D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Elennsar]

Kuro: In order to learn how to be a fully fledged knight, you had to spend, not counting being a page, from your early teens to 18-21 training. Intensively.

This isn't exactly "you can learn in six weeks or less." either, thusly. So while mooks (minions, whatever) might still go for six weeks and come out a Warrior (NPC class), those who want to learn how to be -good- at fighting are going to discover that swords and armor are not offering any significant advantages.

[ZeroSum]

Plus, I think we've got a good skeleton to work off of to achieve the goal here.  It's now just dependent on making Fighter feats that worth taking.  Basically we need more tactical feats.

[Elennsar]

Yeah. Not just "I use a sword" or "I use a sword and shield", but various...stances, I suppose you could call them.

For instance, some fighters (whether sword-and-board, TWF, THF, whatever) will focus on defense. Some on speed. Some on...

Yeah. Overall, a fight should be a match between two skilled opponents, a challenge of technique and tactics as well as weapons and muscle.

Personally, one reason I have for wanting to make magic less important/powerful is that when magic is there to be able to end fights, the possibilities of interesting and cool fighters matching up like that fade.

This isn't just about balance. It needs to be fun to play a fighter, fun to judge "do I want to fight defensively and lure him into a sense of complacency, or attack fiercely and throw him off balance, or..."

D&D doesn't do that. It could be made able to, but core doesn't do that.

[Shadowhowler]

Reinforce the alignment restriction. Mastery of martial arts isn't as simple as "I punch a rock, whoohoo, I'm DA MAN", it takes years of discipline and control. In the world you propose, not everyone would be a monk because, simply put, it takes MUCH LESS TIME to teach someone to stab people in the gut than it takes to teach them to punch effectively - martial arts is NOT for everyone. In a world where the monk is on par with sword and armor guys, everyone is ENCOURAGED to be a monk... at least until they realize how strict the life of a monk really is.

 
 
This is a myth. Don't get me wrong... I have respect for the eastern martial arts. I studied Kempo/Kung-Fu/Judo for 6 years and contenued to practice for 10 years after... tho I am out of step and out of shape these days.
 
However... a lot of people are under the (incorect) impression that while eastern martial arts are complicated and diffcult to master, western combat styles were strightforward and simple, easy to master. It's just not so. A true knight trained in the arts of combat as a small boy until manhood. There were many disciplens to master and it was by NO means simple.
 
To Compare... a Knight and a Eastern Martial Artists likely studied for a similar amount of time... they just learned differant things. A Monk mastered unarmed and unarmoured combat, and weapons associated with his style. A Knight armoured and weapon and sheild combat, jousting, and then tactics and mounted combat, warcraft and so on.
 
Their skillsets were differant, and ment for differant things, but they BOTH spent a great deal of time learning those skills.
 
 
All that aside... D&D dosn't take the idea of 'It is more diffcult to master' into consideration really. In 2nd Eddition they did... in that nearly anyone could be a fighter, but only exceptional people could be Rangers, Paladins, Bards or whathaveyou, because of stat requirments. In 3.5 ANYONE can be a fighter, or a Paladin, Ranger, Bard, or a Monk.
 
So... in a world where anyone can be anything... if unarmed combat is the equal to armed combat... NO ONE would bother learning armed combat. Weapons can break or be taken... and they cost money and upkeep. However... your hands are always with you... and they cost nothing. Instead of training armies of knights you would train armies of Monks. It would cost a lot less to equip them, thats for sure.

[Midnight_v]

Oh, separate thought entirely: this has been about 4 1/2 pages of discussion of just the monk. I suspect that we're going to need a separate thread for all the classes. Unless someone has a brand spanking new monk build hidden up their sleeve that addresses a good number of concerns raised in the thread... then this is going to take a while and take up a lot of space.

Just sayin'.

