Author Topic: Improved Dwarven Defender  (Read 11294 times)

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Elennsar

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Improved Dwarven Defender
« on: October 30, 2008, 11:06:20 AM »
Some partially organized thoughts:

4+Int Skill points, add Fighter class skills to list instead of as DMG.

Requirements (feats): Armor Proficiency (heavy), Diehard, Endurance, Formation Expert. This replaces the requirements in the DMG.

1) A Dwarven defender may move up to his base movement each round while in a Defensive Stance. He does not gain a bonus to Strength, and must fight defensively (or use Combat Expertise) or use Total Defense while in his Defensive Stance. Otherwise, this ability works as written.

2) Dwarven Defenders recieve a bonus to saves versus fear equal to their Defender level.

3) A Dwarven Defender may, at 3rd level and above, add the higher of his Constitution or Wisdom modifier to Will saves.

4) A Dwarven Defender may act normally when disabled. This ability applies from 1st level on.

5) A Dwarven defender recieves a bonus to AC equal to the higher of +2 when using Lock Shields, not +1. This applies from 1st level on.

6) At 8th level on, a Dwarven defender who becomes exhausted is instead merely fatigued, and fatigue has no effect. This also eliminates the winded state after using a Defensive Stance.

Constructive comments and suggestions welcome. This write up is written on the assumption that wizards and other spellcasters are toned down in power, and is intended to be at tier 3 (to use JaronK's tier scale), though it will probably additional features to keep up offensively, as the class (even without the adjustment to Defensive Stance) lacks bite. I am unsure of how high a bonus to give it, however, as my experience in play does not include mid-high teen levels.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2008, 11:19:44 AM »
It's certainly an improvement.  I'll have to take more time to look at it more closely later.

I was reading through the Deepstone Sentinal from ToB this weekend and was wondering if that was intended to be a DD fix.  Still, many stone dragon stances require you to either stand still, or move no more than five feet per round (I don't remember which).  I've always felt the requirement to stand still was the class' biggest weakness.

I'm glad to see you loosened that requirement.
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Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2008, 11:23:16 AM »
Yeah. My thoughts are that Dwarven Defenders don't rely on mobility, unlike say, swashbucklers, but they're not static.

I don't want them to be fully mobile...the whole point of DS is that they're focused on holding their ground, wherever that is, but I do want them able to move about if necessary.

Appreciate the interest in giving it a more through look when time permits, instead of just glancing and forgetting.
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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2008, 11:28:06 AM »
Some partially organized thoughts:

4+Int Skill points, add Fighter class skills to list instead of as DMG.

Requirements (feats): Armor Proficiency (heavy), Diehard, Endurance, Formation Expert. This replaces the requirements in the DMG.

Ditch Diehard and Endurance. Raise BAB requirements to +9 or +10 in place of them. Those feats are weak and worthless past 3rd level at most, seeing as Shape Soulmeld (Rage Claws) does the same damn thing as Diehard without gimping you for actions while in the negatives.

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1) A Dwarven defender may move up to his base movement each round while in a Defensive Stance. He does not gain a bonus to Strength, and must fight defensively (or use Combat Expertise) or use Total Defense while in his Defensive Stance. Otherwise, this ability works as written.

NERFED! THis makes it worse, as the Str bonus is no better than Rage and Total Defense means you can't attack (or take AoOs, which every Fighter should be doing). The movement increase is nice, but was really the only change needed.

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2) Dwarven Defenders recieve a bonus to saves versus fear equal to their Defender level.

Nice boon. Situational, but nice.

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3) A Dwarven Defender may, at 3rd level and above, add the higher of his Constitution or Wisdom modifier to Will saves.

Replace "or" with "instead". Not that both stats to one save is overpowered, but some people have Negative Wisdom mods, and this reduces MAD for them.

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4) A Dwarven Defender may act normally when disabled. This ability applies from 1st level on.

As I said, remove Diehard. Replace this ability with the effect of Rage Claws, and have it scale with level to give them an effective +50% to their HP.

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5) A Dwarven defender recieves a bonus to AC equal to the higher of +2 when using Lock Shields, not +1. This applies from 1st level on.

