D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Midnight_v]

Can we make the DR mechanic of adamantine work?  Perhaps it just needs to be increased.  Also, for realisim, perhaps instead of DR X/-, it should be DR X/adamantine.  It makes sense that an adamantine weapon should punch through adamantine armor just as easiliy as a steel weapon punches thorugh steel armor.

How about something like this:
 - light: DR 5/adamantine
 - medium: DR 10/adamantine
 - heavy: DR 15/adamantine

What are your thoughts on this?  Too much?  Not even on the right track (i.e. we need a different approach)?  If we do go this route, how should we price it?

How about DRX/ adamantine where X is your armorclass bonus. Or half. There's been a lot of discussion of Armor bonus as DR anyway. Lets merge ideas, see where it gets us.
We can add something esle after we decide if it works. Also Keep the idea that it doesn't decrease your movement speed or whatever. Adamantine is lighter but stronger than steel? Fuck it its magic metal anyway real life rules don't have to apply to it. Wolverines 'unbreakable bones, and claws"

It doesn't fix half plate to better than full plate though, but also check out the OA "Great armor"  It gets 7 ac and 2 dex.
I think the idea is to customize and armor type for each dexterity amount.
If you focus on making halfplate as good as full plate as an example we can deduce what exactly needs to be done on that topic.
Look at half-plate vs full plate, they made it worse in everyway.
It should have been like the great armor +7/+2 and had a less spell chance failureand weigh less and thus have a lesser Acp. W...t... h... balanced only by the fact that it costs 60% less which matters till you can afford full plate and then everyone upgrades.
Armor has to scale at every level equally in all things. on the table.
Low to high.

Hide should actually be light and incur  lower spell chance failure that chainmail or give +5 to ac + 4 to dex in any case we could keep all the armors if we just fixed the chart to scalle properly. . .

All shiled shuold give a miss chance in addtion to the ac bonus being increased by 1 for all shields.

Sorry this is such a glop trying to get mmy ideas down quickly,gotta get back to studying.

[RobbyPants]

Midnight_V, the latest version of armor I'm thinking about using replaces the PHB armor.  Basically, I wanted three types of armor (leather, mail, and plate) with two categories each: light and full.  This creates six unique armors, and the fluff can be left to the players.  Basically, a full suit covers the bulk of your body, and a light suit focuses primarily on your torso. 

Also notice that the AC and max Dex of all light armors add up to +8, +9 for medium, and +10 for heavy.  This might need tweaking, but I think it could be an improvement.

My latest version:
[spoiler]Several people have suggested droping specific armors and making three types (light, medium, and heavy).  How about six types?  We could have light and full versions of leather, mail, and plate.  I think this gives us a bit more to work with, but still keeps things simple.  Here's one implamentation:


Light Armors

Type            AC  Dex  ACP  ASF
_____________________________________________
Light leather   +2  +6   -0   10%
Light mail      +4  +4   -2   20%

Medium Armors*

Type             AC  Dex  ACP  ASF
_____________________________________________   
Full leather     +4  +5   -2   20%
Full mail        +5  +4   -3   25% 
Light plate      +6  +3   -4   30%

Heavy Armors**

Type         AC  Dex  ACP  ASF
_____________________________________________   
Full plate   +9  +1   -6   40%   

*The penalty for movement in medium armor is that your run speed is x3 instead of x4
**The penalty for movement in heavy armor is both your run speed is x3 instead of x4 and your speed drops depending on your base speed (40 to 30, 30 to 20, 20 to 15).[/spoiler]

[Midnight_v]

Shit okay... that is prettygood.

Hey did you ever notice that a wizard using all still spells
can walk around in full plate and never suffer Acane spell chance failure?
Pg 122 of the Phb.

"if a spell lacks a somantic coponent it can be cast without ASf"
Still spell
+
Full plate
+

PROFIT!

[Elennsar]

Does the game really suffer that badly from a wizard wearing full plate?

Of all the things that worry me about what a wizard determined to break game balance over his knee can do, that he could wear armor is the least of them.

[Midnight_v]

Does the game really suffer that badly from a wizard wearing full plate?