So ... I went and started cotemplating the monk. I first went to the SRD. To get a feel for what the monk is "Currently" doing.  it... it was bad.
I then thought "Well people have to have made monk fixes cause its so bad. So I traveled then to the P.E.A.C.H. Garden. . . and i was sad  The monk builds there had little variancy (ie. it still sucked) or too much variance (i.e. better to just use the damn Sword sage.  Then finally I checked my subscrribed thread and saw Mister sinister had responded to the "What have we learned, thread"
 Which posted a link to Szatany's work... which I rember working on when he was on the boards *sad that he's gone*
For rebalancing I think we should take a good look at Szatany's Monk.
 
  For me it fits the standard of what I described earlier in the thread. Monks are people who internalize the magic in the universe until they become magic themselves. In Szatany's case he proposes this Idea as Ascendancy and Enlighetenment and there are many paths.
  Now I'm not suggesting we whole sale lift it, like (owa's paladine  ) but I do think thats the correct concept, on the right track and would be a desired inspiration/starting point.
[urkl=http://www.liquidmateria.info/wiki/Ultimate_Monk#Way_of_Shadows]Ultimate Monk by Szatany & Co[/url]

Let us discuss.
I'll start by saying that when I was looking at the monks capstone ability I decided that 20th level transformational abilities aren't bad, I'd suggested it earlier in the original thread for the blackguard (and I'm working on that one currently still) What I did think was that the "Perfect self" should be  Damage reduction 10/magic and something esle or damage reduction 10/-
 Primarily because well I looked and all the outsiders actually get that and the Dread necro does and so on. Further, the fact that at level 20 everyone already has magic weapons make it a moot point.
The second thing that occurs to me, and honestly it maybe that I just looked at the monk, is that I find the path system a bit complicated.
  This leads me to think that we should come up with ONE path to enlightenment, or that is to say we should select on set of consistent abilites that end at twentieth leve you become an Outsider.
  For comparative classes... I look ad the dread necro, (which intersperses the abilities thoughout the class) and the binder Prc, "Knight of the Sacred Seal" which grants "Apothesis" which is the perfect self class feature as early as 10th level.
Also the binder it self is an excellent class to review for comparasion sake as it actually produces several monk like builds (but better) which are illustrated in the Consolidated Binder handbook.

  For example binders gain list of flat bonuses to somethings that are changeable each day as well as a host of immunities that scale and that matter.... Immunity to Fear/Slipperymind/immunity to level drain/negative energy levels/and cluminating in "Mind Blank" at level 19. It bears mentioning that the binder is also on the tier 3 list which is about the power range we shuold be shooting for.

So I dont' know where that leads us too, exactly but here's my take on the new monk design.
Fluffwise- The monk may well be  the old sholin monks, or something else...However ultimately how that translates in D&D us that this is a person who is seeking a universal constant in an attempt to Transcend thier mortality... Gaining in power gradually until they are actually something more that human. The final stages would be transcendance or enlightenment.
  Mechanically, the character will be a skirmisher/disabler who gains the a suite of abilities/and immunities that suit him to the Job.
The ways in which he does this is by being an "action stealer" since D&D works on economy of action. Will give another effect similar to stunning fist, which requires a reflex save and does something requires a "REFLEX" save or render something "immobilized" rooted in place for one round.
 Also we add a few other things like a miss chance instead of an ac bonus at various levels and a scaling damage reduction at levels 4,8,12,16, culminating at 20. So you get better as you progess.
There's more but I'll leave it at that for now. . . I just want to bounce it off you.
Please discuss.

[Risada]

Also we add a few other things like a miss chance instead of an ac bonus at various levels and a scaling damage reduction at levels 4,8,12,16, culminating at 20. So you get better as you progess.
There's more but I'll leave it at that for now. . . I just want to bounce it off you.
Please discuss.

- Power of the Mind (Ex):at 5th level, the monk learns to channel his willpower through his body, increasing his fighting capabilities. Once per encounter as a move action, the monk can make a Concentration check (DC 15 + monk's class levels) to gain an enhancement bonus to his unarmed attacks equal to his AC bonus (so a 5th level Monk would have a +1 enhancement bonus on his attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks). At the start of each subsequent round as a free action, a monk may make another Concentration check at the same DC to maintain the effect.
--

My wording might be off, but I guess you guys get the idea...

