D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

I'm not saying you can't (relatively) freely multiclassing. But a paladin or monk is devoted to the Path that being a monk or paladin (fluffwise) states. Being a monk/fighter may well be very much on the Path. Being a monk/rogue may not. (Some monks may disagree! That's not the point, some will agree) So a monk or paladin cannot multiclass into something that isn't "part of the Path" without leaving said Path. What qualifies might be individual character or by organization or both.  Note: "The Lord" is used because I can't come up with a generic god-for-paladins name.

Example (paladin)

A paladin wants to learn more about combat. He takes fighter levels. This is good because being a better fighter is related to things paladins do. He does whatever it takes to multiclass and advances in pure combat skill. So long as he is true to the Lord, he is on the path.

Example (monk)

A monk wishes he had sneak attack. He takes rogue levels. However, because rogue levels are part of the world that he is supposedly trying to escape, this is bad. He has gone off the path. He will not forget what he has learned, but the doors of the temple will be shut to him.

Now, there are some monks who would have no problem with taking rogue levels. This is not to forbid monk/rogues! Simply to forbid monks from straying from their discipline (with whatever exactly that entails).

Example (Paladin)

A paladin wants to be a battle sorcerer. This is bad because arcane magic is prohibited as a corrupting force (this is a house rule, not a proposal as a general rule!). He says fuck you to that. He takes levels in sorcerer. He is now falling. He is off the path. His paladin abilities that are gifts from the Lord disappear until he atones and vows never to use arcane magic again.


I hope this clears it up.

[Midnight_v]

2) Because seriously, someone being a Paladin is a path that would demand a great deal of focus and concentration on that path (though not necessarily the class by that name).

What about being a cleric?  Aren't they even more devout to their deity?  What about a wizard?  All the fluff you see on the class involves ass loads of study and patience.

I can see the arguement that it takes "less focus" to be a rogue, barbarian, or fighter, but I don't see what makes a monk or paladin so special that you can't freely multiclass.

Sometimes I think thats what it is... fetishism. Especially paladin fetishim run rampant. There's no real reason for those no multiclass resetrictions. I mean  it just causes people to Get what they want and muticlass and then prestige out. Ultimately irrelavant and a punishment for playing those classes. Since they're not "special" i.e. more powerful than anyone esle its really a bad trade.
Hmmm... the only reason I can think of is "because it has been that way" so I mean we could "grandfather" it in but its not particularly good from a mechanical standpoint.
We have a lot of ideas floating though and that is good.

[Elennsar]

If the classes are evenly powerful, there's no "punishment" in being unable to multiclass as freely. If they're not, there's no reason to take levels in the weak classes anyway.

Mechanics should support fluff. Fluffwise, paladins and monks are commited and focused to the paths that they have chosen to walk. They have chosen to dedicate their lives entirely to Something.

As such, what they can do should be limited to some extent.

Honestly, I think that classes in general should have a certain amount of that. If you're playing a Barbarian, you're stating that you're a barbarian...a warrior relying on strength, ferocity, and natural talent.

I don't think we should ban multiclassing, but saying "I want to play a guy who has the fury of a barbarian and the sophisticated combat training of a fighter" is sort of missing how the two are meant to be two seperate approaches to the same problem.

I've nothing against the concept of a barbarian (small B) learning how to channel his rage as part of a more disciplined fighting style, but "so that the combination is greater than either alone", if that works, means that there's no reason not to multiclass out of Barbarian (as in the class).

And that would be a bad thing.

[Midnight_v]

I don't think we should ban multiclassing, but saying "I want to play a guy who has the fury of a barbarian and the sophisticated combat training of a fighter" is sort of missing how the two are meant to be two seperate approaches to the same problem.

Ghengis Khan.
for the win.
I guess in the end, you're just a distraction to getting things done for me. . . You keep saying the same things over and over and don't actually come up with any ideas.  :rolleyes Goodbye.

[Eldariel]

[Orion]

This is one of those moments where the fluff/crunch distinction is really important. Give me any combination of classes, at least Core classes, and I can probably come up with a decent explanation for a character that might have that combination. Multi-classing is one of those things that grants players a lot of leeway to build their own, creative combinations.

