APG Demo Pt. 2: the Summoner and the Witch [Pathfinder]

[Akalsaris]

Here's the link, and here's the Paizo board discussion if you want to make fun of the people on that board (or discuss the classes with them, I suppose).

Basically, the summoner is a bard chasis that comes along with a customizable frontline fighter (think of astral constructs), and has a bard-progression spell list of BC/Summoning/Buff/Teleport spells, though almost all of the spells on the list are lowered in level so the summoner gets them at the same time as a wizard.  It also has Summon Monster at 3+Cha/day as a SLA as a standard action with mins/duration and affectable by Augment Summoning, which is what I think puts it over the top into a strong class.  It's probably a bit too strong from 1st-4th level, actually, though full casters should surpass it around 11th or so.  Like a 3.5 artificer or druid, be prepared for a ton of book work to optimize it fully: this class has all the summon monster spells, plus (greater/lesser) planar binding, plus its customizable eidolon.

The witch, meanwhile, is a prepared full arcane caster whose familiar is her spell-book, and every even level she gets a hex, which is similar to a warlock's invocation (so at-will but weaker than a spell generally).  It's a lot less interesting than the summoner in terms of mechanics, but has spell-casting with a lot of divine and arcane spells (including most of the healing-type spells at a staggered progression), so my gut tells me that it's about on par with the cleric or druid. 

[juton]

The first thing that strikes me about the Summoner (her pet actually) is why can't Fighter's do some of this stuff? A Summoner's pet is going to be strong, we're going to be hearing a lot that it's better than a Fighter, but I don't think that's true. What I do think is that the Summoner can use its pet, summon then start casting spells, with an intelligent player it's going to molest the action economy. Instant BBEG in a can.

I like the Witch, I've always wanted to get a spell list like that. Get ready to hear that it's game-breaking and stronger than a Wizard, although I don't think that'll bear out on inspection. Their hexes look interesting, I'm not sure how well they'll scale but they seem flavourful. Interestingly they've seemed to merge a Wizard's familiar and spell book into the Witches familiar.

On the whole of it, I like these classes. I'm worried they may be more powerful than they need to be. I think that depending on how many spells Witches get they could become tier 1, they might even be there because they do have a fairly nice spell list. Summoners will be interesting, they should only be played by people with good organization skills because they have a lot going on.

What's disappointing is that so far of the 4 new classes the 'Fighter' analogue is the weakest. They at least give it something like Celerity at level 15 (what do you want to bet the Paizils nerf it and nothing else?). Also, according to one of their editors they plan to give Bards more 'combat spells' in the APG, so I'm interested to see what they end up doing.

EDIT:Spelling

[juton]

I've been thinking, is it possible to get a Paizo style fighting class up to Tier 3, like the Cavalier class? Bo9S gives out a lot of interesting powers to it's Fighters, but Initiators are basically more stab oriented Sorcerers.

What are the essential things a class needs to do to be viable? I think with a few tweaks or feats a Cavalier easily can deal damage and take a few hits, but that's easy. The mount should be able to fly and be fairly resistant. Maybe give the mount early on the ability to move its speed as an immediate action, to get the Cavalier past things like walls of force as their being cast.

Anyone have any thoughts how to make a melee class viable without just copypasta Bo9S?

[Ivory Knight]

@Topic:
My first thought at reading the Summoner:
Nice, I can get my own personal Angel(Biped Eidolon with Wings, Martial Weapons, Armor and some SLA's)
On second thought:
Needs Healing, the Spells a Bard gets or maybe
a limited Lay on Hands(Eidolon only, possibly also an Evolution that lets the Eidolon use this Feature on the Summoner).
Just out of curiosity(may ask that over on Paizoboards later):
The text mentions a "transmogrify" spell, but I can't find the spell?
As a Summoner gets LBP/PB/GPB & Gate, could he use any of the aforementioned to call his Eidolon?

@ juton:
Putting Hippogriff, Griffon and eventually Dragon on the List of possible Mounts for the Cavalier sounds nice.
I remember a Full-BaB Prestigeclass, maybe from Dungeonscape, that got a "Monster(as opposed to Animal) Companion" in 10 Levels.