Something like this?

[Midnight_v]

Also we add a few other things like a miss chance instead of an ac bonus at various levels and a scaling damage reduction at levels 4,8,12,16, culminating at 20. So you get better as you progess.
There's more but I'll leave it at that for now. . . I just want to bounce it off you.
Please discuss.

- Power of the Mind (Ex):at 5th level, the monk learns to channel his willpower through his body, increasing his fighting capabilities. Once per encounter as a move action, the monk can make a Concentration check (DC 15 + monk's class levels) to gain an enhancement bonus to his unarmed attacks equal to his AC bonus (so a 5th level Monk would have a +1 enhancement bonus on his attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks). At the start of each subsequent round as a free action, a monk may make another Concentration check at the same DC to maintain the effect.
--

My wording might be off, but I guess you guys get the idea...

Something like this?

Not...so much, actually.
The problems with that is that its a move action. Thats not an action worth taking in general remeber the monk isnt' supposed to be a big damage dealer any way. That would be more in line with tier 3... if we...
1. Made it a swift action.
2. Make it a modified level check. Level + wisdom,
3. Expand the options of what it does. add for ever 5 points in the roll you gain a +1 enhancement to your unarmed attack or may add an equivelent melee weapon special ability.
So if your check is 15 you can have +1 holy fists. This ability lasts a number of rounds equal to your constitution modifier and is usable once perday per point of wisdom bonus.

or... something like that. (if we were to use this...)

One thing that was bothering me is that people kept saying the monks didn't deserve to a good as the sword and fullplate guys, which is the antithesis of balancing. All classes deserve to be equally worth playing for separate mechanical and flavor reasons.

[Elennsar]

Midnight, you're misreading, at least misreading my posts.

Monks should not be, in a sense of "I can do damage, I can hit people, I can avoid being hit, and I can endure being hit.", equal to or superior to sword and board (or THF, or TWF)

The class on the whole should be equal to the Fighter class...not its combat abilities, however.

As to a level check...Concentration is a class skill. Level+Wisdom means a monk pays no price. At all. Besides, that skilll needs some uses for noncasters.

[Kuroimaken]

However... a lot of people are under the (incorect) impression that while eastern martial arts are complicated and diffcult to master, western combat styles were strightforward and simple, easy to master. It's just not so. A true knight trained in the arts of combat as a small boy until manhood. There were many disciplens to master and it was by NO means simple.

I never meant to imply that western combat styles were simpler to master. However, they ARE simpler in terms of what they can accomplish. Martial arts (particularly Chinese martial arts) derived part of their knowledge basis from medicine, which was much more advanced in the East than it was in the West up until around the 16th century - in other words, unarmed fighting was considerably deadly, among other things, because those guys KNEW they could seriously incapacitate someone by hitting a specific point in a specific way rather than taking a swing and dealing more "general" damage. Western combat styles also emphasized strength and stamina more than anything else, partially because armored targets were the norm. In other words, they made better tanks than their Eastern cousins. You could potentially differentiate them in terms of mobility and/or stamina, which is really more or less what should be - different combat styles, different approaches, but one is not necessarily better than the other.

Yeah. Not just "I use a sword" or "I use a sword and shield", but various...stances, I suppose you could call them.

Aye. People who think all THF fighters are supposed to do is bash people as hard as they can in the noggin should be bashed upside the head.  This isn't very easy to accomplish, however. It involves a study of stances as well as a need to equate the mechanics to the data discovered (in other words, a good knowledge of what said stances actually imply). Granted that as RPers we likely know a bit about that stuff, but it should still be noted.

[Elennsar]

Western medicine was poor. Western knowledge of anatomy, not necessarily.

Still, Western styles tend to be based on "My opponent is armored. Must counter.", Eastern styles tend to involve less armor...with all of what that means for boon and bane.

A link worth reading: http://www.tasteslikephoenix.com/articles/mart.html

The Tasteslikephoenix site in general is recommended, but due to it dealing with other games than d20, more for "look this over and see what they say" than "how they did this".