[Midnight_v]

MonkClass FeaturesAll of the following are class features of the monk.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities. [/left]
AC Bonus (Ex)
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 every odd level thereafter (+2 at 7tth, +3 at 9th, and +4 at 11th level ad so on).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Flurry of Blows (Ex) as phb

Improved UnarmedStrike: as phb

Enlightened Strike (G. Stunning Fist / Immobilizing strike)Bonus Feats:
2nd level, she may select a bonus feat, drawn from the list of fighter feats
6th level, she may a bonus feat, drawn from the list of fighter feats

Evasion (Ex)
At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Combat Insight (Ex): starting at 3rd level and at every 3 levels thereafter the monk gains a +1 insight bonus on attacks of opportunity, Disarm, Grapple and Trip attempts. Additionally, whenever the monk succeeds at such checks, it may make a free attack againt her foe (at her highest attack bonus). This attack isn't considered an attack of opportunity.


Fast Movement (Ex)
At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Still Mind (Ex)
A monk of 3rd level through discipline and focus can postpone the effects of spells and effects from the school of enchantment. The monk must make his save as per normal however you may delay the actual effects for a number of rounds equal to your wisdom modifier or 4 which ever is lower at which point you are affected normally.


Ki Strike (Su)Slow Fall (Ex)Purity of Body (Ex)
At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all poisons and diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases.

Storm of Blows: At 6th level, as a full-round action, monks can move between flurry attacks. The can move their base speed (the equivalent of one move action), and make one full Flurry attack. They must move at least 5 feet before and 5 feat after their first and last attacks.

Wholeness of Body (Su)
At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to 4 times the monks level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses. Addtionally the monk may instead spend 5 points from this pool to heal 1 point of ability damage or 20 points to remove a negative level.

Ki Reinforce (Sp): starting at 8th level, three times per day, the monk can make a Concentration check as a swift action, then inbue her attacks with force damage, based on the check result, as below:

Check result........Bonus Damage
15 or below.........Total + 1d6 Force Damage
16-25.................Total +2d6 Force Damage
26-30.................Total +3d6 Force Damage
31-35.................Total +4d6 Force Damage
36+....................Total +5d6 Force Damage + the opponent saves or is knocked prone from the impact.

This ability lasts for 1 minute.

Improved Evasion (Ex)Diamond Body (Su)
At 11t level, the monk, gains immunity to the following conditions: Blindness, Deafness, exastion, fatigue, Nauseated, Petrified, stunned, sickened,  and can ignore the effects of being staggered or unconscious (effectively gaining the die hard feat but without allowing it to qual for other feats)

Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per point of wisdom modifier per day. Her caster level for this effect is one-half her monk level (rounded down).

Diamond Soul (Ex)Quivering Palm (Su)Timeless Body (Ex)
Upon attaining 17th level, a monk no longer takes penalties to her ability scores for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties that she has already taken, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the monk still dies of old age when her time is up. Damage reduction increases by two

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)
A monk of 17th level or higher can speak with any living creature.

Empty Body (Su)
At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.

Perfect Self (su):Dr 10/Chaotic and silver.
Enlightend One
You may radiate an immaculate light to a range of 60ft at will. This grants you total concealment and lasts 4 rounds. This is a visual effect that is not bypassed by true seeing. However, creatures who do not use sight (oozes and the such) are unaffected by this power This effect may only be dispelled by a  darkness spell of 7th level or higher. You may use this ability each day a number or times equal to your wisdom modifier.

Awe of perfection: You are under the permanent effects of a Sanctuary spell DC = 10 + monk level + wisdom
Constructs, Elementals, Mindless undead, and other outsiders are immune to this effect, or any other creature that does not have an age maximum age limit (or that is defined as immortal) are immune to this effect. (this does however affect exceptionally long lived creatures Dragons, elves, elan etc...
Immunity to Magic (Ex)
You are immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Though you may supress this ability as a full round action, and the supression lasts for one round (untill just before your next turn.) This replaces the dimond soul ability
Walk the path: You may plane shift (as the spell) twice perday as a supernatural ability. You are immune to the harmful enviormnetal effects (temperature extremes, lack of oxygen) This ability takes one full round to use.

[Orion]

That looks pretty good. A few things:

Enlightened Strike: I'm not sure why I'd ever using Immobilising Fist given then Stunning Fist immobilises already (doesn't it?).