Of all the things that worry me about what a wizard determined to break game balance over his knee can do, that he could wear armor is the least of them.

No. Not at all. Hell apparently they can!
I had just never noticed that is all... so I brought it up, see if anybody else noticed.

I personally can't wait to game now and be the wizard in the iron mask... I am iron man. Good Times.

[RobbyPants]

Does the game really suffer that badly from a wizard wearing full plate?

I don' think it's a problem.  Any way you do it comes with a cost.

Trying to do it with all Still spells means that you've lost your highest level spells.

[Sunic_Flames]

I'm having the adamantine argument with someone else. No one cares if you have DR 3/- if they do 4 more damage to you due to basic PA anyways. You take more damage, and are slower. Therefore you fail.

If adamantine weapons bypass adamantine armor... that makes the DR even more pointless since the weapons are cheaper than armor, and cheap enough so that you might as well make your main weapon out of it anyways as a safeguard against asshat DMs.

In summary, adamantine weapons are worth using before or after. Adamantine armor would be made of even more Suck and Fail.

Why do adamantine weapons work? Cheap for the benefit, and the only reason you would ever want anything else is material based DR, which seeing as you need a weapon golfbag to take advantage of that, and you lose out on damage anyways via going that route... Yeah.

Why does adamantine armor fail? It does absolutely nothing unique to be worth the cost both in gold, and over not having mithril.

[Kuroimaken]

So what -can- we do to make adamantine really unique, here? DR obviously doesn't seem like it'll be worth it unless it's in copious amounts.

[RobbyPants]

I'm having the adamantine argument with someone else. No one cares if you have DR 3/- if they do 4 more damage to you due to basic PA anyways. You take more damage, and are slower. Therefore you fail.

I agree that the mobility kills you.  What do you think of the version I posted last page?  It's basically an upgrade of mithril.

Of course, then people would never wear mithril once they can affored adamantine, so I might just be out of the pan and into the fire.  The problem is it seems so hard to compare the mobility gained form mithril to any reasonable defense you could gain from adamantine.

[Midnight_v]

Give good really good Dr and unimpeded movement. Both metals have it then adamantine is lighter but interfers with spell casting more.
Good stuff.

Oh and a thought about shields.. I think shield should all give a miss chance in additon to ac.
And/Or all the shield ac should increase by 1.

[RobbyPants]

Give good really good Dr and unimpeded movement. Both metals have it then adamantine is lighter but interfers with spell casting more.
Good stuff.

So what are you thinking?  Leave mithril as-is in the DMG?  Treat adamantine as one category lighter and give a greater degree of DR X/adamantine?

Do note that if mithril ends up with a max dex notabely higher than mithril, the AC boost will prevent more damage on average than the DR of adamantine will unless the DR gets insanely high.

Oh and a thought about shields.. I think shield should all give a miss chance in additon to ac.
And/Or all the shield ac should increase by 1.

Would you leave bucklers at 1 to make them different from a light shield?  Otherwise, the only real difference is if you can bash or not or if you can use a weapon in your off hand.

As for a miss chance, that mechanic works fine in some games, but I'm not sure what I think about in D&D.  Perhaps you could blow an AoO to block an attack?  Make an opposed roll at your highest BAB to block the attack.

[Elennsar]

I would say that mithral (Mithril is Tolkien's metal...D&D spells it with an A. Nitpicking, I know) as the DMG would work, and adamantine...

How about granting +1 to AC (per armor level, so +3 for heavy armor) and DR 5/adamantine per armor level (DR 15 for heavy)?

As for shields...

Buckler: +1
Small: +2 (May block, blow an AOO)
Large: +4 (May block, blow an AOO)
Tower: Cover.

[veekie]

Looks to me like increasing adamantine's DR to a 5,10,15 penetrated by adamantine weapons would make it viable enough to be used. Adamantine weapons, while cheaper than armors, don't show up as often vs players, and so the DR works pretty well against most monstrous foes(MM monsters don't tend to pack adamantine as standard weapons either).