[Orion]

I think you all need to decide right now if your trying to represent the martial arts realistically/historically or cinematically/fantastically. If it's the first one, then martial artists are just fighters with fluff. If it's the second one, then stop arguing over the finer points of history and use movies/comics as your guide.

[Elennsar]

The problem with using movies/comics as a guide is that they often (though not always) do ludicriously implausible stuff.

I like a good Wuxia fight scene almost as much as any true martial arts geek (I'm a history geek too dominantly to say "any other").

But having "mountain shattering katanas" and such bother me.

Fantasy elements, even things entirely unlike our world, are one thing. But steel is steel and gravity is gravity.

Personally, thusly, I would rather have the fighting be more or less like any other fighter (different approach, same level of stuff) and have monks have mystical abilities that may or may not help them in a fight, but which are tied to chi and what chi can do (which is reputedly quite a lot).

On a scale of 1-10, if 1 is "brutally realistic" and 10 is Star Wars, I would press hard for a 4-5 and be willing to settle for a up to 7. Anything below that (4-5) is entirely the wrong genre, anything above 7 is in the range of shouting "This. Is. FANTASY!" and totally ignoring how things really work because some lifeless geeks have to overcompensate.

Thus, mostly realistic, if larger than life, strong elements of Seriously Fantastic (in both the sense of amazing and as in fantasy) stuff.

I'm not sure if anyone else shares this. But that's the level I'm working on trying to get right, because "a dragon" should be a serious test of anyone's skill...not something to be taken lightly at any level mortals can reach. (For those who want to play demigods, that's fine, but the 1-20 level range should not be that high.)

The day that "we have to make it so that characters can beat anything they want to, eventually, because otherwise it's no fun" becomes the definition of a good game is the day I'm going to join the cult of rpg burning.

[Midnight_v]

Midnight, you're misreading, at least misreading my posts.

Monks should not be, in a sense of "I can do damage, I can hit people, I can avoid being hit, and I can endure being hit.", equal to or superior to sword and board (or THF, or TWF)

The class on the whole should be equal to the Fighter class...not its combat abilities, however.

As to a level check...Concentration is a class skill. Level+Wisdom means a monk pays no price. At all. Besides, that skilll needs some uses for noncasters.

No... I don't think I am cause overall I stopped listening to your "non mechanical" opinions on the last page. I'm willing to discuss with you though any mechanical change, which is hard honestly because on the one hand, your opinion in general about the monk pisses me off, but I don't want that to interfere with any mechanical anyalsis you might be able to add or discuss.  I mean, I don't agree with you on something, doesnt' mean I don't respect your work or ability to design. Calls it into question... but doesn't x you out entirely. So I'm just moving on.

Okay, about the skill check idea.
1. I dont' like that Idea. I was working on someons suggestion to make it more palatable. Move actions are out for a skirmisher.

2. No one pays a cost for thier abilities really, with the exception of the Dimond mind school. In general I dont' think anyone should. Further, the price you pay as a skill would be negligable as monks get good skills, anyway.

3. Lastly, I suggested a modified level check, because the skill system for our rebalancing hasn't been determined. One of the big things that I've become aware of here and there is skill check abuse. Its really easy to ramp up any skill check to absurd levels. So since it hasn't been scaled back yet... I'm hesitant to referance that as a requsite for anything.

4. Ultimately, after rethinking is somewhat, I think it shuold be a modified level check of: Monk level +wisdom +1d20
but I admit I've been doing some heavy comparisons to the problems with other classes as a model to fix anything we add to the monk. Even that level check would be flexible at this point because I'm just gathering information on various abilities that might fit.

[RabidPirateMan]

I came late to this monk party- sorry.  I know, nothing was getting done without me, and you're all glad I'm back.  I'll accept flowers and chocolates later.

So here are just some thoughts:

The monk suffers from MAD- it needs good Str, Dex, Con, Wis, and alright Int since it has such a good skill list.  Lets trim this down.  Monks also have good Saves; its probably the Monk's best class feature.  Lets make them reliant more on Dex, Con and Wis, and less on Int and Str.

