Author Topic: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 250716 times)

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DavidWL

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1440 on: December 26, 2008, 07:42:36 PM »
stuff

Robby, what do you think about the below modifications?  Mobilty options are always sexy.  And, all things considered, can be reasonably balanced relative to the level. 
_____________________________
Air
  • 1st - Featherfall (self only) at will as a spell-like ability, immediate action.  CL = class level of the granting class.
  • 5th - Gain Scorn Earth (see Elocator) at 5th level.
  • 10th - Gain a fly speed (good maneuverability) equal to base land speed + 10.
  • 15th - Gain a fly speed (perfect maneuverability) equal to base land speed + 30 feet (max double base land speed) at level 15.
  • 20th - Lord of Air: Attune Form (plane of air) - permanent ability, can rebuke creatures with the air subtype (note: this ability can not fuel powers fueled by turn undead), creatures of the air subtype are 1 degree more friendly than normal. Can plane-shift to or from the plane of air and the material plane once per day as a supernatural ability.

_____________________________
Earth
  • 1st - burrow 5'
  • 5th - burrow 20'
  • 10th- earth glide 30'
  • 15th - earth glide 50'
  • 20th - Lord of Earth: Attune Form (plane of earth) - permanent ability, can rebuke creatures with the earth subtype (note: this ability can not fuel powers fueled by turn undead), creatures of the earth subtype are 1 degree more friendly than normal.  Can plane-shift to or from the plane of earth and the material plane once per day as a supernatural ability.

_____________________________
War
  • 1st - Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).  The level of the class that grants this domain -2 stacks with fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats that require levels of fighter.
  • 5th - Weapon Specialization (deity's favored weapon)
  • 10th - Greater Weapon Focus ( deity's favored weapon)
  • 15th - Greater Weapon Specialization (deitie's favored weapon)
  • 20th - Bonus fighter feat

_____________________________
Animal
  • 1st - can use handle animal as a diplomacy effect on animals, handle animal is a class skill
  • 5th - can speak with animals at will
  • 10th - can use the suggestion spell at will (animals only)
  • 15th – can use the mass suggestion spell at will (animals only)


Also - I really like the idea that a domain power is (virtually) the same power that just scales up.  That's why I modified 1st level powers as I did.  I think the capstones should possibly be a bit more awesome (without being overpowered ...).  Your thoughts?

Best,
David
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 03:16:25 AM by DavidWL »
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Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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[/spoiler]
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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1441 on: December 27, 2008, 10:47:31 AM »
Good ideas for domains. Healing Domain seems to be stepping a little on the Radiant Servant of Pelor's toes, though.
True.  Do note that RSoP levels wouldn't advance the Healing domain's powers either (I guess further stepping on its toes :p).

I guess I can see what you all think, but I'd rather get the core classes hammered out first, and hit the PrCs later.

____

David,

Featherfall at 1st level for Air is a nice touch.  I hadn't considered burrow or earth glide for Earth, but it is an option.  I'll admit the natural armor bonus is bland.  Do note that they already can turn/rebuke elementals per the PHB.  At this point, I hadn't removed any of the PHB domain powers. 

I can see stepping up the War domain bonus feats to every five levels.  If we go that route, I might conisder something like Weapon Supremacy for 20th level.

Your animal ideas are interesting.  I was thinking about putting Summon Nature's Ally on the list for each level for the animal domain, and granting standard-action castings, and other summoning buffs.  Still, your approach might work too.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

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veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1442 on: December 27, 2008, 04:16:12 PM »
Ok, this took a good bit longer than I expected, but heres a sample product, alignment domains complete only so far, it's well past midnight here :P
[spoiler=revised cleric]
(revised?)Cleric

AlignmentHit Die
d8

Class SkillsSkill points at 1st level
(4+Int)x4

Skill points at each additional level
4+Int

Level       BABFortRefWillSpecial                          Spells per Day
                                                           
0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
  1st        +0  +0 +0  +2   Turn or rebuke undead, Domains
3   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  2nd        +1  +0 +0  +3               Domain Improvement
4   2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  3rd        +2  +1 +1  +3                                 
4   2   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  4th        +3  +1 +1  +4      Domain Improvement(Acolyte)
5   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  5th        +3  +1 +1  +4                                 
5   3   2   1   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  6th        +4  +2 +2  +5               Domain Improvement
5   3   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  7th        +5  +2 +2  +5                                 
6   4   3   2   1   -   -   -   -   -  
  8th     +6/+1  +2 +2  +6       Domain Improvement(Deacon)
6   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -   -  
  9th     +6/+1  +3 +3  +6                                 
6   4   4   3   2   1   -   -   -   -  
10th     +7/+2  +3 +3  +7               Domain Improvement
6   4   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -  
11th     +8/+3  +3 +3  +7                                 
6   5   4   4   3   2   1   -   -   -  
12th     +9/+4  +4 +4  +8       Domain Improvement(Bishop)
6   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -   -  
13th     +9/+4  +4 +4  +8                                 
6   5   5   4   4   3   2   1   -   -  
14th    +10/+5  +4 +4  +9               Domain Improvement
6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -  
15th +11/+6/+1  +5 +5  +9                                 
6   5   5   5   4   4   3   2   1   -  
16th +12/+7/+2  +5 +5 +10Domain Improvement(Archimandrite)
6   5   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   -  
17th +12/+7/+2  +5 +5 +10                                 
6   5   5   5   5   4   4   3   2   1  
18th +13/+8/+3  +6 +6 +11               Domain Improvement
6   5   5   5   5   4   4   3   3   2  
19th +14/+9/+4  +6 +6 +11                                 
6   5   5   5   5   5   4   4   3   3  
20th+15/+10/+5  +6 +6 +12       Domain Improvement(Avatar)
6   5   5   5   5   5   4   4   4   4  

Class Features
All the following are class features of the cleric

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, their deity's favored weapon, light armor, medium armor, light shields and heavy shields. Clerics without a favored deity choose a martial weapon which represents the concept the worship.

Aura(Ex)Spells

Good clerics(or neutral clerics of a good deity) automatically know all cure spells(a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in it's name), while evil clerics(or neutral clerics of an evil deity), automatically know all inflict spells(an inflict spell is any spell with "inflict" in it's name). These do not count against the cleric's spells known. A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can choose either the good or evil option. Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice determines whether the cleric turns or bolsters undead.

