Modified Two-Weapon Fighting

[RobbyPants]

I was thinking about two-weapon fighting, and how it's really only worth while for someone with a serious boost to per-attack damage.  Another thing I hate about it is that it's both very feat intensive and it really doesn't keep up with the standard damage of someone just using a greatsword.  So, it ends up being useless to characters that aren't rogues, or occasionally rangers, and it's almost too good for rogues*.  I wanted to change that.

* This is subjective, but I wanted to tone down the overall power, but make it more consistent.  I understand I'll have to take things like charging into account as well, later on.


Fighting with Two Weapons

Anyone can fight with a weapon in each hand, although this is difficult for someone to do without special training.  A character with a weapon in each hand may opt to make a special flurry attack as a full-round action.  The flurry works as follows:

• You may make a number of attacks with each weapon as allowed by your base attack bonus.  For example: if you have a BAB of +6, you may make a total of four attacks between the two weapons; a +6 and +1 attack with your primary weapon and a +6 and +1 attack with your secondary weapon.
• You only add half your Strength modifier to damage on your off-hand weapon.
• You do not apply precision damage (such as Sneak Attack) to these attacks, although they can score critical hits as normal.  These attacks are made too quickly to be that precise.
  
• You take a -2 penalty to all attack rolls during the flurry until the beginning of your next turn if your off-hand weapon is light.  If it is not light, you take a -4 penalty on all attack rolls instead.

Two-Weapon Fighting [GENERAL]
You are more skilled at fighting with two weapons.
Prerequisite: Dex 15+
Benefit: This feat gives you three options, one of which you chose at the start of your turn:
Two-weapon defense: If you forgo all off-hand attacks this round, you gain a +1 shield bonus to AC if your off-hand weapon is light, or a +2 bonus if it is not light.
Flurry: You may make a flurry attack as described in Fighting with Two Weapons, except the penalties to your attack rolls are reduced by 2.  So fighting with a light weapon in your off-hand has no penalties, and fighting with a weapon in your off-hand that is not light only adds a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
Feint: If you forgo all off-hand attacks this round, you may use a special feint option as a swift action.  This may be used against a single foe that you threaten in melee with your off-hand weapon.  You roll a Bluff check and add your base attack bonus.  This is opposed by your opponent's Spot check with his base attack bonus added.  If your check succeeds, your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC against all of your primary-hand weapons this round.


Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting [GENERAL]
You have learned to fight with a one-handed weapon in each hand.
Prerequisite: Dex 15+, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you do not take an additional penalty if your off-hand weapon is not light when making a flurry attack.  You also add your full Strength modifier to damage with your off-hand weapon if it is not light.


So, what are your thoughts?  Obviously, other things like charging will need to be taken into account with this, but I think it makes the tactic more attractive to fighters and barbarians, and it makes it far less feat intensive.  The feint option allows rogues to Sneak Attack more often, but not allowing precision damage on a flurry roughly halves their SA damage otherwise.  Personally, I favor this constancy over binary awesome/suck based on the conditions.  It also makes a solo rogue more viable, and makes swashbuckler fencer-types more viable.

Did I miss anything crazy?  Any unexpected nerfs or buffs?  I haven't put much thought into Multi-Weapon Fighting yet.

[Sohala]

Weapon chants play any part in Two-weapon defense?

I don't know how I like a flawed character being able to take all TWF feats at level 1, heck even a first level human fighter could do it. Some BAB requirement might fit to spread them out some.

[RobbyPants]

How much of a problem is that, though?  If you take a straight-forward fighter or barbarian, they're really not gaining much, and they're spending a feat to do it.

For example: the level 1 fighter takes TWF and uses a longsword and a short sword.  This lets him deal 1d8 + 1d6 + 1.5 Str mod for damage.  Without that feat, he could simply use a greatsword to deal 2d6 + 1.5 Str mod, so he's gaining one point of damage on average for a feat.  This feat also lets him simply deal 1d8 + Str mod and gain a +1 shield bonus to AC.  The feinting approach could be nice, especially against fast opponents, but it's not a big part of a typical fighter's strategy.

Even if he takes a second feat for Oversized TWF, he's still not going to crazy town with damage.  Granted, it jumps to 2d8 + 2x Str mod, but, even with a Str of 18, we're looking at a 4 point increase on average from greatsword guy for the cost of two feats.

I personally don't find this unbalancing, and I like the idea of the character being able to realize his schtick right from first level, assuming it's not overpowered.

[archangel.arcanis]

I'll start with the complaints:

1.it doesn't fix the damage issue in my mind. You will still deal pitiful amounts of damage but have more feats to boost it a little.

2. Damage reduction still destroys you. This has always been the biggest problem i've had with TWF because the DR applies twice as much and it is significantly harder to blow through it than it is for a THF.

