Going up against gods - kind of

[sombrastewart]

Are you sure it's in the MM? I can't seem to find it under Monster Feats and Skills. It's not on crystalkeep either.

Sorry, for some reason I thought it was MM.  It's a feat that went a long, long way for the epic level warlock my brother asked me to make for him.  I really like the class.

[Endarire]

Alter Reality ASAP!  It's like wish at will without the XP cost!

[DavidWL]

Oops, you are right about the book list - my bad.

About the feat - I mean that you can change race to a changeling at 2nd level (for example), without losing the bonus feat of the human.

Also, you can see the progression for free online for the Chameleon, although you are right that I was mistaken about the source (google's cache of the link):
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pO85ESmiKEYJ:www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/iw/20041210b%26page%3D1+chameleon+dnd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Best,
David

[Agita]

Alter Reality ASAP!  It's like wish at will without the XP cost!

Yes, I think we already established that. The question is how to get it as early as possible. Since MM III is allowed, changing race to a Petal (+8 Cha) might work.

Oops, you are right about the book list - my bad.

About the feat - I mean that you can change race to a changeling at 2nd level (for example), without losing the bonus feat of the human.

Also, you can see the progression for free online for the Chameleon, although you are right that I was mistaken about the source (google's cache of the link):
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pO85ESmiKEYJ:www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/iw/20041210b%26page%3D1+chameleon+dnd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Best,
David

Sadly the DM isn't allowing anything he doesn't have in book form. He didn't allow Hellfire warlock (my initial idea) either.
I don't think you'd keep your feat if you change race, but I'll ask about that.

EDIT: Just got the reply. You do keep the feat, as well as any bonus skill points earned until that point, so that's pretty cool. You do lose any future bonus skill points and favored class (any).

[carnivore]

you might consider changing race to Succubus... they get +16 to Cha and only have +6 LA(with 6 HD) .... thus with these stats... you can get Alter Reality a little before 12th lvl(10th lvl probably)... and they already have a Savage Species Racial Class Progression to work with.. IIRC, you get at least +4 Cha right away


AT 12th lvl... including attribute boosts every 4 levels:

12 Str(10 +2 racial)
19 Dex(14 +2 racial +3 lvls)
16 Con(14 +2 racial)
20 Int(14 +6 racial)
14 Wis(10 +4 racial)
32 Cha(16 +16 racial)

@12th lvl you will be:
Rank 2 ... thus 3 Salient Abilities [spoiler]A deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has, plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: Demigods receive one bonus ability, lesser deities receive two bonus abilities, intermediate deities receive three, and greater deities receive five.[/spoiler] ... i would suggest these:

 
@3rd lvl:
Know Secrets
Extra Sense Enhancement(Vision)

@10th lvl:
Alter Reality


Irresistible Blows is another i would suggest @ 15th lvl


 

[Agita]

you might consider changing race to Succubus... they get +16 to Cha and only have +6 LA(with 6 HD) .... thus with these stats... you can get Alter Reality a little before 12th lvl(10th lvl probably)... and they already have a Savage Species Racial Class Progression to work with.. IIRC, you get at least +4 Cha right away

+2 Dex, +6 Cha, actually. It's an interesting idea, but the massive LA+HD make me squirm. >_<

@12th lvl you will be:
Rank 2 ... thus 3 Salient Abilities [spoiler]A deity has one salient divine ability for each divine rank the deity has, plus additional salient divine abilities reflecting its status: Demigods receive one bonus ability, lesser deities receive two bonus abilities, intermediate deities receive three, and greater deities receive five.[/spoiler] ... i would suggest these:

 
@3rd lvl:
Know Secrets
Extra Sense Enhancement(Vision)

@10th lvl:
Alter Reality

DM Rule 0'd the bonus salients, so we only get exactly 1 per rank. Also, we'd get our first one at 5th, not 3rd, but that's a minor issue.

[skydragonknight]

Being 6 hit dice behind means being a divine rank behind at all times even if you grind the xp. And being a divine rank behind means a lot more of their abilities work on you than yours work on them.

[Agita]

Being 6 hit dice behind means being a divine rank behind at all times even if you grind the xp. And being a divine rank behind means a lot more of their abilities work on you than yours work on them.

As mentioned in the OP, you still get your Divine Ranks at the normal ECL, even with LA. I mentioned it only in passing, so you may have missed it. I actually hoped for that not to be true initially (as the DM previewed a few NPCs with insane LA and I was hoping for an easy Dominate on one of them).