Each level, the cleric can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the cleric loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as the spell exchanged.

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can replenish his spells remaining. A cleric may cast any spell he knows.

Deity and DomainsAligned SpellsTurn or Bolster Undead(Su)
Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol

 A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead bolsters such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric gains cure or inflict spells.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

Domain Improvement
At every even level, a cleric may choose to gain access to a new domain associated with the deity(or concept) he worships or improve one of his existing domains by one step(in the order of Initate(the default), Acolyte, Deacon, Bishop, Archimandrite and Avatar(highest)). The cleric gains access to a new tier every 4 levels, starting with Acolyte at 4th level, Deacon at 8th, Bishop at 12th, Archimandrite at 16th and Avatar at 20th. A domain at each step has all the powers granted by previous steps in that domain.

Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description) or converts to another deity. If he converts, his spells and domains are replaced by those appropriate to his new deity.

Domain
Initiate free
Acolyte 4th
Deacon 8th
Bishop 12th
Archimandrite 16th
Avatar 20th

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Revised domains]
Good Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of pure Good
Initiate Detect Good The Initate of Good automatically detects good as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of good. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.
Acolyte Holy Magic All spells the Acolyte of Good casts gains the [Good] descriptor.
Deacon Holy Protection The Deacon of Good's faith wards him. He gains DR 10/evil, which improves to 15/evil, 20/evil and 25/evil when he gains Bishop of Good, Archimandrite of Good and Avatar of Good status respectively.
Bishop Angelic Wings The Bishop of Good gains feathered wings like an angel from his devotion. He gains a fly speed of 60ft at a manueverbility of Good. He may summon or dismiss the wings as a free action. If he already has a fly speed, it improves to good manueverbility and gains a +10ft bonus to it when the wings are visible.
Archimandrite Righteous Light The Archimandrite of Good can create a bolt of holy power. At will, as a standard action, he can fire a 60ft line of holy power, dealing 1d6 holy damage per cleric level and evil creatures are shaken. Creatures that are neither good nor evil aligned recieve 1d4 holy damage instead and are not shaken, while good creatures are unaffected by this bolt. A Will save halves the damage and negates the shaken effect.
Avatar Holy TransfigurationEvil Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of pure Evil
Initiate Detect Evil The Initate of Evil automatically detects evil as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of evil. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.
Acolyte Unholy Magic All spells the Acolyte of Evil casts gains the [Evil] descriptor.
Deacon Unholy Protection The Deacon of Evil's faith wards him. He gains DR 10/good, which improves to 15/good, 20/good and 25/good when he gains Bishop of Evil, Archimandrite of Evil and Avatar of Evil status respectively.
Bishop Daemonic Wings The Bishop of Evil gains bat-like wings like an fiend from his devotion. He gains a fly speed of 80ft at a manueverbility of Average. He may summon or dismiss the wings as a free action. If he already has a fly speed, it improves to average manueverbility and gains a +20ft bonus when the wings are visible.
Archimandrite Profane Burst The Archimandrite of Evil can create a blast of disgusting unholy power. At will, as a standard action, he can fire a 30ft cone of unholy power, dealing 1d6 unholy damage per cleric level and sickening good creatures. Creatures that are neither good nor evil aligned recieve 1d4 unholy damage instead and are not sickened, while evil creatures are unaffected by this bolt. A Will save halves the damage and negates the sickening effect.
Avatar Unholy Descent The Avatar of Evil is transformed into an exemplar of Evil. His type becomes Outsider(Evil, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses, except the Good subtype which is lost in the tranformation. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other outsiders the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains low light vision and Darkvision out to 60ft.
He gains a Corrupting Aura(Su). Attacks made against nonevil creatures within 20ft inflict additional profane damage equal to the Avatar of Evil's cleric level. Nonevil creatures within this aura gain a -4 profane penalty to AC and saving throws against evil aligned attacks(such as that from an Unholy weapon or an evil outsider) or effects with the [Evil] descriptor. The Avatar of Evil can raise or lower this effect as a free action once per round.

Law Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of perfect Order
Initiate Detect Law The Initate of Law automatically detects law as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of law. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.
Acolyte Axiomatic Magic All spells the Acolyte of Law casts gains the [Law] descriptor.
Deacon Axiomatic Protection The Deacon of Law's faith wards him. He gains DR 10/chaos, which improves to 15/chaos, 20/chaos and 25/chaos when he gains Bishop of Law, Archimandrite of Law and Avatar of Law status respectively.
Bishop Presence of Order The Bishop of Order imposes a field of absolute order around him. At will,as a full round action, the Bishop of Order denies his enemies the freedom to act, all non-lawful creatures within 20ft are dazed for 2 rounds and all chaotic creatures within 20ft recieve 1d6 axiomatic damage per cleric level in addition to being dazed. A Will save halves the damage and negates the dazing. An Archimandrite of Order increases the area to 25ft and an Avatar of Order increases it to 30ft. Lawful creatures are unaffected by this ability.
Archimandrite Enduring Order The Archimandrite of Law brings the lasting power of Order to magic. All spells with the [Law] descriptor cast within 20ft of the Archimandrite of Law recieve the benefit of the Extend Spell metamagic. The Archimandrite of Law has the Extend Spell feat for the purposes of qualifying for feats and classes, and may replace the Extend Spell feat with any other feat he qualifies for if he already possesses the metamagic feat.
Avatar Unity of Law The Avatar of Law is transformed into an exemplar of Law. His type becomes Outsider(Law, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses, except the Chaos subtype which is lost in the tranformation. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other outsiders the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains low light vision and Darkvision out to 60ft.
He gains United in Mind(Su). Any creatures the Avatar of Law designates within 20ft can telepathically communicate with each other and gain a +5 insight bonus to AC and attack rolls while they are within this area. The Avatar of Law may designate any number of creatures as a swift action. They lose the benefits of United in Mind if they move out of the affected area.