Not going to be used by anyone who knows what they are doing, as shields suck hard. Have them get a bonus to AC equal to 1/2 their class level if they are using a shield, and make it a Competence bonus.

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6) At 8th level on, a Dwarven defender who becomes exhausted is instead merely fatigued, and fatigue has no effect. This also eliminates the winded state after using a Defensive Stance.


Meh. May want to improve the DR they gain to 5/-, as that is tempting as all hell.

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Constructive comments and suggestions welcome. This write up is written on the assumption that wizards and other spellcasters are toned down in power, and is intended to be at tier 3 (to use JaronK's tier scale), though it will probably additional features to keep up offensively, as the class (even without the adjustment to Defensive Stance) lacks bite. I am unsure of how high a bonus to give it, however, as my experience in play does not include mid-high teen levels.


Scale the Defensive Stance to be equal to Rage. Thus they get +4 at 1st, +6 at 5th, and +8 at 10th. Add in more uses/day (or make it /encounter).

Defense sucks in DnD, especially when you have to gimp your offense just to avoid the casual AoOs from CR-appropriate enemies. Compare the average AC of a 20th level character to the Full Attack of a CR 20 enemy, and you will see what I mean. The highest reasonably possible AC at 20th is in the low 100s, but that type of character can't take to the offensive worth a damn. Mages have some trouble with AC no matter how much they focus on it, which is why they prefer using miss chance and contengency plans over high AC.

This was one of the crippling factors behin the DD. AC is not something a PC should focus on, seeing as Concealment does the same damn thing while being effective at all levels. An AC of 20 at 1st level is about the same as Concealment 45% at 20th level. Concealment also prevents Sneak Attacks and has a chance of negating a Crit outright. Because of this, the DD is now viewed as underpowered and a horrible choice for a build.


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Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2008, 11:42:08 AM »
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Ditch Diehard and Endurance. Raise BAB requirements to +9 or +10 in place of them. Those feats are weak and worthless past 3rd level at most, seeing as Shape Soulmeld (Rage Claws) does the same damn thing as Diehard without gimping you for actions while in the negatives.


Something that needs to be worked on in regards to the feats, however, not the class. I don't know the details of what Shape Soulmeld does, so please tell if you think it should be used.

Personally, I'm not sure what to do with the BAB requirement, because while I don't think it is necessarily wrong, I don't get why it is needed. For the moment, dropping it to +5.

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NERFED! THis makes it worse, as the Str bonus is no better than Rage and Total Defense means you can't attack (or take AoOs, which every Fighter should be doing). The movement increase is nice, but was really the only change needed.


I've never understood why Total Defense and "no AoO" have anything to do with each other. At least here (Dwarven Defenders), that should be dropped. As for the Strength bonus being dropped: This is intentional. This is the "Immovable object." aspect of the class, which means it should not be hard hitting. Do agree it needs something to make up for that, however.

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Nice boon. Situational, but nice.

Figured they deserve it.

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Replace "or" with "instead". Not that both stats to one save is overpowered, but some people have Negative Wisdom mods, and this reduces MAD for them.

Yeah, bad wording by me. I meant "whichever is better". "Both" wouldn't be a bad feature as an option (as in, "may add both his Constitution and his Wisdom modifiers, if positive."), either.

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Scale the Defensive Stance to be equal to Rage. Thus they get +4 at 1st, +6 at 5th, and +8 at 10th. Add in more uses/day (or make it /encounter).

Defense sucks in DnD, especially when you have to gimp your offense just to avoid the casual AoOs from CR-appropriate enemies. Compare the average AC of a 20th level character to the Full Attack of a CR 20 enemy, and you will see what I mean. The highest reasonably possible AC at 20th is in the low 100s, but that type of character can't take to the offensive worth a damn. Mages have some trouble with AC no matter how much they focus on it, which is why they prefer using miss chance and contengency plans over high AC.

