Supermount Info

[SixthDeclension]

Could we get a small repository of information on the Supermount? I've looked into it before, but due to not being able to go onto the wizards boards, I can't learn my stuff, which makes me a sad panda.

[Agita]

The basics are, I believe, 5 levels of Paladin to get access to a special mount, followed by a level of Beastmaster to get an Animal Companion. Then you take Devoted Tracker, which lets you designate your AC as your Special Mount, and go into Wild Plains Outrider. WPO allows you to add your WPO level to your effective Druid or Paladin level to determine the abilities of your Special Mount or Animal Companion... but thanks to Devoted Tracker they're one and the same, so the argument goes that it advances both. That's the basics of it, what comes afterwards really depends on the build. There's a build with Ashworm Dragoon and one with some PrC that gives you a Griffon. The most famous build is probably the Strongheart Halfling that takes Dragon Steed to ride a 27 HD Wyrmling Gold Dragon.

EDIT: More Halfling-specific, Halfling Outrider would seem to explicitly add its class level to your effective Paladin, Druid, and Ranger level.

[SixthDeclension]

So the Halfling Outrider would count twice towards the levels?

[Agita]

So the Halfling Outrider would count twice towards the levels?

I dunno. I guess it's one interpretation. Getting +20 to both Paladin and Druid level just from taking 10 levels in a class seems just good enough to not be true, though. Since even the WotC archives ar down, I can't confirm, unfortunately. Should've saved that thread when I looked it up two days ago...

[SixthDeclension]

Halfling Outrider class levels stack with Paladin, Druid, AND Ranger levels for determining the characteristics....

Emphasis mine.

It would seem to me like it is read that way, but I agree, it is too good to be true.

[SixthDeclension]

What about riding a Dinosaur. As effective?

[Agita]

What about riding a Dinosaur. As effective?

Don't see why not. The coolness factor remains, it's one less feat, and you can get all that pouncing Fleshraker goodness. AFAIK, the main appeal of a gold dragon is that the HD increase would be applied to its dragon HD, which are the best racial HD in the game (full BAB, all good saves, d12 HD, 6+Int skill points). It also gets access to Alternate Form and heaps of dragon-only feats, though, which is another bunch of H4XX.

[ninjarabbit]

I'll also add that bloodlines from Unearthed Arcana/SRD count as class levels when calculating any character ability based on his class levels so each bloodline level is +1 level for the mount and animal companion.

[Suzerain]

Don't see why not. The coolness factor remains, it's one less feat, and you can get all that pouncing Fleshraker goodness. AFAIK, the main appeal of a gold dragon is that the HD increase would be applied to its dragon HD, which are the best racial HD in the game (full BAB, all good saves, d12 HD, 6+Int skill points). It also gets access to Alternate Form and heaps of dragon-only feats, though, which is another bunch of H4XX.

Don't they get spells? That's a definite one-up over a fleshraker... dragons even get to pick from the cleric list.

[SixthDeclension]

Don't see why not. The coolness factor remains, it's one less feat, and you can get all that pouncing Fleshraker goodness. AFAIK, the main appeal of a gold dragon is that the HD increase would be applied to its dragon HD, which are the best racial HD in the game (full BAB, all good saves, d12 HD, 6+Int skill points). It also gets access to Alternate Form and heaps of dragon-only feats, though, which is another bunch of H4XX.

Don't they get spells? That's a definite one-up over a fleshraker... dragons even get to pick from the cleric list.

I'm fairly sure on no spells, because they do not increase in age categories, only HD. Therefore, not old enough to have spells.

[Suzerain]

Oh, right. Like medium animal companions don't grow large with added HD. Actually, I don't know where I got that from, Errata, Rules Compendium, or FAQ, but I'm pretty sure you're right. My apologies.

In my defense, he did say great wyrm gold dragon. I seem to remember the hospitaler's holy liberator's ability or somesuch was different on that point, though.

[Emy]

Disclaimer: there's only one 'supermount' type build I've looked at beyond a cursory glance, and it doesn't actually work.

So the Halfling Outrider would count twice towards the levels?