Chaos Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of infinite Chaos
Initiate Detect Chaos The Initate of Chaos automatically detects chaos as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of chaos. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.
Acolyte Anarchic Magic All spells the Acolyte of Chaos casts gains the [Law] descriptor.
Deacon Anarchic Protection The Deacon of Chaos' faith wards him. He gains DR 10/law, which improves to 15/law, 20/law and 25/law when he gains Bishop of Chaos, Archimandrite of Chaos and Avatar of Chaos status respectively.
Bishop Anarchic Influence The Bishop of Chaos can create a pulse of anarchic energies. At will, as a standard action, the Bishop of Chaos can target a creature within 30ft with a barrage of confusion. Nonchaotic creatures are confused for 1 round, lawful creatures recieve 1d6 anarchic damage in addition to being confused. A will saves halves the damage and negates the confusion. The range of this ability improves to 60ft for an Archimandrite of Chaos and 120ft for an Avatar of Chaos. Chaotic creatures are unaffected by this ability.
Archimandrite Reach of Chaos The Archimandrite of Chaos grant's Chaos' reach to magic. All spells with the [Chaos] descriptor cast within 20ft of the Archimandrite of Chaos recieve the benefit of the Enlarge Spell metamagic. The Archimandrite of Chaos has the Enlarge Spell feat for the purposes of qualifying for feats and classes, and may replace the Enlarge Spell feat with any other feat he qualifies for if he already possesses the metamagic feat.
Avatar Anarchic Apotheosis The Avatar of Chaos is transformed into an exemplar of Chaos. His type becomes Outsider(Chaos, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses, except the Law subtype which is lost in the tranformation. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other outsiders the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains low light vision and Darkvision out to 60ft.
He gains Chaos Field(Su). The Avatar of Chaos is surrounded by a 10ft radius area of Raw Limbo. He automatically succeeds on unopposed control checks over Raw Limbo and gains a +4 bonus on opposed control checks. The area reverts to normal matter when it leaves the Chaos Field, but any changes caused by the Chaos Field remain.

[/spoiler]
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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Soda

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1443 on: December 27, 2008, 04:25:25 PM »
  • 1st - Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).  The level of the class that grants this domain -2 stacks with fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats that require levels of fighter.
The Weapon Focus line is fine, but I don't know if clerics should have access to any fighter only feats.

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1444 on: December 27, 2008, 04:59:15 PM »
  • 1st - Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).  The level of the class that grants this domain -2 stacks with fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats that require levels of fighter.
The Weapon Focus line is fine, but I don't know if clerics should have access to any fighter only feats.

Agreed... especially since they already so many more perks than the regular fighter does.
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[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1445 on: December 28, 2008, 01:14:27 AM »
  • 1st - Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).  The level of the class that grants this domain -2 stacks with fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats that require levels of fighter.
The Weapon Focus line is fine, but I don't know if clerics should have access to any fighter only feats.

Agreed... especially since they already so many more perks than the regular fighter does.
Different perks are the key here, not the same ones(especially not the ones we're cranking up for the fighter to be worth something at all).
Weapon focus/spec is ok(and plenty good for a baseline benefit), since it's really just flat number bonuses in disguise, but something like "Panoply of War(Su), Weapons wielded by the cleric gain a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage for every 4 cleric level he has" is better for a higher level power(it's the same as Greater Magic Weapon, and lasts about as long anyway)

Any opinions on what I crapped out so far?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

DavidWL

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1446 on: December 28, 2008, 09:45:13 AM »
In general, this has been my philosophy for designing domain powers:

  • They should be Interesting / cool - no powers which say +X to do Y.  No powers which say, "you can cast this spell once per day".  Instead, let me burrow, or control animals at will, etc.  I'd think the warlock should be a variant of a domain cleric.  (Lots of domains, little casting).

  • Because there should only be 1 scaling power, we should feel free to change the level 1 power.  For example, it is very hard to make the planning domain (grants extend as a bonus feat) scale well.  It starts out very powerful.  If we add any power, then it is too much.

  • The should (for the most part) be only one power which scales - it is much less powerful (overall) to give one power (flight) which starts weak (feather fall) and ends up strong.  If you give many different powers, then the Cleric is powered up even more.  This is something I'm trying to avoid.

  • Finally, the level 20 ability (or capstone ability, if it comes earlier) should be pretty cool.


I think if we could collectively decide on some guidelines for the abilities granted by domains, that would help things a lot.

Your thoughts?

Best,
David

« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 10:04:27 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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DavidWL

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1447 on: December 28, 2008, 09:59:24 AM »
I can see stepping up the War domain bonus feats to every five levels.  If we go that route, I might consider something like Weapon Supremacy for 20th level.

And

  • 1st - Weapon Focus (deity's favored weapon).  The level of the class that grants this domain -2 stacks with fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for feats that require levels of fighter.
The Weapon Focus line is fine, but I don't know if clerics should have access to any fighter only feats.

Agreed... especially since they already so many more perks than the regular fighter does.

Fundamentally, +2 to hit and +4 to damage at 20th level just isn't that good.  Or cool.  (Actually, it is semi-cool, because it grants bonus feats, which I think are fun).  Although there should probably be a section on "how domains work", which specifies default caster level, default save DC, etc.  In this section, I'd also like to note that domain feats can't be changed.  (No psychic reformation of domain feats, retraining, etc.).

That said, I don't think it is too powerful to give them access to fighter feats (at a slower rate).  Keep in mind that the cleric has to spend one of it's precious feat slots (of which it has far fewer than the fighter) to take said fighter feats.  I just don't see this as putting game balance at risk.  Can you show me an example where it would?  An example when it would be better for the cleric to spend 2 feats on fighter feats instead of on Extend and Persistent? 

EDIT:  I just realized that the way feats were changed for fighters, this really was a more significant power-up than I realized.  I take back what I said above.

Also, my thought for the 20th level feat was that it could be weapon supremacy, as long as the cleric spend his 18th level feat on weapon mastery.  (As it is currently worded).  Otherwise they wouldn't meet the pre-reqs.

That said, I'm not against changing the working of the war domain - I just want it to be cool.  Aka, do something other than just grant bonuses to damage / attack. 

For example, saying, "The cleric can meditate, and he can get a +1 weapon bonus (or ability) for every 6 levels of cleric (round up).  He can choose this bonus when he chooses spells, and it lasts until the next time he chooses spells.  It effects all attacks/defenses".  For example, you could choose to get a +4 to hit and damage bonus at level 19, but you could also choose that all of your attacks are axiomatic (+2) and bane [evil outsider] (+2).  Etc.

Your animal ideas are interesting.  I was thinking about putting Summon Nature's Ally on the list for each level for the animal domain, and granting standard-action castings, and other summoning buffs.  Still, your approach might work too.

I was just throwing something out there - and frankly, what I put out there was probably too weak at higher levels. 

