilliamogle]

Yes, but its easy to get around for the main thing that its used for (using Celerity and avoiding Imperial Pwnage).

Just get immunity to [Mind] from some other method, and use Foresight. (Just mentioning that I still find this contentious.)

Or, get another way to not be flatfooted (you mentioned some, but I don't know where they're from, if you could perhaps enlighten me?), then cast Mindblank as normal.  (I don't find this contentious at all, since I don't know the methods for this, but its probably much clearer.  Also, this has the advantage of not getting Scry'd; Mind Blank is so powerful, I'd rather use that over Foresight.)

EDIT: LOL @ Straw_Man!  I must be tired...

This feels like AMF shutting down L9 spells even though its 8th level, to me.

[Straw_Man]

This feels like AMF shutting down L9 spells even though its 8th level, to me.

  Danke. About AMF, it's weird but not necessarily bad. It's good design I think, gameplay wise to keep effects relevant. Otherwise PC's would auto=fail against higher level caster types.

[PhaedrusXY]

Or, get another way to not be flatfooted (you mentioned some, but I don't know where they're from, if you could perhaps enlighten me?),

Shapechange into a minotaur, or there is a feat in Fiendish Codex (9 Hells), other than a Legacy item.

I actually changed my build to put Mind Blank on the caster and rely on being a minotaur, and put Foresight on the familiar. But you could go either way. I do think you have a point about Mindblank and Foresight not working together, though.

Of course, the character could also just be a Necropolitan to avoid mind-affecting things, and leave off Mindblank, but I think actually keeping mindblank is more powerful... but it does limit your own divinations a bit.