This was one of the crippling factors behin the DD. AC is not something a PC should focus on, seeing as Concealment does the same damn thing while being effective at all levels. An AC of 20 at 1st level is about the same as Concealment 45% at 20th level. Concealment also prevents Sneak Attacks and has a chance of negating a Crit outright. Because of this, the DD is now viewed as underpowered and a horrible choice for a build.

That is something I want to see worked on. As for scaling Defensive Stance: I don't want to make it too good. One of the things that I think should be the goal is to keep the Defender a "in some circumstances" class. In its chosen environment, it should pwn. Outside of that, it merely needs to be able to keep up.

But yes, as written, it is a wimpy prestige class, which is a shame, since it is one of the few truly "generic" concepts in the game.

So, I'd like to add some offensive bite (but not tied to Defensive Stance), make it have an AC actually worth having without having to invest excessive amonuts of resources, and generally make sure that it can take care of itself even if not DSing.

Also, it would probably not be a bad idea to get some "Stupid wizard. Your magic has no effect on ME!" abilities, but I'd rather not bolt those on without getting the core of it as "defensive fighter" taken care of. If it can't do that, its not worth having.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2008, 11:54:55 AM »
Have it require Shield Specialization and Active Shield Defense. ASD allows the player to take AoOs even when using the Total Defense action, and at no penalty when Fighting Defensively.

From there you could give it something similar to a Crusader's Furious Counterstrike except maybe to have it charge up when a Dwarven Defender's allies are attacked/dealt damage.

Not sure what to do with Defensive Stance since it SUCKS. You could give it bonuses to AC, and DR, and Spell Resistance, and Saves... etc, whatever, all that great defensive stuff, but then you should also make it difficult to ignore the Dwarven Defender while he's in the stance. The whole point is to defend other people with your big tough Dwarf body.

Ramp the HD to d12 if it isn't already. You could give the Dwarven Defender temporary hit points while in the stance, and even Fast Healing. Staying mobile is definitely part of the way toward the enemies having a hard time ignoring the Defender, but he needs something more.

I keep thinking of Bulwark of Defense (the Knight ability) which makes all squares you threaten difficult terrain, which is nice, but still not 100% there yet.

My only remaining thought, which is very Dwarven, but also very supernatural, is to give them some kind of ability to strike the ground and create seismic effects to produce walls of stone. As I said, very supernatural, but very effective as well.

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2008, 11:59:39 AM »
ASD only applies to shield using Defenders. Otherwise I like.

I like the Furious Counterstrike idea, as it means that messing with a group of Dwarven Defenders is a VERY bad idea...which is a good thing, in my opinion.

It already has a d12.

Bulwark of Defense, yes, good idea.

One thing I'd like to do is find a way to make it so that if you try and slip by a Dwarven Defender, he gets to whap you with an AOO. Unfortunately, few Dwarven Defenders will get the AOOs to use that.

Something to be adjusted, but I'm not sure how.
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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2008, 12:01:28 PM »
Something that needs to be worked on in regards to the feats, however, not the class. I don't know the details of what Shape Soulmeld does, so please tell if you think it should be used.

Personally, I'm not sure what to do with the BAB requirement, because while I don't think it is necessarily wrong, I don't get why it is needed. For the moment, dropping it to +5.

Shape Soulmeld would be the better one to use, but it is so out of flavor with the class that you would be better off making a variant for Incarnum entirely rather than making it a requirement.

Lowering the BAB requirement is nice. Makes the class better for multiclassers in general.


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I've never understood why Total Defense and "no AoO" have anything to do with each other. At least here (Dwarven Defenders), that should be dropped. As for the Strength bonus being dropped: This is intentional. This is the "Immovable object." aspect of the class, which means it should not be hard hitting. Do agree it needs something to make up for that, however.

Total Defense implies that you are using your weapon, armor, and shield (if any) to actively block their attacks. This prevents you from taking AoOs as you are not in the right position to swing your weapon. The Str bonus being dropped outright hurts the PrC, as it was one of the few bonuses this side of the alignment spectrum that mimics Rage (which make the class very tempting).

You may need to grant them some kind of immunity to forced movement, as Bull Rushing them after they have moved their base land speed can force them out of their stance easily. That was one reason the Str bonus was there, to help bolster them against Bull Rushing.