I think Monks represent a sort of Vow of Poverty Light- they don't need to spend money on armor or weapons (theoretically), so they spend it more on stat boosting items and the like. 

That being said, here are my old fixes to the monk.  They take the skeleton given in the PhB and rework the numbers.  I tried to look at is as more of a mechanic deal than a fluff thing (and I whole heartedly support we all do this, since fluff is one reason 3.5 is imbalanced).

[spoiler]SR needs to scale and do better.  30 SR is laughable at 20, and 23 is laughable at 13.  Probably should get it at Level 3, 5, 7 or 8, since these levels are considered dumb dumb dumb.  I'd do it two ways: SR equal to 10+Monk level+Wis or Con modifier, or an instant "force field" equal to a Concentration Check (why do they have concentration as a class skill and nothing to use it on?) usable some number of times per day.  Each way has a stacking bonus, and is still easily bypassed by using no SR spells.

Attack options need to be better.  For some reason, the Monk has fast movement AND flurry of misses- why?  One denotes skirmishing and one denotes standing still...  The monk has a bunch of exotic light weapons that give bonuses to disarm... when having a light weapon means you get penalties to disarming...  which makes sense...  Anyway, to fix this:  Monks are suggested in the PhB to take Spring Attack, which is a basically useless feat for them.  The point was that they could move in, Stun/Trip/Disarm, then spring back if it didn't work, or stay and flurry a bunch of pitiful attacks.  Easy to change up:  Exotic monk weapons suffer no penalties for being light weapons for the purpose of tripping and disarming, and Stunning Fist attempts aren't burned if you miss or if they make the save (I was also thinking of changing the feat to add Str to the DC, and having Wis being a monk bonus to the DC- make it better for fighters to take, since they wont have as much MAD for wanting to be a brawler).  At level 4, Monks get a +1 bonus to Tripping, Disarming and Stunning, and +1 more every 4 levels.  Eh, basically a +5 bonus, but that's a size category +1.  Since Monks will be walking around with Enlarge Person potions, I'm thinking it would help a bit.

Grappling sucks because DDoor and Teleport are Verbal only, and the Monk needs two checks to pin their mouths shut (unless they are a CHOKER!).  Even so, Ring of Freedom of Movement negates this entirely.  I dunno how to fix this...  Grappling is confusing to me because I am stupid.

Monks AC sucks.  +4 at level 20 is a joke.  Double the bonuses over the levels:  Monks get AC bonuses at 3 and one more every two levels.  +9 AC isn't that bad, is it?

Clarify that Monk's Fists are capable of using TWF.  And get rid of this "Oh but I can make ten billion attacks with multiattack because jackie chan uses his hair as a weapon and I can too lol."  Clarification is nice:  How many US attacks does a monk get?

+6 skill points.  Reduce MAD:  A monk already needs Str, Dex, Con and Wis- don't add Int into the mix.  Either that or a scaling bonus to 'acrobatic' skills like Balance, Jump, Swim, etc equal to Monk Level/2 (like we ever need those checks to be that high.  I know the Ninja gets less of a bonus, but he'll come next- we cant fix the Monk/Rogue class until we fix the Monk).

Monk weapons should scale along side Unarmed Strike for damage, but not as much- there should be a reason to PAUWNCH someone in the face.  Scale it off the original damage dice and size it up equal to Monk level -4?  Heck, flurrying Shurikens might actually be useful then!

Speaking of clarification, make it so Monk's fists can be enchanted or allow them to use Gauntlets with their US damage.  Big thing right thar.

DDoor.  Make it 1+Dex mod per day, ala Jaunter.

[/spoiler]

Also, even though this really should go to the feat thread, Stunning Fist is so tied to the monk that its basically a class feature.  I'll add my fix here, changes in bold-

[spoiler]Stunning Fist
Prerequisites

Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6.StrIf the defender makes his save, you do not use up one of your daily attempts, bitch. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every three levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.

