Improved Dwarven Defender

[Elennsar]

That might work.

How to adjust this and add in the feat so it is a little less front heavy?

Even with weak feats, getting a bunch of feats at 1st level is very tempting. And I do not want to deal with "I'll dip in." anymore than is unavoidable in a system that doesn't rule out dipping.

Prestige classes are meant to be at least a fairly serious part of your character's identity, so taking multiple levels should be well worth it.

Bkdubs123:
I would drop the Strength bonus for Defensive Stance. If it needs the bite, let's give it a bonus to clobber people in general, but going defensive shouldn't be necessary to get it.

[SiggyDevil]

I would make Defensive Stance just that. A stance.
Whenever X condition is fulfilled (dwarf makes no more than 1 move action each round) they get Y and Z bonuses.

Also needs counter attack capabilities similar to Robilar's Gambit, Protection from Arrows spell effect, and Spell Resistance (or boosted benefit from dwarf bonus to saves against spells), or else they'll just be a walking wall.. prime target for skirmishers, spellcasters, and archers.

[Psychic Robot]

Some partially organized thoughts:

4+Int Skill points, add Fighter class skills to list instead of as DMG.

Requirements (feats): Armor Proficiency (heavy), Diehard, Endurance, Formation Expert. This replaces the requirements in the DMG.

1) A Dwarven defender may move up to his base movement each round while in a Defensive Stance. He does not gain a bonus to Strength, and must fight defensively (or use Combat Expertise) or use Total Defense while in his Defensive Stance. Otherwise, this ability works as written.

2) Dwarven Defenders recieve a bonus to saves versus fear equal to their Defender level.

3) A Dwarven Defender may, at 3rd level and above, add the higher of his Constitution or Wisdom modifier to Will saves.

4) A Dwarven Defender may act normally when disabled. This ability applies from 1st level on.

5) A Dwarven defender recieves a bonus to AC equal to the higher of +2 when using Lock Shields, not +1. This applies from 1st level on.

6) At 8th level on, a Dwarven defender who becomes exhausted is instead merely fatigued, and fatigue has no effect. This also eliminates the winded state after using a Defensive Stance.

Constructive comments and suggestions welcome. This write up is written on the assumption that wizards and other spellcasters are toned down in power, and is intended to be at tier 3 (to use JaronK's tier scale), though it will probably additional features to keep up offensively, as the class (even without the adjustment to Defensive Stance) lacks bite. I am unsure of how high a bonus to give it, however, as my experience in play does not include mid-high teen levels.

Bonus vs. fear equal to level?  Con to Will saves?  Just make the class immune to fear and be done with it.  Drop the crap feats--namely, Diehard/Endurance.  Give the class those as bonus feats.  Give the class bonus HP, too.

[Elennsar]

Immunity to fear is a tad strong, but its not necessarily a bad idea.

My reasoning for "bonus" (and this applies to the Con to Will as well)...a fair a number of DD will be entering the class as Fighters.

Fighters should be harder to scare and Dwarven fighters should wind up with tougher Will saves than average.

As for bonus hp: It already has (officially) a d12. Does it need more?

As for crap feats: I'd like to make both of those useful feats rather than dump them from the game, but that's a seperate process from the class. Still, leaning in favor of those suggesting it get Diehard as a bonus feat (at first level? When?)

[Psychic Robot]

No, it probably doesn't need more.  But I like it having more.  MOAR HP

[SiggyDevil]

Moar HP! MOAR HP!

MOARRRRRRRR

The class needs like d20s for HD.

[Elennsar]

 

Okay. Seriously. Why does it need more than a d10?

No, I'm not against better, but does it need better?

Because frankly, I think it should have hit points equal to the its Constitution score times character level, myself. 

That is, each level adds that many hit points. So at 1st level in DD, you gain 6 (or 8, depending on the BAB requirement) x Con score, 2nd level in DD is 7 (or 9) x Con score...

[SiggyDevil]

A relatively stationary class always needs moar HP.

Using CON score rather than any class bonus might work, but when you factor in CON boosting items it gets weird.

[Elennsar]

Um, for the idea that Dwarven Defenders should have a bonus to resist being tripped/bull rushed, two questions before I request a test by someone who feels they can build an efficient one.

1) How big a bonus?

2) When does it start? And is this a "bonus by being a Dwarven Defender at all" (possibly improved by being in DS), or "bonus only while in Defensive Stance"

[bkdubs123]

Well, there's a 3rd level Stone Dragon stance that gives +10 to resist those things. Roots of the Mountain. So, I'd say it can probably start at +4 to resist, just by being a DD, increase to +6 by entering Defensive Stance, and then maybe increase to like... +8/+16? +10/+20? At the end of 10 levels.

[Elennsar]

Sounds good to me! Who feels like making a reasonably optimized but not flawless (Since that will give a false impression of how good it is) sample Defender for us to playtest?

[bkdubs123]

What? With what class? I've seen lots of ideas bumped around here, but absolutely no finalized mechanics... 

[Elennsar]

True. Um, give me a few minutes and I'll post a-unless-I-overlooked-something write up.

[bkdubs123]

True. Um, give me a few minutes and I'll post a-unless-I-overlooked-something write up.

 

I'll give it a go after you're done.

[Elennsar]

Well, right now, we just have yours. I could piece something else together, but that seems the only one with "when it gets what" all lined up.

So let's try that.

Gah, way to go brain, overlook the fact we didn't have a prepared "this is what it looks like now".

So, let's see what we get. This isn't about balance in terms of dipping, just about if it can handle challenges of its CR if you pursue it all the way.

[bkdubs123]

15th level or what?

[Elennsar]

Yeah, let's start there and work our way down. If it can handle 15th level, we know that maxing it out is worth the investment.

After that, start at 6th (level 1 in DD) and see how it goes, I think.

[bkdubs123]

Okay, here we go:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=90573

He stays in Thicket of Blades basically all the time combining it's power with Bulwark of Defense and LOOK AT ME! to great effect. With Active Shield Specialization he can fight defensively or even take a full defense action while being able to his attacks of opportunity and to get the higher bonuses to Defensive Stance. Furious Counterstrike, Defender's Fury, Power Attack, and Devoted Bulwark all combine to allow the Defender to deal very solid damage while being able to absorb many many attacks. The adjustment to Diehard and the extra rerolls given by the class give it extra survivability against magical attacks. Faith Unswerving allows the Defender to be even more mobile than he would otherwise be allowed. All in the character seems very solid, and the numbers it can put up are quite competitive with monsters near his CR. In fact it might be too strong. 105 temporary hitpoints, SR 33, the ability to repeatedly spam the One Last Strike ability of Faith Unswerving for hugely damaging attacks.

[Elennsar]

Now, what's a good CR 16 challenge....

After I find something (MM), let's put this to the test in practice.

[Mister_Sinister]

The Hypertext D20 SRD is your friend!

Planetar, Cornugon, Nightwalker, to name my favourites. If you're doing this as a proper Same Game challenge at level 16, I also recommend the following:

- A tag-team of Nalfeshnees

- A tag-team of

- A [url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#stormGiant]Storm Giant and his two drinking buddies

- A 14th level necromancer and his Devourer pets.

That should do it.