I dunno. I guess it's one interpretation. Getting +20 to both Paladin and Druid level just from taking 10 levels in a class seems just good enough to not be true, though. Since even the WotC archives ar down, I can't confirm, unfortunately. Should've saved that thread when I looked it up two days ago...

It doesn't get +20 to each. It gets enough to bump it up into the maximum range of the table. Here's Caelic's old example from the classic Supermount! thread:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071102193334/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=382372

Just for instance: A Strongheart Halfling Paladin5/Beastmaster2/Aglarondian Griffonrider1/Halfling Outrider 10/Cavalier2 with the Natural Bond feat winds up with an effective Druid level of 18 and an effective Paladin level of 17--guaranteeing maximum bonuses from both to his mount, which in this case is his griffon. This results in a Huge Griffon of 27+135 hit dice with Str36, Dex19, Con20, a BAB of +20, base saves of +15/+15/+9, nine feats, and all of the special powers possible for both an animal companion and mount.

Tsuyo's Ubermount build gets maxed Companion and Familiar and Special Mount, but requires Dragon magazine material.

What about riding a Dinosaur. As effective?

Don't see why not. The coolness factor remains, it's one less feat, and you can get all that pouncing Fleshraker goodness. AFAIK, the main appeal of a gold dragon is that the HD increase would be applied to its dragon HD, which are the best racial HD in the game (full BAB, all good saves, d12 HD, 6+Int skill points). It also gets access to Alternate Form and heaps of dragon-only feats, though, which is another bunch of H4XX.

I don't know if this would be effective at all, but the dragon could Alternate Form into a fleshraker, gaining its poison attacks and leaping pounce, if needed. (Venomfire ahoy.)

[Akalsaris]

For what it's worth, here's 2 Supermount! builds that I made.  The first was just to explore the idea myself, and the second was for an E6 game that I played.  The ACFs are very useful - one (Wary Swordknight) helps with survival ranks, while the spell-less paladin gives a free feat, and the planar paladin gives celestial mount for only 1 more paladin level.

Warning:

[Agita]

In my defense, he did say great wyrm gold dragon. I seem to remember the hospitaler's holy liberator's ability or somesuch was different on that point, though.

Really? I distinctly remember saying 'Wyrmling', not 'Great Wyrm'. It's a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.

The most famous build is probably the Strongheart Halfling that takes Dragon Steed to ride a 27 HD Wyrmling Gold Dragon.

[Suzerain]

Really? I distinctly remember saying 'Wyrmling', not 'Great Wyrm'. It's a subtle difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Um, I'm old, my eyes don't work like they used to? I was tired? Drunk? Yeah, I got nothin'. My bad.

[awaken DM golem]

Nice build.
iirc - a Bloodlines version of Supermount has never been done.
also sticking in one level of Faith Scion from the srd:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/legendaryWeapons.htm#theFaithScion
obviously a port of Weapons of Legend.

So fit in Bloodline X 3 / Faith Scion 1
and take out 4 levels of something
would add 6 levels to the base build value of Supermount,
and increase each class by +3.
It works, and makes the mount that much cheesier-ly better.
Might make a few more 1 level dips worth doing.

This isn't something I know much about, but it has given me a few ideas ... 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

The bloodlines version doesn't work. Its by table, not a calculation.

6th be careful. Since supermounts can get strong (considering they use no magic) and interpretation of what the text means becomes inconcise, particularly with dragon magazine material.

Thats probably why there is no handbook on it. The companion stuff was never really supposed to stack into one supercreature much stronger than a straight class could get.

[Emy]

Didymus:[spoiler]
6th char: Class Training (Paladin): Animal Mount (advances from 5-7 to 8-10)
[/spoiler]

From whence comes this feat? I've never heard of it.

[Prime32]

Didymus:[spoiler]
6th char: Class Training (Paladin): Animal Mount (advances from 5-7 to 8-10)
[/spoiler]

From whence comes this feat? I've never heard of it.

E6, I assume.

[JaronK]

Note that as per the errata, Bloodlines do not help animal companions.  It's annoying.  I made a build that used them a while back, but it's no longer legal.

JaronK