Truly optimizing the rainbow warmage

[skydragonknight]

feats needed:

Versatile Caster..... allows Warmage to cast 3rd lvl spells @ 4th lvl

The correct feat combination is Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell, because of this text:

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list

So you don't actually know any third level spells until level 6, but with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell you can cast a heightened 2nd level using two second level spell slots, and this will qualify as a third level spell by the specific wording of heighten spell.

[Anklebite]

also, the gnome has to wait 3 more levels before taking rainbow servant.... changing it from "awesome at lvl 11" to "awesome at lvl 14", with alot more games being 11+ than 14+.... all in all, the stoneblessed human goes into SCM as the same time as the gnome (even though the gnome is at that point three CL ahead, I would still like to point out how large a differance 3 levels make).

[carnivore]

actually the Gnome with Versatile Caster does not need Heighten Spell .... since he already Knows all levels of all the spells he could ever cast... and Versatile Caster allows one to cast spells of a higher level with Spell Slots from a lower level.... @4th lvl he can use 2 2nd lvl slots to cast a 3rd lvl spell....

 

[woodenbandman]

What about versatile caster + earth spell as a human with flaws? Versatile caster on 2 first level slots to cast a heightened first level spell which counts as a 3rd level spell thanks to earth spell. That takes Earth Sense, Earth Spell, heighten spell, and versatile caster, but you've got 3rd level spells at level 1.

[carnivore]

true... but that requires 2 more feats...

 

[carnivore]

true... but that requires 3 more feats...

 

[skydragonknight]

Let me repeat why you will be shot down with a very reasonable DM interpretation:

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list

When you gain access to a new level of spell(even levels starting at 4), Then you know all the spells on the list of that level. Not before. It's never mentioned once in the text that you know the spells before you can cast them.

Unless you consider Versatile Spellcaster as "gaining access to a new level of spells"...but the ability doesn't grant you the ability to cast higher level spells, it only allows you to pay an alternate cost to cast the spells you know...and as above you don't know the spells yet unless you're using some kind of circular logic.

[carnivore]

actually.... IIRC, the text also says they learn every spell they will Know @ 1st lvl when they enter the Class... is that right?

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm AFB, but wouldn't the Rainbow Servant cheese work better with a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer than a Warmage? The former at least gets Silent Image on their spell list, and the latter has the possibility of Tomb Tainted Soul.

[Chemus]

You have a point, but like the Warmage Handbook says, why not get out of warmage as early as you can?

[Anklebite]

actually, this idea was inspired by that hilarious warmage handbook.... I thought, "why take more than a single level dip in warmage?", and came up with a way to avoid taking those useless levels 2-20 of warmage. 

why not do it with a dread necromancer or a beguiler? because they have better things to do....  beguilers are going SCM asap, and dread necros are trying to optimize undead spamming.  taking a few levels of beguiler past the first can be a good thing, and all the cool dread necromancers are going up to level 8.... and besides, the early entry trick doesn't work if you are taking tomb-tainted soul (and who would play a dread necro without that feat?).  preferrably, the dread necro goes dread necromancer8, and thus doesn't need these early entry shenanigans... while the beguiler would prefer to gain early entry into SCM instead of rainbow servant (a beguiler without a level in SCM before 12-13?!?! inconceivable!)


since warmage is the only one of those classes with absolutly NOTHING better to do, it falls to him to take this path, so others may play real classes.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Let me repeat why you will be shot down with a very reasonable DM interpretation:

When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list

When you gain access to a new level of spell(even levels starting at 4), Then you know all the spells on the list of that level. Not before. It's never mentioned once in the text that you know the spells before you can cast them.

Unless you consider Versatile Spellcaster as "gaining access to a new level of spells"...but the ability doesn't grant you the ability to cast higher level spells, it only allows you to pay an alternate cost to cast the spells you know...and as above you don't know the spells yet unless you're using some kind of circular logic.

It's because heighten spell actually increases the level of the spell it modifies.  Since you are casting heightened acid arrow, you are casting a third level spell.  The game treats this as any other third level spell, since "All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level." 

Since you are able to cast at least one one spell of third level, obviously you have "access to spells of that level".  That triggers the class's learning ability, and you now know all warmage spells that have a normal level of third.