My theme was, "the animal domain let's characters influence animals".  We could definitely go with other themes. I thought about also including dominate animal spells.  Also, I thought about a theme, "the animal domain lets the character change shape into an animal".

Your version, "the animal domain makes the character a better summoner of animals" is also valid  Throw up what you think would be a better version, and we can work on it!

Best,
David
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 11:40:24 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

DavidWL

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1448 on: December 28, 2008, 10:34:59 AM »
Any opinions on what I crapped out so far?

I like how you do the "Domain Improvement" to give more customizability.  It does require:
  • That domains are roughly of equivalent power for each step
  • That domains have roughly the same number of improvements
  • That domains have some reason to be selected at high levels instead of just for weak powers (for example, for increased spell access).


However, I do like it, and think we should adopt it.

I like that you included this: "Each level, the cleric can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows"

I also think that there should be fewer steps (4-5) instead of the 6 you have know.  Looking at the descriptions for the domains we have now, most of them have 4-5 levels of powers.

I like the slightly lower number of spells per day (no domain spells).

Let's adapt it, and see where things go!

Best,
David
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 10:55:50 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

DavidWL

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1449 on: December 28, 2008, 10:52:23 AM »
Any opinions on what I crapped out so far?

The domains are (IMO) too strong.  For example the Evil Domain:

Quote
Detect evil - at will, no concentration. 

This is too strong.  It makes mysteries, disguised bad guys, etc. very difficult.  Normally, this spell has a large cost (need to concentrate _and_ use a spell slot), so you can't spam it.  Especially for the "Evil Domain", which will automatically let you find bad guys.  Admittedly, you are a bag guy too, but that doesn't mean you can't turn them in for profit ...

Quote
DR 10/good, which improves to 15/good, 20/good and 25/good

This is incredibly powerful.  Few monsters of comparable CR will be able to do much damage to him in Melee.

Quote
He gains a fly speed of 80ft at a manueverbility of Average.

This is a nice extra perk ... at the level you gain it, it is strong.  This was the only benefit of the air domain power that Robby and I suggested at this level.  (Rather than the 3 you have so far).

Quote
At will, as a standard action, he can fire a 30ft cone of unholy power, dealing 1d6 unholy damage per cleric level and sickening good creatures. Creatures that are neither good nor evil aligned recieve 1d4 unholy damage instead and are not sickened, while evil creatures are unaffected by this bolt. A Will save halves the damage and negates the sickening effect.

This is strong, although not overpowered were it the only power.  Keep in mind that a cone can effect multiple people, so you are basically giving "fireball at will", harder to resist, lower range, slightly lower damage, added effect (sicken).

Weaker for Evil, stronger for good.

Quote
type becomes Outsider(Evil, Native), gains low light vision and Darkvision out to 60ft.

A nice perk at 20th level - perfectly fine.

Quote
He gains a Corrupting Aura(Su). Attacks made against nonevil creatures within 20ft inflict additional profane damage equal to the Avatar of Evil's cleric level.

This is strong ... +20 to damage from _all_ attacks?!  For all people!  For the evil domain, this is strong, for the good domain this is too much.

Quote
Nonevil creatures within this aura gain a -4 profane penalty to AC and saving throws against evil aligned attacks(such as that from an Unholy weapon or an evil outsider) or effects with the [Evil] descriptor. The Avatar of Evil can raise or lower this effect as a free action once per round.

For 20th level, this is fine, and sort of cool.

Overall, too strong:

However, when you take all of these powers together, it is much too strong.  I'd argue that a domain, at 20th level, should be worth something like:
  • 1-2 feats
  • one extended 9th level spell slot.


Best,
David
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 11:49:54 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1450 on: December 28, 2008, 11:39:52 AM »
When all your replies are a littany of "Too strong" I tend to think ... "this person clearly lacks objectivity" or "This person may not know what the hell they're talking about." But meh. I haven't had a chance to review them all in depth.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

DavidWL

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1451 on: December 28, 2008, 11:41:26 AM »
When all your replies are a littany of "Too strong" I tend to think ... "this person clearly lacks objectivity" or "This person may not know what the hell they're talking about." But meh. I haven't had a chance to review them all in depth.

Well, review the above in-depth, and we'll see if you disagree.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1452 on: December 28, 2008, 11:43:14 AM »
When all your replies are a littany of "Too strong" I tend to think ... "this person clearly lacks objectivity" or "This person may not know what the hell they're talking about." But meh. I haven't had a chance to review them all in depth.

Well, review the above in-depth, and we'll see if you disagree.

Best,
David
;) Fair enough.
Gimme a day. (Holidays you know)
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1453 on: December 28, 2008, 01:59:17 PM »
The 6 steps is a result of having a Domain Improvement at every even level(where the cleric does not gain a new spell level), with 1 fully developed domain and two at a lower level( Archmandrite+Initate, or Bishop+Acolyte or 2 Deacons). The 'costs' were the loss of automatic domain spell access(you must buy them with your spells known like any other spell), Heavy armor proficiency(which I can then grant to War/Protection at Initiate level), their domain spell slots and a good Fort save.

Well, most of the damage needs some reworking(designing from midnight to 4 AM? bad idea), but detecting their own alignment at will is more of a flavor power than something directly useful. Detecting opposed now, constantly active, makes for a more powerful effect.

I pegged gaining a strong alternate movement mode(flight, earth glide, but not swim), as a 12+ level appropriate effect. Characters have access to combat useful flight about 4 levels ago, so constant flight seemed fair enough.

As for the blasts, I'm pretty sure the damage is too high(as mentioned above). The 20th level power is a little on the strong side of course, as any given cleric can only have one of them(Avatar improvement is only available at 20th, and you only get one domain improvement at that level).

Still, feedback is welcome. More's the merrier.