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Yeah, bad wording by me. I meant "whichever is better". "Both" wouldn't be a bad feature as an option (as in, "may add both his Constitution and his Wisdom modifiers, if positive."), either.

Paladin 7/DD X with the PH 2 feat makes this even nicer, as that's Con twice and Cha once to Will saves. Adding in Wisdom would just make them beg for Mettle.

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That is something I want to see worked on. As for scaling Defensive Stance: I don't want to make it too good. One of the things that I think should be the goal is to keep the Defender a "in some circumstances" class. In its chosen environment, it should pwn. Outside of that, it merely needs to be able to keep up.

The problem is that this class is easily rendered into a Fish out of Water situation. And, as a rule of thuumb, most PrCs for melee characters can't be "too good" at what they do. A Cleric who focuses on combat as much as possible will easily be more powerful that most Melee PrCs out there (though damage-wise it won't be equal to a Charger build, it will still be a big enough threat to the enemy that they have to deal with him somehow).

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But yes, as written, it is a wimpy prestige class, which is a shame, since it is one of the few truly "generic" concepts in the game.

That's something I usually dislike about PrCs. PrCs are supposed to be more focused than base classes, and classes like EK, MT, and even the DD are just too generic IMO. Compare the focus of the Abjurant Champion to the focus of the EK, and you will see a major difference. Then compare MT to it's Druid/Wizard counterpart (which actually gets class features!). That's one of the reasons I haven't ported over my .Hack classes from Gleemax, as they just feel too generic.

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So, I'd like to add some offensive bite (but not tied to Defensive Stance), make it have an AC actually worth having without having to invest excessive amonuts of resources, and generally make sure that it can take care of itself even if not DSing.


That's more of a problem with the combat system itself, seeing as Concealment is more valuable and more benefical than AC. Someone with 100% concealment is nigh untouchable in combat, but even someone with 1000 AC can be hit by a commoner 5% of the time. That 5% chance is a major gap in the defense that would be AC, and renders a serious problem.

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Also, it would probably not be a bad idea to get some "Stupid wizard. Your magic has no effect on ME!" abilities, but I'd rather not bolt those on without getting the core of it as "defensive fighter" taken care of. If it can't do that, its not worth having.

Mettle would be a nice addition to the PrC. They get Good Will saves, and most full BAB classes have the good Fort saves covered anyway. So they effectively have two good saves if you go Paladin 10/DD 10. That screams for Mettle.


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Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2008, 12:10:20 PM »
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Total Defense implies that you are using your weapon, armor, and shield (if any) to actively block their attacks. This prevents you from taking AoOs as you are not in the right position to swing your weapon. The Str bonus being dropped outright hurts the PrC, as it was one of the few bonuses this side of the alignment spectrum that mimics Rage (which make the class very tempting).

You may need to grant them some kind of immunity to forced movement, as Bull Rushing them after they have moved their base land speed can force them out of their stance easily. That was one reason the Str bonus was there, to help bolster them against Bull Rushing.

Its still a bad idea, even if it can be justified. Being unable to take an AOO is too limiting. As for forced movement...agreed. I've been weighing a "can stand still and be immune", but that wouldn't be enough.

As for the Strength bonus: Again, in favor of them getting bite, but not in tying it to DS.

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Paladin 7/DD X with the PH 2 feat makes this even nicer, as that's Con twice and Cha once to Will saves. Adding in Wisdom would just make them beg for Mettle.

I really wouldn't argue against granting them it. It does fit.

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That's something I usually dislike about PrCs. PrCs are supposed to be more focused than base classes, and classes like EK, MT, and even the DD are just too generic IMO. Compare the focus of the Abjurant Champion to the focus of the EK, and you will see a major difference. Then compare MT to it's Druid/Wizard counterpart (which actually gets class features!). That's one of the reasons I haven't ported over my .Hack classes from Gleemax, as they just feel too generic.


Yeah. Generic=bland=weak=bad design. But without having a more specific class set up in general, I'm not sure how to fix that for prestiges.