[Straw_Man]

  Slight derailment. Okay, Rainbow Warsnake is doable at level 2, so what do you start of at level 13 when your done RS and have gotten turn undead? I don't think MT can be qualified for, you don't have cleric casting; you have Warmage casting and two effects: access to cleric spells and cleric spells to fall under divine and not arcane.

  Dweomerkeeper is fun and blindingly powerful. Sovereign Speaker can load up on even more domains. I'd go with Prestige Bard and then to Sublime Chord. You now know all Wizard, Bard and Cleric spells known. Oh and you can sing. Rock on Rainbow Warsong

[BowenSilverclaw]

Didn't Sublime Chord have it's own casting instead of just progressing your old one?

If so, you'd need a theurgic PrC of sorts, but UM probably wouldn't do since both Warmage and Sublime Chord are spontaneous casters...

[Straw_Man]

  P.S. Is it okay to post this thread at the Warmage Handbook? More of an apology than permission actually, already did it and realised it may breach netiqutte. Cool with you Anklebite?

[Straw_Man]

Didn't Sublime Chord have it's own casting instead of just progressing your old one?

If so, you'd need a theurgic PrC of sorts, but UM probably wouldn't do since both Warmage and Sublime Chord are spontaneous casters...

  Yeah your right. I was thinking of the feat that lets you prepare spells, seemed cheap at the price, but I also thought that UM swapped spells known. Well lets see what we get as it stands without DMM.

  WM 1/RS 10/ Pres. Brd 1/ Sub. Chr. 1/ UM 8  =

  Level 1 Rainbow Warmage at caster level 22 (not sure about divine spells interaction with UM's arcane spellpower)
  And 7th level Sublime Chord which means all Bard spells and up to 8th level Wiz spells.
  Very feat strapped build, but very versatile, very sexy.
 

 

[BowenSilverclaw]

Aye, that would do it I think. Arcane Preparation I believe the feat was called

[Anklebite]

I can understand rainbow warmage not being able to double progress, but it very well should be able to count as a "divine casting class", as you can cast far more divine spells than you can cast arcane ones.... so a MT of warsnake+sublime chord should work, and then you don't lose the CLs from UM.... 

I like the dweomerkeeper idea though.... don't really feel that the build needs the sublime chord casting (although it is spiffy), as the CL will be REALLY low, since we only have _one_ level of a base casting class (and, by RAW, thats all sublime chord CL benefits from...), so improving our extremely versatile warmage+prestige bard+cleric spell list casting is probably more efficient. after all, a warmage will not be found lacking in spells/day...

how much benefit does the build really get out of dweomerkeeper? I am not too familiar with the PrC, but i keep hearing good things about it.


Ofc you can, Straw_man, as the guide is what inspired this thread.... Im just happy you find it worth adding 

EDIT: just looked up dweomerkeeper, and don't feel it is suited for the build.... have to dip contemplative and grab an item creation feat to make it work, and we won't even get the capstone pre-epic.  sublime MT is looking better...

[Straw_Man]

  Now thats an idea, I agree the Warsnake can count as a divine class, use SC and MT would work by Jove!    :evillaughWish MT didn't blow but its a good workhorse for this. Anyone done a cost-benefit analysis of spells by class to see if getting all three lists is significantly better than just Cleric? Wizards rock, worth SC by itself IMO; Clerics are strong by themselves though so maybe SC's just overkill?

  Cool thing is at the cost of more feats you could slip in DMM with SE though Persist wouldn't be choice. Definitely Quicken. Upon thinking further  we hit RS so quickly that starting with DN maybe very worth it.

[Anklebite]

true, it WOULD be probably be better with dread necro.... one level, same feats (no tomb-tainted soul though, so have to turn ourselves undead...necropolitan?)



anyways, its going a bit off topic...   so is the best build then warmage(or DN, whatever)1/RS10/sacred exsorcist1/SC1/MT7?  or should we have the SC level and then SE applying the extra CL to SC?  this way, we get 9th levels of both!

ninth level SC + ninth lvl rainbow warsnake = win?

EDIT:  best epic entry evar?  sure, you gotta finish three more levels of MT before you can take it epic for the bonus feats... but starting epic with this sort of casting with all of spellcraft, knowledge(arcana) and knowledge(religion) with awesome duo casting all keying off of CHA (epic SAD ftw?) would be kind of awesome....  do you get double the epic spells (since you have arcane and divine casting, AND ranks in both knowledges)?