EDIT: ideas for alternatives for the damage, make those powers /encounter, reduce the damage to 1d6+cleric level, reduce the damage to 1d6/domain tier(effectively 1d6/4 cleric level for your highest domain), reduce the damage to 1d6/3 cleric level
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 02:31:06 PM by veekie »
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I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1454 on: December 29, 2008, 12:29:55 PM »
Hopefully made the layout more readable with more line breaks, also added the 4 elemental domains, took an axe to the damage and did Animal while I was at it.
[spoiler=revised cleric]
(revised?)Cleric

AlignmentHit Die
d8

Class SkillsSkill points at 1st level
(4+Int)x4

Skill points at each additional level
4+Int

Level       BABFortRefWillSpecial                          Spells per Day
                                                           
0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
  1st        +0  +0 +0  +2   Turn or rebuke undead, Domains
3   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  2nd        +1  +0 +0  +3               Domain Improvement
4   2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  3rd        +2  +1 +1  +3                                 
4   2   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  4th        +3  +1 +1  +4      Domain Improvement(Acolyte)
5   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  5th        +3  +1 +1  +4                                 
5   3   2   1   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  6th        +4  +2 +2  +5               Domain Improvement
5   3   3   2   -   -   -   -   -   -  
  7th        +5  +2 +2  +5                                 
6   4   3   2   1   -   -   -   -   -  
  8th     +6/+1  +2 +2  +6       Domain Improvement(Deacon)
6   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -   -  
  9th     +6/+1  +3 +3  +6                                 
6   4   4   3   2   1   -   -   -   -  
10th     +7/+2  +3 +3  +7               Domain Improvement
6   4   4   3   3   2   -   -   -   -  
11th     +8/+3  +3 +3  +7                                 
6   5   4   4   3   2   1   -   -   -  
12th     +9/+4  +4 +4  +8       Domain Improvement(Bishop)
6   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -   -  
13th     +9/+4  +4 +4  +8                                 
6   5   5   4   4   3   2   1   -   -  
14th    +10/+5  +4 +4  +9               Domain Improvement
6   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   -   -  
15th +11/+6/+1  +5 +5  +9                                 
6   5   5   5   4   4   3   2   1   -  
16th +12/+7/+2  +5 +5 +10Domain Improvement(Archimandrite)
6   5   5   5   4   4   3   3   2   -  
17th +12/+7/+2  +5 +5 +10                                 
6   5   5   5   5   4   4   3   2   1  
18th +13/+8/+3  +6 +6 +11               Domain Improvement
6   5   5   5   5   4   4   3   3   2  
19th +14/+9/+4  +6 +6 +11                                 
6   5   5   5   5   5   4   4   3   3  
20th+15/+10/+5  +6 +6 +12       Domain Improvement(Avatar)
6   5   5   5   5   5   4   4   4   4  

Class Features
All the following are class features of the cleric

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, their deity's favored weapon, light armor, medium armor, light shields and heavy shields. Clerics without a favored deity choose a martial weapon which represents the concept the worship.

Aura(Ex)Spells

Good clerics(or neutral clerics of a good deity) automatically know all cure spells(a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in it's name), while evil clerics(or neutral clerics of an evil deity), automatically know all inflict spells(an inflict spell is any spell with "inflict" in it's name). These do not count against the cleric's spells known. A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can choose either the good or evil option. Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice determines whether the cleric turns or bolsters undead.

Each level, the cleric can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the cleric loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as the spell exchanged.

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can replenish his spells remaining. A cleric may cast any spell he knows.

Deity and DomainsAligned SpellsTurn or Bolster Undead(Su)
Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol

 A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead bolsters such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric gains cure or inflict spells.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

Domain Improvement
At every even level, a cleric may choose to gain access to a new domain associated with the deity(or concept) he worships or improve one of his existing domains by one step(in the order of Initate(the default), Acolyte, Deacon, Bishop, Archimandrite and Avatar(highest)). The cleric gains access to a new tier every 4 levels, starting with Acolyte at 4th level, Deacon at 8th, Bishop at 12th, Archimandrite at 16th and Avatar at 20th. A domain at each step has all the powers granted by previous steps in that domain.

Ex-Clerics

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description) or converts to another deity. If he converts, his spells and domains are replaced by those appropriate to his new deity.

Domain
Initiate free
Acolyte 4th
Deacon 8th
Bishop 12th
Archimandrite 16th
Avatar 20th

[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Revised domains]
Good Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of pure Good

Initiate Detect Good The Initate of Good automatically detects good as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of good. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.

Acolyte Holy Magic All spells the Acolyte of Good casts gains the [Good] descriptor.

Deacon Holy Protection The Deacon of Good's faith wards him. He gains DR 10/evil, which improves to 15/evil, 20/evil and 25/evil when he gains Bishop of Good, Archimandrite of Good and Avatar of Good status respectively.

Bishop Angelic Wings The Bishop of Good gains feathered wings like an angel from his devotion. He gains a fly speed of 60ft at a manueverbility of Good. He may summon or dismiss the wings as a free action. If he already has a fly speed, it improves to good manueverbility and gains a +10ft bonus to it when the wings are visible.

Archimandrite Righteous Light The Archimandrite of Good can create a bolt of holy power. At will, as a standard action, he can fire a 60ft line of holy power, dealing 1d6 holy damage per 3 cleric levels and evil creatures are shaken. Creatures that are neither good nor evil aligned recieve 1d4 holy damage instead and are not shaken, while good creatures are unaffected by this bolt. A Will save(10+1/2 cleric level+wis) halves the damage and negates the shaken effect.

Avatar Holy TransfigurationEvil Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of pure Evil

Initiate Detect Evil The Initate of Evil automatically detects evil as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of evil. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.

Acolyte Unholy Magic All spells the Acolyte of Evil casts gains the [Evil] descriptor.

Deacon Unholy Protection The Deacon of Evil's faith wards him. He gains DR 10/good, which improves to 15/good, 20/good and 25/good when he gains Bishop of Evil, Archimandrite of Evil and Avatar of Evil status respectively.

Bishop Daemonic Wings The Bishop of Evil gains bat-like wings like an fiend from his devotion. He gains a fly speed of 80ft at a manueverbility of Average. He may summon or dismiss the wings as a free action. If he already has a fly speed, it improves to average manueverbility and gains a +20ft bonus when the wings are visible.
Archimandrite Profane Burst The Archimandrite of Evil can create a blast of disgusting unholy power. At will, as a standard action, he can fire a 30ft cone of unholy power, dealing 1d6 unholy damage per 3 cleric levels and sickening good creatures. Creatures that are neither good nor evil aligned recieve 1d4 unholy damage instead and are not sickened, while evil creatures are unaffected by this bolt. A Will save(10+1/2 cleric level+wis) halves the damage and negates the sickening effect.