3. Your still burning money. You still have to burn through twice as much money to keep up your weapons to an appropriate level. This takes away from your funds for other useful items.

4. You still are a glass cannon. Due to spending all of your money and feats making TWF viable you now have no shield, likely light armor, and no money to upgrade them. Congrats you have just donated some shiny new knives to the ogre's kids.

now for some Compliments and suggestions:
I love the simplification of the feat tree. Spending 3+ feats just to be proficient at swinging a few extra times was stupid. I also like taking the tactical approach to the feats as well.

1. Give TWF feat the TW Pounce ability (PHB2). Basically it is a standard action to attack with both weapons.

2. Make a counter part for Oversized TWF for light weapons that would allow for Dex to damage instead of half str. That way it balances out some and gives both a feat worth investing in to increase damage. Also require higher Dex for this feat and add a minimum str to Oversized.

3. Allow the defense ability to scale up with BaB likely + the number of attacks given up. This would be in addition to the bonus granted by the weapon (+1 or 2 depending on size).

4. Add TW Defense as a higher level feat the ability to basically grant any weapon you wield in your off hand the Defending property as well as some other defensive options.

5. Add TW Assault as a higher level feat to add some offensive options that would be based on the character level/abilities. I'm thinking something like Two as One Swing both weapons together in order to deal more damage on a singe swing (deal base damage for both weapons but add the appropriate ability modifier once and treat as 1 hit for weapon enhancements only add from 1 weapon [prevent damage stacking too high]) This would allow for penetrating DR but likely won't be as good as swinging with both weapons on an opponent who doesn't have DR causing a problem. Obviously some more options for this feat as well.

[Sohala]

I am not seeing anything overly wrong about it, but my first thought was that Oversized was missing a BAB requirement, which is probably just from looking at the actual feats to much.

[RobbyPants]

You make a good point about DR and money.  I'm not sure how to handle those really.  The shield thing could partially be solved by allowing your off-hand weapon's enhancement bonus to hit count toward your shield bonus to AC when using Two-Weapon Defense.  So, if you're holding a +2 Longsword in your primary-hand and a +2 short sword in your off-hand, you'd gain a +3 shield bonus to AC (+1 for a light weapon, +2 for the enhancement bonus).  Personally, I don't see it as overpowered because you're paying double for that bonus anyway (in that weapon enhancements cost twice that of armor enhancements).  It's sort of like a free Defending property.  Sort of.

TW Pounce is a nice suggestion.  I might just add that in to the basic TWF combat section, and not the feat itself.  So you can either flurry (full round) or attack once with each as a standard action.  Good call.  Perhaps you can add precision damage on the standard attack.  That makes sense to me and it isn't too crazy.

BAB scaling could work too, but might not be so necessary if you use the enhancement bonus I suggested above.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[RobbyPants]

I am not seeing anything overly wrong about it, but my first thought was that Oversized was missing a BAB requirement, which is probably just from looking at the actual feats to much.

I don't have Complete Adventurer handy.  Does the original feat have a BAB prereq?  I can see it having a +1 BAB prereq (but no higher), although I can't for the life of me picture a less-than-full BAB class taking Oversized TWF in the first place.

[Sohala]

I am not seeing anything overly wrong about it, but my first thought was that Oversized was missing a BAB requirement, which is probably just from looking at the actual feats to much.

I don't have Complete Adventurer handy.  Does the original feat have a BAB prereq?  I can see it having a +1 BAB prereq (but no higher), although I can't for the life of me picture a less-than-full BAB class taking Oversized TWF in the first place.

Nah, it does not (had to look), but I was more meaning TWF feats in general.

[archangel.arcanis]

crazy thought for dealing with the DR and money issues. Probably too powerful but i'll lay it out there for consideration.

light version:
treat both weapons as having the same properties for the purposes of DR. One is +1 Holy adamantine while the other is +1 axiomatic cold iron. Both are treated as Magic, Adamantine, Cold Iron, Good, & Lawful for checking damage reduction. This would give them a good chance to ignore most damage reduction but is limited enough that a smart DM can still get some creatures in there that it wouldn't apply to. DR/Epic still screws them though.

Power version:
The actually gain the properties of the other weapon. So in the above example they are both +1 Holy Axiomatic Adamantine Cold Iron weapons. with the bonus damage from Holy and Axiomatic on both. This would cut down on the additional costs of maintaining 2 weapons but can get brutal if you stack enough bonuses.

If you use the enhancement bonus you talked about for the defense it should help to limit the power of version 2 i presented as people wouldn't be as motivate to get a +1 with +9 of xyz weapon just to add the bonuses to their primary hand.

[RobbyPants]

Nah, it does not (had to look), but I was more meaning TWF feats in general.