As for shields, I'm with increased ACs for light and heavy shields, a blocking mechanic complicates combat somewhat, best restricted to a feat, enhancement or maneuver type of ability.

[Elennsar]

I wouldn't disagree. But only those types of shields are both big enough and manueverable enough to block with, in any case.

[RobbyPants]

I would say that mithral (Mithril is Tolkien's metal...D&D spells it with an A. Nitpicking, I know) as the DMG would work,

I know.  Still, I see this as the same as grey-gray, color-colour, honor-honour.  Besides, it's a made-up word for a made-up metal.

and adamantine...

How about granting +1 to AC (per armor level, so +3 for heavy armor) and DR 5/adamantine per armor level (DR 15 for heavy)?

That's kind of what I thought earlier, but Sunic brings up the good point that people might ditch protection for mobility.  This is a bit hard to quantify, and I feel you might have to go seriously overboard before people would be willing to drop their speed by ten feet for the protection.  Do note, that under my current system, you don't drop your base speed until heavy now (medium just lowers your sprint multiplier), so this would only apply to heavy armors.

Also, if the max Dex for mithril is two higher than adamantine, than a mithril light armor would actually have a better AC than a light adamantine armor.  Medium would tie, and you would only net one point better AC with heavy adamantine armor.  Should we either conisder a higher number (+2 / +4 / +6, or +2 / +3 / +4) to close this gap, or give a higher max Dex to adamantine?

I'm not saying I'm unwilling to have adamantine slow you down, but we really need to think about the cost-benifit of the two.  At the end of the day, people are going to choose what will help them the most.  If mithril is still better than adamaintine, then that's what they'll choose.  Do you think a slightly better AC for adamantine will do this?

[Kuroimaken]

I believe a significant boost to both AC and DR would help close the gap, here. That's the whole point of adamantine, isn't it? Being tough as nails?

[RobbyPants]

Okay, just to look at some figures:

Lets say we write up mithril per the DMG, and we'll do adamantine as Elennsar last suggested, but we'll increase the AC bonus by one (so +2 / +3 / +4 instead).  How much should adamantine armor cost?

Anyway, here is what the armors would look like with these stats.


Light Armors

Type                   AC  Dex  ACP  ASF
_____________________________________________
Adamantine light mail  +6   +4   -2  20%
Mithril full mail      +5   +6   -0  15%
Mithril light mail     +4   +6   -0  10%
Mithril light plate    +6   +5   -1  20%

Medium Armors*

Type                   AC  Dex  ACP  ASF
_____________________________________________
Adamantine full mail   +8   +4   -3  25%
Adamantine light plate +9   +3   -4  30%
Mithril full plate     +9   +3   -3  30%

Heavy Armors**

Type                   AC  Dex  ACP  ASF
_____________________________________________
Adamantine full plate  +13  +1   -6  40%

*The penalty for movement in medium armor is that your run speed is x3 instead of x4
**The penalty for movement in heavy armor is both your run speed is x3 instead of x4 and your speed drops depending on your base speed (40 to 30, 30 to 20, 20 to 15).


------------

So, basically, it looks like the total ACs match up fairly well, if we compare the adamantine bonus to the max Dex of mithril.  Of course, mithril comes out a bit ahead for ACP and ASF%, but adamantine will have the DR.

[Elennsar]

I would wear it. Probably only for medium or heavy armor, but then, the reason I'd wear mithral is to ensure that my armor is as light as possible.

Besides, Max dex requires some effort to reach. I'm not saying it is impossible, but for "a fighter" who doesn't focus on being Dexy, adamantine is probably a better idea, even if mechanically it is six of one and half a dozen the other in terms of AC if your Dex keeps up.

As for made up spellings: Ja, I'm just a compulsive nitpicker.

[veekie]

Hmm, definitely looks wearable, though I think the mithril light armors could use a bit more max dex myself. After all dex users have to work for it, and dodging better with a greater investment should be alright.

[Kuroimaken]

Hmm, definitely looks wearable, though I think the mithril light armors could use a bit more max dex myself. After all dex users have to work for it, and dodging better with a greater investment should be alright.

I dunno about that, I think they're getting a pretty good bang for their buck already...