[carnivore]

ok... still Succubus also get some nice Spell-like abilities(At will - charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only).)... also they get :Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft., tongues .....and fly 50 ft. (average), +9 Natural Armor, 2 Claw attacks(1d6+Str),Change Shape (Su): A succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.

still once you get Alter Reality before everyone else... you can really do a lot.... combined with Know Secrets+At Will Charm Monster+ huge Cha.... and any other Salient Ability that requires 29+Cha... you will get first

 

[Agita]

ok... still Succubus also get some nice Spell-like abilities(At will - charm monster (DC 22), detect good, detect thoughts (DC 20), ethereal jaunt (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), suggestion (DC 21), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only).)... also they get :Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, telepathy 100 ft., tongues .....and fly 50 ft. (average), +9 Natural Armor, 2 Claw attacks(1d6+Str),Change Shape (Su): A succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.

still once you get Alter Reality before everyone else... you can really do a lot.... combined with Know Secrets+At Will Charm Monster+ huge Cha.... and any other Salient Ability that requires 29+Cha... you will get first

 

The spell-likes are indeed nice, and ability to get Alter Reality at 10th is a huge plus. The DM might veto an ability that is essentially a better Wish at will without XP loss or material component, though. :-\ If that happens, I'm stuck with 6 or 7 d8 hit dice and without casting ability.
There's a bunch of other Salients that require Cha 29, and most Salients have Cha-based saves, but nothing quite as juicy as fricken' Alter Reality.

Right now, though, I should probably be worrying about my actual build, as the DM has announced that recruitment will be closed on friday.

[Endarire]

A venerable star elf gets +5 CHA with no LA.

[Ubernoob]

A venerable star elf gets +5 CHA with no LA.

Magic blooded?

[carnivore]

how soon can they get to Cha 29? .....

Magic blooded venerable star elf gets +7 CHA.... with starting Cha @ 16..... remember you get - 6 to Str, Dex, and -8 to Con...

starting @ 23 means you get 29 Cha @24th lvl... since there are no Magic Items... unless you make your own Tomes

 

[Ubernoob]

how soon can they get to Cha 29? .....

Magic blooded venerable star elf gets +7 CHA.... with starting Cha @ 16..... remember you get - 6 to Str, Dex, and -8 to Con...

starting @ 23 means you get 29 Cha @24th lvl... since there are no Magic Items... unless you make your own Tomes

 

Aye, but perhaps we template a wee bit to improve it?  Say, half fey and phrenic to move that forward to tenth level?  Only 4 LA and we still get charm at will as well as psilikes.

[Agita]

Sorry to shoot down another idea, but neither Star Elf nor Magic-Blooded are within the sources, IIRC, though you're welcome to prove me wrong. Further, it was specified that age categories are abolished, since all PCs are immortal anyway.
Phrenic would work, though. I forget where Half-Fey is atm.

[carnivore]

Feind Folio

Half-Fey

[carnivore]

what really can a 12th lvl character do that this cant ? ....

start as Human Ranger 1 ... before change to Succubus(Inccubus for Male version).... that way you have +1 BAB, good skills,saves,hp

you get:

Great movement:
Greater Teleport at Will
fly 50 ft. (average)...sucks.. but costs nothing
ethereal jaunt at will

great Defenses:
+9 Natural Armor
Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good
immunity to electricity and poison
resistance to acid 10, cold 10

great Detection:
darkvision 60 ft.
Mindsight... 100' from Telepathy 100', if you take the feat


great Skills... due to High abilities

 

[Ubernoob]

what really can a 12th lvl character do that this cant ? ....

Not die to spells, mostly.

[carnivore]

other alternatives if Alter reality not allowed:

BATTLESENSE
DIVINE BLAST
DIVINE EARTH MASTERY
DIVINE FIRE MASTERY
DIVINE SHIELD
GIFT OF LIFE
IRRESISTIBLE BLOWS
KNOW SECRETS
MIND OF THE BEAST
POSSESS MORTAL
POWER OF LUCK
SEE MAGIC
SUNDER AND DISJOIN


 

[carnivore]

Not die to spells, mostly.

well the character will have Good Attributes, Great AC, SR.... what spells are going to be a problem .... they will be just as much a problem for any other character, actually even Moreso