Special

A monk may select Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every three levels she has in classes other than monk.  In addition, a monk adds his Wis modifier to the DC.  Shit, go stun something.

A fighter may select Stunning Fist as one of his fighter bonus feats. [/spoiler]

[Elennsar]

If you're only reading my mechanical arguements and ignoring the rest, you're missing what they're founded upon and what I'd like the crunch to reflect. So please don't ignore them. Disagree with them all you like, but know what they are.

My opinion of the monk is being misread.

I don't personally like it very much (I'm not against it, but I'm not fond of it)...but I don't want it removed except because A) it doesn't fit all that well fluffwise (which can be adjusted and should be) and B) I don't want to try balancing an antibuffer. B in particular is a "I'm not fond of numbercrunching", it has nothing to do with monks as opposed to clerics, say.

So please, read what I actually think, not a distorted version thereof.

1) Not against it using less time to do. Just that it should be something where a skilled monk can pull it off and an unskilled monk can't. "Level+Wisdom" defeats the purpose of "DC 15 + level"

2) See above.

3) Well, since none of this is set in stone, that's not really a good reason to say no. If you feel it needs to be adjusted to be better bonus/modifier wise, then we should work on making it like that at the same time we work on classes.

4) Let me make sure I read this right. Level+Wisdom modifier+1d20 plus the results of the d20 (rolled to determine success)? I'm confused.

Monkey: Fluff has nothing to do with 3.5 being unbalanced. 3.5 is unbalanced because the designers are either A) stupid, or B) intentionally making it so. Good fluff and good game balance go together perfectly fine.

[Midnight_v]

If you're only reading my mechanical arguements and ignoring the rest, you're missing what they're founded upon and what I'd like the crunch to reflect. So please don't ignore them. Disagree with them all you like, but know what they are.

My opinion of the monk is being misread.

I don't personally like it very much (I'm not against it, but I'm not fond of it)...but I don't want it removed except because A) it doesn't fit all that well fluffwise (which can be adjusted and should be) and B) I don't want to try balancing an antibuffer. B in particular is a "I'm not fond of numbercrunching", it has nothing to do with monks as opposed to clerics, say.

So please, read what I actually think, not a distorted version thereof.

1) Not against it using less time to do. Just that it should be something where a skilled monk can pull it off and an unskilled monk can't. "Level+Wisdom" defeats the purpose of "DC 15 + level"

2) See above.

3) Well, since none of this is set in stone, that's not really a good reason to say no. If you feel it needs to be adjusted to be better bonus/modifier wise, then we should work on making it like that at the same time we work on classes.

4) Let me make sure I read this right. Level+Wisdom modifier+1d20 plus the results of the d20 (rolled to determine success)? I'm confused.

Monkey: Fluff has nothing to do with 3.5 being unbalanced. 3.5 is unbalanced because the designers are either A) stupid, or B) intentionally making it so. Good fluff and good game balance go together perfectly fine.

Okay... okay.
This is more dealable. Well first, I keep the fluff and crunch in separate pools in my mind as best as possible anyway.
so we're always gonna disagree there too but like sinister said we may simply have different meanings in our minds as to what that entails.

1. Hmm... thats why I tried to make it tied to you monk level, you monk level in my book being representative of you being "skilled as a monk" not having maxed out "skills in monk abilities" so I see where you're coming from at least.

2. Doing it that way eliminates the Idea that you'll get anything under + 3 bonus to your fists under the scaling methond and i'd like this power to come online at level 4-5 and be capped at 1 enhancment +1 ability per 5 levels of monk, I think. That way you're not getting screwed for not using swords and dont' have to buy that stupid item or multiclass to enchant you fists. Though again, I dont' know if I like the check idea anyway, better to just make it scale at different levels like Ki strike
 
Like so:

Lvl 4: Ki strike magic(as srd) + you gain a plus one enhancement bonus to your unarmed attacks.
Lvl 6: Ki strike ability: Your fists gain any melee weapon ablility with a cost of +1 (this ability mus be activated with a swift action.
Lvl:8 Ki strike Magic +2, you gain a + 2 enhancment bonus to your unarmed strike
Lvl:10 Ki Strike: Lawful
Lvl: 12 Ki strike: +2 special ability, as above except. You may gain a second special ability for melee weapons  to your unarmed strike totaling but not exceding +2. Example Elennsar the monk may  have enhanced his fists to be Flaming he can now add the Bane ability to his fists resulting in "Flaming/Giantbane" unarmed strikes. He may instead Trade out his ability to have flaming fists and instead take "Icy burst" a +2 enhancment and thus instead having the icy burst enhancment only.

