Author Topic: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2 (Read 22929 times)

lans · « **on:** February 26, 2011, 02:24:38 AM »

Now due to IP were all going to fucking die. Lets make that happen a little bit less.
AC needs to be high to matter all the time. Might not matter to all the monsters you face, but it should matter to some of them, expecally if your facing monsters that are below your level. Like 4 ogres at level 7.

Ways to get AC outside of norms is kind of nice.

If 1 character can Turtle for the entire party then ACs should be good.

Combat Expertise+Improved Expertise+Allied Defense+Shield Block gives your party an AC of your BAB + part of your shield bonus.

Saves
These should be high. Every body taking a level of mashal would do it if you all have good charisma.

Attacks
Also should be high. Buffer

Miss chances Lots of ways to get these. Learn to see in the dark.

Immunities
Sell your soul, worship the one who smites all.

Starting things at 1 am in a very bad fashion and hoping to get back to it later... We've all been their.

Class independent IPing
For classes that are T6&T5 these are as important, or even more important, as your class abilities.
Race
Warforged Gives various immunities.
Any non humanoid- Shuts down X Person spells
Dragonborn- Negates lack of flying, or gives some immunities.

Feats
Shape Soulmeld provides a lot of protections. Miss chances, damage reduction, resistances, immunity to compulsions, teleportation, walk on water. Not to mention bonuses to hit, damage, skills, AC, and saves.
If all feats were this good, the fighter would suck a little bit less.
Open X Chakra expands on the Shape Soulmeld option. If everybody takes Shape Soulmeld:Phase Cloak and Open Lesser Chakra and you can run away.

Bind Vestige, Improved:Full Plate+1, immunity to transformation, a debuff,
Practiced Binder: Infinite supply of scouts, see invisibility, water breathing.

Wild Cohort- Disposable meat shield.

Word Given Form-Not really a feat, but close enough.

Skills
Balance 5 ranks to not be sneak attacked while balancing
Skill Tricks
Healing Hands Heals d6
Shrouded Dance Concealment
Spot the Weak Point
Twisted Charge

Mundane items
Magic Items

lans · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2011, 02:25:38 AM »

Reserve

lans · « **Reply #2 on:** February 26, 2011, 02:26:47 AM »

Reserve, this should be enough if it isn't the person who posts after me had damn well be willing to have his post become part of the handbook

Andion Isurand · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2011, 04:13:34 AM »

Well, might as well start with some accessible stuff that many classes can use.
This stuff might be small, but at least its a place to start.

Quote from: lans on February 26, 2011, 02:24:38 AM

If 1 character can Turtle for the entire party then ACs should be good.

Combat Expertise+Improved Expertise+Allied Defense+Shield Block gives your party an AC of your BAB + part of your shield bonus.

If a "Tank/Turtle" using feats like these...

Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Expertise, Allied Defense (Shining South)
Shieldmate (Miniatures Handbook) and Improved Shieldmate

...doesn't have Tumble as a class skill...

I would use the Skilled City Dweller ACF to trade Ride for Tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) or get the Martial Study feat with a Desert Wind Manuver (Tome of Battle) for the purpose of giving this character Tumble as a class skill ...thus improving the bonus gained by Fighting Defensively as a standard action while using Combat Expertise (and the Aid Another action if their resulting attack bonus is too low to hit the enemy AC.)