Slow Fall: Doesn't specify how much the Monk can reduce the distance she falls. It just says 20' and then it improves "with her Monk level." Do you mean 10' per level? 20'?

Ki Reinforce: On a check result of 36+, what does the victim have to roll to avoid being knocked prone? Also, I assume he/she/it lands prone in the same square, as opposed to a knockback effect, yes? Also, the name of this ability is a bit, I don't know, bland. I can't think of anything better, but if anyone has a better name...?

Quivering Palm: It's a dumb name and it always has been. I know we can't change it just... damn what a dumb name.

What are Enlightened One, Awe of Perfection, Immunity to Magic, and Walk The Path supposed to be? Are they secondary effects off of Perfect Self? I don't understand where they fit in.

[Midnight_v]

That looks pretty good. A few things:

Enlightened Strike: I'm not sure why I'd ever using Immobilising Fist given then Stunning Fist immobilises already (doesn't it?).

Slow Fall: Doesn't specify how much the Monk can reduce the distance she falls. It just says 20' and then it improves "with her Monk level." Do you mean 10' per level? 20'?

Ki Reinforce: On a check result of 36+, what does the victim have to roll to avoid being knocked prone? Also, I assume he/she/it lands prone in the same square, as opposed to a knockback effect, yes? Also, the name of this ability is a bit, I don't know, bland. I can't think of anything better, but if anyone has a better name...?

Quivering Palm: It's a dumb name and it always has been. I know we can't change it just... damn what a dumb name.

What are Enlightened One, Awe of Perfection, Immunity to Magic, and Walk The Path supposed to be? Are they secondary effects off of Perfect Self? I don't understand where they fit in.

1. Because there are things immune to stunning. Being worthless it bad.
2. Noted, it's meant to follow the reguarr progression till 10th where you get to play croutching tiger etc (thanx)
3. Hmm... Dc=10+1/2 level + wis. Ill add it. (Thanx again)
4. Quivering palm... I guess we could call it Whatever we want really... Make a suggestion

Perfect self... yeah those are the effects of perfect self as related to the monk.
Enlightened One,
Awe of Perfection,
Immunity to Magic
and Walk The Path
Are simply more abilities that come from you transcedence to being a true outsider.

[Kuroimaken]

Quivering Palm: It's a dumb name and it always has been. I know we can't change it just... damn what a dumb name.

My personal favorite: Palm of Destruction.

Also, the name of this ability is a bit, I don't know, bland. I can't think of anything better, but if anyone has a better name...?

Soul Fist sound better to you?

[Elennsar]

1) And of course, all abilities must be usable at all times. This is not necessarily a good idea. Sure, a monk shouldn't feel that he or she can do nothing against a given opponent any more than anyone else, but should a monk really be able to (effectively) stun a golem, say?

4) Hand of Death or Soul Sundering Strike are two names coming to mind for me.

[RobbyPants]

Quivering Palm: It's a dumb name and it always has been. I know we can't change it just... damn what a dumb name.

Touch of Eternal Sleep/Slumber?

[Risada]

Quivering Palm: It's a dumb name and it always has been. I know we can't change it just... damn what a dumb name.

Soul Breaker? Fist of Ruin?

[Orion]

I believe the Anglicised version of "quivering palm" is "dim mak," and given that "ki" is already a Japanese word (for a Chinese archetype... sigh...), I don't see a problem with bringing in a non-English word.

But I'd vote for "Hand of Death" if we're using an English expression.

[RobbyPants]

Here'a version of the fighter fix I posted earlier combined with several aspects of JaronK's fighter fix.  Some of the rewording on Foil and Shake it Off came from him and Orion.  I'm still al little iffy about balancing Shake it Off.  Any help would be appreciated.  Let me know if the wording is confusing.

Progression:

1   Bonus Feat, Weapon Aptitude
2   Bonus Feat
3   Art of War
4   Bonus Feat   
5   Battlefield Recon   
6   Bonus Feat
7   Shake it Off   
8   Bonus Feat
9   Foil   
10  Bonus Feat
11  True Grit
12  Bonus Feat
13  Improved Shake it Off
14  Bonus Feat
15  Improved Foil   
16  Bonus Feat
17  Array of Stunts
18  Bonus Feat
19  Greater Shake it Off
20  Bonus Feat

Weapon Aptitude
As the Warblade ability.