Which ones?  Like TWF Defense?

Because really, this just wraps TWF, Improved TWF, Greater TWF and TW Defense into one feat and adds the feint option.  And you can't use them all together.

[Sohala]

Improved and Greater both do carry BAB requirement.

[archangel.arcanis]

those requirements are useless as far as how he worded it. The original feats basically gave you an extra attack at a penalty while his version just states you get your normal number of attacks with both hands.

The requirements were exactly the minimum BaB that would be needed to use the feat and not gain more attacks than you should have at that level. +6 & +11 Those limitations are already built in under this.

[Sohala]

Yes this is true, but he did ask which TWF feats I was looking at that had BAB requirements, not saying that the feats need one, but my first thought was there should be.

[archangel.arcanis]

[RobbyPants]

Yes this is true, but he did ask which TWF feats I was looking at that had BAB requirements, not saying that the feats need one, but my first thought was there should be.

Well, it doesn't matter, because you won't get a second off-hand attack until your BAB is +6, and you won't get a 3rd until your BAB is +11.  It's basically built right into the flurry mechanic.


Dang archangel, I've got some reading to do.  Just skimming the first few, a lot of those feats seem underpowered to begin with, and these changes would weaken them more.  Still, they could be useful for idea-mining.

[archangel.arcanis]

I would like to see each combat style be a distinct choice that ends up being equal rather than THF dominating the game. So between this and BHU's grapple revision i'm pretty interested and will hopefully be happy with the results. I'm just trying to provide the support and suggestions to help develop them the way they should have been.

[RobbyPants]

Sure.  Although, personally, I wouldn't mind reducing some of the rocket-tagishness of THF and toning down the overall power of casters instead.  Not that I think that THF holds a candle to casters, but it contributes to the whole initiative contest aspect of combat.

[archangel.arcanis]

I think only certain high end builds are really all that rocket tagish, uber chargers and the like. I actually like the power level that a decently built THF sits at, i think some monsters are just too squishy.

[RobbyPants]

I'm actually wondering if I want to keep Oversized TWF as a separate feat or not.

These changes are a mixed blessing for a rogue.  They reduce their potential damage, but make Sneak Attack damage more consistent in general.  For fighter/barbarian types, they're an improvement compared to the normal TWF rules, but they're roughly on par with THF.  TWF still suffers the problems archangel mentioned of DR and weapon costs.

If I wrap Oversized TWF in with TWF in general, you end up with the ability to do somewhat more damage than THF, but nothing really crazy.  Really, at 1st level, you're looking at something like 2d8 + 2x Str compared to 2d6 + 1.5x Str.  A dwarf treats waraxes as martial weapons and could increase this to 2d10, but that's still not crazy town or anything.  It's potent at low levels, but it tapers off quickly.  When you're looking at 10th level characters, so much of their damage is going to come from Power Attack that I don't think these changes will make a huge difference.

I know wrapping the two feats together is adding a lot to one feat, but when I look at everything you get by using a two-handed weapon, I'm having trouble finding another way.  Any thoughts?

[archangel.arcanis]

i think folding it in would make the original TWF feat too powerful. How about adding a bit more to the oversized feat and the potential dex based counter part? What do you think about this revision & addition?

Oversized TWF: Req. str 15 & dex 15, TWF, BaB +3
When fighting with a weapon in each hand, you do not take an additional penalty if your off-hand weapon is not light when making a flurry attack.  You also add your full Strength modifier to damage with your off-hand weapon if it is not light. In addition you may use power attack with either or both of your weapons, if you could normally use power attack with that weapon. (this is to prevent people from using this feat to power attack with odd weapons that shouldn't have that ability)

Nimble TWF: Req: Dex 19, TWF, BaB +2
When fighting with a weapon in each hand and both are light weapons you may add your full dexterity modifier to your damage in place of your strength modifier for both weapons. You may also apply precision damage to both weapons, if your attack would otherwise meet the requirements for dealing the precision damage. If the precision damage is represented by additional dice then you only get to apply half the number of dice, rounded down, per strike.

I think allowing SA with the dex based version should be fine but the limitation on number of dice should keep it from being all that crazy. It is all but guaranteed that if they are going for that one that they will have weapon finesse to be a 1 stat character, but that is all dex based melee characters. Also i put in the BaB requirements to delay the entry for them. The oversized will almost always be used by a full bab class while nimble will be delayed until after they have at least 2 SA dice. I am a bit concerned that Nimble will over shadow the Oversized one though since it only needs 1 stat and gains extra damage without taking a penalty to attack. Maybe allow them to use up to full SA dice but take a -1 to attack per die added? It won't fix stacking other precision damage on there but by the time you can get much of that most things are immune to it anyway.