The following chart is one that could be drawn between the values listed the PH and ELH (in bold) for the Tumble skill.
Defending All Out cannot be combined with Combat Expertise and is listed only for completeness.

| +02 | +03 | +03 | +04 | +04 | +05 | +05 | +06 | +06 | +07 | Dodge Bonus to AC for Fighting Defensively...
| +04 | +06 | +07 | +08 | +09 | +10 | +11 | +12 | +13 | +14 | Dodge Bonus to AC for Defending All Out... 
| 000 | 005 | 010 | 015 | 020 | 025 | 030 | 035 | 040 | 045 | ...from Ranks in Tumble

If a non-caster character often finds his or herself with an unspent move action (especially when also using the above standard action), I feel the Cloak Dance feat from Expanded Psionics Handbook is a decent way to make use of that action, thus gaining 20% non-magical concealment for the round (which also helps prevent sneak attacks). However, the skill rank requirements for the feat can be prohibitive unless you have a decent intelligence score and can easily put 10 ranks to Hide and 2 ranks to Perform (dance). Thankfully using this feat doesn't require a check... otherwise a heavily armored character would look silly trying to dance....

Using a Broadblade Shortsword (Complete Adventuerer) while fighting defensively and/or using Combat Expertise grants a character an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC.

The Shield and Pike Style feat from Dragon Magazine 338 lets a character use a piercing polearm with reach along with a (spiked) shield. Especially useful if the character has three or more levels as a Knight.

Thaalud Stone Armor is worth listing, especially if used with many of the heavy armor feats listed in Races of Stone.

Andion Isurand · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2011, 08:22:49 AM »

An easy thing most characters can do is use Charcater Traits to improve their weaker saves.

Hardy = +1 Fortitude saves & -1 Reflex saves
Passionate = +1 Fortitude saves & -1 Will Saves

Detached = +1 Will saves & -1 Reflex saves
Plucky = +1 Will saves & -1 Fortitude saves

Nervous* = +1 Reflex saves & -1 Will Saves
Delicate* = +1 Reflex saves & -1 Fortitude saves

*From Legends of the Twins

//////////////////////////////////////////

Also, lans... You may want to put a link to Sunic's definition of IP Proofing in the opening post. Look for it in his sig.

SeekingKnight · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:20:19 PM »

Trait are horrible to IP proof because you are trading one bonus for a negative, defeats the whole purpose. As for turtleing "Oh look they are all clumped together." *Casts Kelgore's Grave Mist, Casts Cloudkill, Casts Solid Fog, Casts some nuke spell.* "Ohh look a dead clump of 'adventurers'."

veekie · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:26:39 PM »

Traits can be worthwhile if you're getting a more vital save higher than a less though. Just put the penalty in a too high save or to finish dumping your worst.

SeekingKnight · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:30:47 PM »

But then you have a bad save or made your best save worse. So smartly played baddies can capitalize on this. Where if you had a proper IP proof then you would not have to worry about baddies getting the upper hand.

Gods_Trick · « **Reply #8 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:32:16 PM »

I'm surprised Turtle'ing is an option. Sounds like the 'pass the AC' requires a feat chain that only Fighters and their ilk will have the feats to do, and using a Sword & Board (for the shield bonus) takes away the Fighters best contribution. Am I missing something?

Andion Isurand · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:41:03 PM »

If you are converting your attack bonus into AC, then the chances of you hitting enemies is reduced anyway, hence the shield.

As far as traits go, I'm just saying any character can do it without effort if they want.

Sunic_Flames · « **Reply #10 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:43:29 PM »

Quote from: Gods_Trick on February 26, 2011, 03:32:16 PM

I'm surprised Turtle'ing is an option. Sounds like the 'pass the AC' requires a feat chain that only Fighters and their ilk will have the feats to do, and using a Sword & Board (for the shield bonus) takes away the Fighters best contribution. Am I missing something?

Well, he said this was the Fail class guide. So perhaps that is intentional.

SeekingKnight · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:49:58 PM »

Quote from: Sunic_Flames on February 26, 2011, 03:43:29 PM

Well, he said this was the Fail class guide. So perhaps that is intentional.

LOL +1 Sunic. Turtle is only an option in Amtgard when sword and board matter. In D&D a tanglefoot bag will mess up a turtle so the baddies walk around the gimp to slaughter the squishies.

lans · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2011, 03:56:43 PM »

@ above A tangle foot bag doesn't do jack shit to the shared defense build, unless the other people have to run or move away.
Area affects are the problem.
@ Sunic To a degree yes, but mostly I didn't want to redo the thread you closed.
Making bad classes work is more fun than just dominating the game.

