Replacing Core Classes

[JaronK]

So, there've been other threads like this but I like thinking about it.  Imagine if you could replace the core classes with the same number of classes, but balanced.  If you were going to do so, how would you do it?  The goal is not just balance... you should also be able to make similar character types.  Here's my new list, along with what they replace:

Ranger (add in Wild Shape Ranger variant, replaces Druid as well)
Factotum (Replaces Rogue and Wizard)
Swordsage (along with Unarmed variant, replaces Monk)
Crusader (Replaces Paladin and Cleric)
Warblade (Replaces Fighter and Barbarian)
Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warlock (Replace Sorcerer)
Bard (Stays in as a core class)
Binder (Added in as a new concept, sort of replaces Druid as a magical fighty jack of all trades type)

All of these should be reasonably balanced compared to each other.  Obviously, some of the replacements are much weaker than the originals (Factotum replacing Wizard, Crusader replacing Cleric, Wild Shape Ranger replacing Druid) and some are much stronger (Swordsage replacing Monk) but the overall effect should allow for very similar character concepts while adding some new ones.  There's also multiple options for everything... if you need a trapfinder, you can use Factotum or Beguiler.  If you need skillmonkeys in general, there's plenty of those.  Crusaders or Binders can be healers (Factotums sort of can as well).

Also, these classes are a lot more beginner friendly.  Gone are classes like the Fighter and Sorcerer where you can screw up the allocation of your class features early in your career and be relatively stuck with those choices.  Plus, other than a few things on the Factotum list and some advanced learning options, all the really broken spells are basically out.  Fun.  Anyway... thoughts?

JaronK

[Prime32]

Totemist replaces druid?

You know, it would be interesting to introduce some people to D&D with these classes, presenting them with the names of the Core ones. Then send them off to another group and see what happens.

Or heck, how many "CORE ONLY! NO ITEMS! FINAL DESTINATION!" types are fine with house rules so long they can be used as reach weapons? Just tell them that the warblade is a fighter, etc.

[RobbyPants]

All in all, it looks like you have a lot covered.  I was surprised to see no psychic warrior in there.  That and duskblade look like they could cover the basics of gish right out of the box.

It is a pretty cool concept.  Although, I feel a few things are missing enough that it might make people shy away.  For example, there's not much for healing right at 1st level.  Sure, the cursader can help in battle, and you can even cheese unlimited HP with it if the DM allows, but I don't feel it's quite the same.  The bard can heal pretty early on, but again, it changes the theme.  I guess people are going to have to look to the bard for their healing and buffing.

How would you feel about balancing a few classes toward this basic grouping to fill in some holes?  Would you be opposed to introducing in a cleric class that was balanced with these other classes?

[JaronK]

All in all, it looks like you have a lot covered.  I was surprised to see no psychic warrior in there.  That and duskblade look like they could cover the basics of gish right out of the box.

Honestly?  I just never play with psionics.  As for the Duskblade, I dunno, I really like the Binder.  But you do bring up a good point, there's no gishes right now.

It is a pretty cool concept.  Although, I feel a few things are missing enough that it might make people shy away.  For example, there's not much for healing right at 1st level.  Sure, the cursader can help in battle, and you can even cheese unlimited HP with it if the DM allows, but I don't feel it's quite the same.  The bard can heal pretty early on, but again, it changes the theme.  I guess people are going to have to look to the bard for their healing and buffing.

Yeah, early game healing you have the Crusader (amazing at it) and the Bard (not great).  Later on you get the Binder and Factotum able to do it.  Not perfect, but not terrible either, and at least healing isn't boring.

How would you feel about balancing a few classes toward this basic grouping to fill in some holes?  Would you be opposed to introducing in a cleric class that was balanced with these other classes?

Well, the idea was to pull this off without actually using real house rules... just pick existing classes and go.  Obviously you could house rule stuff too, but many DMs want to use printed material only and this allows that.

I think you might be right about needing a gish in there though.  Duskblade really does that nicely.  Right now there's only Binder.  And Totemist does make a lot of sense too.  If I were extending it to more than 11 classes, I'd probably add in all the suggested ones (Duskblade, Totemist, Psychic Warrior).

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

Really, I don't see much point to sticking with just 11 classes.  I see why you picked it (same number as the PHB), but you're already delving into the realm of needing half a dozen books to get your new "core" classes anyway.

I also see the point to doing this with no house rules.  It's actually a pretty good idea, all in all.  With the exception of Binder (I don't own ToM), I could pull all of these off myself.  I may have to sit around some time creating quick and dirty PCs just to see what you really can do at 1st level.  I don't mean from a class concept, but from an archetype concept.

For example: what would you do if you wanted a swashbucker?  Swordsage?  Factorum?  Bard?  I supposed it could be done, but I feel I'd have to work at it.

Also, another thing I noticed: why no barbarian?  Just figure you'd use a Tiger Claw warblade, or something?

[JaronK]

For example: what would you do if you wanted a swashbucker?  Swordsage?  Factorum?  Bard?  I supposed it could be done, but I feel I'd have to work at it.

Warblade.  Focus on Iron Heart and Diamond Mind.  Does it better than the actual Swashbuckler class in fact.  You might dip some Factotum in there too.  Warblades are perfect for this in fact... certainly better than any core class currently.

Also, another thing I noticed: why no barbarian?  Just figure you'd use a Tiger Claw warblade, or something?

Yup.  Right now Barbarians are basically just "CHARGE AND HIT" which is a little one dimensional.  Warblades can do all of it and more, especially with Tiger Claw.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

For example: what would you do if you wanted a swashbucker?  Swordsage?  Factorum?  Bard?  I supposed it could be done, but I feel I'd have to work at it.

Warblade.  Focus on Iron Heart and Diamond Mind.  Does it better than the actual Swashbuckler class in fact.  You might dip some Factotum in there too.  Warblades are perfect for this in fact... certainly better than any core class currently.

I'd actually thought warblade, too.  I know you're avoiding house rules, but I made a warblade ACF where you could trade medium armor proficiency for Canny Defense (+Int to AC when in light armor, capped at your class level).  There may have been one other thing that was swapped out too.  I don't remember.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I suppose you could reflavor dragonscale husk?

[JaronK]

Well, Warblades have already got Int to a variety of stuff.  They wear heavier armor than most duelists would want admittedly, but they still get the job done.  And you can do it with Factotum too.  It's not like you can really do duelist in the current core anyway.

JaronK

[JaronK]

Interestingly, I realize Factotums are effectively gishes as well, so really everything's covered by this list of 11.  Obviously if you wanted to expand it, simply making all T3-4 classes available would work, but I was trying to keep it to the same size.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

Have you gotten a chance to run a game using just these classes?

[JaronK]

Have you gotten a chance to run a game using just these classes?

Come to think of it, we did a recent game that almost did that.  Swordsage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Paladin of Tyranny.  The PoT was distinctly behind the rest, and probably would have been much better as a Crusader, but then again his Aura of Tyranny really helped with all the save or lose spells flying around.

JaronK