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That's more of a problem with the combat system itself, seeing as Concealment is more valuable and more benefical than AC. Someone with 100% concealment is nigh untouchable in combat, but even someone with 1000 AC can be hit by a commoner 5% of the time. That 5% chance is a major gap in the defense that would be AC, and renders a serious problem.


Not arguing. But the Dwarven Defender is supposed to be one of the High AC guys, so he needs to actually be there. Fixing the combat system is another step.

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Mettle would be a nice addition to the PrC. They get Good Will saves, and most full BAB classes have the good Fort saves covered anyway. So they effectively have two good saves if you go Paladin 10/DD 10. That screams for Mettle.

Given my druthers, I'd give Paladins Good Will and Mettle. So really feeling pretty confident on Defenders deserving it.

I've a question. As stated, I don't want to tie "we can fuck you up bad" to Defensive Stance. How big a bonus do they need to compete?

As stated, my experience with mid-high teen levels in play is minimal to the ponit of almost literally nonexistant.

Just while musing: Do they need Trap Sense? I'd like to replace it with something more fitting, because I've never understood the logic behind that ability. At least for "Trap finders", it makes sense. But as a general bonus, it seems to be a half assed compensation for "you suck" classes.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 12:13:08 PM by Elennsar »
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veekie

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2008, 12:15:28 PM »
1) nice, the mobility thing is important, seeing as you either need to have some way to make enemies attack you over others(like 4e defenders do it), a ranged attack, or being able to get to your enemy. How adding 'Cannot charge'? Your current version seems to allow for charging while in a defensive stance, is that unintentional?

2)mkay, nothing really interesting there, I'd have put this as a bonus vs trip/bull rush personally, fits the defender better than saves vs fear(which besides, 3) takes care of that), and lets him hold his ground on those even against several size categories difference.

3)nice

4)Interesting, I presume you still take damage from acting in this state? or not?

5)interesting too, but the number of things this class will be getting at first level would appear to be getting top heavy.

6) I presume you need to state that this replaces Mobile Defense, since that ability is useless now(you can move a lot more than 5ft already).

Should Defensive Stance upgrade though? The existing save bonus is resistance, which overlaps with the most common save bonus, so all you'd be getting out of this is +4 dodge AC, +4 Con. While the dodge bonus is indeed pretty cool, does anyone thing it needs some zing to it?

Currently it's just a defensive raging, and unlike a Rage, Con bonuses that wear off aren't anywhere as awesome as Str bonuses that wear off. Some way to keep people in melee in melee would also be nice, possibly a 'stop movement' AoO ability?

Qualification wise, Endurance isn't particularly a good pick either.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 12:18:19 PM by veekie »
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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2008, 12:20:50 PM »
Its still a bad idea, even if it can be justified. Being unable to take an AOO is too limiting. As for forced movement...agreed. I've been weighing a "can stand still and be immune", but that wouldn't be enough.

As for the Strength bonus: Again, in favor of them getting bite, but not in tying it to DS.

Then cut the bonus in half or double the Con bonus, to show that they are more defensive than offensive.

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I really wouldn't argue against granting them it. It does fit. Still, something to be kept in mind so they don't get too good.

No such thing as "Too good in melee". At least, not when you are playing anything not presented to you from TO.

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Yeah. Generic=bland=weak=bad design. But without having a more specific class set up in general, I'm not sure how to fix that for prestiges.

That's my job. I completely revamped the flavor of the Hexblade with one fix. When I get my hands around to working, I can take Club Soda and give it more flavors than Baskin Robins has ice cream. Extra crunchy toppings, at that.

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Not arguing. But the Dwarven Defender is supposed to be one of the High AC guys, so he needs to actually be there.

Right.

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Given my druthers, I'd give Paladins Good Will and Mettle. So really feeling pretty confident on Defenders deserving it.

I've a question. As stated, I don't want to tie "we can fuck you up bad" to Defensive Stance. How big a bonus do they need to compete?

As stated, my experience with mid-high teen levels in play is minimal to the ponit of almost literally nonexistant.