Avatar Unholy Descent The Avatar of Evil is transformed into an exemplar of Evil. His type becomes Outsider(Evil, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses, except the Good subtype which is lost in the tranformation. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other outsiders the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains low light vision and Darkvision out to 60ft.
He gains a Corrupting Aura(Su). Attacks made against nonevil creatures within 20ft inflict additional profane damage equal to the Avatar of Evil's cleric level. Nonevil creatures within this aura gain a -4 profane penalty to AC and saving throws against evil aligned attacks(such as that from an Unholy weapon or an evil outsider) or effects with the [Evil] descriptor. The Avatar of Evil can raise or lower this effect as a free action once per round.


Law Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of perfect Order

Initiate Detect Law The Initate of Law automatically detects law as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of law. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.

Acolyte Axiomatic Magic All spells the Acolyte of Law casts gains the [Law] descriptor.

Deacon Axiomatic Protection The Deacon of Law's faith wards him. He gains DR 10/chaos, which improves to 15/chaos, 20/chaos and 25/chaos when he gains Bishop of Law, Archimandrite of Law and Avatar of Law status respectively.

Bishop Presence of Order The Bishop of Order imposes a field of absolute order around him. At will,as a full round action, the Bishop of Order denies his enemies the freedom to act, all non-lawful creatures within 20ft are dazed for 2 rounds and all chaotic creatures within 20ft recieve 1d6 axiomatic damage per 3 cleric levels in addition to being dazed. A Will save(10+1/2 cleric level+wis) halves the damage and negates the dazing. An Archimandrite of Order increases the area to 25ft and an Avatar of Order increases it to 30ft. Lawful creatures are unaffected by this ability.

Archimandrite Enduring Order The Archimandrite of Law brings the lasting power of Order to magic. All spells with the [Law] descriptor cast within 20ft of the Archimandrite of Law recieve the benefit of the Extend Spell metamagic. The Archimandrite of Law has the Extend Spell feat for the purposes of qualifying for feats and classes, and may replace the Extend Spell feat with any other feat he qualifies for if he already possesses the metamagic feat.

Avatar Unity of Law The Avatar of Law is transformed into an exemplar of Law. His type becomes Outsider(Law, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses, except the Chaos subtype which is lost in the tranformation. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other outsiders the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains low light vision and Darkvision out to 60ft.

He gains United in Mind(Su). Any creatures the Avatar of Law designates within 20ft can telepathically communicate with each other and gain a +5 insight bonus to AC and attack rolls while they are within this area. The Avatar of Law may designate any number of creatures as a swift action. They lose the benefits of United in Mind if they move out of the affected area.


Chaos Domain
You are dedicated to the concept of infinite Chaos

Initiate Detect Chaos The Initate of Chaos automatically detects chaos as per the spell, except no concentration is needed to sense the presence or absence of chaos. The Initate must concentrate normally for more information.

Acolyte Anarchic Magic All spells the Acolyte of Chaos casts gains the [Law] descriptor.

Deacon Anarchic Protection The Deacon of Chaos' faith wards him. He gains DR 10/law, which improves to 15/law, 20/law and 25/law when he gains Bishop of Chaos, Archimandrite of Chaos and Avatar of Chaos status respectively.

Bishop Anarchic Influence The Bishop of Chaos can create a pulse of anarchic energies. At will, as a standard action, the Bishop of Chaos can target a creature within 30ft with a barrage of confusion. Nonchaotic creatures are confused for 1 round, lawful creatures recieve 1d6 anarchic damage per 3 cleric levels in addition to being confused. A will save(10+1/2 cleric level+wis) halves the damage and negates the confusion. The range of this ability improves to 60ft for an Archimandrite of Chaos and 120ft for an Avatar of Chaos. Chaotic creatures are unaffected by this ability.

Archimandrite Reach of Chaos The Archimandrite of Chaos grant's Chaos' reach to magic. All spells with the [Chaos] descriptor cast within 20ft of the Archimandrite of Chaos recieve the benefit of the Enlarge Spell metamagic. The Archimandrite of Chaos has the Enlarge Spell feat for the purposes of qualifying for feats and classes, and may replace the Enlarge Spell feat with any other feat he qualifies for if he already possesses the metamagic feat.

Avatar Anarchic Apotheosis The Avatar of Chaos is transformed into an exemplar of Chaos. His type becomes Outsider(Chaos, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses, except the Law subtype which is lost in the tranformation. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other outsiders the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains low light vision and Darkvision out to 60ft.
He gains Chaos Field(Su). The Avatar of Chaos is surrounded by a 10ft radius area of Raw Limbo. He automatically succeeds on unopposed control checks over Raw Limbo and gains a +4 bonus on opposed control checks. The area reverts to normal matter when it leaves the Chaos Field, but any changes caused by the Chaos Field remain. This effect can be supressed and resumed as a swift action.


Air Domain
Air, Life's breath

Initiate Feather Fall The Initiate of Air is protected by the winds. He takes no damage from falling.

Acolyte Voice of Winds The Acolyte of Air has command over the powers of Air. He can bolster, rebuke and command creatures with the [Air] subtype as an evil cleric bolsters undead. He can also turn or destroy creatures with the [Earth] subtype as a good cleric turns undead. This counts as a use of Turn Undead or Bolster Undead, and is improved by feats and abilities that affect those abilities.

Deacon Blast of wind The Deacon of Air can hurl a blast of wind. At will, as a standard action, he can fire a blast of air that deals 1d4 subdual damage per 3 cleric levels and pushes the target creature in the direction desired. Treat this effect as a Bull Rush with a bonus to the Strength check equal to the Deacon's Wisdom modifier by a Large creature. The opponent is pushed to the full distance allowed. This is a ranged touch attack with a range of 150ft. This improves to 200ft for a Bishop of Air, 250ft for an Archimandrite of Air and 300ft for an Avatar of Air. The effective size of the Bull Rush also improves to Huge for a Bishop of Air, Gargantuan for an Archimandrite of Air and Colossal for an Avatar of Air.
Bishop Gift of Winds Lofted by powerful winds, the Bishop of Air gains a fly speed equal to twice his base land speed at perfect maneuverbility. This improves to triple his base land speed at Archimandrite of Air and quadruple his base land speed at Avatar of Air. If he already has a fly speed, it improves to perfect manueverbility, and uses his normal fly speed instead of his land speed for determining his fly speed with this effect.