Art of War (JaronK)
Fighters train extensively in the basic arts of combat.  At 3rd level the fighter gains a +1 bonus to opposed Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, Sunder, Grapple, Feint, and Overrun checks.  This bonus increases by +1 every three fighter levels thereafter.

   
Battlefield Recon (JaronK)
Fighters battle against a great many foes, and learn to identify them quickly.  A Fighter of 5th level or higher may add his class level to all Knowledge checks to identify creatures, and always counts as trained in any such knowledge check.


Shake it Off
At 7th level, the fighter gains the ability to shake off various impeding effects.  As a full round action, a fighter can attempt remove one of the following effects: blind, confused, dazzled, deaf, exhausted, fatigued, shaken, or sickened.  To remove the effect, the fighter is allowed to roll another saving throw, at the original DC of the effect. 

If the effect was caused by a spell that did not allow a saving throw, the fighter may attempt a Fort save against a normal DC for a spell or spell-like ability of that level.  Any other condition that does not allow a save cannot be removed with this ability.


Foil
At level 9, a fighter can attempt to foil an opponent's action, causing it to fail, as an immediate action against an adjacent opponent.  A fighter may foil another attack, a spell (even if cast defenisvely), or a skill check.  To resolve the foil, the fighter makes an opposed attack roll using his full base attack bonus and all modifiers he'd normally add.  If the fighter wins this opposed roll, the action fails. 

If foiling an attack, the opponents opposes the fighter with his attack roll.  If foiling a spell, the caster opposes the fighter with a Concentration check.  If foiling a skill check, the opponent opposes the fighter with the appropriate skill check.


True Grit (JaronK)
Fighters must learn to tough it out under fire.  A Fighter of 11th level or higher may add his constitution bonus to any save he has to make.


Improved Shake it Off
At 13th level, a fighter can use shake it off to remove one of the following effects: cowering, dazed, fascinated, frightened, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, and stunned.  A fighter may use this ability despite the condition preventing him from using full round actions.


Improved Foil   
At 15th level, the fighter can use his foil ability at a greater range with a melee or ranged weapon.  If using a melee weapon, the fighter can use foil against any opponent within his reach.  If using a ranged weapon, the fighter can use foil with 30 feet or the weapon's first range increment, whichever is greater.  All range penalties (if any) apply to the opposed roll.


Array of Stunts
At 17th level the fighter gains an extra swift action each round.  This extra action can also be used as an immediate action.


Greater Shake it Off
At 19th level a fighter may use Shake it Off and Improved Shake if Off as a move action.

[Midnight_v]