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Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2008, 12:26:05 PM »
1) Yeah, its not intentional. I don't mind them charging and being effective, but DS is meant to be the "we hold here." power.

2) Yeah, they're getting one, I just think that 'effectively fearless" fits too.

4) I'm in favor of "Not." But as written at moment, you do.

5) That is a bit of a problem.

6) Right.

7) I do think it needs some zing.  As for "stop movement"...yeah, I'm not sure what. Zillions of feats and I'm not sure which ones fit. I'm not sure how much "umph' it needs to be a good melee class.

8 ) No, but it does fit. The feat does suck as written, but I don't want to drop it just because WotC can't make it useful.

Dodge and Toughness as requirements are just being cruel, however.

Not commited to Endurance as a requirement, however. Just thinking it fits to be "tireless"

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Then cut the bonus in half or double the Con bonus, to show that they are more defensive than offensive.

Let me rephrase: I'd like to give them a "We can hurt people really badly. Don't even try messing with us." seperate from their "we are immovable objects in your way."

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No such thing as "Too good in melee". At least, not when you are playing anything not presented to you from TO.

Unfortunately true, it seems.

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That's my job. I completely revamped the flavor of the Hexblade with one fix. When I get my hands around to working, I can take Club Soda and give it more flavors than Baskin Robins has ice cream. Extra crunchy toppings, at that.
Then I'd like to know what to do to give it something interesting. Not just more useful, but a little cooler.

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IIRC, DS is a Free action to activate. Leave that be, or if I am wrong, change it to Free. Or Swift. Or Immediate (nasty surprise!).

"Using the defensive stance takes no time itself, but a defender can only do so during his action."

Immediate or Swift action sounds good by me. Running into a Dwarven Defender is supposed to be an unpleasant and exceedingly painful surprise.

Anything that makes them "always ready" to make that true is a good something.


« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 12:27:51 PM by Elennsar »
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2008, 12:32:09 PM »
Why not have them get Diehard as a bonus feat without needing the Endurance requirement? Then you can have it improve with levels as a seperate class feature. Gradually work your way from normal Diehard to 4E negatives for HP+Improved Diehard (not an actual feat, but I can work out the wording easily).

Quote
Then I'd like to know what to do to give it something interesting. Not just more useful, but a little cooler.

Reflavoring the class takes a lot of time, and it usually happens when I sit down and take a few days to work on it. I'd help you as much as I can on this, but it would take weeks for me to change up even one class.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2008, 12:38:06 PM »
Can't argue with that. Hell, give them Diehard as a bonus feat and Endurance.

Should they take damage while acting under the influence of (Improved) Diehard?

As for reflavoring: No pressure. But if you do have something you think would make it actually worth a damn, by all means tell me.

No point having a thread on changing the class if people are refusing to share ideas on it. : )

Thanks for your help so far.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2008, 12:41:35 PM »
Can't argue with that. Hell, give them Diehard as a bonus feat and Endurance.

Should they take damage while acting under the influence of (Improved) Diehard?

As for reflavoring: No pressure. But if you do have something you think would make it actually worth a damn, by all means tell me.

No point having a thread on changing the class if people are refusing to share ideas on it. : )

Thanks for your help so far.

Try and find a copy of the MoI. They have the Rage Claws soulmeld, which does what Diehard should have done.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2008, 12:45:51 PM »
My version of Diehard:

Diehard
Prereqs: Base Fort Save +3 or higher, Con 15+
Benefit: You do not fall unconscious at 0 hitpoints. You can continue fighting while below 0 hitpoints as if you had 1 hitpoint. You do not die at -10 hitpoints, but rather when your negative hitpoints equal 1/4 your maximum hitpoints (or -10 if higher). Once per day you can reroll any save against a death, ability damage/drain, or negative level effect with a +2 bonus to the roll.

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008, 12:59:09 PM »
Try and find a copy of the MoI. They have the Rage Claws soulmeld, which does what Diehard should have done.
That's Magic of Incarnum by the way. It's an interesting system.

What about something similar to Stand Still? Maybe add the effects of that feat to every AoO?
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008, 01:02:10 PM »
Thanks, I'm terrible at deciphering abreviations.