Damageoutput against the target of their Challenge should be ok, may need a Bonus to hit.
Weapon Training with Heavy Blades(or maybe Axes, Hammers, Flails one Group for each Order to make the choice matter), Shield Bash and Lances only,
to keep the Image of a classic Knight?

[winter_soldier]

I don't think it's viable to get the Cavalier up to Tier 3. A talented player will be able to do....ok with the class, but I think that's largely dependent on getting the drop on the enemy. They're also much more vulnerable against large groups, obviously.

[juton]

I don't think it's viable to get the Cavalier up to Tier 3. A talented player will be able to do....ok with the class, but I think that's largely dependent on getting the drop on the enemy. They're also much more vulnerable against large groups, obviously.

I'm just curious what is the minimum set of abilities necessary for a plain old Fighter type to be useful when not unable to stab things in the face, and still be able to kick ass and chew bubblegum.

Barbarians and Warblades can deliver the same types of damage, but what makes the Warblade better over all? They can use concentration for saves and IHS can conceivably get them out of any detrimental condition. If we gave those to the Barbarian would he be Tier 3, the equal of a Warlock or a Dread Necromancer?

[Akalsaris]

Depends on how you view tier 3.  If you mean "Can one beat the other in a 1v1 duel?" then no, the barbarian or cavalier isn't likely to beat the dread necro on most days.  But that's not really what JaronK meant by his tiers.

If you use it to mean "Can one competently fill his primary role in the party and do 1-2 other things decently?" then I think a barbarian needs some ways to keep from being sidelined by failed saving throws, much like the warblade, as well as ways of dealing large damage when it can't full attack (either from using PA+Charging feats in 3.5, or Vital Strike in PF) to hit T3.  In other words, an optimized barbarian is T3, but most players who don't pick their feats, PrC, and race particularly well will probably end up at T4.  Thankfully, barbarians are pretty easy to optimize.

For the Cavalier, I think it's probably T4 without some optimization.  The PF paladin is definitely T3, able to fill its role as a tank, and also work as a party face, backup party healer+status effects guy, and deal some solid damage with smite evil.  The Cavalier can also work as a tank and as a party face, but its buffing to the party is pretty minor, and its damage is probably behind a paladin smiting evil.  With the right order (Order of the Shield is terrific for tanking, Order of the Sword is a significant damage boost, Order of the Cockatrice can do the Inspire Movement of the marshal at will), and the right chain of feats, the cavalier can be T3.

If you wanted to make the class a baseline T3 (so with additional optimization you're effectively T3++, since T2 and T1 means you're breaking the game instead of just being better at what you do), I'd do the following things:
1. Increase mobility: As mentioned, the addition of some more mobile mounts to the animal companion list is a good idea.  Additionally, the cavalier should probably get the fighter's ability to move easily in med/heavy armor.
2. Increase the relevance of the cavalier's buffs so that the party actually cares.  For example, if every party member who hit the opponent in melee gained the cavalier's Challenge damage on attacks, that would probably boost the cavalier to one of the top buffers for most parties - it would be like having Dragonfire Inspiration from a bard.
3. Give it cha to saves like the paladin, to shore up its main weakness.

[Unbeliever]

I think Akalsaris' analysis is spot on. 

One thing, though, that makes the Crusader always seem more attractive than the Paladin to me (including the PF Paladin, though I haven't looked at it in a while) is that it can do its secondary healing thing w/out sacrificing its front-line combatant role all that much (i.e., they're all strikes).  I just think the healing should be "worth" it -- either being potent, affecting multiple targets, etc.  Conditional removal might count, though. 

I'd be pretty excited to play the sort of Cavalier he describes, and I think it's thematic, too.  I like the idea of giving the powerful boost to the targets he "marks" -- though you might even want to make it a higher bonus and only apply to 1 attack so that those w/ multiple attacks don't gain disproportionately from it.  Likewise, I might try to think of something other than the equivalent of Divine Grace -- maybe an Iron Heart Surge-like ability allowing the Cav to bounce conditions from himself or others 1+Cha times per day or some such -- but those are nitpicks.  I think the basic structure Akalsaris suggests creates an interesting, role/niche-fulfilling character.

+1 on the barb comments as well.