Same for the damgae reduction that he gets at level 20 we spread it out over 20 levels
4: Dr/2
8: Dr/4
12:Dr/6
16:Dr/8
20: Dr/10 and omg you've reached enilighten ment your a freaking outsider now. "good luck!"

[Elennsar]

Skipping the disagreement and moving on to the mechanics.

1) Skilled at monk skills is part of "skilled at being a monk". Isn't it?

2) No it doesn't. Let's take a monk doing it at level 5. DC 20. Assuming he put max ranks in, and assuming Constitution 12...

+9. On an 11 or more he has +1 fists.

I don't get how he gets nothing under +3. Could you explain?

3) (Monk DR) I don't think monks should get damage reduction scaling by level.

Let me clarify that. I don't think "a monk" should. If you study the Way of the Unyielding Mountain, sure. But not as a default monk ability.

Perfect self does need to be rewritten (its too weak as is), definately.

I like the idea that you could gain a different enhancement than just "an additional +1" though. I'd limit it to things that make sense given monk training and attitudes, though. Flaming fists seems a bit off. Giantbane, not necessarily.

But personally, I'd say if you want to enhance your unarmed strike (more or less permanently), buy a pair of gloves (or bracers) and price it based on a single weapon. So if you want to wind up with an unarmed strike of +5 flaming giantbane, its pretty much the same as if you want a greatsword of that.

[Midnight_v]

Skipping the disagreement and moving on to the mechanics.

1) Skilled at monk skills is part of "skilled at being a monk". Isn't it?

2) No it doesn't. Let's take a monk doing it at level 5. DC 20. Assuming he put max ranks in, and assuming Constitution 12...

+9. On an 11 or more he has +1 fists.

I don't get how he gets nothing under +3. Could you explain?

3) (Monk DR) I don't think monks should get damage reduction scaling by level.

Let me clarify that. I don't think "a monk" should. If you study the Way of the Unyielding Mountain, sure. But not as a default monk ability.

Perfect self does need to be rewritten (its too weak as is), definately.

I like the idea that you could gain a different enhancement than just "an additional +1" though. I'd limit it to things that make sense given monk training and attitudes, though. Flaming fists seems a bit off. Giantbane, not necessarily.

But personally, I'd say if you want to enhance your unarmed strike (more or less permanently), buy a pair of gloves (or bracers) and price it based on a single weapon. So if you want to wind up with an unarmed strike of +5 flaming giantbane, its pretty much the same as if you want a greatsword of that.

We have another set of problems you and I. See the other thread.
1. No. Well it relative really based on how you want to set the definiiton, I dont' want to discuss semantics though. A higher level monk can also be considered a more skilled monk. That's sinking into something I dont' wish to discuss with you.
2. Okay, I'm just trying to prevent someone from having a + 10 item of concentration using it to get much more powerful an enhancement. Than they could buy with WBL*shrug* Skills need to be fixed first and thats not something I personally am ready to tackle yet and since its in another thread somewhere. I choose not to use it much.
If the check is you gain a +1 enhancment for evey 5 points in your check and we use Dc 15 + xx yeah minumum enchantment will be +3
Frankly, you're the one who said you dont' like number crunching scaling is better for the flow of the game.
3. Okay, look, about "what you think" I'm not going off What I Think/feel/say in a dream, thats coming from comparing class abilities of the monk to other class ablities of other classes that "Transform" at level 20.
I'm working on making the monk~transcendenc/enlightenment~oh shit I'm an outsider thing worth a damn. It doesn't fit with the other classes that all of a sudden you get an ability spontanously from no where like that.
I'm specifically comparing that to dread necro .... dry lich... Knight of the Sacred seal... and elemental savant...
So I am going to re-write PerfectSelf ,You're right about that one.
So yeah... I'm not opinoning that one, I'm doing a comparative analysis.