Quote from: Gods_Trick on February 26, 2011, 03:32:16 PM

I'm surprised Turtle'ing is an option. Sounds like the 'pass the AC' requires a feat chain that only Fighters and their ilk will have the feats to do, and using a Sword & Board (for the shield bonus) takes away the Fighters best contribution. Am I missing something?

Its 2 feats to get and give the bonus, and another to go for the entire attack bonus. So its pretty doable.

As for the Sword and Board I was thinking Net and Board, and if you do attack you double hand the shield and do a shield slam.

Quote from: SeekingKnight on February 26, 2011, 03:20:19 PM

As for turtleing "Oh look they are all clumped together." *Casts Kelgore's Grave Mist, Casts Cloudkill, Casts Solid Fog, Casts some nuke spell.* "Ohh look a dead clump of 'adventurers'."

Those are highesh level spells, and if you can't get out of solid fog you fail at life. Its not a real strategy vs spell casters, but as far as brutes and rays go your golden.

These defenses work out a bit like the traits, this protects you against attack rolls, but weakens you to area effects.

SeekingKnight · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2011, 04:45:58 PM »

Shared defense. Do you mean Magic Circle against something? See if I was dm and I saw a clump of characters following one guy with a shield it would be aoe plus control. Btw Kelgores Grave Mist is at most 3rd level so low level games can have it.

lans · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2011, 05:28:54 PM »

Quote from: SeekingKnight on February 26, 2011, 04:45:58 PM

Shared defense. Do you mean Magic Circle against something? See if I was dm and I saw a clump of characters following one guy with a shield it would be aoe plus control. Btw Kelgores Grave Mist is at most 3rd level so low level games can have it.

I'm not familer with it, but Magic Circle would be an example of this, as would Marshal abilities.

What book is Kelgore's Grave Mist from?

bearsarebrown · « **Reply #15 on:** February 26, 2011, 06:49:26 PM »

I'm really confused as to whether this topic is a joke or not. If someone wants to make this concept into a real Handbook it would probably be a good idea to split it up. Have a Saves Handbook, AC Handbook, Immunities Handbook...

SeekingKnight · « **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2011, 06:57:09 PM »

I have a feeling this is not ment to be a real handbook in which case delete it. Kelgore's Grave Mist in in PHB2.

wotmaniac · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2011, 07:27:30 PM »

Quote from: bearsarebrown on February 26, 2011, 06:49:26 PM

I'm really confused as to whether this topic is a joke or not. If someone wants to make this concept into a real Handbook it would probably be a good idea to split it up. Have a Saves Handbook, AC Handbook, Immunities Handbook...

I think the idea was to consolidate all those. sure, you can have a thread about saves, and one about AC, etc.; but then you have a bunch of disjointed threads ..... consolidation is oriented towards a "total character" concept.

once again, I submit this as a fine example of IP Proofing.

lans · « **Reply #18 on:** February 26, 2011, 08:22:55 PM »

Quote from: SeekingKnight on February 26, 2011, 06:57:09 PM

I have a feeling this is not ment to be a real handbook in which case delete it. Kelgore's Grave Mist in in PHB2.

To be honest I had hope that Sunic would redo his thread or somebody else would take it over, so I decided to cover lower Tier classes that I thought he would brush over.

Then I decided to add team work, which is the primary differance between the tiers. A cleric can cover it all, lower tiers need everybody to cover each other a little bit.

veekie · « **Reply #19 on:** February 26, 2011, 08:35:00 PM »

A good plan really, higher Tier classes take much less effort than low.

News:

Author Topic: The Fail class guide to IP. Proofing For Classes below Tier 2 (Read 22929 times)