Is there anyway to get it at a reasonable price? I'm serious here. I don't expect I'll use it enough to want to spend $40 or something.

And Stand Still sounds very fitting. Defenders still don't get enough attacks of opportunity, but maybe that's a game system problem.

No sign that its a Psionic Only feat, so wouldn't hurt to just give it as a bonus.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

veekie

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2008, 01:09:41 PM »
Well, a Diehard based off rageclaws eh,  specifically for DDs?

Diehard
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 01:12:24 PM by veekie »
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[/spoiler]

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Re: Improved Dwarven Defender
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2008, 01:14:09 PM »
And my version of the Dwarven Defender (using some of the ideas we've come up with):

Requirements: BAB +5, Shield Specialization, Active Shield Defense

HD: d12

BAB: Full

Saves: Good Fort and Will

Class Skills (4+Int per level): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim

1.  Defensive Stance 1/enc, Defender's Fury (15)
2.  Bulwark of Defense, Diehard 1/day
3.  Defender's Fury (20)
4.  May I Have Your Attention, Diehard 2/day
5.  Defender's Fury (25)
6.  Defensive Stance 2/enc, Diehard 3/day
7.  Defender's Fury (30)
8.  LOOK AT ME!, Diehard 4/day
9.  Defender's Fury (35)
10. Diehard 5/day, Impossible to Kill

Defensive Stance - Once per encounter a Dwarven Defender can enter a Defensive Stance as a free action (and can enter it even on others' turns). During this stance the Defender gains a +2 bonus to AC, +4 if fighting defensively, and +6 if using the total defense action. Furthermore he gains a +4 bonus to Str, temporary hitpoints equal to his Con modifier times his HD, and SR 11+HD+Con modifier. While in this stance a Dwarven Defender can't move more than his base movement speed without ending the stance. This stance lasts 5 rounds.

At 6th level the bonuses to AC go to +4, +6, and +8 respectively, and the bonus to Str increases to +8. At 6th level a Dwarven Defender can enter this stance twice each encounter (allowing him to break out of the stance if necessary and be able to re-enter at a more advantageous position).

Defender's Fury - Whenever a Dwarven Defender's ally would be dealt damage add that amount of damage to a pool called his Fury pool. For every 10 points in his Fury pool he gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls, and for every 5 points in his pool he gains a +1 bonus to damage. This pool gradually depletes. At the end of any turn during which the Dwarven Defender got a bonus to attack or damage from this ability reduce the amount in the pool by 5. At the end of any turn during which none of his allies are dealt damage reduce the amount in the pool by 10. At 1st level a Dwarven Defender's Fury pool can only hold 15 points, but this increases by 5 at every odd level thereafter to a maximum of 35.

Bulwark of Defense - As Knight.

Diehard - Dwarven Defenders gain Diehard as a bonus feat (as mine). Dwarven Defenders gain additional re-rolls against the effects specified in the Diehard feat as the table indicates above.

May I Have Your Attention - Whenever a Dwarven Defender attacks with a melee attack, whether he hits or misses, the attacked creature must succeed on a Will save (10+1/2 character level+Dwarven Defender's Con modifier) or attack the Defender with a melee attack on its next turn (incapable of other actions). If the Defender's attack hits increase the save DC by 4.

LOOK AT ME! - As a standard action, once per encounter, a Dwarven Defender may unleash a battle cry subjecting all enemies that can see or hear him within 100ft to a Will save (10+1/2 character level+Defender's Con modifier). Any creature that fails its save must attack the Defender with a melee attack on it's next turn (or spend it's turn getting as close to the Defender as possible), and for the next 1d4 turns.

Impossible to Kill - As long as a Dwarven Defender is in Defensive Stance he cannot be killed by hitpoint damage. Whenever his negative hitpoint total would be low enough for him to die he can instead make a Fort or Will save (whichever he chooses, DC 15+1/2 his character level). If he succeeds he remains standing and able to fight until he next dealt damage. Increase the save DC of this save by +3 for each save he has previously succeeded against.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2008, 01:22:09 PM by bkdubs123 »