It funny the 2 things are 1. The generic Monk, (since were not using the "I practice this style" like how I wanted to get rid of the monk and use SS instead at first. ) the generic monk has to be able to represent all the monks. We could make it a choice/ damage reduction or miss chance. but utlimately there's already a class that is a wizard doing that and several others so it actually fits... as you grow into your special abilities and don't get them sponaneously...
We could make it be a scaling miss chance though...  but then still begs the question of:
"what about perfectselfs" dr 10/worthless at level 20.
end.

[Elennsar]

1) It's not discussing semantics. Skills exist for a reason. A monk should not wind up regarding them as irrelevant (nor should anyone else)

2) It's limited to the amount his boost to AC provides him, so getting +9,0001 to Concentration won't help.

I don't like number crunching for one thing: D&D bonuses go from "small" to "large" to "whoa. How the hell did he get that high a bonus?"  So I dislike figuring out how to calculate DCs and penalties, because while -6 might be crippling at level 1, its an inconvenience at level 15. That needs to be fixed. Sure, characters get better as they gain levels, but it would be good to keep things a bit more modest.

3) It doesn't fit for a monk to get DR. Perfect Self should represent the evolution of a monk's abilities, yes. But what makes sense for a monk to get should be considered when giving it abilities, of whatever sort.

4) To be entirely honest, I'd like to drop Perfect Self. Have an equally useful to what it should be ability, yes.

But if you want to achieve Enlightenment, that should be between you and the cosmos, not class linked at all.

[Midnight_v]

1) It's not discussing semantics. Skills exist for a reason. A monk should not wind up regarding them as irrelevant (nor should anyone else)

2) It's limited to the amount his boost to AC provides him, so getting +9,0001 to Concentration won't help.

I don't like number crunching for one thing: D&D bonuses go from "small" to "large" to "whoa. How the hell did he get that high a bonus?"  So I dislike figuring out how to calculate DCs and penalties, because while -6 might be crippling at level 1, its an inconvenience at level 15. That needs to be fixed. Sure, characters get better as they gain levels, but it would be good to keep things a bit more modest.

3) It doesn't fit for a monk to get DR. Perfect Self should represent the evolution of a monk's abilities, yes. But what makes sense for a monk to get should be considered when giving it abilities, of whatever sort.

4) To be entirely honest, I'd like to drop Perfect Self. Have an equally useful to what it should be ability, yes.

But if you want to achieve Enlightenment, that should be between you and the cosmos, not class linked at all.

We have different ideas regarding the monk. What the monk is, what it should do, perfect self being "dropped", unarmed strike working at all.
We should talk about something else most likely, Elennar. To me you just did a major contradicting of yourself also.

But if you want to achieve Enlightenment, that should be between you and the cosmos, not class linked at all.

vs. in response to me saying we should ignore fluff and work on mechanics.

If you're only reading my mechanical arguements and ignoring the rest, you're missing what they're founded upon and what I'd like the crunch to reflect.

Bravo.

So we have some options here.
 Agree to disagree. Move on to something else.
Stop talking entirely, because while on some level your probabbly completly rational, the way in which you disagree with me, lend to the thought that you maybe simply talking out of your ass so to speak and don't like the monk and have no concept of what a man folling the "Way towards" enigtenment is about anyway, or just hate the idea of the the man with no weapons and battle kimono, beating the hell out of a dragon, because he's becoming something much more than human. Or what ever.
 In anycase you and I aren't getting anywhere. I choose to move on.
But its your call. I don't want to discuss this with you anymore anytime soon, maybe not anything at all... were you the person disagreeing with me about dwarven paladins too? I think you were...
You and I aren't rebalancing to the same point.
Move on or let us decline further discussion.