Archimandrite Whirling Winds The Archimandrite of Air can create a short lived area of violent winds. This effect is a 40ft high cylinder with a 20ft radius. Creatures within the area are knocked prone and subjected to a disarm attack against each item they are wearing at an attack bonus equal to the Archimadrite's cleric level. A successful reflex save(10+1/2 cleric level+wis) negates both the effects, this attack can disarm well secured items as if the target was pinned.

Avatar Wind's Own The Avatar of Air is transformed into an elemental being of Air. His type becomes Elemental(Air, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other elementals the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains Darkvision out to 60ft and is immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, critical hits and flanking.
He gains the benefits of Control Winds, centered on the Avatar of Air at a caster level equal to his cleric level. He must take a standard action to make any changes in wind strength and/or direction.


Earth Domain
Earth, Mountains' Spine

Initiate Earthen Sense The Initate of Earth's attunement to Earth grants him tremorsense with a range of 10ft. This improves to 20ft for an Acolyte of Earth, 30ft for a Deacon of Earth, 60ft for a Bishop of Earth, 120ft for an Archmandrite of Earth and 240ft for an Avatar of Earth.

Acolyte Voice of Earth The Acolyte of Earth has command over the powers of Earth. He can bolster, rebuke and command creatures with the [Earth] subtype as an evil cleric bolsters undead. He can also turn or destroy creatures with the [Air] subtype as a good cleric turns undead. This counts as a use of Turn Undead or Bolster Undead, and is improved by feats and abilities that affect those abilities.

Deacon Flesh of Stone The Deacon of Earth gains DR 5/adamantine. This improves to 10/adamantine for a Bishop of Earth, 15/adamantine for an Archmandrite of Earth and 20/adamantine for an Avatar of Earth. He also gains a 1d6 slam attack if he is Medium sized(larger and smaller Deacons of Earth adjust their damage appropriately) and his natural weapons are treated as adamantine for the purpose of damage reduction.

Bishop Earth Glide the Bishop of Earth gains Earth Glide, as per the Earth Elemental special ability.

Archimandrite Clutch of Stone The Archmandrite of Earth can summon the earth itself to seize and crush his enemies. Once per encounter, the Archmandrite of Earth can create a field of crushing earth. This ability affects a 30ft area of earth or stone of at least an inch thick within 300ft. Every creature within this area must make a grapple check, opposed by the grapple check of the earth. Treat the earth attacking a particular target as a Gargantuan creature with a base attack bonus equal to the Archmandrite of Earth's cleric level and a Strength score equal to his Wisdom score. The earth has a reach of 30ft and is immune to all types of damage.
Once the earth grapples an opponent, it may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 3d6+str points of bludgeoning damage. The tentacles continue to crush the opponent until the effect ends or the opponent escapes.
The crushing earth lasts 1 round per cleric level of the Archimandrite of Earth.

Avatar Born of Earth The Avatar of Earth is transformed into an elemental being of Earth. His type becomes Elemental(Earth, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other elementals the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains Darkvision out to 60ft and is immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, critical hits and flanking.
He can use Wall of Stone as per the spell at a caster level equal to his cleric level, as a standard action, at will.


Water Domain
Water, Mother of Life

Initate Water Breathing The power of Water protects the Initate of Water, he can breath water as if it were air.

Acolyte Voice of Water The Acolyte of Water has command over the powers of Water. He can bolster, rebuke and command creatures with the [Water] subtype as an evil cleric bolsters undead. He can also turn or destroy creatures with the [Fire] subtype as a good cleric turns undead. This counts as a use of Turn Undead or Bolster Undead, and is improved by feats and abilities that affect those abilities.

Deacon Embrace of Waves The Acolyte of Water can grant his water breathing ability to any number of creatures within 30ft radius as a free action. He also gains a swim speed equal to his base land speed. This improves to twice his base land speed at Bishop of Water, triple his base land speed at Archimandrite of Water and quadruple his base land speed at Avatar of Water. If he already has a swim speed, he uses it in place of his base land speed for the swim speed of this ability.

Bishop Hammer of the Sea You can create a huge wave of water. Hammer of the Sea creates a 30ft cone shaped burst of water that slams into everything within it's area. The water deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage per 3 cleric levels of the Bishop of Water to everything within the burst. Affected creatures and objects are subjected to a bull rush attack with a strength bonus equal to the Bishop of Water's wisdom modifier. A reflex save halves the damage and negates the bull rush attack. The size of the burst increases to a 60ft cone, the damage improves to 1d6 per cleric level and the bull rush attack gains a +4 bonus to the opposed check if the Bishop of Water is standing in a large body of water.
This effect extinguishes nonmagical, open flames within it's area.

Archimandrite Body of Water The Archimandrite of Water can turn himself into a humanoid form of water and back as a standard action. In this form, he gains concealment and can pass through any gap liquid water could, but all his movement modes other than swim are reduced to 5ft. His equipment melds with his form and can no longer be activated, but he continues to benefit from the passive effects of any magical equipment he wears. When the Archimandrite of Water is completely immersed in water, he gains total concealment instead of concealment in this form. Spells requiring a verbal, somatic, material or focus component cannot be cast in this form.

Avatar One with Water The Avatar of Water is transformed into an elemental being of Water. His type becomes Elemental(Water, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other elementals the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains Darkvision out to 60ft and is immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, critical hits and flanking.
The Avatar of Water gains Great Flood(Su), Once per encounter, the Avatar of Water may unleash a massive flood as a full round action. The Avatar can produce a 20ft burst of water centered on himself. Creatures struck by the burst of water are struck by a bull rush attack with a strength bonus equal to the Avatar of Water's Wisdom modifier and a size of Colossal. Creatures are pushed back as far as the check allows. For every additional full round action spent concentrating on this ability(to a maximum of 1 round per 4 cleric level of the Avatar of Water), the radius of the effect increases by another 20ft. Water created in this manner is real and remains after the Avatar of Water stops concentrating.


Fire Domain
Fire, Light of Life, All Destroyer

Initiate Fire Resistance The Initate of Fire gains resist fire 5. This improves to resist fire 10 for an Acolyte of Fire, 15 for a Deacon of Fire, 20 for a Bishop of Fire, 25 for an Archimandrite of Fire and 30 for an Avatar of Fire.

Acolyte Voice of Fire The Acolyte of Fire has command over the powers of Fire. He can bolster, rebuke and command creatures with the [Fire] subtype as an evil cleric bolsters undead. He can also turn or destroy creatures with the [Water] subtype as a good cleric turns undead. This counts as a use of Turn Undead or Bolster Undead, and is improved by feats and abilities that affect those abilities.