Okay. Okay. Good. Not as good as I would have liked but it seems decent and playable... I really like the knowledge thing before. Hmm... now I have to compare:
From Page 1.
SquirrelLord's Fighter
Design Statement
The fighter should be a tactical battlefield commander who can control the flow of combat. Unlike the barbarian, he excels through skill and tactics, not just by repeatedly hitting it with a big weapon. And while he's capable of dealing some punishing blows, his bigger contribution to the party is controlling when and where a monster strikes.
Notes:
Abilities which aren't described below are exactly as described in 3.P.0.3.
Some inspiration was gained from the Races of War fighter by K and Frank Trollman. However, the world is apparently unready for that, and what inspiration was gained has been toned down quite a bit. But credit where credit is due, and those familiar with Races of War will surely recognize the source of some abilities.
This is a draft and isn't yet playtested extensively.
The Fighter
 "I've seen this type of Xornling rush before, its a distraction, and the real threat will come from the skies"
1 Bonus Feat
2 Bonus Feat, Bravery(taken from paizo)
3 Surprise Lunge, Armor Training
4 Bonus Feat
5 Expert Defender, Weapon Training
6 Bonus Feat
7 Parry, Armor Training
8 Bonus Feat
9 Rapid Reactions, Weapon Training
10 Bonus Feat
11 Tactical Genius, Armor Training
12 Bonus Feat
13 Perfect Moment, Weapon Training
14 Bonus Feat
15 Ranged Parry, Armor Training
16 Bonus Feat
17 Stunning Combo, Weapon Training
18 Bonus Feat
19 Armor Mastery
20 Bonus Feat, Weapon Mastery
Skills: 6+int mod/level. Add Knowledge(Dungeoneering), Knowledge(Geography), Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty), Perception, Acrobatics, and Diplomacy
Surprise Lunge  (ex): As an immediate action the Fighter may treat his threatened area as 5' farther than usual, and any interrupted action which would then trigger an attack of opportunity does so. The fighter moves 5' such that the creature now triggering this AoO would be within his normal threat range, and then resolves the attack of opportunity. His threatened area then returns to normal.
Expert Defender (ex): All squares the fighter threatens are treated as difficult terrain by enemy creatures.
Parry (ex): As an immediate action a fighter may make an attack against any creature he threatens in response to an action they are about to take. If he deals damage with this attack that action is thwarted and lost.
Rapid Reactions (ex): Whenever the fighter gets an attack of opportunity he may also take a 5' step either before or after making the AoO.
Tactical Genius (ex): The fighter receives an extra immediate action each turn.
Perfect Moment (ex): The fighter can take a full round action as a readied action.
Ranged Parry (ex): The fighter may Parry against any creature within 30' so long as he has a ranged weapon in or immediately at hand (drawing a thrown weapon from a belt is ok, stringing your bow is not). In all other respects this ability works exactly like Parry. The creature must be within range when it starts the action - entering range after the action is started doesn't allow the use of this ability.
Stunning Combo (ex): Whenever the fighter successfully deals damage with an attack of opportunity he may also immediately perform a combat maneuver of his choice against the same opponent. The Fighter gains a +4 bonus on this maneuver due to surprise.
Armor Mastery (ex): as 3.P.0.3 except the fighter gains DR 10/-
Weapon Mastery (ex): When wielding a weapon that belongs to a group with which he has weapon training the fighter may take a full-round action as a standard action. In return he loses the benefit of Tactical Genius until the start of his next turn
--------------------------------------
Hmm... One thing I'm desperate to add is "Surprise lunge" to that revision.
They both have a mechanic for extra actions, which is good
Both have the "FOIL/RangedFoil" action
Again I think Jaronk wins the knowledge check game with his Battlefield recon (excellent naming by the way)
 Ignoring the paizo weapon and armor mastery and adding in the Art of war. . . . better.
Stunning combo needs a new name but I think could find a spot
True grit & Shake it off? Damn. Just Damn.
-------------------------------------
Do you mind if I try to amalgamate the two?
If not do you think you could work surprise lunge into the above build.
Either way, that is some excellent work. Wow.

edit 2. A lot of it is the same build switched around at levels. True Grit would replace paizo's bravery. I love that its not dipable, in this case.. Its odd that it lets him add his con twice to fortitude saves.
edit 3. Foil is more fair because it gets an opposed roll. It also makes me think "rapier or Epee" but hey what ever, parry is worded better I think because you actually "hit them" and deal damage with the attack. Which makes more sense in a way but *shrug*
Its amazing how close the two builds are...

[Eldariel]

I think Foil should be 11th level, switching places with True Grit. It's a very

[Midnight_v]

Either way, 20th level needs some awesome ability. For example, toss him a reach increment. I think he could get two reach increments, actually - reach is a very powerful thing and very "in flavour" for a Fighter. It makes sense that a more experienced Fighter can affect opponents further away by using weapons in a more optimal way. For example, 10 and 20 could get a 5' reach increment to the character's natural reach. This also sets a precedent for Epic Fighters to get a reach increment.

Like Real reach?
So surprise lunge just isn't enough, huh?

It is interesting I'd like to work that in. It'd be awsome to instead increas the distance of the lunge. Very thematic looking.
Please consider.

[Eldariel]

Surprise Lunge is good enough, although I'd grant an Improved Surprise Lunge in the progression too for increased reach. Alternatively, Surprise Lunge with a real reach increment coming later. That way you could normally act 5' beyond normal and if willing, Surprise Lunge another 5'.

[Midnight_v]

Surprise Lunge is good enough, although I'd grant an Improved Surprise Lunge in the progression too for increased reach. Alternatively, Surprise Lunge with a real reach increment coming later. That way you could normally act 5' beyond normal and if willing, Surprise Lunge another 5'.

Great!
Well I got a lot of college the next couple days, but if you'll do the work on that, I'll come back and add it to the combined version of the two. Laterz guys.
M_v