Deacon Body of the Inferno The Deacon of Fire's melee attacks deal an additional 2d8 fire damage. Creatures hitting the Deacon of Fire with natural weapons or unarmed attacks also recieve this damage, creatures hitting the Deacon of Fire deal the damage to their weapon instead.
Those damaged by Body of the Inferno must make a Reflex save(DC 10+1/2 cleric level+wis) or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The flame deals 2d8 damage per round to a burning creature or object. The Deacon of Fire can suppress or resume this ability as a free action once per round.

Bishop Blaze The Bishop of Fire can produce a burst of flame. At will, as a standard action he can create a 30ft radius burst of fire within 100ft+10ft per cleric level. The fire deals 1d8 fire damage per 3 cleric levels and sets creatures and objects on fire. Affected creatures and objects burn for 1d4 rounds. A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The flame deals 1d8 damage per 3 cleric levels per round to a burning creature or object. A reflex save(DC 10+1/2 cleric level+wis) halves the damage and the creature does not catch on fire.

Archimandrite All-Consuming Flame The Archimandrite of Fire substitutes any energy damage(cold, electricity, acid, sonic) dealt by his spells with fire damage. Fire damage dealt by the Archimandrite of Fire ignores fire resistance, hardness and immunity. Creatures that are normally immune to fire instead recieve half damage from fire, while creatures that are vulnerable to fire recieve double damage instead of the normal effects of fire vulnerbility. The Archimandrite of Fire can suppress or resume this ability as a free action once per round.

Avatar Soul on Fire The Avatar of Fire is transformed into an elemental being of Fire. His type becomes Elemental(Fire, Native) and he gains the Augmented subtype for his previous creature type, he retains any other subtypes he possesses. Hit Dice, BAB, skills and saves are not recalculated. Unlike other elementals the Avatar can be raised and resurrected if he could normally be raised and resurrected. He gains Darkvision out to 60ft and is immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, critical hits and flanking.
Burning Spirit The Avatar of Fire is a shard of elemental fire in this world. In a 20ft radius around the Avatar of Fire, the environment gains the Fire Dominant trait, unprotected creatures and objects take 3d10 points of fire damage every round. Creatures made of water recieve double damage. The Avatar of Fire is immune to the damage from this effect. Fire spells cast in this area are Empowered as per the metamagic feat.
The Avatar of Fire can suppress or resume this ability as a free action once per round.


Animal Domain
Beast within, Beast without

Initate Beast Sense The Initate of Animal gains Knowledge(nature) as a class skill. He also gains the Scent and Low Light Vision special abilities if he does not already have them. An Initate of Animal who already has Scent doubles the range of his Scent ability.

Acolyte Voice of BeastsAnimal Friend The Deacon of Animal gains an animal companion(see the druid class feature), with an effective druid level equal to his cleric level. This is typically an animal favored by the Deacon of Animal's divine patron. The Deacon of Animal cannot change the type of animal chosen, if his animal companion is slain, it is replaced by another of the same species by his deity when he next prays for his spells.

Bishop Form of the Beast The Bishop of Animal gains the ability to partially take the form of an animal at will as a swift action. He gains a +3 enhancement bonus to natural armor, a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and one of the following natural attacks: a bite(2d8 slashing /x3), 2 claws(1d8 slashing 19-20/x2) or a gore/slam attack (2d10 bludgeoning /x2). At Archimadrite of Animal, this improves to a +4 enhancement bonusto natural armor, a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and Form of the Beast grants one of the following: an additional natural attack(chosen from the above), a fly speed equal to the Archimandrite's land speed at average manueverbility, a swim speed equal to the Archimandrite's land speed or a +30ft bonus to the Archimandrite's land speed.
An Avatar of Animal improves this to a +5 enhancement bonusto natural armor, a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength, and Form of the Beast grants one of the following: an additional natural attack(chosen from the above), a +30ft bonus to a movement mode granted by the Archimandrite improvement, a +30ft bonus to the Avatar's land speed that stacks with any other speed increases granted by Form of the Beast or a movement mode granted by the Archimandrite of Animal's improvement.
These benefits only apply when shapeshifted into the Form of the Beast. The player must choose the improvement when he becomes an Archimandrite or Avatar of Animal. This choice cannot be changed until he gains a level.

Archimandrite Beast Soul Call The Archimandrite of Animal can use Summon Nature's Ally IX as a standard action once per encounter, but can only summon animals with this ability.(this means he must use the option to summon multiple lower level creatures, as there are no animals on the list for level 9)

Avatar Inner Beast The Avatar of Animal can unleash the inner beast, for better or for worse. As a full round action once per encounter, the Avatar of Animal can activate a 30ft radius transformative effect. He can share the benefit of his Form of the Beast with any number of willing creatures within this area. Unwilling creatures must instead make a Fort save(DC 10+1/2 cleric level+Wis) or be transformed into a harmless animal(the exact form depends on the Avatar's patron deity). Both effects last 1 round per cleric level of the Avatar and do not end when the subject leave the area of the effect.
[/spoiler]
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1455 on: December 29, 2008, 03:20:27 PM »
Turn or bolster?
When does this become Destroy or Rebuke undead? Same as phb2?
Needs to be spelled out. Hmm... turning could always have been worded better.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1456 on: December 29, 2008, 04:23:01 PM »
I'm assuming he's using the mechanic I posted on the first page of the Combat & Rules thread (also found in the compendium).
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1457 on: December 29, 2008, 05:29:53 PM »
By the way Veekie, all in all I like it. 

I'm still not sure if I want to put the time into redoing the cleric's entire spell list.  Each time I start, I get a bit overwhelmed, and it still has a lot of holes.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1458 on: December 29, 2008, 11:46:04 PM »
I'm assuming he's using the mechanic I posted on the first page of the Combat & Rules thread (also found in the compendium).

Yep, figured I might as well integrate that, seeing as the whole turning thing is more or less settled. And yeah, ouch on the spell list, doing half the SRD domains so far is fun, but I shudder to think what happens when I hit the more inane domains.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1459 on: December 30, 2008, 09:12:54 AM »
I think a lot of the specifics might not be included in this project.  There are so many domains out there.  So many PrCs. 

I think the best approach is to hit core and include some of the more popular non-core stuff.  After that, other DMs can follow by example, or we can always expand this by request.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]